Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame.

I gotta love you, Evangelical. You are giving me so much material for my comic strip MOTA!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

In my neck of the woods it often seemed like hotheads were always promoted and rarely were held accountable. When my son thinks back on the LC experience, he remembers one event at a church camp that stood out. One of the boys was being a pain while playing unsupervised basketball, so he made up a story, told his dad, and blamed my son. Dad shows up and strangled my son screaming at him.

Hothead never asked the other boys what was happening in the game. Hothead never cared to reconcile or moderate play, introducing his son back into the game. All the other church kids were just shocked that junior had successfully deceived his father. I was not at the camp, but I assume that hothead had to leave "the fellowship" in order to intervene ...

Nothing was really learned there about relationships. I found out months later. Hothead was close friends with the leading elder, so there was no available recourse, and I know how they think, "kids need to learn a lesson ..."

And the "lessons" they learned?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

The numbers may be comparable, I'm not sure--although I do think the number that leaves the LC is closer to 90%. I've seen FTTA grads snap and give up the whole thing, even to become atheists. And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

Do you actually believe that?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Do you actually believe that?

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

True enough. But how your children turn out is absolutely one of the tests for qualification and fitness for leadership - At the very least, being an elder or a deacon. This is where Witness Lee failed miserably, and this failure was known by brothers and sisters in the Far East going back to at least the 60s.

This is one of the main reasons I question those who say there was so much "blessing" in the Local Church of Witness Lee movement at any point in time. Yes, God can bless whomever he chooses to bless, regardless of their spirituality, holiness, knowledge, faithfulness, etc. God knows that I am living proof of this. However, individual blessing is a totally different matter than the blessing, much less approval, of an entire Christian movement.

Witness Lee, and now the Blended Brothers, demand that every Local Church member fully imbibe (swallow wholesale) everything that came out of Witness Lee's mouth. Everything the man ever said is to be taken as manna from heaven. As a matter of fact, Lee's words are to be taken as the ONLY manna from heaven. This would be a huge enough problem if Witness Lee was someone qualified in person, character, education and reputation to be a leader of an entire movement - the fact that he was unqualified in any of these aspects makes the whole situation very sad and very dangerous for his followers. May God have mercy.
-

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

Any shame when the manager of LSM gets caught with "interns."

Even our Prez took more heat than "The Office" for the same sins.

Perhaps the proponents of LSM on this forum will use the excuse that a ministry and its staff are not subject to the same standards as elders and churches. The apostle Paul, however, would differ. (II Cor 4.2)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

There are all kinds of material available to indoctrinate young people if your goal is to fill them with theology. Any church could to that and they wouldn't need Lee's ministry to do it.

What most leaders have figured out is that doesn't work. What works is helping kids have a love for God and others. Inundating them with theology can just give them a false sense of spirituality--as it has done with (ahem) some people we know.

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice may teach kids to mindlessly repeat things they don't even really believe to get crowd approval. Not very healthy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice ...

Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

You are talking about the difference between those who use their spirit and those who don't.

[least]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.
Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

No. That's only fmr. Just like licking the bbq sauce off the chicken.
Buy multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages, for afternoon revival, fnr, ...