Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[UntoHim]

When someone asks most people, perhaps even the majority of those outside of any Judeo-Christian context, or even those outside of any faith at all: "What would you consider as the 'one publication' of the Christian faith"? I would guarantee you that the vast majority would answer "Why, the Bible of course". But the rubber really only meets the road when one ventures a follow up question: "So you only use the Bible?....you have no other supporting or supplemental publications?"

Different, yet similar, answers will come forth from a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, a member of Christian Science, a Seventh Day Adventist, and finally a Roman Catholic (I'll stop the list here for the sake of brevity!) The follow up answer from the Mormon would quickly be "The Book of Mormon". The follow up answer from a Jehovah's Witness would be "The Watchtower and Awake!" The follow up answer from the Christian Science person would be "Science and Health". The follow up from the Seventh Day Adventist would be "The Pillars of Adventism". The answer from the Roman Catholic would be "The authority and traditions of the Church". (Interestingly enough, a similar answer would come forth from any orthordox Jew - "We hold the Talmud as equal to the Torah".)

Now let's ask any good brother or sister in The Local Church: "What is the one publication of the Local Church(es)?". After giving you a stern mini-lecture about how "the Local Church is NOT our name...it is only a description of how we meet!"...most will set off into a world-class tirade of obfuscation, evading and avoiding (aka shucking and jiving) and just a general denial that they they have any other "one publication" besides the Bible.

Why the obfuscation? Why the evading and avoiding? Why the denials of what is the manifest and undeniable fact? Why do they not proudly proclaim that they have another one publication besides the Bible - like the Mormons do? Like the Jehovah's Witnesses do? Like the Christian Scientists and Seventh Day Adventists do? Like the Roman Catholics do?

Well, the answer is obvious to even the most casual of objective observers. The Local Church of Witness Lee, at least in recent history, wants to be considered as "orthodox, evangelical Christians". They have even joined previously condemned and mocked organizations such as the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association. Ironically, if the Local Church/Living Stream had honestly presented their views, beliefs and understandings regarding the personal ministry of Witness Lee, they would have been soundly rejected for membership in the ECPA. Why? For the same reasons as the ECPA rejects the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics - They have another "one publication" besides the Holy Bible.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

When someone asks most people, perhaps even the majority of those outside of any Judeo-Christian context, or even those outside of any faith at all: "What would you consider as the 'one publication' of the Christian faith"? I would guarantee you that the vast majority would answer "Why, the Bible of course". But the rubber really only meets the road when one ventures a follow up question: "So you only use the Bible?....you have no other supporting or supplemental publications?"

....
They have another "one publication" besides the Holy Bible.
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UntoHim,

Your argument against supplemental publications is weak.

I am staring at a 37 Volume Church Fathers Set as I type this response... the earliest written almost 1900 years ago. Should those have not been written and published?

Even those who claim to only use the Bible are beneficiaries of the many writings of faithful brothers and sisters who wrote volumes about the Bible. It sounds really spiritual to say one only reads the Bible but in reality there are very few who do or will derive a lot from it for the simple reason that the Lord speaks through the many members and the gifted ones.

Now if you are such a person who reads one publication and only one, that is the Bible, then good for you. You and the Bible got your own thing going. Yet, if the truths that the Lord has released through many faithful servants were not captured in print then those truths would have been lost. Bible Truth Publishers printed early Brethren writings, Loizeaux printed some also, more recently Conley & Schoettle bring us Govett, Pember, Panton, .. well, I think each of these publishers and others did the church a great service by publishing writings that are interpretations of the Bible. The printing press brought good and bad but at least those ideas are not just relying on word of mouth to pass on the ideas.

Look, you might be a really smart and spiritual person and just by reading the Bible you might have seen everything the Lord showed those faithful servants..... but most of us are not like that. I for one am very happy that those teachings and explanations were captured in print. Now I can read for myself what the Lord showed them and have new conversations with the Lord about those too. They will never replace the Bible and the Holy Spirit but it is a false argument to argue that printed supplemental messages and articles should not be printed. I'm not naive enough to think that what the Lord will reveal to me is everything He only revealed to me directly.


... and a happy new year to you too.


Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

well, I think each of these publishers and others did the church a great service by publishing writings that are interpretations of the Bible. The printing press brought good and bad but at least those ideas are not just relying on word of mouth to pass on the ideas...
They will never replace the Bible and the Holy Spirit but it is a false argument to argue that printed supplemental messages and articles should not be printed. I'm not naive enough to think that what the Lord will reveal to me is everything He only revealed to me directly.


... and a happy new year to you too.


Drake

Yes. As I already quoted Paul has come down on this argument in a very strong way already. Different publishers have different agendas, but as long as Jesus is proclaimed we can all rejoice.

15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

The Bible is very clear that everyone should proclaim Christ, regardless of whether or not you are an apostle commissioned with "completing the word of God" or not.

I have no issue with LSM exercising editorial oversight. Nor is there anything unscriptural about reading spiritual books, it is all part of "the mind set on the Spirit".

The only concern I would have would be the alarm Paul raised in Galatians: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

The perversion of the gospel is astonishingly common. It seems everyone does it. WN and WL complained of many examples of the gospel being perverted in Christianity. This forum is examining the doctrines of WL to see if they also "desert the one who called us to live in the grace of Christ".

WL emphasized repeatedly that his message was "different" from Christianity. The question many of us have is was his message different from the gospel?

Also, these Judaizers insist on circumcision because they are afraid of being persecuted by other Jewish religious leaders. It's one thing to agree that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, but to teach that circumcision is not necessary will paint a target on their backs. Paul knew that from hard experience! So they take the easy way out and do both. Paul has taught clearly that the two cannot go together (Galatians 5:4).

It seems to me that the perversion of the gospel takes place when people choose the easy way out. King Saul did this when he did not obey. Abraham did not do this when he offered up Isaac. WL took the easy way out when he covered up WN's sin, he did it again with the Sister's rebellion, and he did it again in the 80s with JI, etal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am staring at a 37 Volume Church Fathers Set as I type this response... the earliest written almost 1900 years ago. Should those have not been written and published?

Drake,

LSM used their One Publication policy to excommunicate numerous ministers and divide dozens of churches. When has another book publisher ever done that in the course of church history?

It's good that you have the 37 volume Church Fathers set. Which denomination has ever demanded that their member churches read only from that set? When did the Publisher of that set decide to excommunicate ministers who did not teach from only that set?

I do wish you would be a little more straight forward and address the real concerns here, rather than going down rabbit holes like claiming other posters are demanding that ONLY the Bible be read.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's good that you have the 37 volume Church Fathers set. Which denomination has ever demanded that their member churches read only from that set? When did the Publisher of that set decide to excommunicate ministers who did not teach from only that set?.

Good for Drake that his local elders are okay with that, but not so with others. I have bought a few books with different Christian authors. But when the elder saw that I had a Christian book that isn't published by LSM, he demanded me to read Lee's books only!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Good for Drake that his local elders are okay with that, but not so with others. I have bought a few books with different Christian authors. But when the elder saw that I had a Christian book that isn't published by LSM, he demanded me to read Lee's books only!

Well, I believe you Kevin but I've never encountered that and I have observed many authors on the shelves of private libraries of brothers including leading ones. Furthermore, I bought most of my Govett, Pember, Panton, etc. from Conley and Schoettle publishers who had a table at an LSM sponsored conference. Additionally, LSM publishes the works of Watchman Nee that within also references and publishes those other authors works (Jessie Penn Lewis, S.D Gordon, and others) in the Collected Works.

I can't speak to your experience and why the elder demanded that you read only Brother Lee's books. It really baffles me because I have never seen an elder or a leading one exhibit that attitude or behavior in my four decades + about what anyone can read. It's a ridiculous demand and expectation because it goes contrary to the observation above and even if an elder were predisposed to controlling others in that way it is impossible to enforce.

Anyway, here's the thing. The "One Publication" is not about what one can read... it is about what LSM will publish under the banner of the ministry they are entrusted with. Every publisher reserves the right to publish what they feel responsible to the Lord for. I don't see any demands in the One Publication that forbids anyone from reading and owning whatever they like.

And finally, in UntoHim's argument he borrowed the "One Publication" term to make a different point, that being that the ONLY publication we as Christians should have is the Bible. So for you my friend, better get all Fahrenheit 451 with those John Piper books you treasure.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Anyway, here's the thing. The "One Publication" is not about what one can read... it is about what LSM will publish under the banner of the ministry they are entrusted with. Every publisher reserves the right to publish what they feel responsible to the Lord for. I don't see any demands in the One Publication that forbids anyone from reading and owning whatever they like.

Once again, I must speak up to correct your inaccuracies here. Either you don't know LSM history or you are purposely deceptive to the forum readers. After witnessing your habits over an extended period of time, I tend to believe the latter.

No one has ever said that LSM cannot pick and choose what they publish! They are a business. They can print whatever they want to. Everyone acknowledges this. This has never been a point of contention. This is a manufactured crisis! . Or, as you love to say, a "straw man" argument.

On the contrary, the "One Publication" decree which LSM initiated back in the early 2000's, had the motive to bring ministers like Titus Chu and Dong Yu Lan under subjection to LSM -- or else! The motives behind this decree were no different than the Papal Bulls of the Dark Ages -- bringing supposed "heretics" under subjection.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

I can't speak to your experience and why the elder demanded that you read only Brother Lee's books. It really baffles me because I have never seen an elder or a leading one exhibit that attitude or behavior in my four decades + about what anyone can read.

You haven't? Then you have clearly not been in the same Local Church of Witness Lee that we are talking about on this forum. Don't know any other way to understand how you could say something so diametrically opposed to the truth. I don't care how long you claim to have been an astronomer, even if it's for 40+ years...you cannot tell us the Moon is made of green cheese. It just ain't so. Care to restate?

Anyway, here's the thing. The "One Publication" is not about what one can read... it is about what LSM will publish under the banner of the ministry they are entrusted with.

Wow, more green cheese, eh? It's starting to smell around here bro. Let me try to go about this another way. Maybe you could tell us about the relationship that the Living Stream has with all the "local churches?" (of course I mean all the local churches associated with LSM) The Living Stream is a publisher. Got it! Cool! They publish the works of Lee and Nee. Check! No problem! What's the relationship between these "local churches" and the Living Stream Ministry? After 40+ years I think you might be able to give us a rather comprehensive description. Leave out the cheese, please!

And finally, in UntoHim's argument he borrowed the "One Publication" term to make a different point, that being that the ONLY publication we as Christians should have is the Bible.

Dude, are you actually reading what I post? I mean, it's like I'm writing in lower Slobovian or something. For God's sake, my man, the very title of this thread is ONE PUBLICATION. I didn't make this term up - it comes directly from the headquarters of the sect/religion you are here defending! Who said the Bible is "the only publication we as Christians should have?" Not me Kemosabe! And nobody else here said anything like that either. Your arguments seem to be with the fellows over there on La Palma Ave in Anaheim, and not with any of us here. I can give you a phone number or email address if you need it. Just say the word...I'm here to help!
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

You haven't? .....Care to restate?

No, I have spoken the truth as I see it. No need to restate it. Were I to say it differently I would not be truthful to myself or to the Lord. Not your experience? Fine. Don't believe me? Also fine. I answer to a higher power and authority, that is to the One who holds the seven Spirits and the seven stars in His right hand.

Yet, this thread is about the One Publication document so:

...please show us from the One Publication document where it says members have to read only Brother Lee...

.. ain't there...

Please show us from the One Publication document where it says members cannot own or read any other authors..

.. ain't there....

Please show us from the Bible were we are to only publish the Bible

..ain't there....

In case you are wondering why I am having these conversations then I suggest you read the basenote.... it is about the ONE PUBLICATION document.. it is not about what an elder said to you, it is not about what you want to believe about preferences in ministries in the local churches, it is not about what Mormons, Catholics, or JW's, publish.... those are completely irrelevant and a fallacy (it looks like this so it must be the same thing)... it is not about who was quarantined and the reasons for it...

....and ain't about green cheese.

Here the problem, the "One Publication" conversation in this forum is not about the One Publication document and its content.... rather, it is about the things you think are related to it..... it is similar to a Russians allegation.... no other explanation will even be considered because the Russians are involved... let's make everything about the One Publication and yet when you actually read the One Publication document it says none of the things you say it means. Now why is that? Why is it that you, rather than demonstrate from the content of the document itself derive all these evil things from it? Why, can't you stop yourself from doing that?

Now, perhaps you can cease and desist with all the generalizations and show me FROM THE ONE PUBLICATION DOCUMENT where it says what you say it does.

If not, then you are merely engaging in Russian like conversations.... effective perhaps at generating some heat... but no light.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Then you have clearly not been in the same Local Church of Witness Lee that we are talking about on this forum.

I've pointed that out before too. Our brother Drake's local church, as depicted out here, isn't anything like the one I was in. It seems to be to me two different local churches. Because bro Drake fears some kind of retaliation he can't tell us about what localities he's been in, down thru the decades, so we're unable to understand why his LC is so different than ours. And I could be wrong, but bro Drake doesn't strike me as delusional.

As far as the controlling of the reading material in the LC I can only speak of my experience, and that of other brothers I was close to, even some of them condemned some of the books I was reading.

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, for example, some brothers held their fingers in the shape of a cross, like expelling the devil, because I was reading John Nelson Darby.

I was a big time reader when I came into the c. in Santa Cruz. At the time I was reading 5 books. About a month or so after coming in, and joining a service group, the elders sent a brother to tell me that reading those books wasn't allowed in the local church.

So from the time I joined to the time I left I was told what to read and what not to read.

By comparison, brother Drake's local church sounds great. But my experience, knowing the ways of the local church, tells me that it's prolly just a bait and switch sales pitch.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, I believe you Kevin but I've never encountered that and I have observed many authors on the shelves of private libraries of brothers including leading ones. Furthermore, I bought most of my Govett, Pember, Panton, etc. from Conley and Schoettle publishers who had a table at an LSM sponsored conference. Additionally, LSM publishes the works of Watchman Nee that within also references and publishes those other authors works (Jessie Penn Lewis, S.D Gordon, and others) in the Collected Works.

Those people you've mentioned are in the line of the Lord's recovery. Of course they are recommended to be read because their theologies are aligned with the LC teachings. But aren't you missing this: "The books in Christianity are full of superstition, superficiality, and lukewarm theology, not to mention error in many cases. We are not part of organized Christianity." (The Ministry, March 2005)

I can't speak to your experience and why the elder demanded that you read only Brother Lee's books. It really baffles me because I have never seen an elder or a leading one exhibit that attitude or behavior in my four decades + about what anyone can read. It's a ridiculous demand and expectation because it goes contrary to the observation above and even if an elder were predisposed to controlling others in that way it is impossible to enforce.

I don't see any demands in the One Publication that forbids anyone from reading and owning whatever they like.

Here's the deal, let every LCer during the prophesying meeting have the opportunity to share the books they've read.

So for you my friend, better get all Fahrenheit 451 with those John Piper books you treasure.

And John Bunyan, R. C. Sproul, D. A. Carson, James R. White, Matt Chandler, David Platt, Jerry Bridges, Steve Lawson, Paul Washer, J. I. Packer, John MacArthur, J. C. Ryle, Paul E. Miller, Mark Jones, John Jerfferson Davis, Pat Springle, Elliot Nesch, Marcus Rainsford, Tim Keller, Charles Spurgeon, John Calvin, Michael Horton, Sinclair Ferguson, Robert Letham, Martyn Llyod Jones, and the grand finale Logos 8 platinum shared to me by mentor. How's that?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those people you've mentioned are in the line of the Lord's recovery. Of course they are recommended to be read because their theologies are aligned with the LC teachings. But aren't you missing this: "The books in Christianity are full of superstition, superficiality, and lukewarm theology, not to mention error in many cases. We are not part of organized Christianity." (The Ministry, March 2005)

Okay... but still it negates the idea that believers in the Lord's recovery must only read Brother Lee. Furthermore, I don't disagree with the bold statement and you probably agree also if you think about because you make a conscious decision about what authors to include in your library.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Here's the deal, let every LCer during the prophesying meeting have the opportunity to share the books they've read.

Ah, now that is a different discussion and a legitimate one. But it has nothing to do with the One Publication document.

Originally Posted by Kevin

And John Bunyan, R. C. Sproul, D. A. Carson, James R. White, Matt Chandler, David Platt, Jerry Bridges, Steve Lawson, Paul Washer, J. I. Packer, John MacArthur, J. C. Ryle, Paul E. Miller, Mark Jones, John Jerfferson Davis, Pat Springle, Elliot Nesch, Marcus Rainsford, Tim Keller, Charles Spurgeon, John Calvin, Michael Horton, Sinclair Ferguson, Robert Letham, Martyn Llyod Jones, and the grand finale Logos 8 platinum shared to me by mentor. How's that?

That is an impressive list and our libraries overlap on some of them. Good for us. And I am certain you and I would agree that none of them will ever take the place of the Bible and the Holy Spirit's direct speaking to us.

Drake