What is God's Economy?

[least]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Great question. It is the difference between Jesus being the Son of God, and you and I being sons of God (if we are believers, that is).

(1) Angels are also called sons of God. Are angels ‘gods without the Godhead’?
Genesis 6: 4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1: 6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 38: 7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(2) Are there bible verses that say directly that, christians being sons of God are gods?

(3)
Psalm 82: 1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (KJV)
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
God stands in the assembly of the Angels and among the Angels he will judge.

*** Here ‘gods’ in Psalm 82, in Aramaic bible in plain English is ‘angels’.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is the difference between God being the Judge, and we being judges.
The difference between Christ our High Priest and King of Kings, and us being priests and kings.

You are just substituting the upper case Judge to God and lower case judges to gods, substituting upper case King to God and lower case kings to gods …. etc., This is a play of the English language. Wonder how you do it in other languages.
You have not answer to ‘how is Godhead separated from God’.
You only make clear the difference between ‘God’ and ‘gods’ using the difference in the capital letter and the small letter of the words: Judge and judges, King and kings, Priest and priests.
You do not even attempt something like ‘we are judges but without the Judgehead’.
And how do you separate Judgehead from judges? How do you separate Godhead from god?
You proclaim you are gods without the Godhead. What gods are you?
In the bible there are: ‘god of this world’ or ‘god of this age’, ‘their god is their belly’, ‘all the gods of Egypt’, ‘do not mention names of other gods’, ‘they sacrifice to gods they have never known’, ‘to new gods that have come recently’, ‘so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” ….

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

That’s exactly what it is: a kingdom and priests to serve our God.
You would substitute the verse to read ‘You have made them to be a godsdom and gods to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth’?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood..."

That’s exactly what it is: a chosen people, a royal priesthood.
You would substitute the verse to read ‘But you are a chosen godrace, a royal godshood …’?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Luke 19:17 "'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

That’s exactly what it is: my good servant!
You would change ‘my good servant’ to ‘God’s good god’?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is really a process over time, described in Romans 8:29:
Romans 8:29 says For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
It will not be completed until we receive immortal (and godly) bodies like Christ:

(1) How does the above answer: How is Godhead separated from God? How do you know you are a god (God) without a godhead (Godhead)?

(2) Romans 8: 28- 30 (recovery version bible)
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;
And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*** Called, justified, glorified. *** That’s it.
You want to force ‘god without godhead’ into these bible verses?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Following the above 2 verses are verses 55, 56, 57 as below:
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the claw.
But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

When we become immortal, we become "gods", essentially. Think of it, do mere mortals live forever? No. Do mere mortals rule the earth? No. Do mere mortals judge even the angels? No.

(1) You would the verses following 54 to read: When we become immortal, we become “gods” essentially. Mere mortals cannot live forever, cannot rule the earth and cannot judge even the angels. (huh?)

(2) Recovery version I Corinthians 15: 58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

You would substitute ‘judging’ in place of ‘labor’ in the work of the Lord?
Why? Because the result of becoming gods is to ‘judge’? Even judge angels? You seem to use ‘even judge angels’ as a motivation (bait) to ‘become gods’.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now consider, that God is the only Judge:
James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
Yet later, as "gods", God will give us the privileged to judge the world and angels:

James 4: 11 says: Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James said brothers and sisters slandering one another or judges them speaks against the law and judges the law. Yet, there is only one Lawgiver and Judge.
God is the only judge of the law, for God is the Lawgiver. Judging according to the law is keeping the law.
* Yet later, as ‘gods’ …
(1)You being now ‘god’ as you proclaim ‘I am god’, quote the bible that who are you to judge your neighbor; yet you judge anyway (not waiting till ‘yet later, as gods’). Point at a (near or distant) neighbour and say ‘the church in New York does not believe in Christ’.
(2) You are motivated by ‘the privilege’ to judge? You said, as ‘gods’, God will give us the privileged to judge the world and angels:
gods are privileged to judge? That's why you have to be gods? for the privilege

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

(1) You would substitute ‘Lord’s people’ with ‘gods’?
The Lord’s people will judge the world, not ‘later gods will judge the world’.

(2) Recovery version I Cor 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy of the smallest judgements?

You would substitute ‘the saints’ to ‘gods’? Revise the Recovery version?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Judging is a role really reserved for God Almighty alone, especially for His angels.

You first quote the bible (God’s word) to say: we will judge angels
then you say (your own word): judging is a role really reserved for God Almighty alone, especially for His angels.
It is God’s words vs your words, or your words vs God’s word?
Is there ‘really’ something you know better about the Almighty God that He himself ‘really’ does not know about?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Humans now are lower than angels but will be crowned, or immortalized later:

Humans? Who are humans here? All human beings?
Humans now are lower than angels but will be crowned, meaning all human beings will be crowned?
will be crowned, or immortalized later: crowned and immortalized meant the same?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hebrews 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

Above verse you quoted from the NIV bible, it says: You made ‘them’ …
There are also other versions that used ‘them’ … in this verse.
Below kjv and recovery version used ‘him’ in place of ‘them’.
(KJV) Hebrews 2:7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(Recovery version) Hebrews 2:7
You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands;

The Recovery version grouped Hebrews 2: 5-18 under a topic titled:
As the Son of Man -- As Man
That means the Recovery version interprets the ‘him’ in Heb 2:7 as the Son of Man – As Man.

You quoted Heb 2:7 that used ‘them’ in place of ‘him’, because you need to substitute this word to ‘gods’ to illustrate your deduction of ‘become gods’?

Have you betrayed your own version of the bible? or you read the NIV and not the recovery version? hahaha, that’s funny lol … very funny

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yet it says right there in 1 Cor 6:3 we will judge angels. Therefore we have become like "gods".

The bible verse says: we will judge angels …
You then THEREFORE it: we have become like “gods”.
The bible does not say: we will judge angels, therefore we have become like “gods”.
It is your THEREFORE, your own words, not God’s word.
And what is this: become ‘like’ gods?
Are you ‘gods’ as you proclaim? or are you ‘become gods’ as you also say? or are you become ‘like’ gods as you wrote above?
Do you ‘really’ know what you say?
And what happens to the ‘not the Godhead’ part? Question still not answered. Do you ‘really’ know how you are god without Godhead?

[aron]

Originally Posted by least

You proclaim you are gods without the Godhead. What gods are you?

In the bible there are: ‘god of this world’ or ‘god of this age’, ‘their god is their belly’, ‘all the gods of Egypt’, ‘do not mention names of other gods’, ‘they sacrifice to gods they have never known’, ‘to new gods that have come recently’, ‘so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” ….

This is what I was touching on elsewhere. Israel has One True God, not many 'gods'. So the term 'gods' in plural is typically couched in dismissive terms.

"You are 'gods' . . . but you will die like men. You will fall like the princes." You are 'gods' BUT you are not God. What kind of 'gods' die like men? And fall like the princes? What is our goal, here? As least put it, What gods are you?

To discriminate god without the Godhead is an exercise in vanity, against monotheism. "Hear, O Israel, there is One God". . . there are angels that are not God, men that are not God, judges and princes that are not God, fruit trees and steamships that are not God. So to say that we are 'gods' or 'god' but not God is essentially meaningless. A god that is not God, in monotheism, is what? It was merely an excuse to give a conference (or two), print up some books, and keep people distracted for a bit longer.

Lee never really had a master plan, that I can see, except how to survive for another day. Stay on the lc throne for one more day.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by least

(1) Angels are also called sons of God. Are angels ‘gods without the Godhead’?
Genesis 6: 4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1: 6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 38: 7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(2) Are there bible verses that say directly that, christians being sons of God are gods?

(3)
Psalm 82: 1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (KJV)
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
God stands in the assembly of the Angels and among the Angels he will judge.

*** Here ‘gods’ in Psalm 82, in Aramaic bible in plain English is ‘angels’.

Yes angels are called sons of God, but are they born again? Were they created in God's image? No, so they are not real sons of God like us.

Nice try but 'angels' can mean human messengers. I have consulted bible commentaries about this and they stand maintain the view they are human judges and rulers, not angels.

We can see from verse 6 that it refers to humans and not angels.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nice try but 'angels' can mean human messengers.

Which verse or chapter makes angels (at least in that instance) out as mere humans? I'd like to look this up.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

Which verse or chapter makes angels (at least in that instance) out as mere humans? I'd like to look this up.

"Least" has tried to argue that Psalm 82:1 refers to angels and not humans by quoting the Aramaic version (the Syrian or Syriac translated version of the Bible). That is,they are using a version which was translated from Hebrew to Syrian, and then from Syrian to English to try and prove their point. Why not use the Bible versions that go straight from Hebrew to English? Psalm 82:6 makes the context clear, that it refers to humans, not angels. So the Aramaic version is incorrect.

In Pslam 82:1:

It says angels only in one version:
http://biblehub.com/psalms/82-1.htm

The word elohim can mean humans:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm

The bible commentaries all say that these 'gods' or 'angels' are people:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/82-1.htm

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges addresses the difference between the Aramaic version and the others, on the matter of whether it refers to actual angels or people. You will note the part I highlighted in bold below which shows that interpreting it to mean angels is incorrect:

he judgeth &c.] In the midst of gods (Elôhîm) will he judge. According to the view adopted above, the judges and authorities of Israel are meant by gods. It might indeed be supposed that the poet intended to represent God as holding His court surrounded by angels, like an earthly king in the midst of his courtiers (cp. 1 Kings 22:19; Job 1:2); and so probably the Syriac translator understood the verse: “God standeth in the assembly of the angels, and in the midst of the angels will He judge.” But Elôhîm can hardly have a different meaning from that which it has in Psalm 82:6, where it clearly refers to the judges who are put on their trial; and the address in Psalm 82:2 would be unintelligible if the persons addressed had not already been mentioned.


About the word 'angel' in general:

The word angel comes from the Greek angelos meaning messenger. the word itself does not indicate whether they are supernatural beings or humans. Translators of the bible always consider the context.
Revelation 1:20 is an example of 'angels' meaning church leaders.

[aron]

But behind every judge and prince is an angel, a throne, authority, a power. It has double meaning - both angel and human. Both either are allied against God, or for God. The unjust princes were usurped by evil spirits, and both the princes and spirits (powers, authorities) were destroyed. See Genesis 6, Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2, etc. It has a widespread use in scripture.

See also, with Peter at the gate, "It is his angel", and "Receive the saints for you will entertain angels unawares" and "A man, that is an angel" in Rev 21.

The Angel in Revelation 1:20 has also been called the Spirit. "Blessed are those who hear what the Spirit (Angel) is speaking to the churches". Jesus speaks to the Angel of the church, which is a ministering spirit, which then speaks to the church. The angel is a messenger. That's why there are seven churches, seven angels who stand before the throne, and seven spirits (lamps of fire) burning before the throne.

[Cal]

aron,

I always get confused by the messenger angel idea. When does God use an angel to talk to us and when does he just talk to us directly, and why would he need both?

Signed,
Confused

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

aron,

I always get confused by the messenger angel idea. When does God use an angel to talk to us and when does he just talk to us directly, and why would he need both?

Signed,
Confused

"I am Gabriel, I stand before God". Angels are messengers. In the text it often is confusing, to us, because the writers often don't clearly delineate as our theological notions would prefer. We like clear-cut, but in the text we see an angel send Philip to the South Road, then the Spirit (ministering spirit?) sends Philip up to a chariot with an Ethiopian eunuch.

The expelled Hagar tells the angel, "Now God has seen His servant's distress", but she isn't speaking to God directly, but to God through the mediatory angel (so I surmise). So John's "seven eyes of God" may be angels. Possibly. God sees the servant Hagar through the servant angel.

And the NT record repeatedly tells us that the law was given through the intermediary agency of angels, but the OT record seems not to indicate this at all.

Anyway, I don't have a clear answer. But to summarily say that the "messenger" of Revelation 1:20 is a man, not an angel, seems a bit presumptuous, and overly hopeful. Our theology may prefer it, because we like our theology neat.

The best I can do is point to the typical narrative structure of the parable in the NT gospel record. A man, a rich man, or a king, had servants, and He (God is the understood allusion) gave them instructions and sent them off. A rich man doesn't do everything for himself, but has agents to do his bidding. God, of course, is very rich, and has tens of thousands, and thousands of thousands of servants, both men, angels, and whatnot (living creatures? Elders?) who all do His will. But the key, here, is not "whether angels or men" but whether clarity or not. Only transparent servants qualify. If we muddy up God's will with our own, we fail. Transparency is key. The eyes of the Lamb are always clear. Look at how the wheel of Ezekiel 1 and the four living creatures in Revelation 4 are full of eyes.

My point is that these messengers tell us about God, and tell God about us. They go back and forth. "Angels ascending and descending."

I am sure I didn't help your confusion and for that I apologize. I'm not sure that the biblical text gives the clarity we'd prefer. But in short I'd say that God, being holy, prefers to use intermediaries. Otherwise we'd get vaporized like smoke.