Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Ah, sorry, I must have skipped over the portion in the Bible that talks about imprints and it's relevance to........oh, nothing.

Trapped,

Of course it is relevant to this discussion. You made an erroneous assertion that A&C was not published by LSM so it didn't count as being part of the One Publication. LSM publishes A&C.... it just doesn't fit your narrative around the "One Publication".

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake, the recent Collected Works of Witness Lee alone is 136 volumes. If we assume each volume is 1 inch wide, that is over 11 LINEAR FEET and I believe it's actually quite a bit more than that. Add in all of the rest of Lee's books (and throw in Nee's, too, he's got Lee standing on his shoulders so they are inseparable as far as I'm concerned), and you have the multiple BOOKCASES worth (100? 120? 150 linear feet? I think that is conservative) of Nee/Lee's repertoire found in many saints' homes. Tell me how significant the, shall we be generous, 8 inches (? willing to be corrected here) of McDonough or JPL or Aff Crit are in comparison. They are not a talking point here, sorry. How many HWMR have quotes from McDonough in them? Have you ever heard someone refer to passages from "the ministry" and you turn around and see they actually have a JPL book in their hand?

You're estimates of 100 to 150 linear feet are way off... try 20 linear feet of Brother Lee and Brother Nee.... and so if your point is that LSM publishes primarily the works of those two brothers vs. others then the answer is ... OF COURSE! No one claims any different... why I conveyed that very idea in an earlier post. I even went a little further than that... I said LSM published a "genre" meaning the body of work published by LSM was of the same character and train of thought. Oh, but "genre" was untenable.. no, the argument from "some" went that the One Publication was exclusively about one author, Witness Lee, with a smattering of supporting documents from Watchman Nee. A utterly erroneous assertion. Therefore, if your criticism is that then we have nothing more to discuss... we are done... case closed...mission accomplished. Trapped and Drake agree totally that LSM publishes primarily the works of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and others of that "genre".

Originally Posted by Trapped

Your option 1 "trumpeting" these insignificant number of other authors as a percentage of LSM's publication just isn't relevant. They are a sneeze, an afterthought, a tiny sliver and are not part of the "practical expression" (to borrow another meaningless phrase) of the one publication that is absolutely dominated by Nee/Lee.

Your option 2 suggesting there are 2, 3, 4 publication works is not supported by "the One Publication" itself and doesn't go anywhere.

But were not done. The sum total of those other LSM publications on my shelf are about 5 linear feet. But I probably do not have everything... in fact, I'm sure I do not. And to refute an earlier allegation that members of the local churches in good standing must not have other authors except those published by LSM I have another 20 linear feet of non-LSM authors. I am not alone either.

Therefore, the answer is Option 1. There is one publication, primarily of two authors by volume, but includes many other authors of the same genre. No one is forced to only read LSM publications, no one is forced to buy LSM publications, and no church must buy LSM publications to be considered a local church. A local church's standing is not based on whether they read the ministry or not. Brothers and sisters can choose to go to LSM sponsored conferences and trainings or not.

This is a volunteer army.

I understand this does not fit the narrative of this forum nor your concepts ......but the facts are there along with Brother Lee's teaching on it. Read the base note again and his statements on this.

Now you will argue... but there are contradictory statements... so we'll discuss those and see how contradictory they really are.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course it is relevant to this discussion. You made an erroneous assertion that A&C was not published by LSM so it didn't count as being part of the One Publication. LSM publishes A&C.... it just doesn't fit your narrative around the "One Publication".

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

This is my fault; I meant to imply by the rest of my post that even if LSM is the publisher of these other works (and I am happy to grant that via imprint), it still doesn't change the outcome. I re-address that in the maroon quote further down this post. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

Originally Posted by Drake

You're estimates of 100 to 150 linear feet are way off... try 20 linear feet of Brother Lee and Brother Nee.... and so if your point is that LSM publishes primarily the works of those two brothers vs. others then the answer is ... OF COURSE! No one claims any different... why I conveyed that very idea in an earlier post. I even went a little further than that... I said LSM published a "genre" meaning the body of work published by LSM was of the same character and train of thought. Oh, but "genre" was untenable.. no, the argument from "some" went that the One Publication was exclusively about one author, Witness Lee, with a smattering of supporting documents from Watchman Nee. A utterly erroneous assertion. Therefore, if your criticism is that then we have nothing more to discuss... we are done... case closed...mission accomplished. Trapped and Drake agree totally that LSM publishes primarily the works of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and others of that "genre".

Nah, it's not way off. I am quite literally thinking of my own home growing up and the 4 floor-to-ceiling bookshelves approximately 4 feet wide each with 8 shelves each. These were the Nee and Lee bookshelves. They were organized by title, and as a kid I made the joke to my family asking why we didn't organize by author. 4 bookshelves x 8 shelves each x 4 feet wide = 128. I granted that in the calculation maybe we had a few duplicates or maybe we didn't have absolutely every Nee/Lee publication out there, so I gave a range of 100-150 feet. I saw those bookshelves with my own eyes for decades, sorry not sorry.

Although I don't have time to scroll through to source it, I am not the one who argued that it was only Lee exclusively.

Originally Posted by Drake

But we're not done. The sum total of those other LSM publications on my shelf are about 5 linear feet. But I probably do not have everything... in fact, I'm sure I do not. And to refute an earlier allegation that members of the local churches in good standing must not have other authors except those published by LSM I have another 20 linear feet of non-LSM authors. I am not alone either.

I am fine to grant the 5 linear feet; I did say I was happy to be corrected because I much prefer to deal with the facts. But 5/100 or 5/150 is 3-5%. And I have NEVER seen those 3-5% show up in any conference, training, sharing, HWMR, outline, message, anything. In the church life usage and vernacular they are not considered part of "the ministry". As I stated before, they are insignificant to the point of irrelevance and their tiny existence doesn't negate or undo the rest of the points in this thread, or the point I make using the maroon quote below.

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore, the answer is Option 1. There is one publication, primarily of two authors by volume, but includes many other authors of the same genre.

As I quoted from DCP in a previous post: One publication means the "publication of the ministry materials of [Watchman Nee and Witness Lee]" as well as the "ongoing ministry in the Lord's recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers" ( Publication Work in the Lord's Recovery, p. 5).

My point in quoting that is this: even if there are other authors, even if there are other pubs, "one publication" = Nee/Lee. That is the explicitly stated definition. It is NOT "anything that LSM publishes". It is Nee and Lee. The "ongoing ministry" is regurgitated Nee/Lee, so there is no thread to chase there. The phrase used to describe other authors is "other kinds of publications". They aren't part of the one publication.

If the churches are to be restricted to the "one publication" (Nee/Lee), then the other authors and pubs aren't relevant. They don't exist because they are quite literally not part of the one publication to which the churches are restricted.

Originally Posted by Drake

No one is forced to only read LSM publications, no one is forced to buy LSM publications, and no church must buy LSM publications to be considered a local church. A local church's standing is not based on whether they read the ministry or not. Brothers and sisters can choose to go to LSM sponsored conferences and trainings or not.

This is a volunteer army.

This does not bear out in real life. I will leave that to the others who have already proven this repeatedly by the telling of their own experience.

This is not a volunteer army. The church is the army. The bride is the army. If you are saved, you are part of the church, the bride, and you are thus part of the army. If you have a Nee/Lee splintering within the Lord's army, well.......yikes. I'll leave it at that.

Trapped

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Nah, it's not way off. I am quite literally thinking of my own home growing up....

Wait.... I actually measured it with a tape measure when you said 100 to 150 feet. Its 20 linear feet.


I'll come back to the rest of your post shortly..... being called away.


Thanks,
Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wait.... I actually measured it with a tape measure when you said 100 to 150 feet. Its 20 linear feet.

I'll come back to the rest of your post shortly..... being called away.

Thanks,
Drake

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.

Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.


By the way, we are quite far away from the original line of why does the One Pub repeatedly say "in the Lord's recovery" if it is not about the Lord's recovery.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.

Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.

Many messages were firstly outlines, then meeting notes and handouts, then loose Life Study form, then soft bound Life Study, then hardbound Green Volume Life Study. Multiply that by two when some members married. Old-timers, those loyal ones who could afford the "Standing Order," literally had 4 or more sets of printed messages from the same spoken message. Add to that the way LSM editors could expand each spoken message into 2 or more printed messages by adding in footnotes etc., and you get lots of fluff.

When my sewers backed up after a monster storm in 2007, it was my boxes of Ministry books on the basement floor that took the brunt of it. Was that sovereign of the Lord?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When my sewers backed up after a monster storm in 2007, it was my boxes of Ministry books on the basement floor that took the brunt of it. Was that sovereign of the Lord?

In the local church meeting hall near where I lived, in a back room, there were boxes and boxes of "rainbow booklets" left over from some long-abandoned "flow from Anaheim".

Notice that the "flow" was not local. It didn't arise as local demand but as alien imposition.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In the local church meeting hall near where I lived, in a back room, there were boxes and boxes of "rainbow booklets" left over from some long-abandoned "flow from Anaheim".

Notice that the "flow" was not local. It didn't arise as local demand but as alien imposition.

I remember this topic being addressed in a "brothers meeting."

The Cleveland Book Service complained about all the materials stacking up, the saints cancelling their standing orders, and the books just could not be sold. Philip Lee at LSM refused to let the church in Cleveland reduce the quota number of books they received almost weekly.

Yet initially Witness Lee promised that each church would "make money" to cover their expenses, by only charging them 90% of the saints' retail costs. As a miniature book-selling "business," this book service was eventually broke and declaring bankruptcy. Consequently LSM was upset and owed huge back payments for books the church never asked for, and the saints were not buying.

Titus Chu basically "gulped" and instructed the church to send LSM some more money.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.
....
Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.

Trapped,

The collected works of Brother Lee are about 10 linear feet. I have them and measured them. Those include almost every thing you remember as stand alone books. Then there are the life studies and crystallization studies and the conclusion messages. The collected works of watchman Nee are almost 5 linear ft.

Net net 20 linear feet. Those are the unique writings... I have several copies of the big red bomb (Christ vs Religion) but do not count each one... but anything that is now in the collected works I do not count because that would be double or triple counting. Married couples often brought same books ....

But look, it doesn’t really matter if it 5, 10, 20, 100, or 150 does it? Your point does not change at 20 feet and neither will mine if it is 150. So believe it, remember it, anyway it sets well with you. I gave you the actual measurements according to a tape measure.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Let’s take a little break from linear feet, imprints, genres, tape measures, book shelves and the like. I dug back and found this post by Koinonia way back in December of 2016 (where ya been bro, your insightful and spot on topic posts are greatly missed!)

There are several facets to this One Publication declaration. First and foremost, as it always is when it comes to the person and work of Witness Lee, it is a matter of control and censorship. Again, the control and censorship is exercised upon the members at the most practical level possible – that is at the meetings of the local churches, at the bi-annual trainings and various regional conferences, and at the most intimate level, the little publications meant for daily “devotional” readings for Morning Watch. Does anyone really think that the average Local Churcher is pray-reading Mary McDonough or Jessie Penn Lewis?

Then there is the matter of keeping the Living Stream coffers topped off. This poses a little bit of a dilemma for the powers that be over on La Palma Ave in Anaheim. After all, these guys are supposed to be dispensing the “Up-To-Date-Speaking” of God himself. The problem is that the only person on earth (since 1945 anyway) who did the up-to-date speaking has been dead and buried over there at Grace Gardens for over 20 years now. What to do? What to do? I know! We'll just keep reprinting the same stuff over and over and over again. Of course we'll have to spend a few shekels on different colors, booklet sizes and formats...but a publisher's gotta do what a publisher's gotta do!

Originally Posted by Koinonia

LSM is adept at repackaging the same things over and over again in various formats. But really the whole enterprise is running out of steam. A flyer has recently been circulated among LC members that is titled "Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee" (scheduled: 2018). Here is a corresponding website. It is difficult for me to understand how people can get excited about this...

The LSM online bookstore is currently featuring a softbound copy of the Recovery Version of the Ezekiel (the upcoming Winter Training will begin the Crystallization-study of Ezekiel). Of course, the Recovery Version of Ezekiel has already been published in other formats for years. But diehards will buy multiple copies of the single volume, I'm sure. In recent years, LSM has also experimented with gimmicky things like pocket versions of various Life-studies ("Dwarsligger" format), in an apparent attempt at providing tired (and younger) members with new materials.

The dilemma for LSM is that they have no good ways to grow (or even maintain) book sales figures. They are mostly limited to a captive audience of current LC members. Once they really do put out the Collected Works of Witness Lee, they will have no new material--other than new editions of periodical publications like Holy Word for Morning Revival and Ministry Magazine. So, they will be stuck pushing members to buy copies of the same books to give away to other people, as well as coming up with newly packaged formats of the same existing publications. You can already see this happening.

-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Then there is the matter of keeping the Living Stream coffers topped off.

Brother, there comes a point in time when it is probably wiser to let willful ignorance go unchallenged. But I'm not the wiser yet so I will say this much.

For years this profit/monetary motivation idea has been bantered about in this forum under your management. And yet if profit/money were the motive then LSM would not offer its publications for free at no cost at LSM.ORG. That breaks the business model you allege ... or is that not obvious? The charge that LSM wants to top off coffers is undermined by the easy availability of its publications on the internet for free. So your profit/monetary motivation is not even logical.

Therefore, what could be a possible motivation for a ministry to make their publications available for free? Hmmmm, let's think a moment..... how about .... Mission.

Now if I have misunderstood your belief then please clarify.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

.. anything that is now in the collected works I do not count because that would be double or triple counting...

But Trapped is measuring the double- and triple-counted books. That's the point, no? They are repeatedly repackaging the same material, and re-selling it to the same folks that bought it the first time. And there's still room for a "High Peaks" collection? How about an "On Marriage" tome? Maybe someone hasn't yet heard of the "little grinders". Get another bookshelf!

[Trapped]

aron, exactly. If it was published, it counts. Those bookcases aren't an illusion.

Drake, that is fine if the CWWL are 10 linear feet. I heard the 20 through the typically trustworthy grapevine and just passed that along. But as you well noted, the measurement doesn't change my point. And you didn't address my main point: that if "1pub" is defined by DCP as Nee/Lee, the other authors or the other pubs don't matter at all since the directive is to be "restricted to 1pub"....i.e. restricted to Nee/Lee.

Koinonia's point, brought to us by UntoHim, is a great one - what do you do when the only person through whom God speaks (apparently ) and the source of the only material you can produce......dies? AND your tiny market is saturated?! Whoops!!

This would not be a problem to anyone but the employees of that hapless entity EXCEPT that this publisher is the source of God's "up-to-date move on the earth". This means that God can only move within the confines of a dead man's works, and the poor saints who follow that move as if it is the only move of God end up following something rotten rather than living. And people pay the price with the years of their lives.

To pass off that "restricted to one publication" is healthy or of God just makes me mad.

Trapped