What is God's Economy?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

True. Christianity is full of merchandising, a lot of it is really shameful. But at least most Christian book-stores allow more than "one publication". So LSM is up there with the rankest of the money-grubbers...

lol you claim my view is subjective, biased, and unfounded, and then you provide your own subjective view. In comparison to much of the material out there, I think Lee and Nee books are quite good. There are many in the denominations who read them and study them, without being 'brainwashed' by the LSM movement. For the most part the mainline denominations are cemeteries. They don't preach Christ crucified. They don't preach the Spirit. They are more focused on promoting their own religion, entertainment, buildings and fund raising than building the church. People sit on the pews and attend every Sunday without doing anything, the priest or pastor does all the work, they are paid to do so. The priest or pastor extorts money from the congregation by claiming they must tithe otherwise they are 'robbing God' and God won't bless them. The only real "spiritual" service they provide is conducting marriages and funerals, animal blessings and in some cases homosexual union or marriage blessings. They criticize each other for not baptizing in a certain way or for raising hands during worship.

They use hand-waving hocus pocus magic in their "communion" rituals. They baptize infants and assure the parents they are saved simply for being splashed with water. The priest or pastor would never let a member of the laity, give a word or message or prophesy from the Spirit. They will bless and approve of couples engaged in fornication and adultery. They will accept Buddhist, or Hindu teachings and many priests or pastors are both Christian and Buddhist, or of dual faith. Then there are the gay and lesbian churches where the gay or lesbian pastors are ordained because have learnt enough from the "real college level texts" of the theologians. So as not to offend anyone the pastor will call God "Mother". I think Lee was very accurate to call them cemeteries, some actually deserve to be called worse.

I bring your attention to the number of denominations who are approving homosexual ordination or blessings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homosexuality

You can see there is a whole lot of green there.

And if you are American (I know you aren't, the "you" is directed at any who may be reading) well this conglomeration of denominations have really dropped the ball with the gay marriage law thing haven't they? All in the name of love and tolerance.

I think yourself and many others here on this forum are delusional in focusing on the problems of the "1% of the Body" local churches, whilst oblivious to the problems of the 99%. Nee/Lee and the LR are a little bit of a shining light compared to the alternative majority - at least they preach the Bible, if not badly. And one of you here have been appealing to the views of this 99% as evidence against the "1% local churches". The same 99% of which a majority are tolerant towards homosexual behavior. I really think it is you lot who have their head stuck in the sand. Since you are so obsessed about speaking about Lee and Nee and the negative goings on, it only proves that you have never really left them, yet blinded to the real condition of the Body.

Now Germany, I haven't even begun to think about the condition of the body of Christ in your own country, I unfairly focus on the Americans. But lets think about it for a moment, many sleepy villages and towns with a local Catholic and Lutheran churches. The Christmas times are beautiful by the way, I really enjoy it, but nothing of Christ. When I went to Germany I couldn't help but fall asleep in the churches. And the many idolatrous things in the great cathedrals and the statues of Mary on the sides of the roads. Again, Lee was kind of accurate to call all of this a cemetery, because everyone seems spiritually dead and sleeping. To think that your country was once the shining light of the Reformation, and now of what it has become. The Lutherans only know when to stand and sit when they are told by the Priest and pray and read the bold letters out of a service book. You don't consider that a cemetery? Now consider the "Verantwortung und Verlässlichkeit stärken", perhaps you would like to read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...nd_Lutheranism

In the year 2000, the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) passed the resolution Verantwortung und Verlässlichkeit stärken, in which same-gender partnerships are supported.[7] In November 2010, EKD passed a new right for LGBT ordination of homosexual ministers, who live in civil unions.[8] The most churches within the EKD allowed blessing of same-sex unions.[9]

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

lol you claim my view is subjective, biased, and unfounded, and then you provide your own subjective view. .

Of course my view is biased. That's why I stay open to the larger Christian conversation. I rarely presume to hold forth the sum total of objective reality, i.e. the High Peak Truth Recovered for the Present Age, and when I do, someone usually says, "Not so fast." The church is a great place to get right-sized. And when I say, "church", I think you know what I mean: all the believers, not the select few.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

Yes they're abominations. But the solution is not to play Little Jack Horner and sit in the corner pulling out Christmas plums and telling yourself what a good boy you are, there on the proper ground. If you really loved the church you'd engage it, not flee from it.

If you engage the church you'll see the light. Or you can hide, and pretend.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes they're abominations. But the solution is not to play Little Jack Horner and sit in the corner pulling out Christmas plums and telling yourself what a good boy you are, there on the proper ground. If you really loved the church you'd engage it, not flee from it.

If you engage the church you'll see the light. Or you can hide, and pretend.

I think we need some genuine light of God's Word:

Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there, Touch nothing unclean; Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves, You who carry the vessels of the LORD.

2 Cor 6:17 Therefore, "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."

2 John 1:9-10 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

James 1:27 Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Can you can offer some verses that show that we should engage with the homosexual-loving and idolatrous denominations?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think we need some genuine light of God's Word:...

Evangelical,

Ever wonder why the local church has such a high churn rate?

Churn rate (sometimes called attrition rate), in its broadest sense, is a measure of the number of individuals or items moving out of a collective group over a specific period of time. It is one of two primary factors that determine the steady-state level of customers a business will support.

Because they realize that the ground of the church and the ministry are a stronghold of unclean things. Worse than the religious world they condemn. "Come out of her, My people" is applicable here, as well. If Protestantism is breeding the daughters of the harlot, then the local church is one of her vilest off-spring.

Having said that, I do love my lc brothers and sisters. It is just that they're under the influence of some rather pernicious teachings. So, like Paul, I hope to provoke a few of them, here.

A long, long time ago, there was a narrative. It concerned the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was the Savior of the world. That narrative indeed became lost over time, at least in the public discourse. People like Luther and Wesley did indeed begin to advance it back to its proper sphere. But Lee's Gods Economy metric is actually a turning away. Instead of God's Christ we get God's New Move, the Feeling in the Body, the Proper Church Life, God's Oracle, Masticating the Processed God, Vital Groups, Full-time Training, Standing Orders, and so forth.

But when you come to the Bible itself, you know what Lee calls it? "Fallen human concepts". Instead of pointing to the coming Messiah, Lee thinks it's just vain human imagination.

This is not a recovery of the narrative, but a turning away. Refuse such teachings.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Evangelical,
Ever wonder why the local church has such a high churn rate?

The loss of members in a church has been recognized to be a church-wide thing, so is not isolated to the LR, so not really a solid argument.

Let's rationally and logically evaluate your claims about it being worse than the religious world it condemns, as you put it.

Is there a systematic abuse of children under a clergy-laity system (or any system) which fosters it and an attitude of cover up at the higher levels?

Has WL and the LR executed Christians in the name of Christ and spilt Christian blood over a long period of time?

Does WL and the LR agree with or support or practice ordination of homosexual ministers, or bless civil unions or marriages?

For the "religious world", I would say the answer is yes to all the above.

Can you say the same for Lee?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The loss of members in a church has been recognized to be a church-wide thing, so is not isolated to the LR, so not really a solid argument.

All churches have attrition, all companies with customers have "churn". But that wasn't my point, at all. My point was on the attrition rate, the so-called churn rate. If you ran a phone company and your underlings said that your churn rate was twice the others', that would indicate dissatisfied customers. If you just shrugged and said, "All phone companies experience churn", you'd be out of a job within 2 years.

I was active in the local church for a number of years, and in non-lc Christianity both before and after. I'd estimate the churn rate of the lc is probably between 2 and 3X the average.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Let's rationally and logically evaluate your claims about it being worse than the religious world it condemns, as you put it.
Is there a systematic abuse of children under a clergy-laity system (or any system) which fosters it and an attitude of cover up at the higher levels?
Has WL and the LR executed Christians in the name of Christ and spilt Christian blood over a long period of time?
Does WL and the LR agree with or support or practice ordination of homosexual ministers, or bless civil unions or marriages?
For the "religious world", I would say the answer is yes to all the above.
Can you say the same for Lee?

I think I remember reading of sexual predators who were ministry zealots were relocated in the local church, but am not sure. If someone has info on this, please let us know. I believe it's possible, however, because of what I do know:

Witness Lee was a lover of money. He defrauded the local church members out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (1970s dollars) to fund his family. If you've never read the DayStar saga, please do. It's an eye-opener. It was created to subsidize neer-do-well son #1, Timothy.

Witness Lee put neer-do-well son #2 Philip in charge of the LSM for what, 12 years? When Philip was caught en flagrante delecto, Witness Lee had injured and aggrieved parties relocated, and those who protested were run out of town.

Or were you not aware of these events? What makes the local church and the LSM worse than the Christianity it condemns is that the lc is based on intolerance and holier-than-thou condemnation of all other groups of believers as devilish, satanic, and dark. By its own measure, the lc, being all those and arrogant as well, is thereby the worst of all.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

"Come out of her, My people" is applicable here, as well. If Protestantism is breeding the daughters of the harlot, then the local church is one of her vilest off-spring.

I actually don't recommend people leave the lc of Lee, nor leave the Methodists or Presbyterians. Paul said, "Wherever you were called, there remain." God may not call you in a favorable location. But an unfavorable location is an opportunity for God's blessing and light to pour through you.

Contrast that to those who withdraw, like the lc, and build pens, and will only attempt meaningful relations with those who enter the pen. "Oh, we don't do ecumenicalism." True, because you don't do anything but sit in your cell and pretend that you have escaped the evil dark world.

But I wanted to write about teaching, not behaviours. Local church behaviour isn't as bad as some of the worst of Christianity, true, but their teaching is right there near the bottom. And this is why: because of their isolationism, they remain stuck in 19th century revelations, and abetted by the "madness of the prophet" (Nee and Lee) in the 20th. Because of their isolationism, when Nee and Lee went in the ditch nobody could stop it; on the contrary all were expected to follow in the interests of promoting oneness.

Consider this: the Bible is the story of Jesus. Man fell, and God so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son, that we might believe and not perish. This narrative did arguably get corrupted, and turned inside out. And Luther for Europe, and Wesley for the English, and the Puritans for North America, and Zinzendorf and others, did indeed begin to recover the story from the text. Justification by faith was important to hold forth to the public. But Nee and then Lee's addendums weren't a progress of this narrative recovery but a trip into the ditch.

Jesus said, "These things were written concerning Me". Lee said, "No they were not. They were just vain words by fallen men." Who are you going to believe? Jesus, or Lee?

Look at Psalm 1 for a prominent example. "Blessed is the man who doesn't go to wicked ways; but who meditates on the word both day and night". . . Lee said this is vanity. Nobody can do this. Um, ever hear of a guy named Jesus the Nazarene? The whole NT shows how Jesus was the fulfillment of positive OT types, and promises, but here, Lee wasn't interested; he had his "economy" metric to promote, and couldn't find it in Psalm 1.

If you want corroboration that Psalm 1 isn't "fallen", look at how Deuteronomy 17:14-20. Especially vv 19 and 20. Vain? Fallen? Natural?

14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. 19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.(NIV)

Then look at Psalm 2. Behold the King! Yes indeed, the same Man as in Psalm 1. Only one Man fulfilled Psalm 1; this man is God's Son in Psalm 2.

Again and again Witness Lee missed Christ, and forbade his followers; if Lee couldn't see Christ, no Christ. Can you imagine being among the attendees getting 'trained', and sitting there as this rubbish came from the podium? Not one peep or murmur from the assembled? Nobody shifted uncomfortably? Because they know that one can only 'amen' the Ascended Master, no matter how badly he mauls the text. The local ground was the holding pen, now you have to eat Lee gruel 24/7.

Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find." Lee said, "Move along everyone, nothing to see here. . ." No seeking allowed in the local church. And no finding.

"We're in the church our home!" No more seeking, and no more finding.

"Home, home in the church, it is here that we've ended our search!" No more seeking, no more finding. How about, "Home, home in the ditch. It is here that we've followed Lee."

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by least

Re: What is God's economy?
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjN8lyDlAdo
*
6.01 min
This is science, the science of fruit bearing, and so 1 person in 5 years becomes 13 persons. and you multiplied yourself 12 times. This is divine economy.

Is God's economy different to divine economy?

Welcome to LocalChurchDiscussions least!

If God does have an "economy", then surely it is clearly expressed, annunciated and defined for us in the Word of God. It must be something that is revealed from Genesis to Revelation. I would point us to today's quote of the day:
"Only one thing validates a message or a messenger: The whole counsel of the word of God."

"The Economy of God" was Witness Lee's seminal work (published in 1968) and much of his ministry in the West was based upon this work.

Although Lee does take us through the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, he does a lot of "adding and taking away" from the biblical text itself. One recent example noted on our forum is this notion that "God became man so that man can become God". As others have so aptly pointy out, this whole idea of man becoming God is not even hinted at, much less openly stated. Yet Lee felt he was qualified to string together a few verses, mix them together with some of his make-it-up-as-you-go-along, home-brewed "theology", and then declare his teaching as "recovered truth". It should be no surprise that this kind of faux biblical theology has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority Christian teachers, scholars and apologists...at least by all the ones who are not bought and paid for by the LC/LSM/DCP

If by "economy" Witness Lee actually meant to convey the whole story and purpose of God in creating and redeeming man, and fulfilling of his eternal purpose and bringing forth the coming of his kingdom, then he was simply off the mark with his "processed triune God dispensing himself into man" teaching. At best, this teaching points us to a few of the trees located in a vast forest, however it "misses the forest for the trees".

-

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At best, this teaching points us to a few of the trees located in a vast forest, however it "misses the forest for the trees".

Obedience. Our faith is in the Obedient One. Now by faith we struggle to follow, and obey. The Spirit sees us in our weakness, and comes to help us. The Paraclete.

Or we can sit in our corner like Jack Horner, and tell ourselves how transformed we must be getting. That is The Economy of God, by Witness Lee.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Again, you try and tell me these are not cemetries? These are abominations.

Why don't you just save some time and call down fire from heaven on them.