Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Nah, it's not way off. I am quite literally thinking of my own home growing up....

Wait.... I actually measured it with a tape measure when you said 100 to 150 feet. Its 20 linear feet.


I'll come back to the rest of your post shortly..... being called away.


Thanks,
Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wait.... I actually measured it with a tape measure when you said 100 to 150 feet. Its 20 linear feet.

I'll come back to the rest of your post shortly..... being called away.

Thanks,
Drake

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.

Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.


By the way, we are quite far away from the original line of why does the One Pub repeatedly say "in the Lord's recovery" if it is not about the Lord's recovery.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.

Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.

Many messages were firstly outlines, then meeting notes and handouts, then loose Life Study form, then soft bound Life Study, then hardbound Green Volume Life Study. Multiply that by two when some members married. Old-timers, those loyal ones who could afford the "Standing Order," literally had 4 or more sets of printed messages from the same spoken message. Add to that the way LSM editors could expand each spoken message into 2 or more printed messages by adding in footnotes etc., and you get lots of fluff.

When my sewers backed up after a monster storm in 2007, it was my boxes of Ministry books on the basement floor that took the brunt of it. Was that sovereign of the Lord?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When my sewers backed up after a monster storm in 2007, it was my boxes of Ministry books on the basement floor that took the brunt of it. Was that sovereign of the Lord?

In the local church meeting hall near where I lived, in a back room, there were boxes and boxes of "rainbow booklets" left over from some long-abandoned "flow from Anaheim".

Notice that the "flow" was not local. It didn't arise as local demand but as alien imposition.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In the local church meeting hall near where I lived, in a back room, there were boxes and boxes of "rainbow booklets" left over from some long-abandoned "flow from Anaheim".

Notice that the "flow" was not local. It didn't arise as local demand but as alien imposition.

I remember this topic being addressed in a "brothers meeting."

The Cleveland Book Service complained about all the materials stacking up, the saints cancelling their standing orders, and the books just could not be sold. Philip Lee at LSM refused to let the church in Cleveland reduce the quota number of books they received almost weekly.

Yet initially Witness Lee promised that each church would "make money" to cover their expenses, by only charging them 90% of the saints' retail costs. As a miniature book-selling "business," this book service was eventually broke and declaring bankruptcy. Consequently LSM was upset and owed huge back payments for books the church never asked for, and the saints were not buying.

Titus Chu basically "gulped" and instructed the church to send LSM some more money.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Cleveland Book Service complained about all the materials stacking up, the saints cancelling their standing orders, and the books just could not be sold. Philip Lee at LSM refused to let the church in Cleveland reduce the quota number of books they received almost weekly.

Yet initially Witness Lee promised that each church would "make money" to cover their expenses, by only charging them 90% of the saints' retail costs. As a miniature book-selling "business," this book service was eventually broke and declaring bankruptcy. Consequently LSM was upset and owed huge back payments for books the church never asked for, and the saints were not buying.

Titus Chu basically "gulped" and instructed the church to send LSM some more money.

LSM didn't force you to read the materials, just to buy them! Quit complaining!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

LSM didn't force you to read the materials, just to buy them! Quit complaining!

Too funny!


There was a time, back in the 90's when LSM started shaming us for letting all those books "collect dust" on our shelves. Kind of irked me since I never asked for all of those books in the first place, and I had to buy extra bookshelves to hold them. So I cancelled my standing order.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The Collected Works of Witness Lee that just came out (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/) are alone themselves a little over approximately 20 linear feet, or so I hear. I am not talking about that collection alone. I am talking about all the publications with Nee or Lee's name on them. I understand there is overlap (content in CWWL is found in other books) but I am talking about all the publications. All the repeated "new" versions of old versions that just have a new cover with ambiguous colors and blurry objects rather than the monotone cover of the past. All the HWMR that are pulled from the other books. All the hymnals. All the Bibles. All the various sets. Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Twelve Baskets Full, Life-studies, Crystallization-Studies, Collected Works, New Believers' Series, Conclusions of the NT, Elders' Trainings, and all the individual books in between, etc.... i.e. all the publications.
....
Bookcases worth. I see it repeatedly in the saints' homes. It's way more than a combined 20 linear feet.

Trapped,

The collected works of Brother Lee are about 10 linear feet. I have them and measured them. Those include almost every thing you remember as stand alone books. Then there are the life studies and crystallization studies and the conclusion messages. The collected works of watchman Nee are almost 5 linear ft.

Net net 20 linear feet. Those are the unique writings... I have several copies of the big red bomb (Christ vs Religion) but do not count each one... but anything that is now in the collected works I do not count because that would be double or triple counting. Married couples often brought same books ....

But look, it doesn’t really matter if it 5, 10, 20, 100, or 150 does it? Your point does not change at 20 feet and neither will mine if it is 150. So believe it, remember it, anyway it sets well with you. I gave you the actual measurements according to a tape measure.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Let’s take a little break from linear feet, imprints, genres, tape measures, book shelves and the like. I dug back and found this post by Koinonia way back in December of 2016 (where ya been bro, your insightful and spot on topic posts are greatly missed!)

There are several facets to this One Publication declaration. First and foremost, as it always is when it comes to the person and work of Witness Lee, it is a matter of control and censorship. Again, the control and censorship is exercised upon the members at the most practical level possible – that is at the meetings of the local churches, at the bi-annual trainings and various regional conferences, and at the most intimate level, the little publications meant for daily “devotional” readings for Morning Watch. Does anyone really think that the average Local Churcher is pray-reading Mary McDonough or Jessie Penn Lewis?

Then there is the matter of keeping the Living Stream coffers topped off. This poses a little bit of a dilemma for the powers that be over on La Palma Ave in Anaheim. After all, these guys are supposed to be dispensing the “Up-To-Date-Speaking” of God himself. The problem is that the only person on earth (since 1945 anyway) who did the up-to-date speaking has been dead and buried over there at Grace Gardens for over 20 years now. What to do? What to do? I know! We'll just keep reprinting the same stuff over and over and over again. Of course we'll have to spend a few shekels on different colors, booklet sizes and formats...but a publisher's gotta do what a publisher's gotta do!

Originally Posted by Koinonia

LSM is adept at repackaging the same things over and over again in various formats. But really the whole enterprise is running out of steam. A flyer has recently been circulated among LC members that is titled "Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee" (scheduled: 2018). Here is a corresponding website. It is difficult for me to understand how people can get excited about this...

The LSM online bookstore is currently featuring a softbound copy of the Recovery Version of the Ezekiel (the upcoming Winter Training will begin the Crystallization-study of Ezekiel). Of course, the Recovery Version of Ezekiel has already been published in other formats for years. But diehards will buy multiple copies of the single volume, I'm sure. In recent years, LSM has also experimented with gimmicky things like pocket versions of various Life-studies ("Dwarsligger" format), in an apparent attempt at providing tired (and younger) members with new materials.

The dilemma for LSM is that they have no good ways to grow (or even maintain) book sales figures. They are mostly limited to a captive audience of current LC members. Once they really do put out the Collected Works of Witness Lee, they will have no new material--other than new editions of periodical publications like Holy Word for Morning Revival and Ministry Magazine. So, they will be stuck pushing members to buy copies of the same books to give away to other people, as well as coming up with newly packaged formats of the same existing publications. You can already see this happening.

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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Then there is the matter of keeping the Living Stream coffers topped off.

Brother, there comes a point in time when it is probably wiser to let willful ignorance go unchallenged. But I'm not the wiser yet so I will say this much.

For years this profit/monetary motivation idea has been bantered about in this forum under your management. And yet if profit/money were the motive then LSM would not offer its publications for free at no cost at LSM.ORG. That breaks the business model you allege ... or is that not obvious? The charge that LSM wants to top off coffers is undermined by the easy availability of its publications on the internet for free. So your profit/monetary motivation is not even logical.

Therefore, what could be a possible motivation for a ministry to make their publications available for free? Hmmmm, let's think a moment..... how about .... Mission.

Now if I have misunderstood your belief then please clarify.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore, what could be a possible motivation for a ministry to make their publications available for free? Hmmmm, let's think a moment..... how about .... Mission.

And crack dealers who give away free samples must be nice guys, right? Giving away addictive drugs for free, wow. So selfless.

It's Retailing 101. In trade jargon it's known as a "lost leader". But since LSM is a spiritual enterprise, they wouldn't succumb to earthly means, now would they? It's just a coincidence is all.

Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain, furiously pulling the levers.

[UntoHim]

"My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on". - Witness Lee

So I guess everyone is still free to use them....but not for free!

Full Payment
35% Discount*
$16.25 per volume
$2,210 all volumes

Monthly Payments
30% Discount*
$17.50 per volume
$2,380 all volumes

Pretty steep price for a bunch of stuff you already paid for (in some cases people paid over and over again over the past 40+ years.) I don't think there is one jot or tittle in this "collected work" that has not already been merchandised by Lee & Company already. Where is the "Up-To-Date" speaking? Where are the fresh "groceries"?
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

And crack dealers who give away free samples must be nice guys, right? ......

............It's Retailing 101. In trade jargon it's known as a "lost leader".

Seriously aron... crack dealers?

Well let's explore your slanderous comparison for a moment. If a crack dealer gave away as much as you wanted for free and did not charge you a nickel ever for it then what would make you think that the crack dealer was out to make money?

and in Retailing 101 it is called LOSS Leader.... not LOST Leader.... but nevertheless, the business strategy of LOSS Leader does not apply when its all available for free.

The reason your logic is flailing around on this, aron, is because you are trying to fit the facts into your own concepts. They don't fit because your concept on motivation is off the mark. But you are a thoughtful and intelligent man so I'm hopeful that once the real motivation becomes clear to you then you will rebound and make some compelling arguments. At least then we can agree and disagree with rationale based on facts and logic.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And crack dealers who give away free samples must be nice guys, right? Giving away addictive drugs for free, wow. So selfless.

It's Retailing 101. In trade jargon it's known as a "lost leader". But since LSM is a spiritual enterprise, they wouldn't succumb to earthly means, now would they? It's just a coincidence is all.

Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain, furiously pulling the levers.

That would be "loss leader" in marketing, and "lost leader" in the Recovery.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

.. anything that is now in the collected works I do not count because that would be double or triple counting...

But Trapped is measuring the double- and triple-counted books. That's the point, no? They are repeatedly repackaging the same material, and re-selling it to the same folks that bought it the first time. And there's still room for a "High Peaks" collection? How about an "On Marriage" tome? Maybe someone hasn't yet heard of the "little grinders". Get another bookshelf!

[Trapped]

aron, exactly. If it was published, it counts. Those bookcases aren't an illusion.

Drake, that is fine if the CWWL are 10 linear feet. I heard the 20 through the typically trustworthy grapevine and just passed that along. But as you well noted, the measurement doesn't change my point. And you didn't address my main point: that if "1pub" is defined by DCP as Nee/Lee, the other authors or the other pubs don't matter at all since the directive is to be "restricted to 1pub"....i.e. restricted to Nee/Lee.

Koinonia's point, brought to us by UntoHim, is a great one - what do you do when the only person through whom God speaks (apparently ) and the source of the only material you can produce......dies? AND your tiny market is saturated?! Whoops!!

This would not be a problem to anyone but the employees of that hapless entity EXCEPT that this publisher is the source of God's "up-to-date move on the earth". This means that God can only move within the confines of a dead man's works, and the poor saints who follow that move as if it is the only move of God end up following something rotten rather than living. And people pay the price with the years of their lives.

To pass off that "restricted to one publication" is healthy or of God just makes me mad.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This would not be a problem to anyone but the employees of that hapless entity EXCEPT that this publisher is the source of God's "up-to-date move on the earth". This means that God can only move within the confines of a dead man's works, and the poor saints who follow that move as if it is the only move of God end up following something rotten rather than living. And people pay the price with the years of their lives.

To pass off that "restricted to one publication" is healthy or of God just makes me mad.

Given that the Recovery can only publish the books of Nee/Lee...

What made me mad was that certain students of Lee (ie the Super Blendeds) took it upon themselves to become the true and legitimate Re-speakers and Re-printers of Lee, and took it upon themselves to chastise (quarantine /excommunicate) the other students of Lee (ie Chu, Dong, etc.) whom they declared illegitimate.

Should not the actual members of the LC be given the right to choose who more accurately and spiritually ministered these "recovery" truths from the Bible?

Did Apostle Paul go to Corinth and excommunicate Peter and Apollos? Did Apostle Paul determine that only his ministry was the legitimate "re-speaking" of the teachings of Jesus? Did Apostle Paul teach that only his books could be published and read in all the churches?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

aron, exactly. If it was published, it counts. Those bookcases aren't an illusion.

Er... if I have 10 bibles in my library it does not mean that there are 660 books in the Bible!

Here's another thing. To a boy those bookshelves look one way and to a grown man those same bookshelves look different years later. When I visit my childhood places what seemed like a mile away was much closer than I remembered and the house is smaller than I remembered as is the yard. So, in a sense it was an illusion... or rather a relative perception. You saw lots of shelf space looking up and across and transferred those boyhood perceptions to something modern you are not looking at directly (the Collected Works of Witness Lee). Also, loose leaf messages and individual bound books and duplicates take up more space. That is why I went through the steps of actually measuring with a Tape measure the linear footage of CWWL and to provide that new information to you. Rather than concede the point based on the facts you fought to hold on to the proverbial bone with all your might for several posts.

That my friend is instructive and provides a clue why a dialogue such as ours must enter into a labor over every statement. If you insist to hold onto an erroneous view about the linear footage of the CWWL though presented with the actual measured footage of someone who is staring at them then how do we as brothers in the Lord ever hope to find agreement or agreement to disagree on the weightier matters?

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake, that is fine if the CWWL are 10 linear feet. I heard the 20 through the typically trustworthy grapevine and just passed that along. But as you well noted, the measurement doesn't change my point. And you didn't address my main point: that if "1pub" is defined by DCP as Nee/Lee, the other authors or the other pubs don't matter at all since the directive is to be "restricted to 1pub"....i.e. restricted to Nee/Lee.

And so, here again. Let's look at the facts. First, I have provided you with a list of authors besides Brothers Nee and Lee that are published by LSM and under their imprints. Therefore, we know that those writings are included in the publication mission of the ministry else they would not publish them. A strict interpretation of the DCP statement as you are doing would say that 1) DCP/LSM has violated its own mandate by publishing other authors or 2) LSM made an error in publishing other authors (and should cease and desist immediately) , or 3) those other authors are included in the "genre" of writings based on the writings of Nee and Lee. Or if you prefer, it would be accurate to say that the other authors in the genre reinforce, reiterate, or apply the writings of the two primary authors.

There is only one logical answer and that is 3. Your argument that they don't matter is not logical.... else why publish them if they don't matter? It cost money, time, and effort to publish anything. Since when has LSM published anything that they don't think THEY should publish? In fact, that is one of the objections that forum members level against LSM!

The bottom line Trapped is this. Forum members often fall into the fallacy trap of subjective validation. Example of this may be seen in the secular: You believe Russians swung the election for a candidate and so you see Russian bear claws in every thing related to that candidate after that. That is subjective validation. If it is not subjection validation then it is purposeful and willful deceit of oneself and others and though I believe that is often the case in politics I do not readily accept it as the motivation when conversing with brothers such as you. Rather I am convinced that you have a fearful respect for the judgment Christ will assess toward His own for things said and done after they became a Christian as I do also.... in other words, we can expect that our posts will be assessed and a judgement rendered by Him at His coming.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Er... if I have 10 bibles in my library it does not mean that there are 660 books in the Bible!

Here's another thing. To a boy those bookshelves look one way and to a grown man those same bookshelves look different years later. When I visit my childhood places what seemed like a mile away was much closer than I remembered and the house is smaller than I remembered as is the yard. So, in a sense it was an illusion... or rather a relative perception. You saw lots of shelf space looking up and across and transferred those boyhood perceptions to something modern you are not looking at directly (the Collected Works of Witness Lee). Also, loose leaf messages and individual bound books and duplicates take up more space. That is why I went through the steps of actually measuring with a Tape measure the linear footage of CWWL and to provide that new information to you. Rather than concede the point based on the facts you fought to hold on to the proverbial bone with all your might for several posts.

That my friend is instructive and provides a clue why a dialogue such as ours must enter into a labor over every statement. If you insist to hold onto an erroneous view about the linear footage of the CWWL though presented with the actual measured footage of someone who is staring at them then how do we as brothers in the Lord ever hope to find agreement or agreement to disagree on the weightier matters?

Having 10 Bibles means there are 10 separately published works on the shelf. Correct me if I'm wrong, but each new version/edition/repackaged book of LSM's has a new ISBN, no?

I fully understand the phenomenon you describe about boyhood perspective, in fact, I experienced that very thing just recently in visiting my former junior high school. I felt like Gulliver and wondered if the surrounding neighborhood had encroached on the school grounds shrinking it down smaller than I recalled. Kind of surreal actually.

But luckily for me, my parents did not kick me out at 8 years old, or 12, or 15, or 18. I did return home as an adult and have adult memories of the bookcases in question. Standard residential 8-foot floor-to-ceiling heights also do not change and these were floor-to-ceiling bookcases. There were also several of them, so my measurements are pretty accurate.

There was no point to concede - we were talking about different things. I was very clear I was not talking about CWWL alone but about all the publications of Nee and Lee (including different versions, updated editions, same content with new covers, etc) that LSM puts out. You keep pointing to CWWL only but I was talking about the entire publication output of LSM which causes many a shelf to sag across the saints' homes. Like I said in a previous post, I am happy to agree that CWWL is only 10 linear feet.

This is pointless but I've dealt with a number of saints recently who make wild unfounded claims and I'm just sick of it so I'll take the time to write this paragraph. Regarding my insistence on holding an erroneous view: I made a general statement about the entire publication work of LSM. You responded with a general statement about a portion of that body of work (CWWL). We discussed these two differing things for a few posts. My first concrete assertion about CWWL-specific footage was post #346. In your response (355) you stated you actually measured the CWWL. In my response (358) I said it is fine if CWWL are as you measured. No insistence on an erroneous view, sorry.

Originally Posted by Drake

And so, here again. Let's look at the facts. First, I have provided you with a list of authors besides Brothers Nee and Lee that are published by LSM and under their imprints. Therefore, we know that those writings are included in the publication mission of the ministry else they would not publish them. A strict interpretation of the DCP statement as you are doing would say that 1) DCP/LSM has violated its own mandate by publishing other authors or 2) LSM made an error in publishing other authors (and should cease and desist immediately) , or 3) those other authors are included in the "genre" of writings based on the writings of Nee and Lee. Or if you prefer, it would be accurate to say that the other authors in the genre reinforce, reiterate, or apply the writings of the two primary authors.

There is only one logical answer and that is 3. Your argument that they don't matter is not logical.... else why publish them if they don't matter? It cost money, time, and effort to publish anything. Since when has LSM published anything that they don't think THEY should publish? In fact, that is one of the objections that forum members level against LSM!

The bottom line Trapped is this. Forum members often fall into the fallacy trap of subjective validation. Example of this may be seen in the secular: You believe Russians swung the election for a candidate and so you see Russian bear claws in every thing related to that candidate after that. That is subjective validation. If it is not subjection validation then it is purposeful and willful deceit of oneself and others and though I believe that is often the case in politics I do not readily accept it as the motivation when conversing with brothers such as you. Rather I am convinced that you have a fearful respect for the judgment Christ will assess toward His own for things said and done after they became a Christian as I do also.... in other words, we can expect that our posts will be assessed and a judgement rendered by Him at His coming.

Sigh....Drake......I don't know how I can make my point any clearer.

LSM can violate its own mandate and publish Joel Osteen and Rick Warren and my point would still stand.

LSM can make any error and publish other authors and my point would still stand.

The other authors can be in the same genre and my point will still stand.

LSM can publish 95% other authors and only 5% Nee and Lee, and my point will still stand!

My point:
1. There is a set of publications that LSM puts out - Nee, Lee, JPL, McDonough, AffCrit, blended brothers, whatever. Add any others you want. Tip the balance so Nee and Lee are a tiny percentage if you want.

2. Those books are all published by LSM, whether under the LSM name directly or under an imprint.

3. Within that set of publications described above is a subset defined as "one publication". As I've quoted before, "one publication" is defined as "publication of the ministry materials of [Watchman Nee and Witness Lee]"... This is not my definition but that of LSM/DCP, etc.

4. The One Publication document calls the churches to restrict themselves to that subset, to "one publication". I.e. to restrict themselves to and only read Nee and Lee. Whatever is in the original set in point 1 is completely irrelevant ("doesn't matter") because it is not in the subset in point 3. The subset is what the saints in the churches are to be restricted to.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Thanks for threatening the judgment of Christ at me. Classic LC saint move.

Trapped