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Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee

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Old 05-04-2021, 06:40 AM   #1
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

So let's show how Galatians fits into the whole of the administration/plan of God.

Ch 1: Paul spent the first chapter laying out that Christ was the gospel, not the law. He also provided his credentials to speak on the subject.

Ch 2: He continues his standing among the apostles by telling of his acceptance by the other apostles, and his stature to even put Peter in his place for duplicity.

Cn 3 & 4: Paul lays out how salvation is because of faith in the works of Christ and not because of our own works of any kind. This carries on through both chapters.

Ch 5: Paul states that we are free and to not allow themselves to become enslaved. Without saying anything about all aspects of our freedom, this passage is talking about freedom from the ritual, dietary, etc., laws of Judaism. Then he turns to living by the Spirit, providing both negative and positive evidence.

Ch 6: Helping each other when temptations arise. Doing good, living in the new creation.

Within most of this, Paul makes reference to the reasons that we can stand strong. For example, he notes that he is crucified with Christ. The implication is not to encourage the Galatians to work at becoming crucified with Christ, but to understand that it is the truth and that they can rely on that as a means to succeed. As Peter would put it, to recognize that we have what it takes for life and Godliness.

The point of the letter was not to provide a bunch of spiritual things they needed to work at, but a bunch of spiritual truths that they could rely on to live and follow in the manner Christ desired.

Short enough? (I thought that the overview of the book would be worth the extra words.)

One the whole, my observation is that the inner-life teachings are too engaged in dealing with the spiritual and too disengaged from dealing with life and Godliness
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

And Christians engaged in life and Godliness as image-bearers of God is a good description of "God's economy."
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

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Within most of this, Paul makes reference to the reasons that we can stand strong. For example, he notes that he is crucified with Christ. The implication is not to encourage the Galatians to work at becoming crucified with Christ, but to understand that it is the truth and that they can rely on that as a means to succeed. As Peter would put it, to recognize that we have what it takes for life and Godliness.
Although this seems different from my post, at least in emphasis, they run on parallel tracks. The gentiles have by faith been given everything they need, if they would just believe the truth of the gospel. There is no need to judge one another if their works are "empty and joyless" or "filled with the indwelling Christ." Simply believe, and obey. The truth is the truth, irrespective of your current status, whether you subjectively lay hold or not. (because of sin, we should never judge ourselves as having attained, or others as lesser - "most Christians don't see"...)

I'd like to tell a short story to illustrate my point. Jesus told them, "Wait in Jerusalem for the coming power" (Acts 1:4-8), and it says they waited, praying day and night for this (1:14; 2:1). Now, if they didn't yet have the power, how could 120 people pray together for 10 days? If you heard of a gathering of 120 people all together praying day and night, wouldn't you say they were filled with the Holy Spirit? But the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out! But what did they have? They had the command. They were not empty. The command also has power. So if God tells you to do something, don't stress if you are "doing it with Christ" or not. Just do what God's word says. It is very plain. The "inner life" will follow. The command is in black-and-white.

Don't put the cart in front of the horse. If you focus on the cart, you will be led astray by your feelings, and those who'd manipulate you based on your feelings. Haven't we seen this played out in full?

(The above is my attempt to say 'amen' to OBW's post.)
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

One of the more troublesome things in Galatians to me is that Paul says Christ becomes of no effect to them if they put their trust in works of the flesh. But I believe that this is being sent to people who first believed in Christ, then were hoodwinked into following after Jewish rituals. So the question is whether Paul really means that Christ is of no effect (as in some kind of losing, or almost losing of salvation) or is he saying that their continued life has ceased to follow on according to Christ and the Spirit, and become stagnant because they have put their daily trust in those rituals.

I know that someone will suggest that doing the kinds of "works" that even Christ directly commands is included in these works of the flesh, but I do not agree. This is about the befuddlement brought on by the Judaizers, not by obeying the commands of Christ. And Paul's words about being crucified with Christ, and living "in Him" (among other things) is not to direct them to chase after this experientially (though they will experience it), but to move on like it is true — BECAUSE IT IS.
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:58 AM   #5
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What is God's economy? it is living the life commanded as the result of what we are taught. As examples:
  • Being poor in spirit.
  • Hungering and thirsting for righteousness
  • Being generous and loving to your neighbor as you would to yourself
  • Being salt and light in the world
  • Showing "justice" to those in need (e.g., the widow, orphan, alien, etc.)
  • Fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law
  • Being a servant to all
  • Obeying all that God/Christ has commanded (continue in my word then you will know the truth . . . . That means follow it; do what it says; not just read it a lot)
  • All the "one anothers"

And so on.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

I would suggest that if God does have "an economy" (a dubious notion I believe), then it cannot be in contention with, much, much less, antithetical to the Gospel as presented to us in the Person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is great danger in taking the teachings and theology of the apostle Paul, and taking them to be superseding those teachings, sayings and parables of Jesus Christ during his life and ministry here on earth.

There is a quote attributed to Mahatma Gandhi "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Laying aside for a moment the identity of the messenger (which is questionable anyhow) I have always considered this stinging condemnation of us modern day Christians as a legitimate indictment from God himself. Also, taking into consideration the life and times and history of the main proponents of this notion (God's economy) - Witness Lee and his followers - we should all find it painfully obvious that this teaching is not only unbiblical, it is virtually antithetical to the Gospel.

Witness Lee claimed that Paul's teachings in Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were "the heart of the divine revelation". Well I would contend that the heart of the divine revelation can only be discovered in the heart of the divine Revelator, and the heart of the divine Revelator is originally, and most profoundly, revealed to us in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Our beloved apostle Paul did not teach
"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt 5:48) "You therefore" follows 5 crucial verses: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"

Brothers and sisters, friends, enemies, lurkers. There is a very good reason why the wise men who decided to order the books of the New Testament in the order that they did. The Gospels are first.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:14 AM   #7
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Witness Lee claimed that Paul's teachings in Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were "the heart of the divine revelation".
There was a participant several years back who drove us crazy with some of his dogmatic views on things. But one of his dogmas, while overdone, was to assert that the core of the NT is the gospels. In this one item he was (and probably still is) right.

During the recent era of "emerging" and "emergent" church thinking, there was a general disdain for Paul because they see in the bulk of Christianity a tendency to use Paul as the gospel and almost dismiss the actual gospels. Turns out that they didn't really dislike Paul, but rather the inverted way of viewing the NT. So many start with Paul and try to shoehorn the gospels to fit what they think they are getting out of Paul. And they mostly ignore the parts of the gospels that they cant fit into their "Paul" narrative.

But the real way to look at the NT should be similar to what the Jews say about the OT. They essentially say that there is the Law and the Prophets, and the rest is commentary. Layered over the NT, that would be "The gospels are the Gospel. The rest is commentary."

Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels. It is that kind of focus that has brought me to realize that Paul's letters are not about uber-spiritual stuff with a side helping of discipline about their issues. Instead, virtually the whole of each letter is about correcting the totality of the lives of the believers and the rest is very sound spiritual facts that are in their toolbelts for the purpose of succeeding in their daily lives in all aspects. For Paul, there is no spiritual-secular divide. Driving in a manner displaying the image of God is as spiritual as praying — or any other item we think of as "spiritual" when we are considering activities in the totality of our lives. There is no secular living unless we are failing to set our minds on the Spirit and therefore failing to fulfil the righteous requirement of the law.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: What is God's Economy?

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Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels.
Great point! I would add that if you consider the epistles of Paul as the "higher gospel" and the 4 canonical gospels as a "lower gospel", then you are reading both Paul and the gospels wrong. -
I should hasten to add that the term "the heart of the divine revelation" is virtually synonymous with the thought of "a higher gospel".
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Old 01-09-2024, 04:58 PM   #9
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...many start with Paul and try to shoehorn the gospels to fit what they think they are getting out of Paul. And they mostly ignore the parts of the gospels that they cant fit into their "Paul" narrative.

But the real way to look at the NT should be similar to what the Jews say about the OT. They essentially say that there is the Law and the Prophets, and the rest is commentary. Layered over the NT, that would be "The gospels are the Gospel. The rest is commentary."
The gospel version of God's economy was plainly laid out in Matthew 6- “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

The epistolic commentary of Paul aligns with this fully. I list 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as the canonical example, spelled out in liberal detail but it's consistently referenced in his epistles (e. g., Rom 15:25-29, 1 Cor 16:1-4) and in his Acts.

Quote:
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Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels. It is that kind of focus that has brought me to realize that Paul's letters are not about uber-spiritual stuff with a side helping of discipline about their issues.
Paul's acts show him bringing food for the widows of Jerusalem. "11:29 The disciples, as each one was able, decided to provide help for the brothers and sisters living in Judea. 30 This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul...12:25 When Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission, they returned from Jerusalem, taking with them John, also called Mark.."

Then there is the "right hand of fellowship" scene portrayed in Galatians 2, where the pillars of the Jerusalem church ask Paul to remember the poor, to which he replies he's eager to do so. Then to Acts 24:17 where he says that he has returned to Jerusalem with "alms for my nation."

Then all the epistolic enjoinders to set aside something for the poor of Jerusalem make perfect sense. Paul was doing a continuation of the gospel message of Jesus, giving the gentile believers a chance to store up riches in heaven, by giving to the poor while on earth. This is God's economy. Paul told Timothy to remain behind in Ephesus and teach things which result in God's economy, which is in faith, believing that while they are deprived on earth, they have treasure in heaven, where moth cannot consume, and rust cannot destroy, and thief cannot steal.

It's simple, it all fits together, and the gospels and Acts and epistles fit together in lockstep. Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and John are all teaching and doing the same thing.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:51 AM   #10
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And Paul's words about being crucified with Christ, and living "in Him" (among other things) is not to direct them to chase after this experientially (though they will experience it), but to move on like it is true — BECAUSE IT IS.
I think this is a very important point, and can hopefully be seen by some out there who are currently being recruited to chase after the experience via ritualistic noisemaking, what they call "exercise your human spirit." I was caught into this trap, and was in it for years. Even when I was in the FTTA and heard "Don't waste your time" with the widows and orphans, which I knew to be a direct reversal of the gospel message, I stayed. Even when it was clear that I wasn't getting better, and my problems were not magically disappearing, like I'd been told - "Just eat Jesus, brother", I hung on, convinced there was no other way. Even after I left, in disgust and discouragement, after years of 24/7 immersion in the so-called "church life", I still went out to the Community Church in my town and told them (politely of course) how they were deficient by not following "God's economy."

If you can see what OBW's words represent, before you get sucked into the LC vortex, you might find a path more true to the NT text. Because once you are in the house of mirrors that is the LC Hive Mind, it can be very hard to get out. Your thoughts are gone, and you run on their programme. It is hard to rewire yourself.
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