What is God's Economy?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

I see what you're saying here, but it doesn't invalidate Lee's doctrine on the economy of God. Actually it just shows that Lee himself misused his position, and the elders and coworkers around him were complicit in his errors. I have read nothing that eludes to Lee believing that the apostles, elders, coworkers etc. have any type of authority over the personal lives of the saints. I'm not saying it's not out there, but I have never read it. And I've read a great deal of LSM material from Nee and Lee in my lifetime. The only thing close to that thought is 'Authority and submission' by Watchman Nee, but I don't think even that thought is in there because Nee is touching on spiritual authority, which is spiritual, and not personal, and doesn't have anything to do with people's personal financial decisions as far as I know. Also being in the church for as long as I have, we rarely if ever talk about authority; spiritual or otherwise. It just never comes up

Jay, are you familiar with Nee’s excommunication by the Shanghai Church? When he was “restored,” which was done without repentance, his first ministerial act was the matter of “handing over.” Members could not be a part of his ministry unless they were willing to “hand over” everything they owned to Née. This was a false spiritual authority which definitely controlled their personal lives.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, are you familiar with Nee’s excommunication by the Shanghai Church? When he was “restored,” which was done without repentance, his first ministerial act was the matter of “handing over.” Members could not be a part of his ministry unless they were willing to “hand over” everything they owned to Née. This was a false spiritual authority which definitely controlled their personal lives.

I've heard the story of his excommunication, but I haven't heard of the "handing over" part. Do you have any links to info or testimonies that could shed more light on this?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, are you familiar with Nee’s excommunication by the Shanghai Church? When he was “restored,” which was done without repentance, his first ministerial act was the matter of “handing over.” Members could not be a part of his ministry unless they were willing to “hand over” everything they owned to Née. This was a false spiritual authority which definitely controlled their personal lives.

Also do you have any links to info or testimonies that could shed more light on WHY he was excommunicated in the first place. The story that I heard was that they falsely accused him of having inappropriate contact with a sister. From the story that I heard it was M.E. Barber whom he was visiting personally at her home and she was simply just his spiritual mentor, which was the reason for the personal visits

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

Also do you have any links to info or testimonies that could shed more light on WHY he was excommunicated in the first place. The story that I heard was that they falsely accused him of having inappropriate contact with a sister. From the story that I heard it was M.E. Barber whom he was visiting personally at her home and she was simply just his spiritual mentor, which was the reason for the personal visits

Jay, years ago I heard a different story, went something like this: WN's mother was living with him. Rumor went out that he was living with a woman. The SCC elders asked him if he was "living with a woman," and he answered "yes." The elders promptly excommunicated him. This just proves how "pure" WN was, he let his "yes" be yes, and his "no" be no.

We all believed that story, thinking WN was the holiest man on earth. Later on I re-thought the whole story. The elders of the Shanghai Christian Church were all appointed by WN, and worked with him for years. To believe this story one must also believe that these elders were all complete dunces, who never checked out the facts of the matter.

Several years ago a book was written by Dr. Lily Hsu, a retired doctor now in the US) who was a witness to these events in Shanghai before the Communist takeover. There has been much discussion on this forum concerning her (auto)biography. The book was also available online to read free of charge. Many of the posters here found Hsu's account of facts quite compelling and changed our long-held hagiographical views of Nee. You are welcome to investigate for yourself.

My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Before this book on Nee was written, I had already done a somewhat extensive study on both WL (from 2006 to 2010) and JNDarby (from 2002 to 2005), with WN were supposedly all successive "ministers of the age" or MOTA's. After that study I no longer believed any history that I ever heard from WL without second source corroboration. Also I no longer embrace any of JND's writings, based on how he treated other Christian ministers. In order to accept any of them as MOTA's, one must believe untold lies and exaggeration of facts.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, years ago I heard a different story, went something like this: WN's mother was living with him. Rumor went out that he was living with a woman. The SCC elders asked him if he was "living with a woman," and he answered "yes." The elders promptly excommunicated him. This just proves how "pure" WN was, he let his "yes" be yes, and his "no" be no.

We all believed that story, thinking WN was the holiest man on earth. Later on I re-thought the whole story. The elders of the Shanghai Christian Church were all appointed by WN, and worked with him for years. To believe this story one must also believe that these elders were all complete dunces, who never checked out the facts of the matter.

Several years ago a book was written by Dr. Lily Hsu, a retired doctor now in the US) who was a witness to these events in Shanghai before the Communist takeover. There has been much discussion on this forum concerning her (auto)biography. The book was also available online to read free of charge. Many of the posters here found Hsu's account of facts quite compelling and changed our long-held hagiographical views of Nee. You are welcome to investigate for yourself.

My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Before this book on Nee was written, I had already done a somewhat extensive study on both WL (from 2006 to 2010) and JNDarby (from 2002 to 2005), with WN were supposedly all successive "ministers of the age" or MOTA's. After that study I no longer believed any history that I ever heard from WL without second source corroboration. Also I no longer embrace any of JND's writings, based on how he treated other Christian ministers. In order to accept any of them as MOTA's, one must believe untold lies and exaggeration of facts.

I believe I read some of her accounts awhile ago regarding Nee. If what she claims is true about Nee then it doesn't sound like the CCP was wholly incorrect for accusing him of being a sexual degenerate. At any rate, I can't say I believe one thing or another. I don't know. It's possible. We all have a strong flesh that wars against our spirit. Does this disqualify him from being a MOTA (or we could argue that there's no such thing as a MOTA anyway, which I've heard others on this site claim)? Maybe, we could also infer that if it's true then God did come in and damage his ministry, and maybe Nee went downhill after that. How long was the resumption of his ministry? 5-10 years? I forget the timeline but he was always under scrutiny and suffering. Not like he had an easy time. And his twenty year imprisonment was probably hell. So maybe God came in and judged idk. Or maybe those sufferings were just general and prescribed for his transformation (Hebrews 2:10). But it doesn't discount what he set up in my view. That's like disregarding the message because the messenger isn't fully right. The message may still be true regardless of the behavior of the messenger. Where this focus on the messenger needing to be totally blameless for the message to be true or received idk where that concept came from. But I will say that if that behavior from Nee is true then it disqualified him from a leadership position according the Bible. Does that annul his message? Does that annul the local churches? I'm sure satan would like it too. But God uses highly damaged, highly fallible men. Look at the personal lives of David, Solomon, and Paul. They were lechers and murderers. Yet they have the highest experiences of the spirit in the entire Bible, and they are personally responsible for setting up God's kingdom on earth. If we throw out the work of Nee and Lee then certainly we have to throw out the books that David, Solomon, and Paul wrote. Do we not?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jay

I believe I read some of her accounts awhile ago regarding Nee. If what she claims is true about Nee then it doesn't sound like the CCP was wholly incorrect for accusing him of being a sexual degenerate. At any rate, I can't say I believe one thing or another. I don't know. It's possible. We all have a strong flesh that wars against our spirit. Does this disqualify him from being a MOTA (or we could argue that there's no such thing as a MOTA anyway, which I've heard others on this site claim)? Maybe, we could also infer that if it's true then God did come in and damage his ministry, and maybe Nee went downhill after that. How long was the resumption of his ministry? 5-10 years? I forget the timeline but he was always under scrutiny and suffering. Not like he had an easy time. And his twenty year imprisonment was probably hell. So maybe God came in and judged idk. Or maybe those sufferings were just general and prescribed for his transformation (Hebrews 2:10). But it doesn't discount what he set up in my view. That's like disregarding the message because the messenger isn't fully right. The message may still be true regardless of the behavior of the messenger. Where this focus on the messenger needing to be totally blameless for the message to be true or received idk where that concept came from. But I will say that if that behavior from Nee is true then it disqualified him from a leadership position according the Bible. Does that annul his message? Does that annul the local churches? I'm sure satan would like it too. But God uses highly damaged, highly fallible men. Look at the personal lives of David, Solomon, and Paul. They were lechers and murderers. Yet they have the highest experiences of the spirit in the entire Bible, and they are personally responsible for setting up God's kingdom on earth. If we throw out the work of Nee and Lee then certainly we have to throw out the books that David, Solomon, and Paul wrote. Do we not?

Jay, the questions you ask at the end of your post here are the kind of questions the co-workers rhetorically ask in their articles, as if the obvious answer is "no" and the juggernaut of the ministry and the local churches should just continue on unabated, crushing all the victims in its path forever. But there are real answers to those questions.

What is the difference between David, Solomon, and Paul's sins versus Nee and Lee's sins?

REPENTANCE.

This distinguishes these two camps as far as the east is from the west. Rather than genuinely repent after committing sins and perpetuating evil, Nee and Lee would instead double-down, dig in further, and tighten the controls even more, driving out and slashing/burning anyone with a conscience who got in their path. This behavior does indeed annul the message, disqualify them from leadership, and throw the entire concept of the local churches -- founded on the shoulders of two abusive, controlling, unrepentant predators and predator-protecters -- into question.

Trapped