What is God's Economy?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee has said very clearly that the "expression of Christ is the Body". How do you build up the Body?

We also have a good hymnal and a number of good books, such as Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, the Life-study Messages, The Experience of Life, The Economy of God, and The All-Inclusive Christ. We may bring any of these books to the meeting, and when we open them, something marvelous will be there. We do not necessarily need to speak starting from the first section of a chapter, but we can use any page. We may “play ball” from any section. In a meeting you may say, “Let us read a section of Life Lessons concerning the two aspects of the Spirit.” Or you may say, “Let us speak the nine titles of the Spirit as listed in this section.” (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 10, Sect 4)

All of us can speak. We have the Bible, a hymnal, the Life-study Messages, and other spiritual publications to speak. If we spoke a Life-study Message together, this would make the best message full of the divine riches and the refreshing utterances. (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 4, Sect 5)

We can speak from any of the messages, and even speaking the message has some value. But if you read the whole book from the beginning, it is clear that Lee wants us to know the Word of God and pray.

chapter 1:
The word is the holy word revealed in the Scriptures, either the constant Word or the instant word. If we are going to be the speaking ones in our meetings, we must let the word of Christ dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16). The riches of Christ are in His word. The word of the Lord must have adequate room within us that it may operate and minister these riches into our being. Then our speaking of the word in the meetings will be an exhibition of the riches of Christ.


So your argument that "all you have to do is quote Lee" is not true at all. Quoting Lee has some value but everyone is encouraged to speak from the Word in their heart. Many times myself and others in a meeting have not quoted Lee at all in our messages.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We can speak from any of the messages, and even speaking the message has some value. But if you read the whole book from the beginning, it is clear that Lee wants us to know the Word of God and pray.

chapter 1:
The word is the holy word revealed in the Scriptures, either the constant Word or the instant word. If we are going to be the speaking ones in our meetings, we must let the word of Christ dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16). The riches of Christ are in His word. The word of the Lord must have adequate room within us that it may operate and minister these riches into our being. Then our speaking of the word in the meetings will be an exhibition of the riches of Christ.


So your argument that "all you have to do is quote Lee" is not true at all. Quoting Lee has some value but everyone is encouraged to speak from the Word in their heart. Many times myself and others in a meeting have not quoted Lee at all in our messages.

Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee.

In one place he says we may bring any one of his books to a meeting, open it and speak from it. In another place he says:

It is shameful to collect materials from others' books and then pass them on to the children of God. What we pass on to the children of God must be something we have seen. (Witness Lee, The Visions of Ezekiel, chapter 1, section 4)

In one place Lee warns that using the term "deification" can be interpreted as "pagan, idolatrous, and heretical" and therefore the Orthodox Christians who used this term were wrong. In another place he tells us it is OK for him to use this term because the Orthodox Christians used it years ago.

In one place Lee tells us the US is "the great eagle" the place where the believers can flee to during the great tribulation. In another he tells us that legalized marriage for gays makes it Sodom and will bring down God's judgement on it.

In one place he teaches very detailed account of how to thoroughly deal with sins. In another place he wants to just "move on" and "forget" the "ancient history" of his sins.

You yourself said it was absolutely not true that Lee taught that quoting Lee in a meeting was the exercise of the spirit, the way to build the body and express Christ. But then when you see that he did teach that it doesn't matter because he also quoted Colossians 3:16. Now the fact that he was doing spiritual gymnastics to equate Colossians 3:16 with quoting his books in the church doesn't bother you at all. Of course not.

You see if Witness Lee doesn't teach "to worship him" then it is OK with you if he teaches that he is being deified. See, he didn't use the expression "worship me". He did say that we could worship God by buying his books and speaking them during worship services, but he never said to "worship him". He did say that all other Christian teachers lacked his special vision, that he alone was teaching the up to date vision, and that his close relationship to Watchman Nee made him "the minister of the Age". If you read these messages you will see that he actually warns that we should not quote anyone else during the meeting. (I provide a quote from these messages below) But, quoting him is a spiritual exercise. But that doesn't mean he was teaching another Jesus. Sure, he used the fact that Moses was a type of Jesus to support his MOTA teaching, basically saying that Moses was a type of Watchman Nee and by extension himself.

No I get what you are saying. I repudiate it. I reject it. But you have made yourself very clear. 9 people on the Supreme court have decided that 350 million people in the US live in Sodom. In Abraham's time God couldn't find 10 righteous people in Sodom so He judged it, today you find 9 unrighteous people in the US so you judge it. Who made you God? Oh yeah, right, it was Witness Lee.

We should avoid quoting things from books without spiritual weight. Many times people like to quote from others’ books in their speaking because they think that these quotations can strengthen or confirm their points. They also may quote others to strengthen or confirm that they are learned and knowledgeable. We do not need to make such a show of our knowledge of others’ books. To refer to others’ books is a risk. We may bring in things that are not according to the truth or that are not constructive. Our speaking with wrong quotations from others’ books may distract others and destroy our intention to build up the church. To bring in quotations from other books may even create dissension, so we have to be careful when we quote others’ writings. (Witness Lee, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, chapter 10, section 3)

[Ohio]

"Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee."
-- How true!

In one place Lee encourages different brothers around the Recovery to write and publish the word of God, ministering all the riches. In another place he tells us that we need a One Publication Policy throughout all the Local Churches and only LSM can publish.

Thus the troublesome GLA and Brazil were conveniently eliminated from "God's people."

Was Lee god, or maybe just a fickle dictator?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee.

In one place he says we may bring any one of his books to a meeting, open it and speak from it. In another place he says:

It is shameful to collect materials from others' books and then pass them on to the children of God. What we pass on to the children of God must be something we have seen. (Witness Lee, The Visions of Ezekiel, chapter 1, section 4)

In one place Lee warns that using the term "deification" can be interpreted as "pagan, idolatrous, and heretical" and therefore the Orthodox Christians who used this term were wrong. In another place he tells us it is OK for him to use this term because the Orthodox Christians used it years ago.

In one place Lee tells us the US is "the great eagle" the place where the believers can flee to during the great tribulation. In another he tells us that legalized marriage for gays makes it Sodom and will bring down God's judgement on it.

In one place he teaches very detailed account of how to thoroughly deal with sins. In another place he wants to just "move on" and "forget" the "ancient history" of his sins.

You yourself said it was absolutely not true that Lee taught that quoting Lee in a meeting was the exercise of the spirit, the way to build the body and express Christ. But then when you see that he did teach that it doesn't matter because he also quoted Colossians 3:16. Now the fact that he was doing spiritual gymnastics to equate Colossians 3:16 with quoting his books in the church doesn't bother you at all. Of course not.

You see if Witness Lee doesn't teach "to worship him" then it is OK with you if he teaches that he is being deified. See, he didn't use the expression "worship me". He did say that we could worship God by buying his books and speaking them during worship services, but he never said to "worship him". He did say that all other Christian teachers lacked his special vision, that he alone was teaching the up to date vision, and that his close relationship to Watchman Nee made him "the minister of the Age". If you read these messages you will see that he actually warns that we should not quote anyone else during the meeting. (I provide a quote from these messages below) But, quoting him is a spiritual exercise. But that doesn't mean he was teaching another Jesus. Sure, he used the fact that Moses was a type of Jesus to support his MOTA teaching, basically saying that Moses was a type of Watchman Nee and by extension himself.

No I get what you are saying. I repudiate it. I reject it. But you have made yourself very clear. 9 people on the Supreme court have decided that 350 million people in the US live in Sodom. In Abraham's time God couldn't find 10 righteous people in Sodom so He judged it, today you find 9 unrighteous people in the US so you judge it. Who made you God? Oh yeah, right, it was Witness Lee.

We should avoid quoting things from books without spiritual weight. Many times people like to quote from others’ books in their speaking because they think that these quotations can strengthen or confirm their points. They also may quote others to strengthen or confirm that they are learned and knowledgeable. We do not need to make such a show of our knowledge of others’ books. To refer to others’ books is a risk. We may bring in things that are not according to the truth or that are not constructive. Our speaking with wrong quotations from others’ books may distract others and destroy our intention to build up the church. To bring in quotations from other books may even create dissension, so we have to be careful when we quote others’ writings. (Witness Lee, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, chapter 10, section 3)

ZNPaaneah,

on the topic of gay marriage, your argument about the 9 or 10 doesn't stick, because I have already quoted statistics which show the majority of the American population supports it. It is on this basis that America is Sodom, and not merely because of the 9 or 10 law makers or judges.

Perhaps I can flip this around the other way. If America is not Sodom, then what city or country in the bible is best used as a metaphor to describe America today? Is it Jerusalem? It could possible be Tyre, the center of commercialism.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah,

on the topic of gay marriage, your argument about the 9 or 10 doesn't stick, because I have already quoted statistics which show the majority of the American population supports it. It is on this basis that America is Sodom, and not merely because of the 9 or 10 law makers or judges.

Perhaps I can flip this around the other way. If America is not Sodom, then what city or country in the bible is best used as a metaphor to describe America today? Is it Jerusalem? It could possible be Tyre, the center of commercialism.

Of course the argument still sticks. If you want to use polls on who supports and who doesn't support, then you can clearly find 10 righteous people in the US and in most cities.

Sodom was a city. You could liken Las Vegas to it. But putting the entire US as an analogy to it is a misuse of the metaphor. Read the story again. God didn't judge the city because someone was a fornicator or an adulterer. He judged the city because He couldn't find 10 righteous people. The ones He did find (Lot and his family) He pulled out from the fire, but even those (Lot's wife, etc) were severely damaged.

No one is arguing that the world, including the US is not sinful. We are well aware that it is.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Of course the argument still sticks. If you want to use polls on who supports and who doesn't support, then you can clearly find 10 righteous people in the US and in most cities.

Sodom was a city. You could liken Las Vegas to it. But putting the entire US as an analogy to it is a misuse of the metaphor. Read the story again. God didn't judge the city because someone was a fornicator or an adulterer. He judged the city because He couldn't find 10 righteous people. The ones He did find (Lot and his family) He pulled out from the fire, but even those (Lot's wife, etc) were severely damaged.

No one is arguing that the world, including the US is not sinful. We are well aware that it is.

ZNPaaneah,
that's a strange interpretation you have. God judged the city because of its rampant immorality. Verse 20 says "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;"

God said he wouldn't destroy it if there were more than 10 righteous people there.

For you to say that God judged it because he couldn't find 10 righteous people and it wasnt because of their fornication or adultery is plain wrong.

Sodom was a city - of course. Now should that city be a whole nation, makes it less of a Sodom? Of course not - it makes it worse!

We have to admit that America, as Sodom, has never really produced anything of much spiritual value itself. Everything spiritual that America has, has come from other countries first. The only denominations that American can truly claim to be its own is Mormonism, Jehovah Witness plus many other aberrant. But what America does well is promote a free and tolerant society for people to feel safe, which is why people like to come there. Unfortunately it goes to the extreme and accommodates anything and everyone, hence, gay marriage etc etc. So it plays an important role in the Lord's Recovery and home to many Christians. But that doesn't mean it can escape God's judgement or be treated different to any other country.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah,
that's a strange interpretation you have. God judged the city because of its rampant immorality. Verse 20 says "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;"

God said he wouldn't destroy it if there were more than 10 righteous people there.

For you to say that God judged it because he couldn't find 10 righteous people and it wasnt because of their fornication or adultery is plain wrong.

Sodom was a city - of course. Now should that city be a whole nation, makes it less of a Sodom? Of course not - it makes it worse!

We have to admit that America, as Sodom, has never really produced anything of much spiritual value itself. Everything spiritual that America has, has come from other countries first. The only denominations that American can truly claim to be its own is Mormonism, Jehovah Witness plus many other aberrant. But what America does well is promote a free and tolerant society for people to feel safe, which is why people like to come there. Unfortunately it goes to the extreme and accommodates anything and everyone, hence, gay marriage etc etc. So it plays an important role in the Lord's Recovery and home to many Christians. But that doesn't mean it can escape God's judgement or be treated different to any other country.

I have to admit that I have been commissioned to preach the gospel.

The good news is that there is salvation from God's judgement to those who receive Jesus Christ.

I have to admit that "rampant fornication" was every bit as bad, if not worse in Taiwan when I went there for the FTTT.

I have to admit that the sins I read about in the Middle East and Afghanistan are, to my mind more grievous.

I have admitted that God's judgement is on the world, I did that when I was baptized.

I do not have to admit that the US has not produced anything of spiritual value, I can leave that judgement to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not have to admit that everything spiritual has come from other countries. Again, I am not the judge, I will leave matters of judgement to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have to admit that I have been commissioned to preach the gospel.

The good news is that there is salvation from God's judgement to those who receive Jesus Christ.

I have to admit that "rampant fornication" was every bit as bad, if not worse in Taiwan when I went there for the FTTT.

I have to admit that the sins I read about in the Middle East and Afghanistan are, to my mind more grievous.

I have admitted that God's judgement is on the world, I did that when I was baptized.

I do not have to admit that the US has not produced anything of spiritual value, I can leave that judgement to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not have to admit that everything spiritual has come from other countries. Again, I am not the judge, I will leave matters of judgement to the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not a matter of judgement ZNPaaneah it is just a matter of fact- Christianity came to America from Europe and so did the Lord's Recovery. Abraham, signifying a spiritual person, came to Sodom from outside of Sodom.
You are justifying and rationalizing the sins of America by pointing to the sins of other countries. Well actually many countries are now Sodom and the whole world may degrade to such before Christ comes back.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We have to admit that America, as Sodom, has never really produced anything of much spiritual value itself. Everything spiritual that America has, has come from other countries first. The only denominations that American can truly claim to be its own is Mormonism, Jehovah Witness plus many other aberrant.

We have to admit? Sounds like Lee speaking to a captive audience where no one is allowed to respond.

America, as Sodom, has never really produced anything of much spiritual value itself? Are you serious? Are you referring to the American government? Are you referring to all Christians living in America? Are you including Lee, LSM, and the LC's? How about your nation? What spiritual value can you boast in, besides pride?

Everything spiritual that America has, has come from other countries first?According to your logic, a nation of immigrants then must be all spiritually dead. Using your own words then, We have to admit "that every perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights." So, according to your logic, if China or England or Sudan chases Christians from their borders sometime in the last 300 years, then we as a nation owe them our spiritual heritage?

The only denominations that American can truly claim to be its own is Mormonism, Jehovah Witness plus many other aberrant? I know many precious believers at the local Church of Christ, so they must be "aberrant?" Christian Missionary Alliance?

Your narrow-minded and bigoted disgust for all things "American" is continually in plain view, yet you hide behind your keyboard in some secret location. Who made you the faceless judge of all things Christian?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have to admit? Sounds like Lee speaking to a captive audience where no one is allowed to respond.

America, as Sodom, has never really produced anything of much spiritual value itself? Are you serious? Are you referring to the American government? Are you referring to all Christians living in America? Are you including Lee, LSM, and the LC's? How about your nation? What spiritual value can you boast in, besides pride?

Everything spiritual that America has, has come from other countries first?According to your logic, a nation of immigrants then must be all spiritually dead. Using your own words then, We have to admit "that every perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights." So, according to your logic, if China or England or Sudan chases Christians from their borders sometime in the last 300 years, then we as a nation owe them our spiritual heritage?

The only denominations that American can truly claim to be its own is Mormonism, Jehovah Witness plus many other aberrant? I know many precious believers at the local Church of Christ, so they must be "aberrant?" Christian Missionary Alliance?

Your narrow-minded and bigoted disgust for all things "American" is continually in plain view, yet you hide behind your keyboard in some secret location. Who made you the faceless judge of all things Christian?

Ohio,
The fact that you all flocked to the teaching of a man from China (Witness Lee) rather than a home grown American preacher, proves my point. I am not trying to pick on America, but the topic is, Witness Lee saying America is Sodom. This is not to the exclusion of many other countries that are also Sodom. Witness Lee also mentioned Sweden and others. In fact the whole world will likely become Sodom before Christ returns.