What is God's Economy?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your argument is flawed because one could easily say that Roman Catholicism and so many other heretical teachings and groups that came from the New Testament period and are based on the Bible, is evidence that the New Testament and the Bible produces bad fruit!

Paul said that in a great house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. The Bible doesn't produce bad fruit. Men do.

Let's look at the fruit of the LSM, shall we?

1. Dozens, hundreds of titles. Books, pamphlets, CDs, calendars, whatnot. All for sale to the public. Merchandising.
2. Many prayer meetings, church meetings, Bibles studies, which are all ministry indoctrination sessions.
3. Conferences and trainings, which are ministry indoctrination sessions.
4. Full-time trainings, which are ministry indoctrination centers.

And that's the good fruit. The bad fruit:

1. Storms, divisions, quarantines, turmoils, lawsuits.
2. Cultic spin-offs in mainland China

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Paul said that in a great house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. The Bible doesn't produce bad fruit. Men do.

Let's look at the fruit of the LSM, shall we?

1. Dozens, hundreds of titles. Books, pamphlets, CDs, calendars, whatnot. All for sale to the public. Merchandising.
2. Many prayer meetings, church meetings, Bibles studies, which are all ministry indoctrination sessions.
3. Conferences and trainings, which are ministry indoctrination sessions.
4. Full-time trainings, which are ministry indoctrination centers.

And that's the good fruit. The bad fruit:

1. Storms, divisions, quarantines, turmoils, lawsuits.
2. Cultic spin-offs in mainland China

I accept points 2,3,4 regarding indoctrination. I do not really accept point 1 because try buying ANY bible without paying for it. You would have to condemn all of your local Christian bookstores as well for 'merchandising', otherwise it is a bit hypocritical to consider LSM as merchandising when the Christian world is full of it.

Bad fruit Point 1. I accept as evidence of bad fruit.
Point 2. regarding cults I do not accept. If a cultic spin-off is proof of bad fruit of an organization or religion, then you would have to condemn and reject the whole of Christianity for producing bad fruit as well. Many cults have come from Christianity. Are you condemning Christianity because of that? If no, you are hypocritical. If yes, then you are consistent. If a cult is formed out of LSM, it is not their fault. Did they start or encourage the cultic spinoffs? Clearly, no. In fact, by the things said here, the LSM would be very much against any sort of cult or break away group, according to their desire to control.

Any major denomination fits those same categories you describe. The Reformation and thereafter was a tumultuous period with the loss of many lives as well.
So if you believe that any major denomination has just as much 'bad fruit', then we can agree. But if you are like others on here who accept denominationalism whilst criticising the LR, then I would have to point out the hypocrisy and bias against the LR, whilst ignoring the other good fruit. We also should not be ignoring the good fruit such as changed lives and salvations, a focus on Christ, community fellowship and higher and deeper understanding of God's Word.

Evangelical said "You would have to condemn all of your local Christian bookstores as well for 'merchandising'" -
A bookstore merchandises, a book store can control a chain of book stores, even on a worldwide scale. That's a bookstore.
LSM is strange ...

LSM- a publisher, a merchandising outlet for a self proclaimed 'God's oracle', 'Ministry Of The Age', also demands absolute obedience from LSM brand of 'local churches' worldwide, such that the LCs have to every day read and repeat Lee messages and read only Lee messages and LSM published bible, and behave in uniformity all instructions issued out of LSM first by Lee now the Blended.

LSM brand LC elders- in total obedience and conformity to LSM Blended-leaders, any not behaving in this manner quickly 'outed' by the blending force for not being in LSM type oneness and LSM defined body. LC autonomy- pay your own bills, clean your own hall, change your own light bulbs, report your own locality spiritual condition (members count, in oneness or not, in the body feeling or not, anyone causing troubles), order your own standng order HWFMR booklets and make sure of good distribution and money collection.

LSM- whosoever promoted to 'BLEND' level, full-timers and elders etc... must sign pledge of oneness to ONE publication, The LSM. Question: LSM churches are whose (franchised) local churches? Watchman Nee what do you thinks?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

try buying ANY bible without paying for it. You would have to condemn all of your local Christian bookstores as well for 'merchandising', otherwise it is a bit hypocritical to consider LSM as merchandising when the Christian world is full of it...

True. Christianity is full of merchandising, a lot of it is really shameful. But at least most Christian book-stores allow more than "one publication". So LSM is up there with the rankest of the money-grubbers.

Funny that Nee was able to read all the Christian classics, and take the best from each. But once he put quill to paper, there were no longer any other voices worth heeding? From then on, it was One Trumpet? My, how the age did indeed change.

Then when God's Humble Bondslave passed, nobody at all could function meaningfully. God's Oracle resided solely on print. Lee was the last of the Revelators. So the LSM has a captive market, now.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If a cult is formed out of LSM, it is not their fault. Did they start or encourage the cultic spinoffs? Clearly, no. In fact, by the things said here, the LSM would be very much against any sort of cult or break away group, according to their desire to control. .

The LSM does desire to control. When they came to mainland China, all the Little Flock house churches were told to "get in line". The age of the spirit had begun, and all you had to do was "masticate the divine". It took off like wildfire. At one point Lee publicly claimed 20 million 'shouters'. But because they gutted the extant leadership, a typical LSM move, there was nobody to control the group and when it spun out of control they denied any involvement. LSM adherents went from 20 million to zero in about 10 years. And you aren't even the least bit curious as to why, I'm sure. In fact you're trying hard not to be curious. You don't want to know the truth.

As one local church elder put it so well, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand".

Originally Posted by Evangelical

higher and deeper understanding of God's Word.

That is a completely subjective, biased, and unfounded assessment. I was there for years, and now am reading what the "cemeteries", as Lee called them, are putting out. It feels like leaving third-grade level reading books and getting a real college-level text. There's simply no comparison. The LSM output can only exist in the hermetically-sealed local church world. In the market-place of free ideas, with give-and-take, and real learning, they simply wouldn't make it. As soon as the light begins to shine, the Lee-world fiction crumbles. Take it from someone who got out.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

True. Christianity is full of merchandising, a lot of it is really shameful. But at least most Christian book-stores allow more than "one publication". So LSM is up there with the rankest of the money-grubbers...

lol you claim my view is subjective, biased, and unfounded, and then you provide your own subjective view. In comparison to much of the material out there, I think Lee and Nee books are quite good. There are many in the denominations who read them and study them, without being 'brainwashed' by the LSM movement. For the most part the mainline denominations are cemeteries. They don't preach Christ crucified. They don't preach the Spirit. They are more focused on promoting their own religion, entertainment, buildings and fund raising than building the church. People sit on the pews and attend every Sunday without doing anything, the priest or pastor does all the work, they are paid to do so. The priest or pastor extorts money from the congregation by claiming they must tithe otherwise they are 'robbing God' and God won't bless them. The only real "spiritual" service they provide is conducting marriages and funerals, animal blessings and in some cases homosexual union or marriage blessings. They criticize each other for not baptizing in a certain way or for raising hands during worship.

They use hand-waving hocus pocus magic in their "communion" rituals. They baptize infants and assure the parents they are saved simply for being splashed with water. The priest or pastor would never let a member of the laity, give a word or message or prophesy from the Spirit. They will bless and approve of couples engaged in fornication and adultery. They will accept Buddhist, or Hindu teachings and many priests or pastors are both Christian and Buddhist, or of dual faith. Then there are the gay and lesbian churches where the gay or lesbian pastors are ordained because have learnt enough from the "real college level texts" of the theologians. So as not to offend anyone the pastor will call God "Mother". I think Lee was very accurate to call them cemeteries, some actually deserve to be called worse.

I bring your attention to the number of denominations who are approving homosexual ordination or blessings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homosexuality

You can see there is a whole lot of green there.

And if you are American (I know you aren't, the "you" is directed at any who may be reading) well this conglomeration of denominations have really dropped the ball with the gay marriage law thing haven't they? All in the name of love and tolerance.

I think yourself and many others here on this forum are delusional in focusing on the problems of the "1% of the Body" local churches, whilst oblivious to the problems of the 99%. Nee/Lee and the LR are a little bit of a shining light compared to the alternative majority - at least they preach the Bible, if not badly. And one of you here have been appealing to the views of this 99% as evidence against the "1% local churches". The same 99% of which a majority are tolerant towards homosexual behavior. I really think it is you lot who have their head stuck in the sand. Since you are so obsessed about speaking about Lee and Nee and the negative goings on, it only proves that you have never really left them, yet blinded to the real condition of the Body.

Now Germany, I haven't even begun to think about the condition of the body of Christ in your own country, I unfairly focus on the Americans. But lets think about it for a moment, many sleepy villages and towns with a local Catholic and Lutheran churches. The Christmas times are beautiful by the way, I really enjoy it, but nothing of Christ. When I went to Germany I couldn't help but fall asleep in the churches. And the many idolatrous things in the great cathedrals and the statues of Mary on the sides of the roads. Again, Lee was kind of accurate to call all of this a cemetery, because everyone seems spiritually dead and sleeping. To think that your country was once the shining light of the Reformation, and now of what it has become. The Lutherans only know when to stand and sit when they are told by the Priest and pray and read the bold letters out of a service book. You don't consider that a cemetery? Now consider the "Verantwortung und Verlässlichkeit stärken", perhaps you would like to read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...nd_Lutheranism

In the year 2000, the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) passed the resolution Verantwortung und Verlässlichkeit stärken, in which same-gender partnerships are supported.[7] In November 2010, EKD passed a new right for LGBT ordination of homosexual ministers, who live in civil unions.[8] The most churches within the EKD allowed blessing of same-sex unions.[9]

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

lol you claim my view is subjective, biased, and unfounded, and then you provide your own subjective view. .

Of course my view is biased. That's why I stay open to the larger Christian conversation. I rarely presume to hold forth the sum total of objective reality, i.e. the High Peak Truth Recovered for the Present Age, and when I do, someone usually says, "Not so fast." The church is a great place to get right-sized. And when I say, "church", I think you know what I mean: all the believers, not the select few.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

Yes they're abominations. But the solution is not to play Little Jack Horner and sit in the corner pulling out Christmas plums and telling yourself what a good boy you are, there on the proper ground. If you really loved the church you'd engage it, not flee from it.

If you engage the church you'll see the light. Or you can hide, and pretend.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes they're abominations. But the solution is not to play Little Jack Horner and sit in the corner pulling out Christmas plums and telling yourself what a good boy you are, there on the proper ground. If you really loved the church you'd engage it, not flee from it.

If you engage the church you'll see the light. Or you can hide, and pretend.

I think we need some genuine light of God's Word:

Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there, Touch nothing unclean; Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves, You who carry the vessels of the LORD.

2 Cor 6:17 Therefore, "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."

2 John 1:9-10 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

James 1:27 Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Can you can offer some verses that show that we should engage with the homosexual-loving and idolatrous denominations?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think we need some genuine light of God's Word:...

Evangelical,

Ever wonder why the local church has such a high churn rate?

Churn rate (sometimes called attrition rate), in its broadest sense, is a measure of the number of individuals or items moving out of a collective group over a specific period of time. It is one of two primary factors that determine the steady-state level of customers a business will support.

Because they realize that the ground of the church and the ministry are a stronghold of unclean things. Worse than the religious world they condemn. "Come out of her, My people" is applicable here, as well. If Protestantism is breeding the daughters of the harlot, then the local church is one of her vilest off-spring.

Having said that, I do love my lc brothers and sisters. It is just that they're under the influence of some rather pernicious teachings. So, like Paul, I hope to provoke a few of them, here.

A long, long time ago, there was a narrative. It concerned the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was the Savior of the world. That narrative indeed became lost over time, at least in the public discourse. People like Luther and Wesley did indeed begin to advance it back to its proper sphere. But Lee's Gods Economy metric is actually a turning away. Instead of God's Christ we get God's New Move, the Feeling in the Body, the Proper Church Life, God's Oracle, Masticating the Processed God, Vital Groups, Full-time Training, Standing Orders, and so forth.

But when you come to the Bible itself, you know what Lee calls it? "Fallen human concepts". Instead of pointing to the coming Messiah, Lee thinks it's just vain human imagination.

This is not a recovery of the narrative, but a turning away. Refuse such teachings.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

Why don't you just save some time and call down fire from heaven on them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If a cult is formed out of LSM, it is not their fault. Did they start or encourage the cultic spinoffs? Clearly, no. .

The other place where the shoe fits uncomfortably well is that when you read the recruiting practices of the most evil and egregious of the spin-off cults, they're so similar to the LSM-approved and promulgated methods.

1. Go to the Christian groups. Find ones who are open. Tell them you also are a believer.
2. Don't let them know your affiliations, or motives. "Oh, we are just Christians."
3. Begin to gain their trust. Let them make emotional connections. Affirm common points of ground.
4. Begin to separate them from others. Start feeding them how awful every other group is, all the problems. Get them to agree in your condemnations.
5. Start to groom them with your special truths. Recovered for these last days.

Etc

Etc

Etc