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Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee |
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#1 |
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#2 | |
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It is the difference between God being the Judge, and we being judges. The difference between Christ our High Priest and King of Kings, and us being priests and kings. Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood..." Luke 19:17 "'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' This is really a process over time, described in Romans 8:29: Romans 8:29 says For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. It will not be completed until we receive immortal (and godly) bodies like Christ: 1 Cor 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 1 Cor 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." When we become immortal, we become "gods", essentially. Think of it, do mere mortals live forever? No. Do mere mortals rule the earth? No. Do mere mortals judge even the angels? No. Now consider, that God is the only Judge: James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? Yet later, as "gods", God will give us the privileged to judge the world and angels: 1 Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Judging is a role really reserved for God Almighty alone, especially for His angels. Humans now are lower than angels but will be crowned, or immortalized later: Hebrews 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor Yet it says right there in 1 Cor 6:3 we will judge angels. Therefore we have become like "gods". I like the way CS Lewis describes it: It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship. C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses, rev. ed. (New York: Macmillan, Collier Books, 1980), 18 I like this statement by him and makes me think that the poor and despised of this world such as the homeless, will one day be ruling over the Earth in their immortalized and god-like bodies: 1 Cor 1:26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. C.S. Lewis stated in his book, "Mere Christianity" as follows: The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said. C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, 174—75. Jews and Muslims do not accept Christians calling themselves "sons of God" because they know what it means - that we become like God. Unfortunately because of this truth being suppressed by Satan about humankind's true destiny, many in Christianity today do not know their bible and what it means to call themselves a son of God. They think salvation merely means to go to heaven and have no concept of what lies beyond that. |
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#3 |
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Thank you Evangelical for the long reply. It will take some time for me to look into what you wrote. pardon me for being 'least'.
After quick reading through, I find the long passage text did not answer to; "How is Godhead separated from God? How do you know you are a god (God) without a godhead (Godhead)?" You mentioned 'become god' as if it is implied in the bible, you do not have bible verse that says exactly what you or WL(?) said. C.S. Lewis I do not know but his book should be just another man's writing such as WL's writing is man's writing. You also said 'becomes god' is not now, not until inherit immortality. But I heard LC members proclaimed: I am god(God), I am god(God)! Ron Kangas said: I am god but not the godhead, for example I am not here talking to you at the same time physically present in another city. So I asked: 'how do you know you are a god without a godhead?". |
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#4 | |
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The Scriptures says God calls His representatives, the prophets, 'god' in the psalms: Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. When God says "Ye are gods", this means "I have given you my name and power to rule your people in my stead" (Benson Commentary) This is because they are God's representatives on Earth and carry His Word and authority. So the difference is that god is a representative of God, and God (or Godhead) is God Himself. A Christian is also God's representative on Earth and carry His Word and authority (Mark 16:17). More than that, a Christian is greater than an old testament prophet (Luke 7:28), and is called a child of God or a son of God (Gal 3:26, 1 John 3:2). Yet Christians are not merely representatives in the sense of messengers. Christians are "born again" ( John 3:1-21). That is, we are all first born physically as humans, but we are born a second time by the Holy Spirit. So Christians also bear the image of Christ and the power of God. In Ephesians 1:19 Paul says "I pray that you'll begin to understand the incredible greatness of his power for us who believe.... ". God has given Christians the same power that raised Christ from the dead (Eph 1:19). Furthermore, the church is considered the Bride of Christ: Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25–27) (http://www.gotquestions.org/bride-of-Christ.html) If the Bridegroom is God (Christ as the Son of God is God), then the Bride must equal the Bridegroom, the Bride is god as well. In this sense Christians are 'god' today. There are more aspects I could go into about Christians being or becoming god. |
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#5 | |
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So "you are gods" is Jesus turning the scribes and pharisees' accusations back on themselves. Their judgments of Jesus were politically motivated, revealed their source (satan), and indicated their eventual end - death. Read the entire psalm - all 8 verses. Where does context suggest deification. On the contrary, it suggests massive failure, presumption, and loss.
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#6 |
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Aron,
that is an acute observation, but have you considered, that if God did not regard them as gods, then He could not have said "dying like men/mortals" ? In other words, God truly considered them as gods, yet their behavior meant they must die like men. In other words, they should have been immortal. Verse 6 shows that "god" = child of God. So God regarded them as His children, and "a god" is a child of God. We can note two things, God called them gods ' Ye are gods', it does not say "we are gods", and secondly, Jesus used that verse in his defense against the Pharisees who claimed he was blaspheming for saying He was the Son of God. This is found in John 10:33-36. Jesus was saying, hold on a minute, "if God called your prophets and judges "gods", in Psalm 82, then why are you blaming me for blasphemy when I called myself a Son of God?" Jesus's statement in verse 35 proves again that it was God who called them that. I consulted a number of bible commentaries from here: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/82-6.htm Which all show that use of the word god, child of God, and son of God, are synonymous. You can see, that all commentaries say that God calls them gods in the affirmative, and not in the negative. So if I call myself "god" I am not blaspheming, any more than if I call myself a son of God or a child of God. Some examples: Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges 6. I said, Te are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High (R.V.). I is emphatic. It is by God’s appointment that they have been invested with divine authority to execute judgement in His name. Cp. the language used of the king, Psalm 2:7; Psalm 89:27. Pulpit Commentary Verse 6. - I have said, Ye are gods; i.e. "in my Law I have called you gods" - I have given you this lofty name (see Exodus 21:6; Exodus 22:8, 9), since ye judge on my behalf, "as my representatives" (Deuteronomy 1:17; 2 Chronicles 19:6; Romans 13:1, 2). And all of you are children of the Most High. Not therefore "gods" in the strictest sense, but possessing a derived, and so a qualified, divinity. Barnes: I have said, Ye are gods - See the notes at Psalm 82:1. I have given you this title; I have conferred on you an appellation which indicates a greater nearness to God than any other which is bestowed on men - an appellation which implies that you are God's representatives on earth, and that your decision is, in an important sense, to be regarded as his. And all of you are children of the Most High - Sons of God. That is, You occupy a rank which makes it proper that you should be regarded as his sons. Matthew Poole's Commentary I have said, Ye are gods; I have given you my name and power to rule your people in my stead. Children of the Most High; representing my person, and bearing both my name and lively characters of my majesty and authority, as children bear the name and image of their parents. Gill: I have said, ye are gods,.... In the law, Exodus 21:6 or they were so by his appointment and commission; he constituted them judges and magistrates, invested them with such an office, by which they came to have this title; see Romans 13:1, and so our Lord interprets these words, that they were gods "to whom" the word of God came, which gave them a commission and authority to exercise their office, John 10:35, or rather "against whom" it came, pronouncing the sentence of death on them, as in Psalm 82:7, to which the reference is; declaring, that though they were gods by office, yet were mortal men, and should die. The Targum is, "I said, as angels are ye accounted"; and so judges and civil magistrates had need to be as angels, and to have the wisdom of them; see 2 Samuel 14:20. Jarchi interprets it of angels, but magistrates are undoubtedly meant: |
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#7 | |
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There is study to confirm your view, but I"ll take the minority position, here. The Jews were a strictly monotheistic religion, and to take Jesus' words prima facie here is absurd. No; He was using the absurdity of taking His word at face value, to make the accusers see themselves as God saw them. Failed. Completely unqualified to make judgments on His person and ministry. To support the idea that Jesus is promoting deification of man, here, is to overlook that He's struggling against the "brood of vipers" - He's not interested in theological niceties. This is an extremely antagonistic interchange, and He's turning it back on them. They are the 'gods that failed', who are not gods at all, but fallen men, usurped by satanic power, and whose usurpation of divine authority makes them twice the sons of gehenna as those they piously condemn. Please don't ignore the fact that Jews were strictly monotheistic, in looking for support in "you are gods" phraseology. I'd say that's a big mistake. My opinion, of course.
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#8 | ||||||||||||||
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Genesis 6: 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Job 1: 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 38: 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (2) Are there bible verses that say directly that, christians being sons of God are gods? (3) Psalm 82: 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (KJV) Aramaic Bible in Plain English God stands in the assembly of the Angels and among the Angels he will judge. *** Here ‘gods’ in Psalm 82, in Aramaic bible in plain English is ‘angels’. Quote:
You have not answer to ‘how is Godhead separated from God’. You only make clear the difference between ‘God’ and ‘gods’ using the difference in the capital letter and the small letter of the words: Judge and judges, King and kings, Priest and priests. You do not even attempt something like ‘we are judges but without the Judgehead’. And how do you separate Judgehead from judges? How do you separate Godhead from god? You proclaim you are gods without the Godhead. What gods are you? In the bible there are: ‘god of this world’ or ‘god of this age’, ‘their god is their belly’, ‘all the gods of Egypt’, ‘do not mention names of other gods’, ‘they sacrifice to gods they have never known’, ‘to new gods that have come recently’, ‘so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” …. Quote:
You would substitute the verse to read ‘You have made them to be a godsdom and gods to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth’? Quote:
You would substitute the verse to read ‘But you are a chosen godrace, a royal godshood …’? Quote:
You would change ‘my good servant’ to ‘God’s good god’? Quote:
(2) Romans 8: 28- 30 (recovery version bible) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. *** Called, justified, glorified. *** That’s it. You want to force ‘god without godhead’ into these bible verses? Quote:
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the claw. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Quote:
(2) Recovery version I Corinthians 15: 58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. You would substitute ‘judging’ in place of ‘labor’ in the work of the Lord? Why? Because the result of becoming gods is to ‘judge’? Even judge angels? You seem to use ‘even judge angels’ as a motivation (bait) to ‘become gods’. Quote:
James said brothers and sisters slandering one another or judges them speaks against the law and judges the law. Yet, there is only one Lawgiver and Judge. God is the only judge of the law, for God is the Lawgiver. Judging according to the law is keeping the law. * Yet later, as ‘gods’ … (1)You being now ‘god’ as you proclaim ‘I am god’, quote the bible that who are you to judge your neighbor; yet you judge anyway (not waiting till ‘yet later, as gods’). Point at a (near or distant) neighbour and say ‘the church in New York does not believe in Christ’. (2) You are motivated by ‘the privilege’ to judge? You said, as ‘gods’, God will give us the privileged to judge the world and angels: gods are privileged to judge? That's why you have to be gods? for the privilege Quote:
The Lord’s people will judge the world, not ‘later gods will judge the world’. (2) Recovery version I Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy of the smallest judgements? You would substitute ‘the saints’ to ‘gods’? Revise the Recovery version? Quote:
then you say (your own word): judging is a role really reserved for God Almighty alone, especially for His angels. It is God’s words vs your words, or your words vs God’s word? Is there ‘really’ something you know better about the Almighty God that He himself ‘really’ does not know about? Quote:
Humans now are lower than angels but will be crowned, meaning all human beings will be crowned? will be crowned, or immortalized later: crowned and immortalized meant the same? Quote:
There are also other versions that used ‘them’ … in this verse. Below kjv and recovery version used ‘him’ in place of ‘them’. (KJV) Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (Recovery version) Hebrews 2:7 You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands; The Recovery version grouped Hebrews 2: 5-18 under a topic titled: As the Son of Man -- As Man That means the Recovery version interprets the ‘him’ in Heb 2:7 as the Son of Man – As Man. You quoted Heb 2:7 that used ‘them’ in place of ‘him’, because you need to substitute this word to ‘gods’ to illustrate your deduction of ‘become gods’? Have you betrayed your own version of the bible? or you read the NIV and not the recovery version? hahaha, that’s funny lol … very funny Quote:
You then THEREFORE it: we have become like “gods”. The bible does not say: we will judge angels, therefore we have become like “gods”. It is your THEREFORE, your own words, not God’s word. And what is this: become ‘like’ gods? Are you ‘gods’ as you proclaim? or are you ‘become gods’ as you also say? or are you become ‘like’ gods as you wrote above? Do you ‘really’ know what you say? And what happens to the ‘not the Godhead’ part? Question still not answered. Do you ‘really’ know how you are god without Godhead? |
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#9 | |
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"You are 'gods' . . . but you will die like men. You will fall like the princes." You are 'gods' BUT you are not God. What kind of 'gods' die like men? And fall like the princes? What is our goal, here? As least put it, What gods are you? To discriminate god without the Godhead is an exercise in vanity, against monotheism. "Hear, O Israel, there is One God". . . there are angels that are not God, men that are not God, judges and princes that are not God, fruit trees and steamships that are not God. So to say that we are 'gods' or 'god' but not God is essentially meaningless. A god that is not God, in monotheism, is what? It was merely an excuse to give a conference (or two), print up some books, and keep people distracted for a bit longer. Lee never really had a master plan, that I can see, except how to survive for another day. Stay on the lc throne for one more day.
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#10 | |
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Nice try but 'angels' can mean human messengers. I have consulted bible commentaries about this and they stand maintain the view they are human judges and rulers, not angels. We can see from verse 6 that it refers to humans and not angels. |
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#11 |
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Which verse or chapter makes angels (at least in that instance) out as mere humans? I'd like to look this up.
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#12 | |
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In Pslam 82:1: It says angels only in one version: http://biblehub.com/psalms/82-1.htm The word elohim can mean humans: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm The bible commentaries all say that these 'gods' or 'angels' are people: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/82-1.htm Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges addresses the difference between the Aramaic version and the others, on the matter of whether it refers to actual angels or people. You will note the part I highlighted in bold below which shows that interpreting it to mean angels is incorrect: he judgeth &c.] In the midst of gods (Elôhîm) will he judge. According to the view adopted above, the judges and authorities of Israel are meant by gods. It might indeed be supposed that the poet intended to represent God as holding His court surrounded by angels, like an earthly king in the midst of his courtiers (cp. 1 Kings 22:19; Job 1:2); and so probably the Syriac translator understood the verse: “God standeth in the assembly of the angels, and in the midst of the angels will He judge.” But Elôhîm can hardly have a different meaning from that which it has in Psalm 82:6, where it clearly refers to the judges who are put on their trial; and the address in Psalm 82:2 would be unintelligible if the persons addressed had not already been mentioned. About the word 'angel' in general: The word angel comes from the Greek angelos meaning messenger. the word itself does not indicate whether they are supernatural beings or humans. Translators of the bible always consider the context. Revelation 1:20 is an example of 'angels' meaning church leaders. |
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#13 |
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But behind every judge and prince is an angel, a throne, authority, a power. It has double meaning - both angel and human. Both either are allied against God, or for God. The unjust princes were usurped by evil spirits, and both the princes and spirits (powers, authorities) were destroyed. See Genesis 6, Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2, etc. It has a widespread use in scripture.
See also, with Peter at the gate, "It is his angel", and "Receive the saints for you will entertain angels unawares" and "A man, that is an angel" in Rev 21. The Angel in Revelation 1:20 has also been called the Spirit. "Blessed are those who hear what the Spirit (Angel) is speaking to the churches". Jesus speaks to the Angel of the church, which is a ministering spirit, which then speaks to the church. The angel is a messenger. That's why there are seven churches, seven angels who stand before the throne, and seven spirits (lamps of fire) burning before the throne.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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