What is God's Economy?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

All of those rules and instructions you mentioned have their ultimate purpose in achieving Romans 8:29 and 2 Cor 3:18

2 Cor 3:18 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

These are all true verses. But they are not the starting point. They are the result of the things I mentioned. Lee used your verses to declare that you don't have to actually obey and/or do those things, just "behold and reflect." Sounds so simple. But reflecting is to cause the glory of the Lord to go outward. That doesn't happen when we are not actually hungering and thirsting for righteousness, being a doer of the word, loving neighbor as self.

Even you slip and admit that "God's economy" is the result of all those things that I said. Then it must be the result of many good teachings that are not, in themselves, simply "God's economy." That is the fallacy of Lee's use of the term. He used the term as being the teaching and the cause for negating even the teachings of Jesus. And of his more favorite teacher, Paul.

Let me explain my biggest problem with so many of Witness Lee's "simply" statements. Grace is "simply" Jesus. God's economy is "simply" God being dispensed into man.

In some aspects, those statements are true. But they are incomplete. In the case of "God's economy," it is the difference between the vast array of things that make it up and the simplistic statement that it is "simply" anything. The way Lee wields it, it is like declaring that the vast array of formulas and algorithms that make up the field of Physics are declared to be "simply" physics with no need to study and apply the independent formulas, processes, etc. "We don't need E=mc^2!! Just apply Physics!" he would declare.

No longer a need to care for the widow and orphan. No longer a need to care for right and wrong (especially since it is in the "wrong tree"). No longer a requirement for obedience to the law (not the ritual law, but the law that is summed up on love God and love your neighbor as yourself).

Lee works his way around the Bible dismissing things, or declaring them to mean something that the words themselves could not mean, all because of "God's economy." God's economy was the reason he considered James to be mostly an example of what not to do. And the reason that so much of the Psalms are not worthy of our reading, and considered just the natural concept of the writer.

Maybe it is the natural concept of the teacher that dismisses so much of scripture. It surely wasn't something that was actually found in the scripture that allowed for it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

These are all true verses. But they are not the starting point...

OBW,

In many ways simplicity is more advantageous than complexity. The simplicity of Christ, that we should be like innocent children, that we should
be like Mary not Martha, these are all examples of simplicity.

In nature are many examples of big things coming from simplicity. Trees grow from a simple seed, etc.


Regarding obedience, I'm thinking that your understanding of God's economy falls short and leads you to believe it is somehow against obedience or does not follow obedience.

God's economy is basically trusting and obeying God, by God dispensing Himself into us.

Everyone who has been saved, has been saved because of their obedience to the gospel. So obedience precedes God's economy.

Subsequently, when God's economy causes that person to obey God in some matter or do some good work, that is obedience as a result of God's economy.

If a person obeys God, God will dispense more of Himself into them, therefore this is obedience preceding God's economy.

We can see that God's dispensing is a continual flow or two-way thing between man and God.

It was only a few weeks ago actually that in the meeting we discussed the importance of obedience to God.

"Not caring for right or wrong" - is in the context for obeying God. In other words we obey God not by our own effort of following rules, legalistically, but by following the Spirit.

In the bible some people accused Paul of teaching licentiousness because he emphasized grace. Lee did not teach licentiousness, rather he emphasized God's economy over human effort. The cause of both licentiousness and legalism is in fact our fallen human nature. The solution is God's economy.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The simplicity of Christ, that we should be like innocent children, that we should be like Mary not Martha, these are all examples of simplicity.

Do you think that the comment about Mary v Martha was a universal statement about what Mary did in this one instance v anything that anyone ever does concerning things like what Martha was doing? If you do think that, then you are lost in a context-less world. Ambiguity is your friend.

The comment to Martha about Mary was not a condemnation of what Martha did, but a recognition that the thing that Mary was doing in this particular instance was not to be disdained and set aside for the purpose of other things.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Do you think that the comment about Mary v Martha was a universal statement about what Mary did in this one instance v anything that anyone ever does concerning things like what Martha was doing? If you do think that, then you are lost in a context-less world. Ambiguity is your friend.

The comment to Martha about Mary was not a condemnation of what Martha did, but a recognition that the thing that Mary was doing in this particular instance was not to be disdained and set aside for the purpose of other things.

OBW, by saying it was a "recognition that the thing that Mary was doing in this particular instance was not to be disdained and set aside for the purpose of other things", you have basically confirmed what the Lord's Recovery is all about. Just as Mary's sitting at Jesus feet was better than "much serving", the Lord's Recovery is better in the Lord's eyes than any social or help the poor program because it focuses on the better thing.

So if we criticize the Lord's Recovery for merely sitting at Jesus's feet, preaching the Word, waiting on the Spirit, and perhaps not doing as much social things as other churches, then the Lord would say to us "Leave them alone, they have chosen what is better".

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

OBW, by saying it was a "recognition that the thing that Mary was doing in this particular instance was not to be disdained and set aside for the purpose of other things", you have basically confirmed what the Lord's Recovery is all about. Just as Mary's sitting at Jesus feet was better than "much serving", the Lord's Recovery is better in the Lord's eyes than any social or help the poor program because it focuses on the better thing.

So if we criticize the Lord's Recovery for merely sitting at Jesus's feet, preaching the Word, waiting on the Spirit, and perhaps not doing as much social things as other churches, then the Lord would say to us "Leave them alone, they have chosen what is better".

I must say, Evangelical, this is rich. But, to be blunt, who do you think you're talking to? Maybe you're going for satire?

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

I must say, Evangelical, this is rich. But, to be blunt, who do you think you're talking to? Maybe you're going for satire?

Nell

Hi Nell, I'm talking to the liberal socialist Christians that are in this forum.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi Nell, I'm talking to the liberal socialist Christians that are in this forum.

Ah! Satire it is.

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

OBW, by saying it was a "recognition that the thing that Mary was doing in this particular instance was not to be disdained and set aside for the purpose of other things", you have basically confirmed what the Lord's Recovery is all about. Just as Mary's sitting at Jesus feet was better than "much serving", the Lord's Recovery is better in the Lord's eyes than any social or help the poor program because it focuses on the better thing.

So if we criticize the Lord's Recovery for merely sitting at Jesus's feet, preaching the Word, waiting on the Spirit, and perhaps not doing as much social things as other churches, then the Lord would say to us "Leave them alone, they have chosen what is better".

Your response would seem to indicate that you think that the whole of life is about being ready for the death of Jesus.

This statement by Jesus has a context. It was not a disrespect of Martha's work. It was not a belittling of it. It was a commending of Mary's pouring out of herself in the particular situation and implied that she understood that something significant was coming even if she did not know what.

The idea was not to say that always doing what Mary did was preferable to doing the work we are called to do. But you are very articulate to state that this is what you believe it means and are happy to just ignore the things that are needful in all instances while taking on activities that you think are the current equivalents of what Mary did.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your response would seem to indicate that you think that the whole of life is about being ready for the death of Jesus.

This statement by Jesus has a context. It was not a disrespect of Martha's work. It was not a belittling of it. It was a commending of Mary's pouring out of herself in the particular situation and implied that she understood that something significant was coming even if she did not know what.

The idea was not to say that always doing what Mary did was preferable to doing the work we are called to do. But you are very articulate to state that this is what you believe it means and are happy to just ignore the things that are needful in all instances while taking on activities that you think are the current equivalents of what Mary did.

Thanks OBW.

It seemed that (only?) Mary comprehended the Lord's words about His pending death. Perhaps all the others were carried away by the excitement of Lazarus' rising from the dead. Mary heard, Mary believed, Mary acted decisively (11.2, 12.3), and Mary was commended by the Lord.

Nee and Lee take this home meeting in Bethany to extremes, even to the point of teaching that there "should be" twice as many sisters as brothers in a healthy church life.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your response would seem to indicate that you think that the whole of life is about being ready for the death of Jesus.

This statement by Jesus has a context. It was not a disrespect of Martha's work. It was not a belittling of it. It was a commending of Mary's pouring out of herself in the particular situation and implied that she understood that something significant was coming even if she did not know what.

The idea was not to say that always doing what Mary did was preferable to doing the work we are called to do. But you are very articulate to state that this is what you believe it means and are happy to just ignore the things that are needful in all instances while taking on activities that you think are the current equivalents of what Mary did.

OBW, that is not the correct interpretation of this matter, and I think you need to educate yourself better about this context. Why I say this? because I have educated myself and know the context using a variety of bible commentaries (not just Lee/Nee material, so you cannot accuse me of bias).

For example Matthew Henry's commentary on Luke 10:38-42:

10:38-42 A good sermon is not the worse for being preached in a house; and the visits of our friends should be so managed, as to make them turn to the good of their souls. Sitting at Christ's feet, signifies readiness to receive his word, and submission to the guidance of it. Martha was providing for the entertainment of Christ, and those that came with him. Here were respect to our Lord Jesus and right care of her household affairs. But there was something to be blamed. She was for much serving; plenty, variety, and exactness. Worldly business is a snare to us, when it hinders us from serving God, and getting good to our souls. What needless time is wasted, and expense often laid out, even in entertaining professors of the gospel! Though Martha was on this occasion faulty, yet she was a true believer, and in her general conduct did not neglect the one thing needful. The favour of God is needful to our happiness; the salvation of Christ is needful to our safety. Where this is attended to, all other things will be rightly pursued. Christ declared, Mary hath chosen the good part. For one thing is needful, this one thing that she has done, to give up herself to the guidance of Christ. The things of this life will be taken away from us, at the furthest, when we shall be taken away from them; but nothing shall separate from the love of Christ, and a part in that love. Men and devils cannot take it away from us, and God and Christ will not. Let us mind the one thing needful more diligently.


Martha was at fault for blaming her sister, and secondly at fault for thinking Christ should tell Mary to do Martha's bidding by way of much business.

There is one thing needful we must do more diligently and that is what we focus on.

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

OBW,

"Not caring for right or wrong" - is in the context for obeying God. In other words we obey God not by our own effort of following rules, legalistically, but by following the Spirit.

A believer's relationship with God is tested when things are not going well in his life.

He may be at a struggle to understand why God is letting this thing happen to him. His emotions may be at a turmoil.

In such a situation, simply telling him to "follow the Spirit" is not helpful.

To quote an article I read, he may have the following expressions

“I feel so spiritually dry right now.”
“Why can’t I hear God’s voice?”
“I’m unable to feel God’s presence in my life.”

If on the other hand, he is certain of God's presence, then he may end up following his own sinful desires, and pursue a sinful course of action which he may mistakenly attribute it to the Spirit's leading.

God's word is unchanging. God's standards of "right and wrong" do not change despite our emotions.

The believer should be guided by what God has said to be "right and wrong". That is how we tell he is trusting God:- when he is obeying the bible even when things are not going well and he does not understand why this is happening to him.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

A believer's relationship with God is tested when things are not going well in his life.

He may be at a struggle to understand why God is letting this thing happen to him. His emotions may be at a turmoil.

In such a situation, simply telling him to "follow the Spirit" is not helpful.

To quote an article I read, he may have the following expressions

“I feel so spiritually dry right now.”
“Why can’t I hear God’s voice?”
“I’m unable to feel God’s presence in my life.”

If on the other hand, he is certain of God's presence, then he may end up following his own sinful desires, and pursue a sinful course of action which he may mistakenly attribute it to the Spirit's leading.

God's word is unchanging. God's standards of "right and wrong" do not change despite our emotions.

The believer should be guided by what God has said to be "right and wrong". That is how we tell he is trusting God:- when he is obeying the bible even when things are not going well and he does not understand why this is happening to him.

Well, you've obviously missed something important - following the Spirit is the same thing as following the Word. The Word is the Spirit. When we say follow the Spirit, we mean read the Bible and pray, basically. A good reference on this would be "Christ versus Religion, by Witness Lee", section titled "THE WORD IS THE SPIRIT,
AND THE SPIRIT IS THE WORD".

The alternative to this is to try and obey with our own effort, that does not involve prayer or involves merely Bible reading without touching the Spirit. This is what Lee means by not living according to "right vs wrong".
Lee is not proposing that we do not try and follow what is plainly written in the Bible, and just seek after some spiritual experience. He is stressing the importance of spiritual fellowship with God for obedience rather than trying in our own self.

Example: We read in the Bible where it says we have to obey in some matter. Recognizing our lack of strength to obey in ourselves, we may pray and ask the Lord to give us the ability to obey. This is an example of following the Spirit.

A person living according to "right vs wrong", will read the Bible and know they have to obey in some matter, but they will not ask the Lord to give them the ability. They may not pray at all. They may even ask the Lord to make them a more obedient person in themselves, but this is a dead-letter kind of prayer.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Not caring for right or wrong" - is in the context for obeying God. In other words we obey God not by our own effort of following rules, legalistically, but by following the Spirit.

It is a convenient assumption that the Spirit is not, by definition, behind our willingness to obey the rules as we read them. As if we should not ever read a rule in the Bible and intend to obey it, but should expect it to just flow from the Spirit.

Do I presume then that for someone who lived a life of adultery, that upon being saved he/she should not simply stop it because the Bible says so, but should instead wait for the Spirit to speak to them concerning it? I bet you would declare that surely the spirit would speak on this matter.

But not on the others? If you are a Christian and you see it written that your should [fill in the blank], you should do some spiritual gymnastics until you really feel like you are not doing it from the Spirit? Or is it sufficient to understand that the words are Spirit and upon hearing them that the desire to follow is likewise Spirit, and you are therefore empowered to do it. Doesn't mean that you will successfully do it always. But you cannot excuse not even trying on a lack of Spirit since even Peter declared that you have everything you need for it.

This whole idea of people "doing it in themselves" is mostly an excuse for not even trying instead of trying an sometimes failing. Surely the world does everything, even good, "in themselves." But if you are of Christ, Christ is in you. You have no excuse. There is nothing more you need before you at least try.

An invitation for stumbling otherwise good believers. Invite them to not live the righteous life that God commands and instead live a less-than-righteous life. Seems that Jesus spoke about people teaching that doing less than all of the law as being so offensive that those teachers would find themselves at the bottom of the heap in the Kingdom.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

It is a convenient assumption that the Spirit is not, by definition, behind our willingness to obey the rules as we read them. As if we should not ever read a rule in the Bible and intend to obey it, but should expect it to just flow from the Spirit.

Do I presume then that for someone who lived a life of adultery, that upon being saved he/she should not simply stop it because the Bible says so, but should instead wait for the Spirit to speak to them concerning it? I bet you would declare that surely the spirit would speak on this matter.

But not on the others? If you are a Christian and you see it written that your should [fill in the blank], you should do some spiritual gymnastics until you really feel like you are not doing it from the Spirit? Or is it sufficient to understand that the words are Spirit and upon hearing them that the desire to follow is likewise Spirit, and you are therefore empowered to do it. Doesn't mean that you will successfully do it always. But you cannot excuse not even trying on a lack of Spirit since even Peter declared that you have everything you need for it.

This whole idea of people "doing it in themselves" is mostly an excuse for not even trying instead of trying an sometimes failing. Surely the world does everything, even good, "in themselves." But if you are of Christ, Christ is in you. You have no excuse. There is nothing more you need before you at least try.

An invitation for stumbling otherwise good believers. Invite them to not live the righteous life that God commands and instead live a less-than-righteous life. Seems that Jesus spoke about people teaching that doing less than all of the law as being so offensive that those teachers would find themselves at the bottom of the heap in the Kingdom.

OBW, try for what reason? God has already saved us by His grace, we cannot add to it or take away from it. God does not save us by grace half way and expect us to do the rest ourselves. God sending his Son to die for us on the cross was 100% God and 0% us and that doesn't change after salvation. We are fooling ourselves if we think that we can add to that. There are possibly people who try their hardest and are more righteous according to the Law than those that do not rely on themselves. But this is what the Bible calls self-righteousness.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

OBW, try for what reason? God has already saved us by His grace, we cannot add to it or take away from it. God does not save us by grace half way and expect us to do the rest ourselves. God sending his Son to die for us on the cross was 100% God and 0% us and that doesn't change after salvation. We are fooling ourselves if we think that we can add to that. There are possibly people who try their hardest and are more righteous according to the Law than those that do not rely on themselves. But this is what the Bible calls self-righteousness.

And that is the kind of talk that ignores any kind of sanctification. The belief that any kind of "good" after salvation will just happen.

It is interesting that "you" tend to despise Christianity for being so totally focused on salvation and not "going on" then come back with "we cannot add to it or take away from it" as a response to the notion that our response to salvation should be obedience to the one who saved us.

You are for going on when it you compare it to the sometimes over-focus on salvation at the expense of anything else, then despise anything else if it involves actually doing anything.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

And that is the kind of talk that ignores any kind of sanctification. The belief that any kind of "good" after salvation will just happen.

It is interesting that "you" tend to despise Christianity for being so totally focused on salvation and not "going on" then come back with "we cannot add to it or take away from it" as a response to the notion that our response to salvation should be obedience to the one who saved us.

You are for going on when it you compare it to the sometimes over-focus on salvation at the expense of anything else, then despise anything else if it involves actually doing anything.

OBW,

even our sanctification is by the Spirit, Galatians 3:3 "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

We do not believe that "good" after salvation will "just happen". We focus on God's economy, enjoying Christ, prayer, the Word, the ministry, the church, functioning and service, all opportunities for the Spirit to grow in us and sanctify us.