What is God's Economy?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well, are we treating the TOTKOG&E as if it was a completely good thing? I hope not! There was a reason God told them not to eat of it, that is, it wasn't just some sort of test to see if they would obey or fail. God said in eating of it they would die. There was something He wanted them not to eat and this was pointed out clearly to them. And the enemy knew it would cause problems, so he wanted them to eat it.

Also, it was food --> that is, it gets into a person. It is one of the many things man can eat and take into his being which becomes part of him. Food is all over the Bible: eat the lamb; Jesus is the bread of life, the living water, "If you don't drink My blood & eat My flesh, you have no life in you," etc. So why food? It shows it is something man takes in that becomes part of his make-up, just like physical food is assimilated into, and becomes part of, our bodies.

So I get that there's an aspect of the shear disobedience that happened, but the fact that the disobedience resulted in something being eaten and assimilated needs to be accounted for too, right?

I'll add that, yes, somehow when we eat of the tree of life we keep living, and when we eat of the TOTKOGAE we get the knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is not a bad thing in scripture, and neither is discerning good/evil. So I continually do not see any evidence for "what they took in" being bad.....possibly just premature (since discerning good/evil is a characteristic of mature believers, as shown in Hebrews).

[Awoken]

Hosea 4:6 is pretty explicit about that: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

Kinda drastically different from what we were taught in the LCs - "Knowledge, good, and evil all come from the same tree!"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Awoken

Hosea 4:6 is pretty explicit about that: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

Kinda drastically different from what we were taught in the LCs - "Knowledge, good, and evil all come from the same tree!"

I was looking at the quote from WL on this:

"Both our goodness and our badness belong to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Whether you are moral or immoral, whether you are honest or dishonest, whether you steal or do not steal, whether you are a robber or a gentleman, whether you are quarrelsome or peaceable, whether you are a shrewd woman or a virtuous woman, all belong to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Someone should have cued in that poor angel that spoke with Cornelius in Acts, who said that Cornelius' good works had ascended as a memorial before God.

Acts 10:1-4 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God."

According to WL, being devout and God-fearing is from the wrong tree. Helping poor people is from the wrong tree. But Cornelius was not yet a Christian. He was just trying to do the right thing. Was this vain? Did the angel (and Luke the storyteller) err?

It seems that WL trafficked in our ignorance and lack of knowledge as the quote from Hosea 4 above shows. And then our ignorance was reinforced by the saying, "Don't think. You will only be confused". I was told this repeatedly. "Just exercise your spirit", i.e. shout a lot. Preferably, shout WL slogans.

At some point, everything seemed to circle back to that, or the "ground of oneness". Why do we shout simplistic, made-up slogans? Why, because it's God's economy, that's why! Of course, how silly of me to ask.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'll add that, yes, somehow when we eat of the tree of life we keep living, and when we eat of the TOTKOGAE we get the knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is not a bad thing in scripture, and neither is discerning good/evil. So I continually do not see any evidence for "what they took in" being bad.....possibly just premature (since discerning good/evil is a characteristic of mature believers, as shown in Hebrews).

Wasn't the result of that eating bad as God had said, that is --> death?

I see the knowledge of good and evil tree as allowing man to take control of matters for his own purposes. That is, man could independently decide for himself whether he should pursue something or not, rather than seeking the Lord and following His choices - as Jesus demonstrated in His actions that He sought His Father's will and did not act in His independent knowledge of things.

I think it comes down to what the source of the knowledge is.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wasn't the result of that eating bad as God had said, that is --> death?

I see the knowledge of good and evil tree as allowing man to take control of matters for his own purposes. That is, man could independently decide for himself whether he should pursue something or not, rather than seeking the Lord and following His choices - as Jesus demonstrated in His actions that He sought His Father's will and did not act in His independent knowledge of things.

I think it comes down to what the source of the knowledge is.

Knucklehead Who Won't Read Scriptur-----I mean, Sons to Glory,

The result of their sin was death. The result of their disobedience, the offense, the transgression was death.

The wages (what we are due, what we are paid, what we EARN) of sin ("the offense") is death. Not "the wages of what we eat is death".

It couldn't be more explicit in Genesis where death came from. From their being cut off from the tree of life. There is no verse, no record, no statement that says death came from what they ate. None. There is an explicit verse that says they were cut off from the tree of life SO THEY WOULD NO LONGER LIVE FOREVER -- i.e DIE.

As to what the result of eating is, it is in Genesis 3:22:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

When God named the trees, He didn't name them deceptively. If you eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you get -- the knowledge of good and evil! And this very verse shows us that: "the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil", just like God said.

If it was the tree of "allowing man to take control of matters for his own purposes", then God would have called it that.

I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over again. I've written plenty on this topic and have no intention of banging my head against a wall that won't put eyes on the verses. I'm showing you verses, scripture, explicit references, explicit words, and you keep responding with things Witness Lee taught that have no basis in scripture. Other posters have grasped the concepts right away, so I know the issue is not the way I'm explaining things.

Trapped

P.S. this is going to sound frustrated, and it is a little bit, but can you tell me - in all the discussion about this topic, have you gone back and actually re-read Genesis 2-3? Or are you simply speaking from what you know of the story? If the latter, I would ask you to go back and read Genesis 2-3, with the intention of actually looking for proof of what Lee taught (which is what you seem to still espouse).

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wasn't the result of that eating bad as God had said, that is --> death?

I see the knowledge of good and evil tree as allowing man to take control of matters for his own purposes. That is, man could independently decide for himself whether he should pursue something or not, rather than seeking the Lord and following His choices - as Jesus demonstrated in His actions that He sought His Father's will and did not act in His independent knowledge of things.

I think it comes down to what the source of the knowledge is.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil didn't "allow" man to do anything. It's a tree. GOD gave man the "freedom to independently decide for himself"...not the tree. God is not a puppet-master...or a tree. He gave us a free will. Man has the freedom to seek the Lord or not. Witness Lee's ministry was to take away the freedom of believers to choose for themselves.

What is our freedom? Obey or disobey. Mankind isn't still eating of that tree, are they? Is much of mankind still living a life of disobedience?

What they consumed in the garden that day was pooped away...3000 years ago. But man still lives in obedience or disobedience. Mankind lives with the consequences of decisions to choose God or not.

Who decides what the source of knowledge is? You? Witness Lee?

I prefer blockhead to knucklehead.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil didn't "allow" man to do anything. It's a tree. GOD gave man the "freedom to independently decide for himself"...not the tree. God is not a puppet-master...or a tree. He gave us a free will. Man has the freedom to seek the Lord or not. Witness Lee's ministry was to take away the freedom of believers to choose for themselves.

What is our freedom? Obey or disobey. Mankind isn't still eating of that tree, are they? Is much of mankind still living a life of disobedience?

What they consumed in the garden that day was pooped away...3000 years ago. But man still lives in obedience or disobedience. Mankind lives with the consequences of decisions to choose God or not.

Who decides what the source of knowledge is? You? Witness Lee?

I prefer blockhead to knucklehead.

Nell

Saying it's just "a tree" is simplistic and short-changes its effect. It was a fruit-bearing tree and its fruit was eaten in disobedience. It was food and had the result of death. Does man largely live independent of God now, by constantly making choices of what they see as either good or bad? Sure. Sounds like that fruit is still having an affect.

Roman's 7:17 says sin dwells in the flesh - how did it get there? What is born of flesh is flesh, so we were all born into this world with sin in the flesh. Again, how did it get there?

(and I don't know what you mean by the "blockhead/knucklehead" comment)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Saying it's just "a tree" is simplistic and short-changes its effect. It was a fruit-bearing tree and its fruit was eaten in disobedience. It was food and had the result of death. Does man largely live independent of God now, by constantly making choices of what they see as either good or bad? Sure. Sounds like that fruit is still having an affect.

Roman's 7:17 says sin dwells in the flesh - how did it get there? What is born of flesh is flesh, so we were all born into this world with sin in the flesh. Again, how did it get there?

(and I don't know what you mean by the "blockhead/knucklehead" comment)

I didn’t say it was just a tree. You did.

You also said a tree “allows” as though it was some sort of “sentient being”. Trees don’t “allow”.

You are shortchanging the effect of disobedience.

It was disobedience that resulted in spiritual death, not food.

How did sin get into the flesh? Disobedience. Again, disobedience.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Saying it's just "a tree" is simplistic and short-changes its effect. It was a fruit-bearing tree and its fruit was eaten in disobedience. It was food and had the result of death. Does man largely live independent of God now, by constantly making choices of what they see as either good or bad? Sure. Sounds like that fruit is still having an affect.

Roman's 7:17 says sin dwells in the flesh - how did it get there? What is born of flesh is flesh, so we were all born into this world with sin in the flesh. Again, how did it get there?

(and I don't know what you mean by the "blockhead/knucklehead" comment)

You are trying to ascribe some kind of responsibility to the fruit as the cause for mankind's continued disobedience against God. Really? Do you really think that our sin nature came from a piece of fruit? That death came from a piece of fruit from a tree that God Himself described as "good for food" as well as "makes you like God"? Can you see how those things (what you are claiming plus what scripture says) cannot go together without contradiction or without creating a false or malicious God?

You surely recognize that Adam & Eve disobeyed God BEFORE the fruit got into them, do you not?

No one is short-changing the tree's effect. You are creating an effect that isn't there and telling others who disagree that they are shortchanging what is actually your unscriptural overlay onto the text.

Before you write any more posts about this topic:

Pleeeeeeease go back and read Genesis 2&3. Where did death come from in Genesis? From the fruit or from God cutting them off from the tree of life? Give me specific verses, please.

Pleeeeeeease go back and read Romans 5. Does it say sin entered "through the offense/trespass/disobedience" or does it say sin entered "through the fruit"? Give me specific verses, please.

Hi Trapped,
you pointed out that "Adam & Eve disobeyed God BEFORE the fruit got into them".
Helpful to me.
Did you learn this from somewhere? Pls refer me to it.
Or, the enlightenment came while you were arguing in this discussion?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Trapped,
you pointed out that "Adam & Eve disobeyed God BEFORE the fruit got into them".
Helpful to me.
Did you learn this from somewhere? Pls refer me to it.
Or, the enlightenment came while you were arguing in this discussion?

Gen. 3:13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The (1) serpent deceived me, and (2) I ate.”

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Trapped,
you pointed out that "Adam & Eve disobeyed God BEFORE the fruit got into them".
Helpful to me.
Did you learn this from somewhere? Pls refer me to it.
Or, the enlightenment came while you were arguing in this discussion?

Hi Unregistered,

The long story is that it's just what the Bible says and shows. I've always had a problem with Witness Lee's teaching that "God doesn't care about right and wrong" and so a while back I sat down to read the verses, as well as some of his ministry, to see where the Biblical support is for that, because it's a pillar of a teaching in the local church. Much to my surprise, there is nothing in scripture where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is described as containing poison, or death, or any of the things Lee said about it. It's described only positively, but yet is forbidden to eat. I read numerous other Christian articles online to confirm that others also saw that there is no reason to claim the TOTKOGAE was itself evil, and they confirmed it.

Lee went so far as to call it the "tree of death" and said that Satan was crafty and subtle in hiding what it really was, but the problem with that is you would also have to call God crafty and sneaky because God also called the TOTKOGAE the TOTKOGAE, and not "the tree of death". So Lee's being off on just where death came from ends up making God an evil God, which is obviously not true.

Once you realize the TOTKOGAE is not "the source" of the problem, it's not where death came from, it's not where sin came from, it's not "forbidden because it's bad" but "is 'bad' only because it's forbidden", then you start thinking "okay, why DID they eat of the tree then?"

Listening to Christian apologists who have to answer these kind of questions all the time like "why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place", the apologists hammer home pretty hard that God gave man free will. Free will to choose to eat of it or not eat of it. So I started looking for things in the verses that I could blame God for. And the more I scoured the verses, the less there was to blame God about! God created a garden with thousands of trees in it (by the presumed size of the garden based on it's description by numerous rivers), all pleasant to the sight, all good for food, and He forbade literally only one. God didn't trick them, He didn't make it difficult, He provided countless other choices. It's like someone takes you to a large buffet restaurant with 500 different dishes hot and ready to eat, and they tell you not to eat that one dish marked with an X. And you go over and eat the one X-marked dish! Why? You had 500 other choices!

Man really had free will. And man chose to use that free will to disobey God. It really was a fair situation, and God told them exactly what tree was the problem, exactly what would happen if they disobeyed, the whole thing. It wasn't fruit that got into them that caused it. It was their free-will choice to do so. And because man had free will, and he chose to disobey, God can punish him rightly. And He did. With death.

The short story is, yes, I've never had to state specifically that Adam and Eve disobeyed before the fruit got into them until this particular discussion.

Trapped

[Awoken]

Or, as Jesus put it...

Matthew 15:8-20 NKJV
"'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "

When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."

Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Then Peter answered and said to Him, "Explain this parable to us."

So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."