Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

..the trumpet as the instrument blown to sound out the uncertain call to battle, are the publications that are of the same genre, mostly but not exclusively of two authors (Bros Nee and Lee), a few other historical authors (Mary McDonough, Jessie Penn-Lewis; etc.), and the many contributors to Affirmation & Critique

So Mary McDonough's writings are part of the One Publication? So Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings are part of the One Publication? So the writings of the contributors to Affirmation & Critique are part of the One Publication? Not exclusively Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? You need to inform the Blended Brothers of this new revelation! I'm sure our friend Drake is going to try to wiggle out of his faux pas by playing this newfangled "same genre" card, but this thread is not about publications "that are of the same genre"...no sir...the One Publication is the speakings and writings of Witness Lee (and a scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee). And even IF other writings were to be considered, they would have to be officially recognized by the Blended Brothers, and not some dude on an Internet forum.

"Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church............ The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry."

This is a mealy mouthed obfuscation of the stark reality in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Those local churches that do not fully imbibe, teach and practice the personal ministry of Witness Lee are hardly considered "a genuine local church". They are ostracized at the least, and most often "quarantined", which is really a de facto corporate excommunication. Just ask of the brothers and sisters who went through the Mid-West/Canadian fiasco of a dozen years ago. Ask them if they were treated like "genuine local churches". "They can express their opinions" Wow, how generous of the Acting god! Of course his generosity quickly disappears in the next breath - "but they may have nothing to do with this ministry". That's like saying "if you say that you're part of the family, and dare to look at dad cross-eyed, you can move out today...and don't forget to take your opinions with you!"
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[Ohio]

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Since we now have the advantage of many years of LSM history, we can look at this quote by Witness Lee and see the deceptions.

What happened to both the LC's in Brazil and the Midwest a decade ago was the same. LSM Blendeds stepped in with their agents working for their DCP faction to determine that these LC's were not properly receiving "the ministry." They were not adequately attending LSM's sponsored events. They did not sufficiently purchase LSM's books and materials. They could not be brought under subjection.

LSM and DCP decided whether these LC's were "genuine" LC's, as only they can. Their operatives decided it was time to excommunicate their leaders and file lawsuits to steal their meeting halls and other church assets. They divided churches, families, loved ones. They could care less. Their "vision" of ministry provided them endless justifications for their ambitious ends to justify their non-biblical means.

Today I wouldn't trust an agent from LSM to walk my dog. Their system of loyalty demands them to shipwreck their conscience when it comes to brotherly love.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Mary McDonough's writings are part of the One Publication? So Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings are part of the One Publication? So the writings of the contributors to Affirmation & Critique are part of the One Publication? Not exclusively Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

Why.....of course! That is why they PUBLISH those writings.

Isn't your objection that there is ONE Publication? If they publish Brother Nee, Brother Lee, Mary McDonough, some writings of Jessie Penn Lewis, other authors, the many contributors to Affirmation & Critique, Jules Gross, the dozen or so speakers/writers in the periodical Ministry Magazine,etc. etc. then either:

1) There is ONE publication and it includes many authors/speakers/writers

or

2) There is not just ONE Publication but TWO, THREE, FOUR or more Publications... therefore several pubs for all the writers.

Sorry brother, you cannot have it both ways. Either there is ONE Publication with many authors or there are many Publications for many authors.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Why.....of course! That is why they PUBLISH those writings.

Isn't your objection that there is ONE Publication? If they publish Brother Nee, Brother Lee, Mary McDonough, some writings of Jessie Penn Lewis, other authors, the many contributors to Affirmation & Critique, Jules Gross, the dozen or so speakers/writers in the periodical Ministry Magazine,etc. etc. then either:

1) There is ONE publication and it includes many authors/speakers/writers

or

2) There is not just ONE Publication but TWO, THREE, FOUR or more Publications... therefore several pubs for all the writers.

Sorry brother, you cannot have it both ways. Either there is ONE Publication with many authors or there are many Publications for many authors.

Drake

I'd love to agree with you on something (actually I do agree with some of your posts on other threads but just don't have much spare time to say so) but here I have to disagree on both points.

Option 1: One pub which includes many authors:

This DCP website (https://www.afaithfulword.org/contributions/DHo1/) states unequivocally that it is only Nee/Lee: One publication means the "publication of the ministry materials of [Watchman Nee and Witness Lee]" as well as the "ongoing ministry in the Lord's recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers" ( Publication Work in the Lord's Recovery, p. 5).

If the "ongoing ministry" was anything other than refried Nee/Lee then we could talk about many authors, but it is not, it is just repackaged Nee/Lee.

Option 2: 2, 3, 4 publications:

See the two quotes below from the One Pub itself:

According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

From the quote above it is clearly stated that one publication is that which is published by LSM.

As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

These other authors are not published by LSM but by totally different entities! LSB and A&C Press. Obviously there is affiliation, but nevertheless they are not published by LSM. By definition this means they are not part of the one publication.

Note the phrase "other kinds of publications". Nowhere does this say that these other authors are part of the one publication.

So from the horse's mouth itself:

1. One publication means the ministry of Nee/Lee and extension thereof.
2. One publication is that which is published by LSM.
3. Other authors are not published by LSM but other entities.
4. Other authors are not part of the one publication but are "other publications".

While you may say, "See! Multiple publications! Not just one!" Welll.......the existence of 2, 3, 4 publications has no effect because the document says the saints should be restricted in "one publication". So even if these other authors (not part of 1Pub) or other publications (not part of 1Pub) exist......the churches are still instructed to restrict themselves to the one publication - i.e. Nee and Lee put out by LSM.

I'm just going by what is written.

Trapped

P.S. I will give credit to the fact that Mary E. McDonough's book is listed on ministrybooks.org, but it is like a drop in the ocean, come on.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'd love to agree with you on something

You should try it sometime but I'll give you fair warning... were you to make a habit out of it this forum will beat you back like a mangy dog.

Originally Posted by Trapped

From the quote above it is clearly stated that one publication is that which is published by LSM.

As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

These other authors are not published by LSM but by totally different entities! LSB and A&C Press. Obviously there is affiliation, but nevertheless they are not published by LSM. By definition this means they are not part of the one publication.

By saying the other authors are "not published by LSM" means you do not understand the the term "imprint" as relates to a publisher.

An imprint is a trade name of a publisher but its still published by the publisher.

"An imprint of a publisher is a trade name under which it publishes a work. A single publishing company may have multiple imprints, often using the different names as brands to market works to various demographic consumer segments.[1] Wikipedia

In this case Affirmation & Critique is an imprint of LSM. One cannot say LSM is not the publisher of its imprints. You could say that LSM segments the market and publishes under different imprints to reach said market.... that is, publications produced that are fit for purpose. But it cannot be said that a publisher that publishes its imprints is not the publisher of its imprints. That is not logical and is not based on fact and is a distinction without difference.

McDonough is published by LSM, Ministry Magazine is published by LSM, .... and not just print but video and audio are also produced by LSM. Not as some claim that "speakings and writings of Witness Lee (and a scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee)". As we speak I am staring at a 62 Volume Set by Watchman Nee published by LSM. Hardly "scant little" so the whole argument to cast LSM as exclusively publishing one author and imposing those writings on local churches is a misunderstanding at best.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

You should try it sometime but I'll give you fair warning... were you to make a habit out of it this forum will beat you back like a mangy dog.

Which is why many of us don't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole.

Bottom line to me -- if the LC does not control what books you purchase and read who cares. They have the right to publish as many or as few authors as they wish. In this age with Amazon.com, the internet, audible, etc. how could an elder from a local church of a few hundred control what you read? So who cares? If they are otherwise minded from the NT the Lord will show them and adjust them. (now I guess I need to prepare to get whacked)

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

McDonough is published by LSM, Ministry Magazine is published by LSM, .... and not just print but video and audio are also produced by LSM. Not as some claim that "speakings and writings of Witness Lee (and a scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee)". As we speak I am staring at a 62 Volume Set by Watchman Nee published by LSM. Hardly "scant little" so the whole argument to cast LSM as exclusively publishing one author and imposing those writings on local churches is a misunderstanding at best.

Well thank you for promoting me up to the exalted elevation of "some"! Check is in the mail.

"and not just print but video and audio"....yeah, video and audio of WHAT? I'll tell you what...90-95% regurgitation, either literal reading of a footnote or outline or quote/close paraphrase from a published book or message, directly from the mouth of Witness Lee, and ONLY WITNESS LEE...that's what. Drake can jump up and down, and deny the facts all he wants...all the way until the moo cows come home. Does anyone really think quoting from lsm.org is giving anybody the real picture of what is going on during the Local Church meetings? You see, THIS is what Trapped and the rest of us all talking about. Again, most of us know very well that what is stated from the Headquarters over on La Palma Ave in Anaheim, and what is actually taught and practiced on a daily/weekly basis in the local churches, can actually be two totally different things. You see, the dear brothers over at LSM are quite aware of the reputation of the Local Church of Witness Lee with most Christian teachers, apologists, and even the general Christian public - that the words of Witness Lee are often treated on equal plane with the Word of God (and in the case of the epistle of James and some of the Psalms - ABOVE the Word of God) and they try to hide this fact on the publicly available websites.

In regards to the publication of the speakings/writings of Watchman Nee, they are not treated with anywhere near the reverence that is afforded to 李常受; Lǐ Chángshòu; - and they never have been in the West since Witness Lee absconded to our fair shores. So Drake can have a 62 thousand volume set of Nee and it don't mean jack. I would challenge him, or anyone, to bring one of these volumes of Nee to the "prophesying meeting", stand up and read about the part where Nee clearly states that the ministry should be for the church(es) and not the other way around (like it is in the Local Church of Witness Lee). See where that gets him. Most places that would get him a loud rebuke of a sickening monotonic chorus of "ooooooohhhhhhh Llllllloooooorrrrrddddd Jeeeeeeeesuuuuus" from the faithful. Then they would tell him to put down that volume and pick up the outline from "The Ministry", and pray-read point 1) a) v) 6) II) - - "the proclamation of the dispensation of the intrinsic expression of the triune God as the six-fold intensification of the life-giving Spirit (deep breath) in the human spirit of the tripartite man for the building up and expression of the one new man as the living organism (one more breath...almost done!) which becomes the ultimate expression of the corporate God-men consummating in the New Jerusalem". (due to bandwidth limits, and the distinct possibility of contracting carpal tunnel syndrome, I have given the shortened version)
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In regards to the publication of the speakings/writings of Watchman Nee, they are not treated with anywhere near the reverence that is afforded to 李常受; Lǐ Chángshòu; - and they never have been in the West since Witness Lee absconded to our fair shores.

....I would challenge him, or anyone, to bring one of these volumes of Nee to the prophesying meeting", stand up and read about the part where Nee clearly states that the ministry should be for the church(es) and not the other way around (like it is in the Local Church of Witness Lee). -

Yep.....and there it is... right on schedule.... the ever waiting in the wings brother UntoHim argument .... " uneducated man from China, without a Divinity degree coming over here to our fair Western shores, thinks he is smarter then the rest of us, and forcing us to buy his books.... "

Now, I know that this will come as some surprise to you brother, but I have and frequently do just what you say.... I research and include Watchman Nee statements in my messages and prophesying.

Look brother, you are constantly trying create daylight between Brother Lee where there is none so you ignore the facts, distort the facts, introduce your own "facts" like you did in this thread. Like:

You claim LSM exclusively publishes one author.

False. The facts are that there are many.

You claim that LSM only publishes "scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee".

False. The collected works of Watchman Nee are 62 volumes.. hardly "scant little".

You claim Brother Nee said the ministry is for the churches but Brother Lee did not.

False. Brother Lee in the base note "Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches."

You claim we believers in the local churches are forced to read only one author, Witness Lee.

False.

... and yet, you just keep racking them up and when confronted with the facts rather than restate based on those facts, you turn to the "uneducated China man" argument.

What possesses you to do that?

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Which is why many of us don't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole.

Bottom line to me -- if the LC does not control what books you purchase and read who cares. They have the right to publish as many or as few authors as they wish. In this age with Amazon.com, the internet, audible, etc. how could an elder from a local church of a few hundred control what you read? So who cares? If they are otherwise minded from the NT the Lord will show them and adjust them. (now I guess I need to prepare to get whacked)

Exactly. Well said.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Hey Drake...I have a feeling your pole is not quite as long as Mr. Z's. (apparently his pole is not so long as to not come and grace us with one of his hit and run, playing devil's advocate, off-topic posts...but hey...that's how the man rolls!)
Care to actually address the topic at hand? No need to actually address what I posted...you never do anyhow. How bout you take a crack at Trapped's last round of posts? Trapped is better than me on his worst day anywho. Go get em champ!
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Which is why many of us don't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole.

Bottom line to me -- if the LC does not control what books you purchase and read who cares. They have the right to publish as many or as few authors as they wish. In this age with Amazon.com, the internet, audible, etc. how could an elder from a local church of a few hundred control what you read? So who cares? If they are otherwise minded from the NT the Lord will show them and adjust them. (now I guess I need to prepare to get whacked)

Hi ZNP,

I've spent some time reading through a lot of posts on this forum and have noticed you sometimes respond similarly ("who cares") in other threads.

I'll start by saying that I don't really disagree with you. I think in most cases, no the LC does not control what books most saints purchase or read, although I have heard cases of what could arguably be labelled the opposite.

On the other hand, there are indisputable cases of saints having their own books or personal blogs or anything that might be labelled "publication" in ANY way shut down by "brothers-in-power that be". This happens. It is a fact. It is wrong.

The Lord will adjust them, either now or at the end, but it doesn't also mean that we agree with or let slide things that are wrong in this age. Although there is a wide spectrum of oppression, LSM definitely dabbles in it, and the Lord was all about freeing those oppressed.

Are you a church kid (either born one or come into the LCs at a young age)? Or did your time there occur as an adult? I believe this makes a difference.

I know someone who touched the church as an adult, went to some meetings and listened to some training messages, and said "I don't agree with enough things they say, goodbye", and left. He came in as an adult, as a young person he was allowed to think critically and make decisions based on what he clearly saw, and knew from life experience that this WASN'T "the center of God's move on the earth" and he was therefore free to leave. So he did. A blip in his life.

This seemingly normal freedom of thought is a foreign thing for me and the type of normal psychological life that I was cheated of, envy very much, and am working hard to attain even as I have very few models around me to pattern after.

I recall one time as a kid I really liked a certain band. Very innocuous music, some unique and varied skills within the group, focused on the technical aspects and tight singing abilities, not sinful lyrics, etc. (Think, like, someone who plays a stringed instrument liking Yo Yo Ma's music). I got it in my head one day to see if I could get the band to play at a concert hall in my city. I got really pumped about the idea and was excited about something for the first time in a long time. I made the mistake of telling one of my parents my idea, thinking they'd share my excitement and support me. Wrong. What I received was a tight-lipped, "Trapped.....do you think the Lord would have you promote this band?"

I was crushed. I mean, crushed. I mean, internally obliterated. Searing shame. The excitement and light in my eyes that hadn't been there in so long anyway went out in a cold wind, and because the Lord was invoked I felt like I was such an evil and sinful person for just wanting to make a few phone calls to some venues to suggest this cool group. This greatly affected my view of God for years and years and years. Along with all the other subtle and overt messages in the church I received that God didn't like to see me smile, this cemented it.

As an adult, I relayed the story to a saint who did not grow up in the church, and their response was, "Pffff, I would have just said to my parents, 'whatever, I don't like your answer, I'm doing it'." I realized they didn't and couldn't understand why I was crushed as a kid. Seeing the situation as it clearly is and vocalizing your disagreement was not an option growing up in the church.

As an adult, I realize my parent's response wasn't a good one. They should have realized it was an innocuous thing, not sinful, not a "promotion" of an evil group, and supported their excited kid in the effort. Now I can see they made a mistake and can forgive them. But it literally took 15 years for me to be able to think critically about the situation.

Anyway that's a poor example to try to show that those who grow up in the church probably literally have their brains wired differently than those who don't, and it is a monumental effort to actually look at something for yourself and decide whether it is right or wrong, good or bad, accurate or inaccurate, from the Lord or not.

If you have the oracle of God, the one man releasing God's up-to-date speaking on the earth, this gem of a difficult to understand old wise Chinese man that for some reason only our little group sees as the minister of the age and the rest of the millions of Christians don't which must mean we are special and chosen and really in the center of the great wheel while everyone else in dark Christianity is flying off the spokes as we crush them.......telling you "truthfully that there is no light in other books", and you are a young impressionable kid who has grown up being conditioned in every way that you must believe the indisputable truth that is being spoken to you from God's lips through a Chinese accent to your ears......there is a problem. And it's a problem that requires that some people speak up.

No LSM doesn't overtly communist Russia control what people read, but they have a deep and far-reaching effect on those who can't think for themselves, and there is a system built up to prevent and discourage anyone in it from thinking for themselves. I received my first non-Nee/Lee Christian book from a dear believer in my early 30s and I was so "Trapped" in my conditioning that I couldn't even open it up and I shelved it on my bookcase immediately quite literally almost wondering if I would be bothered by idols that night as I slept because I dared to have a non-ministry Christian book in my possession. I didn't read it for a year. This was as a FULL BLOWN ADULT IN MY THIRTIES. This is not overt control, but it is deep-seated fear based conditioning.

Getting into the trumpet analogy with Drake and seeing the erroneous application from 1 Cor. 14:8 explains so much of the struggle in my life. For decades I have had my round head hammered into the square peg holes of Lee’s writings, rather than into the round peg holes of what the Bible says. No wonder I am bruised and bewildered.

I've been strong-armed my whole life into having to pretend what I am reading and hearing in the ministry matches up with what the Bible says and I see so clearly now that the source of the confusion is not me.

I'd love to say "who cares" like you but because I've lost so much from my youth and young adult years because of crooked speaking and claims like what is in the One Publication, I can't keep quiet anymore.

No one is disputing LSM's right to publish what they want or who they want or restrict themselves to what they want. No one here has any issue with that. The issue is with restricting the saints in the churches to only Nee and Lee. That's all. Having one small paragraph in between many others quietly saying (you are still a local church if you don't take this way) does not allow that the opposite speaking from the rest of the document be let off scott-free. I think you can agree that that restriction is not of the Lord (unless a saint actually feels led from the Lord in that way, then who am I to say, but it actually has to be the actual Lord's leading). LSM does not control the churches. They have no business restricting the saints or the churches to anything, or issuing a statement to that effect. They know the effect they have on people.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

LSM doesn't overtly communist Russia control what people read, but they have a deep and far-reaching effect on those who can't think for themselves, and there is a system built up to prevent and discourage anyone in it from thinking for themselves.

Oh but they do - my experience has been they do overtly control what people read. Just try to read something other than "the latest speaking" and wait 'till Anaheim hears.

I'll never forget the confused and discouraged look on the elder's face in my 'locality' after he had the temerity to try to hold a week-end conference for our church using one of WL's earlier books, which he felt was a gem and should be gone over again, and he received the reply, "Re-speak the latest conference".

He was still using the approved publisher, LSM, but tried to use the "wrong book"! He just stared at the floor, crestfallen. He'd followed Witness Lee for decades. Now some pipsqueeks in Anaheim were telling him what LSM materials he could read or not read in the church.

Had he done so quietly on the down low, he might've gotten away with it. But he tried to buy a bunch of copies of this book, invite members of neighbour local churches, etc, and the Blendeds got wind of his plans.

It's a soul-crushing system. And if someone asks "Who cares?", I reply that God cares. So I speak out.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi ZNP, I've spent some time reading through a lot of posts on this forum and have noticed you sometimes respond similarly ("who cares") in other threads.

I have posted 6,000 times. I would be surprised if there are 6 posts of mine with this expression.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'll start by saying that I don't really disagree with you. I think in most cases, no the LC does not control what books most saints purchase or read, although I have heard cases of what could arguably be labelled the opposite.

Yes, I am one such case. I was pressured to buy a WL book rather than a WN book, and refused to do so. In reflecting on my own testimony I have come to believe this was one of the "strikes" against me that the elders referred to when they dragged me into the elder's room. However, no one was willing to say this clearly.

Originally Posted by Trapped

On the other hand, there are indisputable cases of saints having their own books or personal blogs or anything that might be labelled "publication" in ANY way shut down by "brothers-in-power that be". This happens. It is a fact. It is wrong.

Again, I have many experiences of this. While in Houston I saw Ray Graver research and write his book about pray reading the word. He would come to the library at Rice University and I would see him there. He would also share some of his finds during meetings. It was a wonderful confirmation that "pray reading" has been with the church for thousands of years and that all of the most respected spiritual brothers had this practice. LSM did not publish the book. He wrote this when it would have been very valuable to disprove the attacks in the law court concerning God Men and Mind Benders. Why wouldn't LSM publish? I think it reveals a lot. So what, he published with another publisher, I have the book, and I enjoyed the entire process. At this time I was also sharing a lot about the precious stones. This was passed up the chain to WL and he asked for me to write something. I sent him 20 pages and he concluded that "it wasn't ready". Many saints were upset, not me. First, I addressed his pet doctrine that Jasper was green. I could have not said anything. Instead I chose to be diplomatic, but accurate and honest. I am glad that I did. A year later LSM was printing the "rainbow booklets" they wanted them to be the colors of the precious stones, they asked Kerry Robicheaux to get them the colors but the brother in charge of printing didn't like the colors because "they were ugly and they had black in them". So they asked me, I spent a day, came back with the colors, they loved them, and those were the colors they used for the "rainbow booklets". Again, very revealing. Just like the song said "all he could do the foe, was just release the flow". Again, that song was written by a brother in Houston. Why were these songs not made part of our official hymnal? There was a time when lots of saints were writing songs, we were encouraged to do this after the Ephesians training. But LSM didn't publish, why? Again, to my impression very revealing. While in Taipei in the Full time training I wrote and published a book "Glory to the Coming King" again not with LSM though I would have.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Lord will adjust them, either now or at the end, but it doesn't also mean that we agree with or let slide things that are wrong in this age. Although there is a wide spectrum of oppression, LSM definitely dabbles in it, and the Lord was all about freeing those oppressed.

I disagree. We are responsible to say something, but once we do we are free to move on. I love chrysolite, chalcedony and sardonyx most of all. Few saints know anything about these stones. They have helped me in my spiritual walk. I love RG's book on pray reading, that also has helped me tremendously, again a hidden gem that few saints know anything about. I loved the songs that we wrote much more than the ones WL did. I loved writing the book. After the first draft I realized I had quoted almost every book in the Bible, so I did an index, found the books that were not quoted and that helped me round out my book. The outline of the book is Wesley's hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing". It was a great experience, LSM not publishing did not in the slightest damage that. The Lord says that you will know a tree by its fruit, I feel that the fruit of LSM reveals the tree that it is. That revelation is a blessing. If you feel it is a corrupt tree then simply steer clear of it.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Are you a church kid (either born one or come into the LCs at a young age)? Or did your time there occur as an adult? I believe this makes a difference.

I reshared my experience, UntoHim moved it to my blog, and there I deleted it because I didn't want it there.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know someone who touched the church as an adult, went to some meetings and listened to some training messages, and said "I don't agree with enough things they say, goodbye", and left. He came in as an adult, as a young person he was allowed to think critically and make decisions based on what he clearly saw, and knew from life experience that this WASN'T "the center of God's move on the earth" and he was therefore free to leave. So he did. A blip in his life..

Not my experience. I was in the LC for 20 years, served in Irving for 18 months building the hall, served in FTTT for 8 years. Church in Houston and Church in NYC.

Originally Posted by Trapped

This seemingly normal freedom of thought is a foreign thing for me and the type of normal psychological life that I was cheated of, envy very much, and am working hard to attain even as I have very few models around me to pattern after.

Not my experience. I never gave up my freedom of thought and the persecution was probably due to that but no one would speak openly.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have the oracle of God, the one man releasing God's up-to-date speaking on the earth, this gem of a difficult to understand old wise Chinese man that for some reason only our little group sees as the minister of the age and the rest of the millions of Christians don't which must mean we are special and chosen and really in the center of the great wheel while everyone else in dark Christianity is flying off the spokes as we crush them.......telling you "truthfully that there is no light in other books", and you are a young impressionable kid who has grown up being conditioned in every way that you must believe the indisputable truth that is being spoken to you from God's lips through a Chinese accent to your ears......there is a problem. And it's a problem that requires that some people speak up.

Again, not my experience. From the time I was 12 I wanted to know what the Bible said and felt the book was locked up and secret. I didn't care about "WL being the oracle" or "the prophet". All I wanted was to be able to open the Bible to any page and read it.

If you have been wronged you have to deal with it, but dealing with it includes saying "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". I have fulfilled my responsibility to point out your sins and am now moving on with my life in the full assurance that Jesus is Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I recall one time as a kid I really liked a certain band. Very innocuous music, some unique and varied skills within the group, focused on the technical aspects and tight singing abilities, not sinful lyrics, etc. (Think, like, someone who plays a stringed instrument liking Yo Yo Ma's music). I got it in my head one day to see if I could get the band to play at a concert hall in my city. I got really pumped about the idea and was excited about something for the first time in a long time. I made the mistake of telling one of my parents my idea, thinking they'd share my excitement and support me. Wrong. What I received was a tight-lipped, "Trapped.....do you think the Lord would have you promote this band?"

I was crushed. I mean, crushed. I mean, internally obliterated. Searing shame. The excitement and light in my eyes that hadn't been there in so long anyway went out in a cold wind, and because the Lord was invoked I felt like I was such an evil and sinful person for just wanting to make a few phone calls to some venues to suggest this cool group. This greatly affected my view of God for years and years and years. Along with all the other subtle and overt messages in the church I received that God didn't like to see me smile, this cemented it.

Trapped, thanks much for sharing your testimony here. (Perhaps on the Intro threads it would be more visible to help others like yourself.)

Your story also has tremendous value to help others like myself understand what happened to our children, the lost 2nd generation, who seemed to only receive endless laws and legalism, rather than a living faith, trust, and love towards our heavenly Father.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

You should try it sometime but I'll give you fair warning... were you to make a habit out of it this forum will beat you back like a mangy dog.

By saying the other authors are "not published by LSM" means you do not understand the the term "imprint" as relates to a publisher.

An imprint is a trade name of a publisher but its still published by the publisher.

"An imprint of a publisher is a trade name under which it publishes a work. A single publishing company may have multiple imprints, often using the different names as brands to market works to various demographic consumer segments.[1] Wikipedia

In this case Affirmation & Critique is an imprint of LSM. One cannot say LSM is not the publisher of its imprints. You could say that LSM segments the market and publishes under different imprints to reach said market.... that is, publications produced that are fit for purpose. But it cannot be said that a publisher that publishes its imprints is not the publisher of its imprints. That is not logical and is not based on fact and is a distinction without difference.

McDonough is published by LSM, Ministry Magazine is published by LSM, .... and not just print but video and audio are also produced by LSM. Not as some claim that "speakings and writings of Witness Lee (and a scant little of Nee where it proof texts and confirms Lee)". As we speak I am staring at a 62 Volume Set by Watchman Nee published by LSM. Hardly "scant little" so the whole argument to cast LSM as exclusively publishing one author and imposing those writings on local churches is a misunderstanding at best.

Drake

Ah, sorry, I must have skipped over the portion in the Bible that talks about imprints and it's relevance to........oh, nothing.

Drake, the recent Collected Works of Witness Lee alone is 136 volumes. If we assume each volume is 1 inch wide, that is over 11 LINEAR FEET and I believe it's actually quite a bit more than that. Add in all of the rest of Lee's books (and throw in Nee's, too, he's got Lee standing on his shoulders so they are inseparable as far as I'm concerned), and you have the multiple BOOKCASES worth (100? 120? 150 linear feet? I think that is conservative) of Nee/Lee's repertoire found in many saints' homes. Tell me how significant the, shall we be generous, 8 inches (? willing to be corrected here) of McDonough or JPL or Aff Crit are in comparison. They are not a talking point here, sorry. How many HWMR have quotes from McDonough in them? Have you ever heard someone refer to passages from "the ministry" and you turn around and see they actually have a JPL book in their hand?

Your option 1 "trumpeting" these insignificant number of other authors as a percentage of LSM's publication just isn't relevant. They are a sneeze, an afterthought, a tiny sliver and are not part of the "practical expression" (to borrow another meaningless phrase) of the one publication that is absolutely dominated by Nee/Lee.

Your option 2 suggesting there are 2, 3, 4 publication works is not supported by "the One Publication" itself and doesn't go anywhere.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Ah, sorry, I must have skipped over the portion in the Bible that talks about imprints and it's relevance to........oh, nothing.

Trapped,

Of course it is relevant to this discussion. You made an erroneous assertion that A&C was not published by LSM so it didn't count as being part of the One Publication. LSM publishes A&C.... it just doesn't fit your narrative around the "One Publication".

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake, the recent Collected Works of Witness Lee alone is 136 volumes. If we assume each volume is 1 inch wide, that is over 11 LINEAR FEET and I believe it's actually quite a bit more than that. Add in all of the rest of Lee's books (and throw in Nee's, too, he's got Lee standing on his shoulders so they are inseparable as far as I'm concerned), and you have the multiple BOOKCASES worth (100? 120? 150 linear feet? I think that is conservative) of Nee/Lee's repertoire found in many saints' homes. Tell me how significant the, shall we be generous, 8 inches (? willing to be corrected here) of McDonough or JPL or Aff Crit are in comparison. They are not a talking point here, sorry. How many HWMR have quotes from McDonough in them? Have you ever heard someone refer to passages from "the ministry" and you turn around and see they actually have a JPL book in their hand?

You're estimates of 100 to 150 linear feet are way off... try 20 linear feet of Brother Lee and Brother Nee.... and so if your point is that LSM publishes primarily the works of those two brothers vs. others then the answer is ... OF COURSE! No one claims any different... why I conveyed that very idea in an earlier post. I even went a little further than that... I said LSM published a "genre" meaning the body of work published by LSM was of the same character and train of thought. Oh, but "genre" was untenable.. no, the argument from "some" went that the One Publication was exclusively about one author, Witness Lee, with a smattering of supporting documents from Watchman Nee. A utterly erroneous assertion. Therefore, if your criticism is that then we have nothing more to discuss... we are done... case closed...mission accomplished. Trapped and Drake agree totally that LSM publishes primarily the works of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and others of that "genre".

Originally Posted by Trapped

Your option 1 "trumpeting" these insignificant number of other authors as a percentage of LSM's publication just isn't relevant. They are a sneeze, an afterthought, a tiny sliver and are not part of the "practical expression" (to borrow another meaningless phrase) of the one publication that is absolutely dominated by Nee/Lee.

Your option 2 suggesting there are 2, 3, 4 publication works is not supported by "the One Publication" itself and doesn't go anywhere.

But were not done. The sum total of those other LSM publications on my shelf are about 5 linear feet. But I probably do not have everything... in fact, I'm sure I do not. And to refute an earlier allegation that members of the local churches in good standing must not have other authors except those published by LSM I have another 20 linear feet of non-LSM authors. I am not alone either.

Therefore, the answer is Option 1. There is one publication, primarily of two authors by volume, but includes many other authors of the same genre. No one is forced to only read LSM publications, no one is forced to buy LSM publications, and no church must buy LSM publications to be considered a local church. A local church's standing is not based on whether they read the ministry or not. Brothers and sisters can choose to go to LSM sponsored conferences and trainings or not.

This is a volunteer army.

I understand this does not fit the narrative of this forum nor your concepts ......but the facts are there along with Brother Lee's teaching on it. Read the base note again and his statements on this.

Now you will argue... but there are contradictory statements... so we'll discuss those and see how contradictory they really are.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course it is relevant to this discussion. You made an erroneous assertion that A&C was not published by LSM so it didn't count as being part of the One Publication. LSM publishes A&C.... it just doesn't fit your narrative around the "One Publication".

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

This is my fault; I meant to imply by the rest of my post that even if LSM is the publisher of these other works (and I am happy to grant that via imprint), it still doesn't change the outcome. I re-address that in the maroon quote further down this post. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

Originally Posted by Drake

You're estimates of 100 to 150 linear feet are way off... try 20 linear feet of Brother Lee and Brother Nee.... and so if your point is that LSM publishes primarily the works of those two brothers vs. others then the answer is ... OF COURSE! No one claims any different... why I conveyed that very idea in an earlier post. I even went a little further than that... I said LSM published a "genre" meaning the body of work published by LSM was of the same character and train of thought. Oh, but "genre" was untenable.. no, the argument from "some" went that the One Publication was exclusively about one author, Witness Lee, with a smattering of supporting documents from Watchman Nee. A utterly erroneous assertion. Therefore, if your criticism is that then we have nothing more to discuss... we are done... case closed...mission accomplished. Trapped and Drake agree totally that LSM publishes primarily the works of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and others of that "genre".

Nah, it's not way off. I am quite literally thinking of my own home growing up and the 4 floor-to-ceiling bookshelves approximately 4 feet wide each with 8 shelves each. These were the Nee and Lee bookshelves. They were organized by title, and as a kid I made the joke to my family asking why we didn't organize by author. 4 bookshelves x 8 shelves each x 4 feet wide = 128. I granted that in the calculation maybe we had a few duplicates or maybe we didn't have absolutely every Nee/Lee publication out there, so I gave a range of 100-150 feet. I saw those bookshelves with my own eyes for decades, sorry not sorry.

Although I don't have time to scroll through to source it, I am not the one who argued that it was only Lee exclusively.

Originally Posted by Drake

But we're not done. The sum total of those other LSM publications on my shelf are about 5 linear feet. But I probably do not have everything... in fact, I'm sure I do not. And to refute an earlier allegation that members of the local churches in good standing must not have other authors except those published by LSM I have another 20 linear feet of non-LSM authors. I am not alone either.

I am fine to grant the 5 linear feet; I did say I was happy to be corrected because I much prefer to deal with the facts. But 5/100 or 5/150 is 3-5%. And I have NEVER seen those 3-5% show up in any conference, training, sharing, HWMR, outline, message, anything. In the church life usage and vernacular they are not considered part of "the ministry". As I stated before, they are insignificant to the point of irrelevance and their tiny existence doesn't negate or undo the rest of the points in this thread, or the point I make using the maroon quote below.

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore, the answer is Option 1. There is one publication, primarily of two authors by volume, but includes many other authors of the same genre.

As I quoted from DCP in a previous post: One publication means the "publication of the ministry materials of [Watchman Nee and Witness Lee]" as well as the "ongoing ministry in the Lord's recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers" ( Publication Work in the Lord's Recovery, p. 5).

My point in quoting that is this: even if there are other authors, even if there are other pubs, "one publication" = Nee/Lee. That is the explicitly stated definition. It is NOT "anything that LSM publishes". It is Nee and Lee. The "ongoing ministry" is regurgitated Nee/Lee, so there is no thread to chase there. The phrase used to describe other authors is "other kinds of publications". They aren't part of the one publication.

If the churches are to be restricted to the "one publication" (Nee/Lee), then the other authors and pubs aren't relevant. They don't exist because they are quite literally not part of the one publication to which the churches are restricted.

Originally Posted by Drake

No one is forced to only read LSM publications, no one is forced to buy LSM publications, and no church must buy LSM publications to be considered a local church. A local church's standing is not based on whether they read the ministry or not. Brothers and sisters can choose to go to LSM sponsored conferences and trainings or not.

This is a volunteer army.

This does not bear out in real life. I will leave that to the others who have already proven this repeatedly by the telling of their own experience.

This is not a volunteer army. The church is the army. The bride is the army. If you are saved, you are part of the church, the bride, and you are thus part of the army. If you have a Nee/Lee splintering within the Lord's army, well.......yikes. I'll leave it at that.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

P.S. I will give credit to the fact that Mary E. McDonough's book is listed on ministrybooks.org, but it is like a drop in the ocean, come on.

Originally Posted by Drake

Why.....of course! That is why they PUBLISH those writings.

Isn't your objection that there is ONE Publication? If they publish Brother Nee, Brother Lee, Mary McDonough, some writings of Jessie Penn Lewis, other authors,

Sorry brother, you cannot have it both ways. Either there is ONE Publication with many authors or there are many Publications for many authors.

Not sure if this is on topic so freely ignore if so wished: but why publish McDonough and Penn-Lewis if women aren't allowed to teach? Sorry, brother, but you cannot have it both ways. Either women are not allowed to teach, or they are. It appears hypocritical if they are allowed when you can use them to prop yourself up, and dis-allowed otherwise.

Sorry for the intrusion. Please continue.

[aron]

Where does it say that one trumpet is required for one certain and clear sound? Why can't many trumpets make one sound? I think of "the sound of many waters" from Revelation 14:2. You have many waters, each making a sound, but they blend together to make one sound. John didn't seem to object to multiple sources for one sound. Why should we?

Conversely the externally derived, one-source-required-for-oneness notion seems a lot like the "oneness" of the Great Harlot, Mystery Babylon. There, they require that everyone have the one seal, else you can't buy and sell. Sounds a lot like a religious book publisher trying to prevent anyone else in the church from publishing. Or is that just a coincidence.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Where does it say that one trumpet is required for one certain and clear sound? Why can't many trumpets make one sound? I think of "the sound of many waters" from Revelation 14:2. You have many waters, each making a sound, but they blend together to make one sound. John didn't seem to object to multiple sources for one sound. Why should we?

Conversely the externally derived, one-source-required-for-oneness notion seems a lot like the "oneness" of the Great Harlot, Mystery Babylon. There, they require that everyone have the one seal, else you can't buy and sell. Sounds a lot like a religious book publisher trying to prevent anyone else in the church from publishing. Or is that just a coincidence.

Having only one trumpet, one sound, one voice reminds me of Babel, where God said, "Behold they are one people, with one language, and this is what they begin to do . . ." (Gen. 11.6)

Ironically, it is totalitarian regimes which also demand one voice, one speaking, one opinion, one publication, etc. Freedom of thought and opinion is a threat to controlling leaders.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ironically, it is totalitarian regimes which also demand one voice, one speaking, one opinion, one publication, etc. Freedom of thought and opinion is a threat to controlling leaders.

This is the "oneness" of the heathen, which eventually finds its apogee in the Mystery Babylon; "brothers, it should not be so with you".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Not sure if this is on topic so freely ignore if so wished: but why publish McDonough and Penn-Lewis if women aren't allowed to teach? Sorry, brother, but you cannot have it both ways. Either women are not allowed to teach, or they are. It appears hypocritical if they are allowed when you can use them to prop yourself up, and dis-allowed otherwise.

Sorry for the intrusion. Please continue.

Dead women are allowed to teach.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dead women are allowed to teach.

So are dead dudes who lived hundreds of years ago!
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So are dead dudes who lived hundreds of years ago!
-

Who were then canonized by Lee as MOTA's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who were then canonized by Lee as MOTA's.

Reminds of Jesus' "You stone the prophets, then build them sepulchres" - none of these 'MOTAS' would be allowed to minister today in the local churches of Lee

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dead women are allowed to teach.

This slayed me

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Not sure if this is on topic so freely ignore if so wished:

It's not. So ok.

thanks
Drake