What is God's Economy?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by aron

I welcome Jay and other new posters on this forum, I hope that you have as much fun as I have. I really like having a forum where I can express my views, and often I hear the view of others as well, very encouraging to consider what others see and think.

I mostly agree with the tenor of Jay’s writing, but like Zezima find the interpretation of “God’s economy” by Lee to be far short of the mark. I see three related issues.

First, like Zezima said, there is no verse in the Bible, either OT or NT, where it says, “Pray-reading the scripture is God’s economy” or “Pray-reading the scripture is food to us.” It says the Word is food to us, but it doesn’t say pray-reading. Jesus says, “To obey God’s word is food to us”, not to pray-read, in John 4:34.

Later, in John, he also says, “As I obey my Father’s commands and live, so also you shall obey my commands and live.” (15:10). Again, not pray-reading scripture, but obedience. Not repetitious noise-making but actions of compliance with the divine will as expressed in scripture.

My second issue with Lee’s interpretation of God’s economy is that it is centered on the believer, not on Jesus Christ. I (the believer) can exercise my human spirit!! That was the focus, they sold me a fantasy version of myself and I believed it. And notice, it doesn’t even say, “exercise your spirit” but “exercise yourself unto godliness” – again, behavior, not noisemaking.
So the believer gets enthralled with the idea of “making it”, when it is Jesus who made it. The believer gets focused on himself or herself, instead of loving the neighbor. We were told at FTTA “don’t waste your time” on the poor, the widows, the orphans. Get the “good building material.” Completely selfish in orientation.

My third issue is that it doesn’t work. I tell one story as an example. A few years ago, I sat in on a meeting with Ron Kangas. He told us a story about a woman in the church, who 38 years ago was flighty, nervous and vain. Now, he says, 38 years have gone by, and no transformation! However, he, Ron, was in a meeting with WL who told them to pray that God would make his home in their hearts. So Ron has been praying the special prayer every day and he’s assured that he’s transformed, not like this sister.

I heard this and thought, so “Just call O Lord/he’ll change your life” doesn’t work! She didn’t pray the special prayer. Every day for 38 year she called, “O Lord” but she missed the special meeting with the special overcomer prayer and didn’t get the inward metabolic transformation that we were all promised.

Of course it’s good to call on the Lord. Whoever calls on the Lord shall be saved. But the Bible doesn’t say, “Just call O Lord.” You also have to obey. But WL’s version of God’s economy reduced it to “just call”. That is deceptive.
I’ve already gone into some detail elsewhere what I think Paul meant by “God’s economy”. It was a riff on Jesus’ “Give to those who can’t repay you in this age, and your reward will be great in heaven.” See 2 whole chapters on this theme, in 2 Cor 8 and 9. Where did Paul spend 2 chapters on pray-reading? Or even 2 verses?

As far as I can tell the economy of God is a fully Biblical. And yes transformation is implied in the economy of God if the believer taps into the spirit. This is like describing the components of an engine to determine how it works. If a believer doesn't turn to their spirit and let the spirit of God saturate their inward being then how could they be transformed? The "engine" won't work. With that said, even if a believer is turning to their spirit for many years, it does not annul their dormant flesh which will always be with us until our body dies. This is also biblical. If "the engine" of the spirit isn't turned on then the "car of holiness" won't go forward

Here is a quote from a website on the economy of God-

The Greek word for economy is oikonomia (Ephesians 1:10; 3:9), which means a household government or a household administration. God's economy is His plan to dispense Himself into man so that He can gain a household to express Himself. This household is the church, the Body of Christ (1 Timothy 3:15)

https://amanatrust.org.uk/post/what-...mothy%203%3A15).

Some people might make it hard to understand, some might leave out key elements. But the basic gist is that if we turn to our spirit and live our lives in the spirit we will receive God's dispensing and we will live by him (John 6:57), this will bring transformation (2 Corinthians 3:18). Does it mean that we will be infallible? No. But insofar as we have partaken of and assimilated God we should be transformed to that degree. I see no fault with this concept and it is very Biblical. I believe it's the core message of the Bible and aligns perfectly with God's original design in Genesis with man and the two trees. The concepts of eating, partaking of, and assimilating God himself to be transformed into his own image is a concept that runs throughout the entire word of God

If you throw out the concept of the economy of God you might as well throw your entire Bible out with it

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

I believe it's the core message of the Bible and aligns perfectly with God's original design in Genesis with man and the two trees. The concepts of eating, partaking of, and assimilating God himself to be transformed into his own image is a concept that runs throughout the entire word of God

The concept of the two trees is a perfect example of placing an idea onto the text. There is no command given by God in the garden of Eden, to eat of the Tree of Life

Genesis 2:16-17 “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

If you approach this text as is, it’s clear that man is allowed to eat of EVERY tree in the garden apart from the TOKOGE. If you approach this text with the concept you’re referring to, then you’re inferring onto the text that since man is commanded to not eat of the TOKOGE, then man must have been commanded to eat of the TOL.

If you throw out the concept of the economy of God you might as well throw your entire Bible out with it.

This is a common response many have had when the beliefs they hold so dearly begin to wobble or collapse. I’d urge anyone with this response to consider a different approach. Read the Bible for yourself, get a reader version or non-study Bible, and just read it. No footnotes or commentary, no subject headers or outlines. Make an effort to set aside your beliefs, start from 0 as best you can and let the Bible tell you what it’s about.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Jay

If we throw out the work of Nee and Lee then certainly we have to throw out the books that David, Solomon, and Paul wrote. Do we not?

Another double-take......complements of Jay!
For decades the followers of Nee and Lee have vehemently denied that they consider or treat the writings of these two men as equal to the Word of God. And now our new friend Jay has confirmed this inevitable conclusion for us in real time.

In all fairness to Jay, many (prob most?) of us who were in the Local Church of Witness Lee for any significant length of time held this view of Watchman and Witness, conscientiously or unconscientiously, even if we didn't shout it from the rooftops to a world-wide Internet audience. To be sure, this should not be considered as a mere "Freudian slip" - I am quite certain that Jay actually believes that the 20th century ministry and writings of these two Chinese gentleman are equal in value and authority to the living and abiding Word of God. It is this kind of attitude that caused the late Benson Phillips to proclaim that any Local Church member who leaves the movement will become "spiritually bankrupt and will never be a great spiritual person on earth" (close paraphrase) and that also caused the most blended of Blended Brothers, Minoru Chen, to boldly declare that he is "altogether filled with the spirit of Witness Lee". This is what happens to people who give over their hearts and minds to the person and work of mere, mortal men, and abandon the the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, AKA the Person and Work of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the actual, genuine teaching of the Apostles, and the current leading and fellowship of the Spirit of Truth. May God have mercy on us all.
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[Jay]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Another double-take......complements of Jay!
For decades the followers of Nee and Lee have vehemently denied that they consider or treat the writings of these two men as equal to the Word of God. And now our new friend Jay has confirmed this inevitable conclusion for us in real time......-

You're just taking what I said and running with it, and adding your own twist with cute little sprinkles of extra layers of things I never said or even implied. Which is whatever. You're a hurt person, I get it. I'm hurt too. I'm just trying to be fair

I believe that the local churches are biblical in concept. But probably the leadership and clergy-laity aspects are very wrong and unrighteous. Which we can talk about that. But please don't put all this extra crap on me that I'm not saying or implying

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zezima

The concept of the two trees is a perfect example of placing an idea onto the text. There is no command given by God in the garden of Eden, to eat of the Tree of Life...

Would you like me to literally quote the verses that talk about God's economy? And the verses that go into depth about it also? Do you read the Bible much?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

Would you like me to literally quote the verses that talk about God's economy? And the verses that go into depth about it also?

Yes, that would be appropriate for this thread.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

Would you like me to literally quote the verses that talk about God's economy? And the verses that go into depth about it also? Do you read the Bible much?

Yes please. Quote the verses, not Lee.

In addition, please give us a brief, clear and concise (not wordy) definition of “God’s economy”.

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes please. Quote the verses, not Lee.

In addition, please give us a brief, clear and concise (not wordy) definition of “God’s economy”.

Nell

Ephesians 3:9 And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things
Ephesians 1:10 Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him
1 Timothy 1:4 Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith
1 Timothy 2:4 [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth

Economy is a Greek word meaning household law, implying distribution (the base of this word is of the same origin as that for pasture in John 10:9, implying a distribution of the pasture to the flock). It denotes a household management, a household administration, a household government, and, derivatively, a dispensation, a plan, or an economy for administration (distribution); hence, it is also a household economy. God's economy in faith is his household economy, his household administration, which is to dispense himself in Christ into his chosen people that he may have a house to express himself, which house is the church (1 Timothy 3:15), the body of Christ. The apostle's ministry (Paul) was centered on this economy (Colossians 1:25; 1 Corinthians 9:17), whereas the different teachings of the dissenting ones were used by God's enemy to distract his people away from this economy. In the administration and shepherding of a local church, this divine economy must be made fully clear to the saints- Witness Lee, 1 Timothy 1:4 footnote

As I said in my last post in this thread; God is concerned with our eating. In his economy God has given us Christ as the center of his distribution, for us to eat spiritually (John 6:57, John 4:24). This is the core theme of the Bible. God wants an expression on the earth, and he gains it through willful assimilation of his spirit. This is the point and goal of salvation and regeneration of our human spirit, not simply works

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

As I said in my last post in this thread; God is concerned with our eating. In his economy God has given us Christ as the center of his distribution, for us to eat spiritually (John 6:57, John 4:24). This is the core theme of the Bible. God wants an expression on the earth, and he gains it through willful assimilation of his spirit. This is the point and goal of salvation and regeneration of our human spirit, not simply works

Jay, then what do you do with these verses? This short section encapsulates the whole of God’s Economy - God’s Plan of salvation, the goal of His redemption, our Hope and our living in this age, with His final desire that we be “zealous of good works.”

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2.11-14

No mention of “eating” here, rather lots of “doing,” the right kind of “doing.” I’m not demeaning “eating,” but Apostle Paul never focused on it.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, then what do you do with these verses? This short section encapsulates the whole of God’s Economy - God’s Plan of salvation, the goal of His redemption, our Hope and our living in this age, with His final desire that we be “zealous of good works.”

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2.11-14

No mention of “eating” here, rather lots of “doing,” the right kind of “doing.” I’m not demeaning “eating,” but Apostle Paul never focused on it.

I never threw out good works. My point is that if we are not abiding in the Lord (John 15:4) then we cannot produce good fruit (good works). Jesus said 'apart from me you can do nothing' (John 15:5). So as I said before, good works ties into God's economy in the sense that good works or good fruits are the result of God dispensing himself as the spirit in his economy. Also righteousness and sanctification are results of our abiding in the spirit. Otherwise our Christian walk and righteousness would just be an outward performance. Which is a major problem with modern Christianity and the denominations. They do things FOR God but ignore God's method of sanctification and transformation. Essentially they ignore Christ and they ignore their spirit. Or we could probably say that they are ignorant of Christ in their spirit. satan loves to keep people in ignorance

We all have to solemnly read Matthew 23:27-28 and question whether we have God's subjective righteousness through the transformation of the spirit, or our own kind of outward righteousness according to the dead letter of the law. One has life, the other is death-

2 Corinthians 3:6b for the letter (the law) kills, but the spirit gives life

The letter of the law, which only requires of man. It is unable to supply man with life (Galatians 3:21). Because of man's inability to fulfill the requirements of the law, the law kills man (Romans 7:9-11) - Witness Lee, footnote 3:6, 2 Corinthians

The law was able only to demand and condemn; it could not give life. (See note Rom. 7:101.) There is no life in the law; there are only commandments. Life is in Christ (John 1:4). He is the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45), the only One who is able to give life. The giving of life is the focal point of the apostle's revelation. We should take only the One who gives life

There must be righteousness in order for life to be given. Righteousness, however, is not of law but in Christ (Rom. 5:17-18). Hence, the law is not able to give life. Furthermore, since the law cannot give life, it has no power to fulfill its requirements so that righteousness may be produced. Hence, in this sense also, righteousness is not of law- Witness Lee, footnotes 3:21, Galatians

What Lee is basically saying here that works (whether righteousness or whatever) that is not out of the spirit, is out of the law. Most Christians fail at this one point. They are unable to gain their good works from out of abiding, and their righteousness doesn't come from the spirit of Christ, it comes from somewhere else. They think they have to DO for God and to be approved by God through their DOING. This is fully wrong according to the Bible. The doing and the working comes out of the spirit (Philippians 2:13). If the spirit is not the source then it's wood, hay, and stubble (1 Corinthians 3:12). Unfortunately most of modern Christians are to some degree caught up in this major error

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No mention of “eating” here, rather lots of “doing,” the right kind of “doing.” I’m not demeaning “eating,” but Apostle Paul never focused on it.

I believe Paul was an eater of Jesus. I believe his ministry focuses on eating the spirit. Read Romans 8:6 and Romans 10:13

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jay

As I said in my last post in this thread; God is concerned with our eating. In his economy God has given us Christ as the center of his distribution, for us to eat spiritually (John 6:57, John 4:24). This is the core theme of the Bible. God wants an expression on the earth, and he gains it through willful assimilation of his spirit. This is the point and goal of salvation and regeneration of our human spirit, not simply works

I've been in the Christian assemblies for decades and don't recall anyone teaching that the point and goal of salvation is simply works. Faith is usually stressed along with behaviour. The two are integrally related. It appears as though Jay is constructing a "straw man" and then saying, "We don't want to be like that." When no Christian assembly is promoting simply works.

And yes, God is concerned with our eating. But the Local Church tactic in discussing our eating is to leave out verses that indicate it's something other than what they say. I will bring them forward, again, with germane sections capitalized for emphasis. I am paraphrasing by memory but I doubt that I'm distorting the meaning much if at all.

"My food is to DO the will of the Father in heaven" [which will is expressed in scripture] Here eating is obedience to God's will, explicitly stated.
"Even as I DO the will of the Father [as written in scripture] and live, so you [disciples] should DO my will [expressed in my commandments] and live"
"Behold, I come to DO Thy will, O God, behold in the scroll of the book [God's command written in scripture] it is written concerning me [the Messiah, Jesus Christ]"
"Blessed is the servant whom the Master comes and finds so doing [i.e. distributing food to the hungry]. Behold, I tell you that He will set him over His whole house"
Peter, in preaching to the gentiles, said, "Jesus of Nazareth went around DOING GOOD, for God was with Him"

Remember that pray-reading and calling on the Lord repetitively are also a doing, based on another faith, that Witness Lee was a "seer of the divine revelation" (his own words for Watchman Nee, which he associated with himself explicitly, as well). We believe in WL as MOTA, go to his supposed "proper ground" and incessantly call, shout, and amen, thinking that in our multiplicity of words we somehow fulfill the divine command. No, the divine command was to be kind to one another, distributing (dispensing) to those who lack. Again, I remind of the RecV translation: "And when Paul and Silas were finished with this dispensing [of food to the poor of Jerusalem], they left..."

Being obedient to God's command to love one another, which obedience is fueled by our faith in Jesus as God's Obedient Lamb (and our King) and our obedience to His commands to love one another (in deed [DOING] and not just in word). Confession of faith is naturally followed by obedience in activity.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes please. Quote the verses, not Lee.

In addition, please give us a brief, clear and concise (not wordy) definition of “God’s economy”.

Nell

Non-answer.

You just couldn’t do it could you? You had to get all wordy and quote Lee. No surprise there.

Lee’s “ministry” consists of taking verses describing something in the word and turning it into a prescription that must be followed for all time ……”eating” for example.

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Non-answer.

You just couldn’t do it could you? You had to get all wordy and quote Lee. No surprise there.

Lee’s “ministry” consists of taking verses describing something in the word and turning it into a prescription that must be followed for all time ……”eating” for example.

Nell

I think I answered very adequately and concisely. It's not my fault if the answer wasn't according to your palate

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

Would you like me to literally quote the verses that talk about God's economy? And the verses that go into depth about it also? Do you read the Bible much?

Jay? Where are your verses?

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jay

If you throw out the concept of the economy of God you might as well throw your entire Bible out with it

Before this, you're quoting my post so I'll respond as if the "you" in this sentence refers to me. Nowhere in my writing did I say to throw out the concept of the economy of God. I said to throw out Lee's concept. Instead I offered mine, "Give to those who have no means to repay you in this age" which is surely just as Biblical as "God's plan to dispense Himself into His chosen people".

First, it was a core teaching of Jesus, repeated over and over. Love your neighbour as yourself. Give, and it will be given to you. Second, it was repeated by the disciples. It is better to give than to receive. How can you say that you love your neighbour if you don't share? Third, it was done, even in a focused way, by those same disciples. In his account in Galatians 2, after Paul describes himself as the openly recognized "apostle to the gentiles", he's told by the Twelve to "remember the poor".

How many footnotes did that get, even after he replies that he was eager to do this very thing? Paul's mission to the gentiles is tied to reconnecting them with the poor of Jerusalem, and this enthusiastically affirmed by Paul, and yet how many conferences did WL give on this matter, even though it was being presented as the "central lane of God's New Testament economy" in Paul's own account?

Talk about throwing out the Bible! WL's concept of God's economy is like asking someone after watching a western movie, what it was about, and hearing, "It was about men with hats riding horses". True enough - the whole movie, you could see men, hats, and horses. But by insisting that was the unique and central theme, it necessitates ignoring a lot else! In this case, pray-reading and repetitive shouting get lots of attention, and the poor are not remembered but instead dismissed.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Jay

If you throw out the concept of the economy of God you might as well throw your entire Bible out with it.

Ya know Jay, if you really want us to believe you when you say you don't hold the ministry and writings of Witness Lee as equal to the Bible, you might not want to go around making statements like this. That being said, I will refrain from giving any "cute little sprinkles" on this doozy for the time being.

Originally Posted by Jay

....But probably the leadership and clergy-laity aspects are very wrong and unrighteous. Which we can talk about that.

Oh Jay, we've been talking about many things very wrong and unrighteous in your little sect for about 20 years now on these Internet forums. Unfortunately, "the leadership and clergy-laity aspects" are the very least of these very wrong and unrighteous things. But I think you've probably figured that out by now.

Don't know if you'd consider this as just a "cute little sprinkle" or not, but this is the best advise I've seen on this thread so far:

Originally Posted by Zezima

This is a common response many have had when the beliefs they hold so dearly begin to wobble or collapse. I’d urge anyone with this response to consider a different approach. Read the Bible for yourself, get a reader version or non-study Bible, and just read it. No footnotes or commentary, no subject headers or outlines. Make an effort to set aside your beliefs, start from 0 as best you can and let the Bible tell you what it’s about.

Such a novel idea! "Let the Bible tell you what it's about". Of course Nee and Lee were not the only well-intentioned people who were so self-aggrandizing as to think they were the only guys on the planet uniquely qualified to tell everyone what the Bible is about, (and they won't be the last) but since they are the ones we are all most familiar with, then our sites are going to be squarely set on them and their teachings.
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[aron]

Paul wanted Timothy to stay in Ephesus so that certain ones don’t teach myths, genealogies and such things as lead to speculations and controversy, rather than God’s economy, which is in faith. Nothing about pray-reading, just that it is in faith. To understand what Paul meant in referencing God’s economy, one must look at the ministry of Jesus, of which Paul was disciple, herald, and apostle. Jesus had taught, “Don’t store up for yourselves on earth, where moth consumes and rust destroys, and where thief breaks through and steals. Rather, give to those who can’t repay you on earth, and your reward will be great in heaven.” Clearly this is an economy based on faith. If you don't believe in a heavenly reward, why would you give, on earth? Remember, there was no 7-11 corner store, no Social Security or Medicaid. If you gave away your stuff, you died.

It is also clear that this economy or dispensational arrangement was at the forefront of the gospel work of the early church. In addition to the selling of all things and leaving the proceeds at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:32-35), a clear mark of discipleship, and the feeding of the widows (6:1-7), there was the case of the collection in Antioch for the hungry of Jerusalem, sent through Paul and Barnabas (11:29,30), even called in the RecV a dispensing (12:25) “And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, having completed the dispensing; they took along with them John, who was surnamed Mark.”

The dispensing was to give food to the hungry. Again, look at Jesus’ command: “Blessed is the servant whom the Master returns, when he finds him so doing, truly I say that he will set him over his whole house.” Doing what? Pray-reading? No, “…to give them (i. e, dispense or distribute) their food at the proper time" (Matt 24:45). That, according to Jesus, is God’s dispensation. Those who have, should give to those who do not. And it surely requires faith (and love) to do this!

According to Paul’s account in Galatians 2, when the Twelve acknowledged him as apostle to the gentiles as Peter was to the Jews, they only asked one thing – that he remember the poor. Did he cry, “No! That’s not God’s economy!”? No, rather he said that he was eager to do so! Then, when writing the Corinthians, he opens this up. Remember that in 1st Corinthians he was dealing with many critical issues in the church, but in 2 Cor these were now resolved (7:11) and he could really express his heart's full burden to the gentiles, as seen in chaps 8 and 9.

And he concludes with this: “This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!” (9:12-15) The obedience of the gentiles to the gospel of Jesus Christ was their generosity for the Lord’s people in Jerusalem.

To conclude, while the scripture (cf Jer 15:16) does say that God's word is food, and gives life, it never says that this occurs via pray-reading. Instead, Jesus says that his food is in his obedience to the Father's will, expressed in His word (John 4:34). And now, just as he obeyed God’s command (or, word) and lives in the Father's love, so likewise we obey Jesus (15:10). Our obedience to God's will as expressed by Jesus' commands becomes our food, and the basis of our life.

Humankind was made in God’s image but disobeyed, and fell, with the ruinous trail of murder, theft, and lies. Then, just as sin entered through the disobedience of one man, so through the obedience of One, the redemptive path was opened (cf Rom 5). Our singular work is to believe into him, and in his one righteous obedient act, the death on the cross, and then we follow this with our obedience to the gospel, working it out by cooperating in being generous to one another, just as gentile churches were to Jerusalem through Paul.

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God." This is our daily bread.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by aron

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should allow, and follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God."

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Jeremiah 15:15-17
15 LORD, you understand; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are long-suffering—do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake. 16 When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty. 17 I never sat in the company of revelers, never made merry with them; I sat alone because your hand was on me and you had filled me with indignation.

Jeremiah speaks of when the word of God came to him. This is exactly what we see in the first chapter of his book. “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5). Jeremiah initially shows apprehension at such a word, but the Lord insists. “‘Alas, Sovereign LORD,’ I said, ‘I do not know how to speak; I am too young.’ But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not say, “I am too young.” You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,’ declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 1:6-8). We can see that Jeremiah immediately proves that he “ate” God’s word by showing that he was keeping God’s word and doing what God asked of him. As our Lord Jesus declared, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34). In James we also see the importance of keeping God’s word rather than just hearing it: “My dear brothers and sisters, take not of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it — not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it — they will be blessed in what they do.” (James 1:19-25).

The scriptural concept of “eating” can never be divorced from “doing,” yet somehow Lee has conjured up this doctrine of pray-reading which is effectively just a doctrine of verbal phylacteries (Matthew 23:1-12). There is indeed precedent for praying over the scriptures, but Lee’s specific formula for “pray-reading” and for “eating” God’s word is no better than the vain and repetitive actions that Jesus warned against.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACF

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Yes I think we're in full agreement on this. And yes, we were warned explicitly not to follow the repetitive noisemaking path, yet on it we went most of us anyway... it was so enjoyable! But at the end, no transformation, just frustration. I mean, group chanting was such a head rush. I was 'in spirit, on the ground'!

But really, I was just in a state of heightened suggestibility in which I sat through meeting after meeting, training after training, conference after conference, absorbing all the Lee teachings. At that point, he could have sold us fried eggs, told us it was God's economy, and we would have congratulated ourselves on being so fortunate. It was a golden opportunity, his cheerleaders would say, as we sat raptly, transfixed.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I think we're in full agreement on this. And yes, we were warned explicitly not to follow the repetitive noisemaking path, yet on it we went most of us anyway... it was so enjoyable! But at the end, no transformation, just frustration. I mean, group chanting was such a head rush. I was 'in spirit, on the ground'!

But really, I was just in a state of heightened suggestibility in which I sat through meeting after meeting, training after training, conference after conference, absorbing all the Lee teachings. At that point, he could have sold us fried eggs, told us it was God's economy, and we would have congratulated ourselves on being so fortunate. It was a golden opportunity, his cheerleaders would say, as we sat raptly, transfixed.

I must admit that for a time I subscribed to this as well. By the end of my tenure, I saw how vain it was when it all came together: their obsession with Lee's ministry, the neglect of scriptural study, the neglect of their members, their history of intimidation and litigation. My trust in The Lord's Recovery died slowly but surely, and all the while painfully.

[Ohio]

As I exhorted thee to wait at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a differently, neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questionings, rather than *God’s Economy” which is in faith. But the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith

God’s economy, God’s household arrangement, God’s plan, God’s stewardship, etc. has been diversely translated by every translator of the Bible. WL preferred the transliteration of “economy” from the Gk. Oikonomia. That’s fine. Many Greek words just don’t have perfect English words to use and convey the Apostle’s thought.

What really troubled me about WL’s and the Blended’s insistence here was yanking it out of context. We can argue words, but remember the old adage: Text without context is a pretext for a proof text. This saying never was so true as with these verses. How many times (e.g. “a faithful word”, “shepherding words”, etc to start) have I read LSM articles using God’s Economy as a sledgehammer to beat others down? Concerning LSM and DCP how true is another saying: A little knowledge is dangerous.. Never think that LSM is gifted in knowledge from God because they exclusively teach what others do not. Knowledge merely puffs up. But what was Paul saying here? What was on his heart? What was his burden to convey to Timothy?

Paul tells us in plain words: “the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith.” LSM loves to fight for “God’s Economy,” but they completely miss the goal. The miss love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and unfeigned faith. How many times have I seen them totally miss out on love, and instead minister a spirit of condemnation which damaged many a heart, many consciences, and the faith of many.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Jeremiah 15:15-17
15 LORD, you understand; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are long-suffering—do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake. 16 When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty. 17 I never sat in the company of revelers, never made merry with them; I sat alone because your hand was on me and you had filled me with indignation.

Jeremiah speaks of when the word of God came to him. This is exactly what we see in the first chapter of his book. “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5). Jeremiah initially shows apprehension at such a word, but the Lord insists. “‘Alas, Sovereign LORD,’ I said, ‘I do not know how to speak; I am too young.’ But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not say, “I am too young.” You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,’ declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 1:6-8). We can see that Jeremiah immediately proves that he “ate” God’s word by showing that he was keeping God’s word and doing what God asked of him. As our Lord Jesus declared, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34). In James we also see the importance of keeping God’s word rather than just hearing it: “My dear brothers and sisters, take not of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it — not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it — they will be blessed in what they do.” (James 1:19-25).

The scriptural concept of “eating” can never be divorced from “doing,” yet somehow Lee has conjured up this doctrine of pray-reading which is effectively just a doctrine of verbal phylacteries (Matthew 23:1-12). There is indeed precedent for praying over the scriptures, but Lee’s specific formula for “pray-reading” and for “eating” God’s word is no better than the vain and repetitive actions that Jesus warned against.

John 6:57 He who eats me, he also shall live because of me
Matthew 4:4 Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is God breathed
John 4:24 God is spirit, and he who worships him must worship in spirit and truthfulness
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God
John 1:14 And the word became flesh and tabernacle among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father), full of grace and reality
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil


These verses all talk about spiritual eating. The Bible is a spiritual book, God himself is spirit (John 4:24), the Bible is actually God himself (John 1:1). If God is the word, then surely the Bible is good for eating (John 6:57). It's not only biblical to say this, it's literally what God wants from us. He wants to be assimilated into our being so that we express him. Otherwise what are we saved for? Simply for our own ticket to heaven? That's not the scope of what the Bible says. From Genesis chapter 2, directly after creating man he put man in the garden in front of the two trees with the idea that man would eat him. This is the major running theme throughout the entire Bible, and it's how God accomplishes his goal. The Bible is one big book of eating, from the beginning to the end. If you don't think so I'd encourage you to read your Bible more often

Modern Christianity loves to say God's goal is to do things, and to accomplish works. This is a common trope in mainstream Christianity. But actually God didn't tell Adam and Eve to do much. They only had to upkeep the garden. But his central goal for them was focused around their eating. "God cares more for what we are than what we do." -Watchman Nee. God cares for the quality of his craftsmanship. What better material to build with than with himself

But with that said, yes there's more to the Christian life than eating. And works are something that is talked about a lot in the Bible. I went into detail about this on another thread regarding the oneness of the body. Someone said that he experienced oneness in the works. I contend that without the spirit the works are something of the soul. Whether it's the soul or the spirit matters (Hebrews 4:12)

Lee says in the footnotes for Hebrews 4:12-

According to the Bible, man is a tripartite being — spirit, soul, and body (1 Thes. 5:23). Here, in this verse, are the joints and marrow — which are parts of the body — and the soul and spirit.

The foregoing verses describe the children of Israel as falling away from entering into the rest of the good land. With them there were three places:
1) Egypt, from which they were delivered;
2) the wilderness, in which they wandered;
3) Canaan, into which they entered. Their history in these three places signifies the three stages of their participation in God's full salvation.
This is a type of us, the New Testament believers, in our participation in the full salvation of God. In the first stage we receive Christ and are redeemed and delivered from the world. In the second stage we become wanderers in following the Lord; our wandering always takes place in our soul. In the third stage we partake of and enjoy Christ in a full way; this is experienced in our spirit. When we pursue the pleasures of material and sinful things, we are in the world, typified by Egypt. When we wander in our soul, we are in the wilderness. When we enjoy Christ in our spirit, we are in Canaan. When the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, they were always murmuring, reasoning, and chiding. This surely took place in their soul, not in their spirit. But Caleb and Joshua believed in the word of God, obeyed the Lord, and pressed toward the goal. This surely took place not in their soul but in their spirit. At that time the receivers of this book, the Hebrew believers, were wondering what they should do with their old Hebrew religion. This wondering in their mind was a wandering in their soul, not an experience of Christ in their spirit. So the writer of this book said that the word of God, i.e., what was quoted from the Old Testament, could pierce into their wondering like a sharp two-edged sword and divide their soul from their spirit. As the marrow is concealed deep in the joints, so the spirit is deep in the soul. The dividing of the marrow from the joints requires mainly the breaking of the joints. In the same principle, the dividing of the spirit from the soul requires the breaking of the soul. The Hebrew believers' soul, with its wondering mind, its doubting concerning God's way of salvation, and its considering of its own interests, had to be broken by the living, operative, and piercing word of God that their spirit might be divided from their soul.

Our soul is our very self (Matt. 16:25; cf. Luke 9:25). In following the Lord we must deny our soul, our very self (Matt. 16:24; Luke 9:23). Our spirit is the deepest part of our being, a spiritual organ with which we contact God (John 4:24; Rom. 1:9). It is in our spirit that we are regenerated (John 3:6). It is in our spirit that the Holy Spirit dwells and works (Rom. 8:16). It is in our spirit that we enjoy Christ and His grace (2 Tim. 4:22; Gal. 6:18). Hence, the writer of this book advised the Hebrew believers not to stagger in the wandering of their soul, which soul they had to deny, but to press on into their spirit to partake of and enjoy the heavenly Christ that they might participate in the kingdom rest of His reign in the millennium. If they staggered in the wandering of their soul, they would miss God's goal and suffer the loss of the full enjoyment of Christ and the kingdom rest.

In this complex footnote we see how intricate our being is, and how closely related to God's plan the faculties of our being is. We see that the soul life is asked of us to deny (Matthew 16:24) and we see the spirit is the focal point of the Christian life (Romans chapter 8). All of these clues are indicators of what God wants- EATING. God wants us to eat of him as the spirit and to exercise our spirit. The works come out of this practice

Now, as I said on the other thread I believe that the local churches are short in the works department. I believe this is a shortage or a lack that they have for whatever reason. But we can't contend with their theology on eating of Christ as the spirit. To do so would be to contend with the Bible itself. It may be that in fact they themselves are short on eating and enjoying the Lord and this is why they lack in works. But the error of modern Christianity is to focus only on works and totally ignore eating Christ as the spirit. This is a defunct situation. Dead works like Thyatira. However many in the local churches exhibit the condition of Laodicea. They have the knowledge but they've lost the first love. They are in a stagnant condition with no works. Both scenarios are wrong. Christ was balanced in both life and his humanity that exhibited love and care for people through his works of healing, helping, loving, etc. This is short in the local churches from my experience. But we can't say that the Bible is not a book of eating, and we can't say that eating isn't the central theme of God's plan

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by aron

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God." This is our daily bread.

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

The term "economy" appears only a handful of times in the writings of Paul, indicating that it is not of central importance compared to themes like Christ, the cross, repentance, holiness, and salvation, which are extensively emphasized throughout the Bible. Furthermore, the interpretation of "God's Economy" given by Witness Lee as the mingling and dispensing of the Triune God with tripartite man lacks biblical support and is an erroneous teaching. This perceived exclusivity around the concept of "economy" within the Lord's Recovery hinders genuine fellowship with other Christians outside the movement, creating unnecessary division.

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

Yes, the drive for a group to adopt "special practices" seems to have several unholy goals such as to maintain group loyalty through establishing unique terminology & language, to make the Guru feel like he or she has a special connection with God, and to make followers think the same of the leader.

One publication that has helped me to understand this odd drive for "special-ness" within the Recovery was F.B. Hole's Modern Mystical Teachings and the Word of God.

Link: https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/ModernM...eWordofGod.pdf

P.S.

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

If the term God's economy is as Lee defined it- 'Oikonomos' in the Greek, which means household manager, or household arrangement, then it would seem that BOTH Lee's interpretation and your definition here are correct. However you also bring up a solid point in that Lee mostly only focuses on the dispensing of the spirit as opposed to the other aspects of a household arrangement, or household management. I think this is a great point you're making in that Lee for the most part downplays important aspects of the Bible that aren't directly linked to large terms that he constantly hits on such as 'the triune God' 'the mingled spirit, 'exercising the spirit,' etc. And because of the extreme adoration the LC has for Lee they follow this absolutely. To the point where very large matters such as marriage, sin, works of practical care, kindness, love, fellowship, compassion (things you mentioned), all take a very distant second to the core things Lee always hit on. It's not that Lee never touched on these other things, he absolutely does and did, but it's always within the scope of his major points of the spirit and mingling. I guess in a sense that's kinda ok and good in a way, because I think if Jesus is the spirit then we should run everything by the spirit first and foremost, which i think is his point by that. But also when you spend lots of time with the LC you start to realize that they put almost NO emphasis on other things. It's just solely the same major points about dispending and the spirit OVER AND OVER AND OVER, just repackaged, recooked, reheated, rehashed, etc. in different ways according to their supposed revelation. Essentially all they're doing is talking about the same points over and over again but just changing their words around each time. Which does not seem balanced

Again if you meet with the LC you realize that this is all they talk about. They rarely talk about practical points from the Bible like you said. So while although I can't say Lee and the LC are objectively wrong to talk about the mingling, the spirit, calling on the Lord, morning revival, contacting God etc. I can that they are not balanced in their focus and teachings. On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, and the triune God, etc.

So we have an imbalance of both camps, which I'm seeing is a running theme here with regards to the talks about the different practices between the LC and the denominations

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

If the term God's economy is as Lee defined it- 'Oikonomos' in the Greek, which means household manager, or household arrangement, then it would seem that BOTH Lee's interpretation and your definition here are correct. However you also bring up a solid point in that Lee mostly only focuses on the dispensing of the spirit as opposed to the other aspects of a household arrangement, or household management. I think this is a great point you're making in that Lee for the most part downplays important aspects of the Bible that aren't directly linked to large terms that he constantly hits on such as 'the triune God' 'the mingled spirit, 'exercising the spirit,' etc. And because of the extreme adoration the LC has for Lee they follow this absolutely. To the point where very large matters such as marriage, sin, works of practical care, kindness, love, fellowship, compassion (things you mentioned), all take a very distant second to the core things Lee always hit on. It's not that Lee never touched on these other things, he absolutely does and did, but it's always within the scope of his major points of the spirit and mingling. I guess in a sense that's kinda ok and good in a way, because I think if Jesus is the spirit then we should run everything by the spirit first and foremost, which i think is his point by that. But also when you spend lots of time with the LC you start to realize that they put almost NO emphasis on other things. It's just solely the same major points about dispending and the spirit OVER AND OVER AND OVER, just repackaged, recooked, reheated, rehashed, etc. in different ways according to their supposed ongoing revelation, which really is just the speaking brothers rearranging things Lee has said. Essentially all they're doing is talking about the same points over and over again but just changing their words around each time. Which does not seem balanced

Again if you meet with the LC you realize that this is all they talk about. They rarely talk about practical points from the Bible like you said. So while although I can't say Lee and the LC are objectively wrong to talk about the mingling, the spirit, calling on the Lord, morning revival, contacting God etc. I can surmise that they are not very balanced in their teachings. I think this leads to a lot of neglect and problems that stem from neglect of other things in the Christian walk. I think this is why so often people get ignored, their problems get swept under the rug, and it gives the elders and leaders plausible deniability to be somewhat lazy in helping the congregation. It's easy to just push off someone's problems by saying something like "Oh you just need to exercise your spirit more," or "just turn the Lord brother, everything will be ok." Which is an easy out for not helping people in a real, lasting, and practical way. I've seen this happen a lot actually in my time with the LC. People's problems get ignored or just shucked off in lieu of some broad sweeping generality that they package into a maxim

On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't at all balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, transformation, and the triune God, etc.

So we have an imbalance of both camps, which I'm seeing is a running theme here with regards to the talks about the different practices between the LC and the denominations. It seems that the answer to both the problems of each camp is somewhere in the middle. The LC tends to be very much too extreme in many ways, and the denominations tend to be too basic. Of course I am not at all endorsing the denominations as I believe that Nee and Lee are objectively correct about them according to the Bible

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

……The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, and the triune God, etc.

NEVER? How do you know this? Have you visited every church congregation in America?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

NEVER? How do you know this? Have you visited every church congregation in America?

Yes I have

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't at all balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, transformation, and the triune God, etc.

Jay, just take the loss rather than countering with childish sarcasm. You know this statement is not true. I know it's not true. Many denominations speak on the spirit of man, which is what gives us the ability of higher thought and the ability to commune with the Holy Spirit. I've been to Baptist, Pentecostal, and nondenominational churches, and they all touch on the spirit of man and our relation to the Holy Spirit. I was aware of this even while within the other denominations.

As for "mingling," most churches don't believe we "become God" like Lee taught. There's a reason the word "mingling" fell out of use for centuries. Most of the churches I've been to teach on us becoming closer and closer to God, being conformed to his image more and more as we grow in our Christian life and subsequently becoming more and more like God through the way we live and interact with one another and the world. I could see this even while within the other denominations.

On the matter of "dispensing," most churches know that we receive the dispensing of the Holy Spirit and that we receive this dispensing in many ways. It may appear through gifts or healing or wisdom or the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galatians. Lee wanted to sound special by turning the spirit into some yummy snack we can munch on every day, but this is not different than what Christians have already known for centuries: we seek the Lord, we receive the Holy Spirit, and we grow as we become one with the spirit. We seek continuously in order to grow continuously. I knew of this even while within the other denominations.

On the matter of "exercising the spirit," Lee erroneously established a false dichotomy between the spirit and the soul. Look at the function of the spirit of man throughout the bible. Even without the dispensing of the Holy Spirit, man's spirit is what gives him the ability to reason and to think and to feel. Man's spirit is capable of thought and emotion and will. There's a reason the soul an spirit of man are likened to bone and marrow. You cannot reasonably separate one from the other. Lee's concept of "exercising the spirit" is just another way of using new vocabulary to try and sound like he discovered something grand and mysterious, but in reality any man who uses a reasonable mind to know God and seek him and pray to him and follow him is already "exercising the spirit" because he is seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I feel like making a point on "contacting God" would be redundant. Anyone who seeks the Lord is contacting him. Anyone who sets their hearts on God is contacting him. This is nothing new.

Prophesying: most churches I've been in give opportunity to their members to speak the word of God through the use of smaller bible studies and gatherings. That many of them get together for a bigger sermon does not negate this. Jesus and the apostles also made use of larger meetings and sermons to teach. Those in the Lord's Recovery have a very similar format whether they admit it or not. They have several days-long trainings and conferences and meetings where there is one main speaker giving an extended message for hours and then they have the prophesying meetings where everyone can have a chance to speak (though often times the only thing that was accepted was Lee's doctrines). The point is that many members of many churches "prophesy" when they get together to study the word of God and build each other up. Iron sharpens iron. Building the body of Christ. This is not something Lee came up with. It is foolish to think that such things do not exist outside of The Lord's Recovery.

Transformation: are we really having to tell you about this, Jay? The transforming power of the spirit? Really? You're really going to tell me that not a single assembly you've been to outside of The Lord's Recovery has ever in their history spoken on this? Where in the world are you where you can so boldly and foolishly make such a claim? What backwater spiritual desert have you been killing yourself in to feel that no other denomination besides the Lord's Recovery speaks on these things? Your locality must be woefully pathetic if this is the conclusion that the assemblies in your area have led you to. Either that, or you're once again just buying into Recovery dogma and reflexively making unfounded statements like "no one else does this!"

That's literally the whole point that Thankful made. Lee just took some very common biblical ideas, used a set of vocabulary words that no one else uses, and used some good ol' fashioned eisegesis to twist things here and there to seem like he came up with so many grand ideas that you can't ever find anywhere else. The fact that you so confidently use your all-caps NEVER and respond with petty sarcasm shows that the dogma of Lee is strongly embedded in you. You need to take a few steps back and consider the grand task of getting over yourself before taking such a huge dump on all of the other denominations. Think for a moment, Jay.

And as for the Triune God: I'm not even going to grace this one with a rebuttal.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Jay, just take the loss rather than countering with childish sarcasm. You know this statement is not true. I know it's not true. Many denominations speak on the spirit of man, which is what gives us the ability of higher thought and the ability to commune with the Holy Spirit. I've been to Baptist, Pentecostal, and nondenominational churches, and they all touch on the spirit of man and our relation to the Holy Spirit. I was aware of this even while within the other denominations.

So you've been to denominations that know what the spirit is and practice exercising their spirit? They call on the Lord, pray read, and are in tune with how their spirit functions and they know how to live in their spirit, which is connected to God's spirit?

I doubt it sir

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

As for "mingling," most churches don't believe we "become God" like Lee taught. There's a reason the word "mingling" fell out of use for centuries. Most of the churches I've been to teach on us becoming closer and closer to God, being conformed to his image more and more as we grow in our Christian life and subsequently becoming more and more like God through the way we live and interact with one another and the world. I could see this even while within the other denominations.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ
John 15:4 Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing
6:15a Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?

All these verses (there's plenty more than just these few) prove that we are not only organically connected to God when we turn to our spirit, but that we can and should live by his life in our spirit. This is very different from merely being "like" God

The denominations are famous for imitating Christ....."what would Jesus do," type of concepts held there. But that is far far short of what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately this is why so many Christians are actually following a type of law that is outside of Christ and what God wants. Very sad

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I feel like making a point on "contacting God" would be redundant. Anyone who seeks the Lord is contacting him. Anyone who sets their hearts on God is contacting him. This is nothing new.

Not really. Romans 8:6 says 'For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace'

What that verse DOESN'T say is 'He who seeks the Lord and sets his heart on the Lord will be in their spirit and have life and peace.' It says that the person who uses his mind to set himself on the spirit will have life and peace as a result. The important words in that verse are mind and spirit. This implies an exercise and a definite directional practice. We all seek God in a general way, but there's a difference between seeking God and contacting God. The difference there is crucial. One can certainly seek out the knowledge of a car engine, learn about its parts and how they function, but until one turns the key the engine will not start. How can we get into our spirit if we are not exercising our spirit? At best it would be some kind of mystical intermittent experience that may or may not happen if the stars align and everything is going right. Like lighting strikes or something. OR......you could just figure out how to "turn the engine on" and then you can contact God any time you like

Do the denominations teach this? I don't think so

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Prophesying: most churches I've been in give opportunity to their members to speak the word of God through the use of smaller bible studies and gatherings. That many of them get together for a bigger sermon does not negate this. Jesus and the apostles also made use of larger meetings and sermons to teach. Those in the Lord's Recovery have a very similar format whether they admit it or not. They have several days-long trainings and conferences and meetings where there is one main speaker giving an extended message for hours and then they have the prophesying meetings where everyone can have a chance to speak (though often times the only thing that was accepted was Lee's doctrines). The point is that many members of many churches "prophesy" when they get together to study the word of God and build each other up. Iron sharpens iron. Building the body of Christ. This is not something Lee came up with. It is foolish to think that such things do not exist outside of The Lord's Recovery.

Yeah naw, the pastoral system amongst the denominations is obvious and blatant clergy-laity. This goes against 1 Corinthians 14:26-31


14:26 What then, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two, or at the most three, and in turn, and one should interpret;
14:28 But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church, and speak to himself and to God.
14:29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.
14:30 But if something is revealed to another sitting by, the first should be silent.
14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged

What does verse 26 say? It says 'WHEVENEVER you come together.' It doesn't say 'only at certain set times can the members function to build up the church. It says that ALL can prophesy, not just the clergy, aka the paid pastor who gives sermons for his salary. That's a degradation and is one of the largest tactics satan used historically to damage the church. It's also complete heresy. You will not find that concept in the Bible of only one man speaking while the congregation passively sits by and listens for two hours

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Transformation: are we really having to tell you about this, Jay? The transforming power of the spirit? Really? You're really going to tell me that not a single assembly you've been to outside of The Lord's Recovery has ever in their history spoken on this? Where in the world are you where you can so boldly and foolishly make such a claim? What backwater spiritual desert have you been killing yourself in to feel that no other denomination besides the Lord's Recovery speaks on these things? Your locality must be woefully pathetic if this is the conclusion that the assemblies in your area have led you to. Either that, or you're once again just buying into Recovery dogma and reflexively making unfounded statements like "no one else does this!"

How can one be transformed by the spirit if one doesn't actually exercise their spirit?

Also where's Neil at? The other day I got reprimanded for being half as condescending as you are being now. Or is it only the people who totally bash the LC and Lee are able to get away with blatant mocking like this?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

On the matter of "exercising the spirit," Lee erroneously established a false dichotomy between the spirit and the soul. Look at the function of the spirit of man throughout the bible. Even without the dispensing of the Holy Spirit, man's spirit is what gives him the ability to reason and to think and to feel. Man's spirit is capable of thought and emotion and will. There's a reason the soul an spirit of man are likened to bone and marrow. You cannot reasonably separate one from the other. Lee's concept of "exercising the spirit" is just another way of using new vocabulary to try and sound like he discovered something grand and mysterious, but in reality any man who uses a reasonable mind to know God and seek him and pray to him and follow him is already "exercising the spirit" because he is seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged word, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ


These verses prove there is a definite difference between man's spirit and man's soul

Genesis 2:7 Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul


This verse proves that God made man a living soul, NOT a living spirit. Man is a soul, not a spirit. But man has a spirit within him (Job 32:8)

So it's not Nee or Lee who is separating the spirit from the soul, it's literally the Bible


Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 tell us that to contact our spirit we need to exercise it by calling on the name of the Lord

You are doing a very poor job of attacking Lee here sir. I think you need to read the Bible more often and get your points sorted out. But probably if you did that you would lose your basis for attack in the first place, so I guess nevermind

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

On the matter of "dispensing," most churches know that we receive the dispensing of the Holy Spirit and that we receive this dispensing in many ways. It may appear through gifts or healing or wisdom or the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galatians. Lee wanted to sound special by turning the spirit into some yummy snack we can munch on every day, but this is not different than what Christians have already known for centuries: we seek the Lord, we receive the Holy Spirit, and we grow as we become one with the spirit. We seek continuously in order to grow continuously. I knew of this even while within the other denominations.

John 4:24 He who worships must worship in spirit and truthfulness

John 6:57 He who eats me he also shall live because of me

Zechariah 4:6 And he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of Jehovah to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says Jehovah of hosts

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace


How can we receive the dispensing of God if we are not exercising our spirit sir? How can we be one with God if we are not exercising the right organ to contact him?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

The term "economy" appears only a handful of times in the writings of Paul, indicating that it is not of central importance compared to themes like Christ, the cross, repentance, holiness, and salvation, which are extensively emphasized throughout the Bible. Furthermore, the interpretation of "God's Economy" given by Witness Lee as the mingling and dispensing of the Triune God with tripartite man lacks biblical support and is an erroneous teaching. This perceived exclusivity around the concept of "economy" within the Lord's Recovery hinders genuine fellowship with other Christians outside the movement, creating unnecessary division.

This is an interesting take, which seems to be generally held by people on this forum

I wonder then what is the major theme of the Bible if not God being dispensed into his redeemed members? Personally I can see no greater emphasis than that in the Bible. How can we be holy and righteous outside of Christ? How can we live the Christian life outside of Christ? How can we do any of it through Christ if God doesn't dispense himself into us somehow? It seems that the spirit and its dispensing into our being is the mode and means by which everything in the Christian life is accomplished. Otherwise it would be just us trying to do it all, and we know from Paul's experience that that's futility

BUT, with that said, if Lee and LC leadership uses any major point, even a core correct major point, as a means and mode of control (physically or mentally) then of course that's a big problem that needs to be addressed

If they are doing this, is it knowingly? Or is it perfunctory in order to keep up a type of culture? Lends to a lot of questions