Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Before moving on we need to clarify what is meant by these comments.

I am not really sure we are disagreeing on the uncertain sound vs sound. It seems the same to me.... whether you are thinking about the trumpet of the tribes of Israel at say Jericho... a horn with a certain sound (a ram's horn)... or you are referring to modern military trumpet with a certain tune fit for purpose (e.g. charge, taps, wake up). What is the distinction you are making here? In either case, the sound or sounding of the trumpet in the example is the same.

The distinction I am making is on the emphasis. You (LSM/Lee/whoever) see's "trumpet" and hyperfocus on the fact that there is one and only one trumpet. Where from the verses does the focus on the attribute of singularity come from? Why not focus on what type of metal the trumpet may be made of? Why not focus on what note the trumpet probably played? The focus needs to be what is presented in the verses themselves.......the quality (certainness) of the sound. You can have a bunch of trumpets making the same uncertain sound.....it is all the same but it's all uncertain in the same way. The point is not the sameness as you described, it's the certainness. See my post #277.

I told you I would suspend belief on the analogy but on this point I stopped suspending belief about the analogy, so that's "my bad". You can respond to this point or not.

Originally Posted by Drake

On the second point, I don't see any "blatant lie 40 times over". Where in the authors explanation (Brother Lee's) of the trumpet, the sound, the ministry, the analogy of an army, is a blatant lie 40 times over? Point it out using the text of Brother Lee's words. That is what we are discussing at this time. Don't just make an accusation like that without substantiating it....we are having a conversation aren't we?.... we have his words in front of us so do the due diligence and show us exactly where. Just clip it and insert it and bold it.

Drake

I did not say the trumpet, sound, ministry, army is a blatant lie 40 times over. I said the claim that what is being talked about does not involve the Lord's recovery is a lie 40 times over. I detailed this in post #273.

Trapped

[Drake]

Trapped,

Three things to discuss based on your last few points. First, this one.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The distinction I am making is on the emphasis. You (LSM/Lee/whoever) see's "trumpet" and hyperfocus on the fact that there is one and only one trumpet. Where from the verses does the focus on the attribute of singularity come from? Why not focus on what type of metal the trumpet may be made of? Why not focus on what note the trumpet probably played

No, Brother Lee’s emphasis was very much on the “sounding”. My explanation of a rams horn or a modern military trumpet also focused on the sound, tone, or series of notes. I said more about the trumpet than Brother Lee did in the opening post but the analogy was never about type of metal or things you mentioned. By singularity you mean why can’t there be many trumpets... why just one.... using the analogy of an army on the field of battle having many trumpets blasting out different tunes and sounds would cause confusion and disarray.

Again, you may not agree with the analogy but that is plainly what Brother Lee said.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Three things to discuss based on your last few points. First, this one.


No, Brother Lee’s emphasis was very much on the “sounding”. My explanation of a rams horn or a modern military trumpet also focused on the sound, tone, or series of notes. I said more about the trumpet than Brother Lee did in the opening post but the analogy was never about type of metal or things you mentioned. By singularity you mean why can’t there be many trumpets... why just one.... using the analogy of an army on the field of battle having many trumpets blasting out different tunes and sounds would cause confusion and disarray.

Again, you may not agree with the analogy but that is plainly what Brother Lee said.

Drake

Drake,

Okay, I guess we'll get into the trumpet analogy then.

Have you ever attended an orchestra performance? At every one I've ever been to there is a moment before things get started where all the instruments come together into one certain mind-soothing note which silences the entire concert hall and tells everyone exactly what is going on. If you say there can be no certain sounding unless there is only one trumpet and one trumpet only, then you are focusing on the number. You are making the mistake that having more than one trumpet automatically means that there are different tunes and sounds causing confusion.

However, since that example is an orchestra rather than a battle, I'd like to point you to Joshua 6:8, 13, and 16, which do speak of battle:

6 Then when Joshua had spoken to the people, the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets of rams' horns before Jehovah passed on and blew the trumpets...
13 And the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets of rams' horns went before the Ark of Jehovah, continually blowing the trumpets; and the armed men went before them, and the rearguard went after the Ark of Jehovah, the trumpets continually blowing.
16 And at the seventh time the priests blew the trumpets, and Joshua said to the people, Shout! For Jehovah has given you the city.

Here there are seven priests blowing seven trumpets......why isn't the army confused by there being more than one trumpet? All I see is victory.

But we can go back to 1 Corinthians 14 if you want. Verse 8 starts out, "For also if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound..." Verse 10 says, "There are perhaps many kind of voices in the world, and not one is without significance."

Brother Lee's footnote on "voices" says, "In Greek the same as sound in vv. 7-8." Since Paul grants that there are many voices, all of which are significant, and "voices" in 10 is the same as "sound" in 8......then there are many sounds.

There is not just one sound. There is not just one trumpet. Each person speaking is a trumpet, and that speaking should be clear in its utterance. In the analogy, each person's individual speaking is the blowing of their own trumpet "to battle". There is not only one trumpet.

What is the sounding anyway? Is it Christ and Him crucified? Is it the gospel of the kingdom being preached? I hope so. The Bible doesn't speak of a publication or a recovery that needs to be sounded.

Trapped

P.S. It's not a matter of agreeing with the analogy. It is not like the analogy holds water and I just don't agree with it. The analogy holds water like a sieve so there's nothing to even begin to agree with.

[Drake]

m

Originally Posted by Trapped

Have you ever attended an orchestra performance?

However, since that example is an orchestra rather than a battle, I'd like to point you to Joshua 6:8, 13, and 16, which do speak of battle:

6 Then when Joshua had spoken to the people, the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets of rams' horns before Jehovah passed on and blew the trumpets...
13 And the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets of rams' horns went before the Ark of Jehovah, continually blowing the trumpets; and the armed men went before them, and the rearguard went after the Ark of Jehovah, the trumpets continually blowing.
16 And at the seventh time the priests blew the trumpets, and Joshua said to the people, Shout! For Jehovah has given you the city.

Here there are seven priests blowing seven trumpets......why isn't the army confused by there being more than one trumpet? All I see is victory....

.....There is not just one sound. There is not just one trumpet. Each person speaking is a trumpet, and that speaking should be clear in its utterance. In the analogy, each person's individual speaking is the blowing of their own trumpet "to battle". There is not only one trumpet.

Okay Trapped. As long as we understand what the author (Brother Lee) actually said then our conversation is progressing to gain the clarity needed for the rest of the conversation.... if you want to debate the merits of the analogy that is fine too.... yet I don't want to argue but I'll offer my view on your points above.

An orchestra is a fine analogy.... for something else... not a call to battle. In a battle there are certain instruments used to mobilize the troops. Could be a trumpet as the US Calvary used, or a fife and drum as the early American troops used, and those sounds are rehearsed to insure when a soldier hears the sound especially in the heat of battle they know what it means, they know what to do, fight or retreat, assemble.... or take some specific battle action.... as occurred at Jericho....

....., when you say that there were 7 trumpets used at Jericho you are absolutely correct, there were 7 and yet that is a very good example of what multiple trumpets in battle should do... they all sounded out at the same moment and gave the same call for the army to shout in unison.They were not confused precisely because every trumpet issued the same sound, the same implied command (to shout), at the same moment, and as a result the children of Israel were victorious:

"... and when the people heard the trumpet sound, the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat..." Joshua 6:20

That wasn't an orchestra tuning up out there outside Jericho.... though I can imagine an orchestra as a fine analogy for something else but not for what Brother Lee was conveying concerning a call to arms, an enjoining in battle, etc.. Though there were 7 trumpets blowing at Jericho... they produced one sound... "the trumpet sound".... as underlined above, so there was no uncertain sound even though there were 7 trumpets. They all made the one trumpet sound. Not the sound of 6 trumpets and a harmonica.... or 5 trumpets and 2 maracas, or 4 trumpets with 3 others coming from street instruments by Willy and the Po Boys. The whole point of 7 ram's horns is that they were identical in form and function and sound in every way.


I'm not objecting to someone using the analogy of an orchestra... I probably used it myself somewhere along the way.... but that is not the analogy that Brother Lee used so if we want to understand what he meant then we need to explore what he actually said.


Drake

[Ohio]

We should ask ourselves when does the New Testament ever suggest that one minister on earth possesses the right to call God's people to battle? On the contrary, Paul uses this example of battle trumpets (I Corin. 14.6-11) to expose the reckless practice of tongues in the gatherings of the Corinthian church. Remember this biblical principle: Context is crucial!

Is not this what the Popes have done for centuries, wrongly using Old Testament patterns? Protestant evangelicals have been protesting this false assumption of spiritual power since the Dark Ages. And is it not this false assumption of spiritual power by Rome which thrust the Western world into the Dark Ages.

Moses was never a pattern for a minister or an apostle of the NT church. The Bible clearly tells us that Moses was a notable type of Jesus Christ, our heavenly Prophet, Apostle, and Builder of God's house. (Deut 18.15-19; Acts 3.18-23; Hebrews 3.1-6) Please read the scriptures here!

Both Witness Lee, the Blendeds, and Drake have all erred here. They take a verse out of context and then use it to exalt their "commander-in-chief," bestowing on him certain powers far outside the boundaries of the New Testament. Not only has this practice continually divided the church, but has served to damage thousands of God's children. They have abused and misused this one verse, taken out of context, to exalt themselves, make up this One Publication Edict Bull, and damage thousands of God's people.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

..the trumpet as the instrument blown to sound out the uncertain call to battle, are the publications that are of the same genre, mostly but not exclusively of two authors (Bros Nee and Lee), a few other historical authors (Mary McDonough, Jessie Penn-Lewis; etc.), and the many contributors to Affirmation & Critique

So Mary McDonough's writings are part of the One Publication? So Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings are part of the One Publication? So the writings of the contributors to Affirmation & Critique are part of the One Publication? Not exclusively Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? You need to inform the Blended Brothers of this new revelation! I'm sure our friend Drake is going to try to wiggle out of his faux pas by playing this newfangled "same genre" card, but this thread is not about publications "that are of the same genre"...no sir...the One Publication is the speakings and writings of Witness Lee (and a scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee). And even IF other writings were to be considered, they would have to be officially recognized by the Blended Brothers, and not some dude on an Internet forum.

"Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church............ The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry."

This is a mealy mouthed obfuscation of the stark reality in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Those local churches that do not fully imbibe, teach and practice the personal ministry of Witness Lee are hardly considered "a genuine local church". They are ostracized at the least, and most often "quarantined", which is really a de facto corporate excommunication. Just ask of the brothers and sisters who went through the Mid-West/Canadian fiasco of a dozen years ago. Ask them if they were treated like "genuine local churches". "They can express their opinions" Wow, how generous of the Acting god! Of course his generosity quickly disappears in the next breath - "but they may have nothing to do with this ministry". That's like saying "if you say that you're part of the family, and dare to look at dad cross-eyed, you can move out today...and don't forget to take your opinions with you!"
-

[Ohio]

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Since we now have the advantage of many years of LSM history, we can look at this quote by Witness Lee and see the deceptions.

What happened to both the LC's in Brazil and the Midwest a decade ago was the same. LSM Blendeds stepped in with their agents working for their DCP faction to determine that these LC's were not properly receiving "the ministry." They were not adequately attending LSM's sponsored events. They did not sufficiently purchase LSM's books and materials. They could not be brought under subjection.

LSM and DCP decided whether these LC's were "genuine" LC's, as only they can. Their operatives decided it was time to excommunicate their leaders and file lawsuits to steal their meeting halls and other church assets. They divided churches, families, loved ones. They could care less. Their "vision" of ministry provided them endless justifications for their ambitious ends to justify their non-biblical means.

Today I wouldn't trust an agent from LSM to walk my dog. Their system of loyalty demands them to shipwreck their conscience when it comes to brotherly love.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Mary McDonough's writings are part of the One Publication? So Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings are part of the One Publication? So the writings of the contributors to Affirmation & Critique are part of the One Publication? Not exclusively Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

Why.....of course! That is why they PUBLISH those writings.

Isn't your objection that there is ONE Publication? If they publish Brother Nee, Brother Lee, Mary McDonough, some writings of Jessie Penn Lewis, other authors, the many contributors to Affirmation & Critique, Jules Gross, the dozen or so speakers/writers in the periodical Ministry Magazine,etc. etc. then either:

1) There is ONE publication and it includes many authors/speakers/writers

or

2) There is not just ONE Publication but TWO, THREE, FOUR or more Publications... therefore several pubs for all the writers.

Sorry brother, you cannot have it both ways. Either there is ONE Publication with many authors or there are many Publications for many authors.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

m

Okay Trapped. As long as we understand what the author (Brother Lee) actually said then our conversation is progressing to gain the clarity needed for the rest of the conversation.... if you want to debate the merits of the analogy that is fine too.... yet I don't want to argue but I'll offer my view on your points above.

An orchestra is a fine analogy.... for something else... not a call to battle. In a battle there are certain instruments used to mobilize the troops. Could be a trumpet as the US Calvary used, or a fife and drum as the early American troops used, and those sounds are rehearsed to insure when a soldier hears the sound especially in the heat of battle they know what it means, they know what to do, fight or retreat, assemble.... or take some specific battle action.... as occurred at Jericho....

....., when you say that there were 7 trumpets used at Jericho you are absolutely correct, there were 7 and yet that is a very good example of what multiple trumpets in battle should do... they all sounded out at the same moment and gave the same call for the army to shout in unison.They were not confused precisely because every trumpet issued the same sound, the same implied command (to shout), at the same moment, and as a result the children of Israel were victorious:

"... and when the people heard the trumpet sound, the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat..." Joshua 6:20

That wasn't an orchestra tuning up out there outside Jericho.... though I can imagine an orchestra as a fine analogy for something else but not for what Brother Lee was conveying concerning a call to arms, an enjoining in battle, etc.. Though there were 7 trumpets blowing at Jericho... they produced one sound... "the trumpet sound".... as underlined above, so there was no uncertain sound even though there were 7 trumpets. They all made the one trumpet sound. Not the sound of 6 trumpets and a harmonica.... or 5 trumpets and 2 maracas, or 4 trumpets with 3 others coming from street instruments by Willy and the Po Boys. The whole point of 7 ram's horns is that they were identical in form and function and sound in every way.

I'm not objecting to someone using the analogy of an orchestra... I probably used it myself somewhere along the way.... but that is not the analogy that Brother Lee used so if we want to understand what he meant then we need to explore what he actually said.


Drake

Drake,

I have always understood what brother Lee said. It is not unintelligible (I'm speaking mostly of the analogy here, not the entire document), and it is understandable in its construct. I thoroughly understand the point and the analogy as it is used in the One Pub. It just isn't correct. Nee/Lee's published ministry is not the sounding of the trumpet. It just isn't. That's a non-Biblical claim using a Biblical analogy. Readers are free to disagree. Many do. If it's not correct, it doesn't matter if it's understood because it negates the rest of it.

The orchestra commencement sound was just an illustration to show in an example that most people should have personal experience with (unless everyone here has actually been to battle!) that "many" does not necessarily mean "different" or "confusing". I am clear we are not discussing an orchestra.

Each believer speaking in a meeting is issuing a trumpet sound, according to Paul. He does not say each sound has to be the same or identical in form, function, and sound in every way. Each believer is issuing a trumpet sound. These sounds can come out differently one believer to another. What matters is that the sound is certain. Each believer is sounding. Not an entire entity issuing one sound for a whole affiliated group of believers.

Trapped