What is God's Economy?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Welcome to the club.

What about us? You do understand that anyone who leaves the LC has been judged, categorized and "found wanting"? Right? (e.g., "negative", "opposers")

We didn't acquire an appetite either...for being cursed with the end of our walk with Jesus for leaving the "non-recovery".

What is your definition of "real fellowship"? Anything "real" has to be TRUE. We hold all posters to this standard.

We are here to discuss the Local Churches, which includes its so many, vast teachings of hypocrisy. This is what we focus on, because this is the LocalChurchDiscussions.com forum. There is sometimes a little heat in this kitchen.

Nell

It would take me several lifetimes to investigate and understand all that was/is wrong with the Local Churches. I don't have that much time. Do you?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I believe I've been judged, categorized and found wanting. Sorry, lots I could say, but - as said somewhere on here earlier - I have no appetite to continue this type of discussion . . . there are just so many, vast riches of Christ we could focus on and have real fellowship about. Blessings to you. (I do ask that you please try not to categorize me further bro)

StG,

Describing plainly obvious and repeated behavior and facets of behavior is neither judgment nor categorization, bro.

Your response, in which you try to pass blame for simply identifying what you are doing, try to deflect from what's going on, and try to imply that the truth in one part of the Bible is inferior to or is less rich than other parts of the Bible, or that this fellowship is not "real", is a form of gaslighting. You use the phrase "this type of discussion" (contrasted with "riches of Christ" and "real fellowship") in a clearly denigrating and dismissive way. The reality is that the discussion is the type that is highly interested in what the Bible says.

Untangling an abusive doctrine and setting it right so it can set people free from decades of entrapment isn’t “real” fellowship? You’re deceived, bro. Something inside of you doesn’t seem to like hearing that sins are so serious in God's eyes that they deserve the death penalty, and that we are responsible for our actions……rather than simply being able to skip around blaming a piece of fruit for our problems.

You continually tout the riches of Christ, but your behavior has repeatedly been very subtly manipulative......the furthest thing from Christ.

The reason I'm spending continued time on this is for the benefit of current and future readers and lurkers who have probably encountered this kind of thing in the LC. It's a critical part of the mental exit process to be able to see through forms of manipulation, deflection, and blame, particularly when it is done using Christian-sounding phrases.

The reason I keep responding to you is because you keep using "Christ" and flowery spiritual language to avoid the truth. You take a name that should be held in high regard and misuse it for disingenuous purposes. You use the name of the One who is truth in order to avoid truth. It doesn't affect me in the slightest whether you live your life thinking something came from the fruit or not; it's the repeated deceit behind your responses that I won't ignore. You could have responded any number of honest ways without using “Christ” that way, but you kept doing it, over and over again. That behavior......misusing "Christ" to avoid truth.....is what is at the core of the spiritual abuse in the local church. I will never stop calling that kind of behavior out as long as you do it.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by zeek

It would take me several lifetimes to investigate and understand all that was/is wrong with the Local Churches. I don't have that much time. Do you?

zeek,

You're going to need to explain your non-sequitur post. I'm lost as to what you mean.

Trapped

[Trapped]

aron,

Just wanted to say I agree very much with all your postings the last few weeks on God's economy. Obedience to His commands, love God, love your neighbor, give honor to those who are uncomely, care for the needy, eagerness to take care of the poor, widows, hungry, etc.......I absolutely agree that is God's economy as shown in Scripture.

I'm the first to admit I'm so short in those areas.

A few verses after the LC-famous verse on God's economy, Paul says "the end of the charge is love". Some translations say "the goal of the command is love."

In other words, he charged Timothy not to teach the unhealthy things which produce questionings, but to teach the healthy things which produce God's economy. And that charge.....the charge to teach healthy things which produce God's economy.....the end of that charge, Paul says, is love.

The whole point of that charge is love.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

A few verses after the LC-famous verse on God's economy, Paul says "the end of the charge is love". Some translations say "the goal of the command is love."

In other words, he charged Timothy not to teach the unhealthy things which produce questionings, but to teach the healthy things which produce God's economy. And that charge.....the charge to teach healthy things which produce God's economy.....the end of that charge, Paul says, is love.

The whole point of that charge is love.

Right. And love is in doing, not lip service. Love is seen in a pouring-out of oneself. God loved us so much that He sent His only-begotten Son. Jesus loved us so much that while we were yet sinners, he died for us. Now, Paul goes into some length in 2 Cor 8 about how Christ was rich and emptied himself in love, and how the gentile churches can likewise empty themselves. To me this points back to what was stressed by the Jerusalem pillars in Galatians 2, a word that Paul so eagerly assented to: "Remember the poor".

Jesus had taught to lay up for oneself treasures in heaven. Paul was now bringing this message to the Corinthians, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, Macedonians, and Achaeans. The 'economy of man' is to store up on earth, to make safe nests. The 'economy of God' is to give to those who can't repay you, making yourself poor for the benefit of others. Then you'll have riches that moths don't eat, that rust can't corrode, that thieves don't break through and steal. This giving is done in faith, the end result of which is love expressed.

And I imagine that Zacchaeus after donating half his wealth to the poor may still have been fairly rich, who knows? The point is that he was generous, happily giving to ones who couldn't return the investment. The story of the rich man with Lazarus shows the opposite - someone who has abundance, but out of selfishness won't share it with someone who lacks. It's in this light that James' prevarication, "Howl, ye rich" (KJV) makes the most sense - it's not riches of themselves that's the issue, but the selfishness, hoarding, avarice, and injustice.

In his first epistle to the Corinthians Paul was in crisis mode and made his point briefly (16:1-4;cf Rom 15:25-29), but his second letter allowed expansion, and in chapter 8 he did. There Paul said in effect that Christ was rich and for you he became poor; now you can follow suit unto others likewise. This is the economy that Paul was teaching in every church.

By contrast, where's the chapter that Paul wrote on masticating the Processed and Consummated Triune God to become God in life and nature (but not in the Godhead)?

Originally Posted by Trapped

Obedience to His commands, love God, love your neighbor, give honor to those who are uncomely, care for the needy, eagerness to take care of the poor, widows, hungry, etc.......I absolutely agree that is God's economy as shown in Scripture.

I'm the first to admit I'm so short in those areas.

I'm also short. And now that we've seen something, we no longer have the excuse of ignorance. But as fighters we're no longer blindly flailing in air, as Paul put in 1 Cor 9. The forces we fight aren't flesh and blood but disobedient spirits, very adept at masquerade. But we're no longer their patsies.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

In his first epistle to the Corinthians Paul was in crisis mode and made his point briefly, but his second letter allowed expansion, and in chapter 8 he did...

By contrast, where's the chapter that Paul wrote on masticating the Processed and Consummated Triune God to become God in life and nature.

Correction: it's not one but two consecutive chapters in 2 Corinthians. In chapter 7, Paul remarked on the reception of the Corinthian church to his first epistle, via Titus, who'd delivered it, and had reported back to Paul. "What zeal, what repentance!" See, e.g., 2 Cor 7:7

Chapter 8 then starts off with a stated expectation, of the hoped-for effect of the repentance and zeal. Paul mentions the generosity of the Macedonians for "the Lord's people" (v4) and then adds, "see that you also excel in this grace of giving"(v7). Then follows the verses cited earlier, that "for you Christ became poor" (v9) on "one who gathered much had no excess" (v15), and "show these men (Titus et al) proof of your love" (v24). Then chapter 9 continues this theme of giving unabated, for 14 more verses.

So I ask again, where's any section of Paul's writing comparable to this, that lays out the "economy of God" as portrayed by Witness Lee? DCP has some explaining to do.

Add to that, what about Paul "hurrying to be in Jerusalem for the Pentecost" in Acts 20:16? He had the gifts from the gentile churches that he'd mentioned variously in his epistles, that he publicly said in Acts 24:17 were "alms for my nation". The symbolism of that's quite pregnant. "All the nations shall gather and pay tribute for the king" a la Psalm 72:10, 11, and Psalm 102:21, 22.

As I said, Paul took the gospel out of Jerusalem, and the pillars of the church said, "remember the poor", and Paul said that he was eager to do so (Gal 2:10), and now Paul had came back to the city, with the remembrance of the gentile churches for the poor of Jerusalem. This was the race that Paul ran, to proclaim the faith to the ends of the earth, then to tie them back to the source. Look at Ephesians 2 in this light. "You gentiles were once without hope, alienated from Israel, but now you have been brought near, and the two (gentile and Jew) are made one in Christ". This was Paul's mission.

The collection for the poor of Jerusalem was not incidental, to be ignored, as the first few chapters of Acts and Jesus' "give and it shall be given" and "store up treasure in heaven". No, it's all the same story. Faith makes us love, and love makes us generous. Caring is not lip service but action, sharing. And Paul was right in the middle of it, and preaching this "economy of God" to every church.

Anyway I propose this reading of "God's economy" as an alternative to Witness Lee's. I don't say it's the only possible reading, but to me it presents a compelling alternative to the WL version, which I find overly broad, speculative and make-shift. Paul never even read the Apocalypse, so how can the "seven-fold intensified Spirit" be part of this "God's economy"? You're left with the notion that nobody but WL truly understood God's economy - not even Paul. And this manufactured 'vision' goes back to the title WL gave WN in his hagiography: "Seer of the Divine Revelation". WL as WN's spiritual heir also had that gift and title, and could "see the divine revelation" even when Paul could not.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The collection for the poor of Jerusalem was not incidental, to be ignored, as the first few chapters of Acts and Jesus' "give and it shall be given" and "store up treasure in heaven". .. Paul was right in the middle of it, and preaching this "economy of God" to every church.

In post #311 I jokingly referenced the "lost writings of Paul" with 2 Cor 8 and 9 as examples. In the LC, when we'd read about the collection for the poor we'd say, "That's not God's economy", or about the Jerusalem pillars asking Paul to only remember the poor, and his eager assent [!] and then we'd say, "Sorry, not God's economy", or reading the first chapters of Acts, the selling of properties and giving to the apostles, who distributed proceeds to the widows, and we'd say, "Not the Normal Christian Church Life of Watchman Nee." No, in the LC we were on a mystical plane, above the actual doing good to others. In fact if someone made issue it was called "dead works". In FTTA we were told point-blank, "Don't waste your time".

Instead, we focused on a half-verse, 1 Cor 15:45(b), and on writings not penned by Paul, probably not even read by him (John 1:14, Rev 1:4). Somehow this WL construction was the revelation of the age, and yet Paul gave no evidence of teaching this as "God's economy". What an impressive confidence game - we'd fly cross-country or from foreign locales to sit in front of this supposed Seer.

I'm not in agreement with the teaching, but I'm definitely impressed that such a rank con job got pulled on so many otherwise intelligent folks. The genius of the plan was that the incessant shouting made one oblivious to the fact that the slogans we shouted had little Biblical basis. Those warm fuzzies derived from group shouting were probably not the Holy Spirit but something else, verified when we overlooked plain Bible verses, even chapters of Paul's writings, and turned a blind eye to repeated gross sin in the leadership. This doesn't seem like restored or recovered Christianity at all, but some perverse invention. I think of Walter Martin's quote (paraphrased): "The worst cults are those that most closely imitate genuine historical Christian faith expressions when they're actually nothing of the sort".

[aron]

Someone recently asked here, if WL's "Economy of God" made any inroads in Christianity. Did it get taught in any seminars? Did any influential Christian teachers or thinkers validate the work, and recommend it?

Originally Posted by aron

Paul never even read the Apocalypse, so how can the "seven-fold intensified Spirit" be part of this "God's economy"? You're left with the notion that nobody but WL truly understood God's economy - not even Paul... we focused on a half-verse, 1 Cor 15:45(b), and on writings not penned by Paul, probably not even read by him (John 1:14, Rev 1:4). Somehow this WL construction was the revelation of the age, and yet Paul gave no evidence of teaching this as "God's economy"..

Imagine if a graduate student wrote a paper showing that this was "God's economy" as promoted by Paul in the NT era: "Incarnation, inclusion, intensification"... The professor would probably ask, where do Paul's epistles cover these aspects? What basis makes one think that Paul was urging Timothy to stress this theological construct?

The student might respond, "We're shaped like a glove, and a glove is meant to contain a hand", and other folk syllogisms. Do you think the professor would give that an "A", and push it to get published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society? I doubt it. I don't even think it would make much of an impression as an undergraduate paper. The problems are obvious. Why would Paul be teaching something that only John wrote, and that much later? How does this make sense? How do your folk analogies, derived from other sources, transpose themselves back onto Paul's epistles?

Yet we never asked these questions in our meetings, since we were roaring at each other - "Ohhhhhh, I'm a man - I'm the center of the uuuuniverse!" and "when weeee exercise our spirit, our vision is so clear!" There was no place for objective critical response. It was a contest to see who could be more "on fire" and "positive" and so forth.

If millions of people around the world follow the conman named Joseph Smith, It is not a surprise if there is a following towards a man named Witness Lee. I mean a doctrine that degrades certain scripture because it does not meet it's ideals of belief is one thing, the mormons have their own book that they prioritize over the Bible (Book of Mormon). They call Joseph Smith's names and give him titles that are similar to witness Lee, such as oracle of God and many more exalting titles. There is also the eastern lightning group that has millions of members and look at their crazy beliefs. Honestly the world is full of strange groups.

1. Witness Lee maintains the perceived legitimacy of his doctrine because of fear and control. His doctrine has so many holes and false teachings but no one questions it because he is the "Oracle of God's and I quote by Big Daddy Kangas- " Greatest Apostle Since Paul". He is supposedly all these things but no one gives a crap about his false doctrine except for a small group of loonies that excommunicate and shun everyone who does not align with them. Greatest apostle since Paul, absolute bull-crap. Greatest Con-man since Joseph Smith- perhaps so? Hey fellas, supposedly gods move on earth is a cult that that relies on using an alias on college campuses to pilfer gullible and ignorant 18 year olds who know nothing of the Bible- Oh WOW!

2. As for witness Lee degradation of scripture that has no real solid ground to do so, is only done and gotten away with because of his authority and position. Actually his distaste for scripture reflects who he is as a person.

- Epistle of James, they simply don't like works and anything that involves spending resources and time outside the use of the LC. Also their emphasis on getting only college graduates with income potential (Building Material), really goes against James teaching of not discerning based wealth huh. I mean gotta get as much money as possible and keep it in the LC as much as possible so the higher ups can start business scams such as Daystar! Honestly their hate for James is reflective of their actions. In fact, witness Lee is to blame cause they all really just follow him- he is the greatest Con-man since Joseph Smith right? I mean ingnore all the teachings of gospel and Pauline Epistles in regards to works and just add a little concoction of "dead" to it and you get a bunch of little scared sycophants staying away from such things. Lee has a habit of saying doing this act of God is not correct and leads to death or most of Christianity has this interpretation of scripture wrong such has John 13:34. Does not explain how it's wrong but just says it is for the sake of pushing his agenda of having sychophants emain loyal to the ministry/church.

3. The LC people know of all the scriptures of works and of love for one another, they just don't care because of the great Con man telling them, those scriptures don't matter. In fact the LC don't even consider witness Lee "God's Economy" as doctrine. I think they are crazy enough to believe that they are Sola Scriptura. The elders and coworkers are always saying "IT IS NOT DOCTRINE". Well I'm sorry to say that, you validation and approval of scripture comes from an outside source of teachings/material known as "God's Economy", which is Con Man Lee doctrine. Don't worry there are many groups like you in the world such as the Mormons. You guys are like brothers and have a lot in like. Although I think Joseph Smith is definitely the better Con!

- Brother Aaron, there are many groups like this and the people who fall for it are gullible and ignorant college age kids with hardly any real world experience. Most of the elders were also ignorant college age kids with no biblical background and all their biblical knowledge comes from Lee. They did not have the capability to cross reference with sound orthodox teachings because of their ignorance, so they literally think Lee doctrine is the Golden standard of Christianity and their interpretation of scripture, and practice of Christian Life is all rooted in the Con Man Witness Lee. Therefore you have an entire group of pompous, hypocritical, and individuals void of love for one another (no friends/affection) and their fellow neighbors (dead works doctrine).