What is God's Economy?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You make it sound like they have a few Witness Lee books in their library but otherwise you would have no idea that they were following Lee.

No one on this forum has taken issue with you for having a Witness Lee book.

No, the issue is that if you accept Witness Lee's teaching it includes the doctrine that all other Christians are wrong in their walk. How does one "follow" Witness Lee without judging all other Christians as being "off the mark of God's economy"?

They are off the mark, I have the bible and experience to tell me that (don't need Lee to know that).

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They are off the mark, I have the bible and experience to tell me that (don't need Lee to know that).

That is a pretty crazy statement. Does your conscience not bother you about holding such an arrogant thought?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

That is a pretty crazy statement. Does your conscience not bother you about holding such an arrogant thought?

My conscience tells me right from wrong, that's what the conscience is for.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

That is a pretty crazy statement. Does your conscience not bother you about holding such an arrogant thought?

Pride within is often outside of the reach of our conscience.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They are off the mark, I have the bible and experience to tell me that (don't need Lee to know that).

But you don't have the Bible. Every time we have asked anyone to show how "God's economy" makes anyone wrong, or verses mean different things, they always say it does but cannot utter a single verse to establish that it actually does.

It would be interesting for someone to try. In my 11 years on these forums, I have only heard crickets chirping. It is always going to come soon and never does.

[Evangelical]

Because God's economy is the whole Bible. It is God's will, God's plan, there is no single verse which can describe that, it requires the whole Bible.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because God's economy is the whole Bible. It is God's will, God's plan, there is no single verse which can describe that, it requires the whole Bible.

Therefore, as a singular term, it is of no particular meaning. If it means everything, then it means nothing in particular.

I know that sounds harsh, but to the extent that you want it to mean specific things within the whole of the Bible, it then returns to agreements or disagreements as to what particular parts of the Bible means.

But as a yardstick for things within the scripture, it is hard to consider that God's economy would define certain parts of the "all scripture" that is "God-breathed" to be less than profitable for teaching. Parts such as much of James, or significant parts of the Psalms. Since it is the invocation of "God's economy" as a reason to dismiss these as correctly meaning for our living what they say, then there is a problem with the idea that God's economy is the whole Bible if it is to be used as a tool to dismiss part of itself.

The whole idea is circular and ridiculous.

So you actually use the term "God's economy" in all sorts of places to be the reason that your understanding of the scripture there means what you want it to mean. But that starts with a presumption that you (or your group) has insight into what is God's economy that others do not, therefore you wield the term "God's economy" as the end-all of any discussion. You say that God's economy means what you want it to mean, therefore it cannot mean what anyone else would say that is contrary to you.

Therefore, as far as the LCM is concerned, "God's economy" is a term of no meaning outside of a hollow declaration that their interpretation of scripture is right and everyone else's is wrong.

Why not just ignore the overlay terminology and just deal with the passages as they are? Stop treating "God's economy" as if it is the one ring that rules them all. As if it is a talisman that can make words mean whatever the holder wants them to mean regardless of the stretch relative from the bare text.

[Evangelical]

The term Christ means something specific and also something very general. John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.". It would be silly to believe only in the person of Jesus walked 2000 years ago, without also considering the Christ who made everything and who is the reason for everything existing.

God's economy then is also something specific or something very general. God's economy is the plan of the One who made everything and for whom everything exists.

When you say God's economy is ridiculous you are saying God's salvation is ridiculous (because that is what it means). Would you say "Stop treating "God's salvation" as if it is the one ring that rules them all." ? Chance are you are already "ringing" everything in life according to God's salvation, therefore you are already practicing God's economy to an extent. God's salvation would be the reason for everything you do, think and say (or should be). Therefore it is a general concept applying to all mankind, and it is also a specific concept applying to your decision about what you should do on a daily basis.

God's economy as used in 1 Timothy 1:4, means God's plan of (complete) salvation. It includes predestination, justification, sanctification, transformation, glorification.

Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. "

So far I have required two bible verses to establish that.

On the other hand, to explain God's plan of salvation completely we need the whole Bible. For example if we removed the book of Genesis or the book of Revelation, we could not explain God's plan of salvation in a complete way. I could not talk about man's need of a Savior, nor the end goal of man to dwell with God in the New Jerusalem.

On the other hand, to explain God's plan of salvation to an individual sinner, we could reference John 3:16. So God's plan of salvation can be explained in a specific but limited way or in a comprehensive way.

1 Timothy 1:4 tells us not to occupy ourselves with things contrary to God's plan of salvation, or God's economy.

Now can you explain how God dispensing Himself into man (aka giving and growing the Spirit in man) is not part of God's plan of salvation? We cannot say a person can be saved without the Spirit, nor can we say that if a person has the Spirit they are not saved:
Romans 8:9 " And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.".

If I say God's economy is God dispensing himself into man. I am correct. It is part of God's plan of salvation.
If I say God's economy is Christ dying on the cross for our sins, I am correct. It is part of God's plan of salvation.
If I say God's economy is Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge and falling, I am correct. It is also part of God's plan of salvation.

Essentially I could take any verse from the Bible where it relates to salvation, and say it is God's economy, because the whole Bible relates to salvation in one way or another. We could say that the whole bible is about God's plan of salvation.

When a person disagrees with God's economy, they are disagreeing with the idea that everything in the Bible is about God's plan of salvation. Normally they do so because they do not believe in God's plan of salvation, they are atheists or agnostics, or nominal Christians who read the bible as a history book but do not believe in salvation.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The term Christ means something specific and also something very general.

Sort of reminds me when everyone went "oooohhhh, aaaaahhhh!!!" when someone once said " I was impressed, struck, and touched" followed by nothing that specifically make those three somewhat different effects meaningful.

To refer to Christ as a term that is specific and general is just silly. While "Christ" is more than a title, it is all specific to the One that is call Christ.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God's economy then is also something specific or something very general. God's economy is the plan of the One who made everything and for whom everything exists.

When you say God's economy is ridiculous you are saying God's salvation is ridiculous (because that is what it means).

It is clear that you do not have much understanding, or intend to misrepresent and thereby avoid actually defending your interpretations of things.

And if all it means it God's salvation, then it cannot be trotted-out to dismiss the writings of James, or of so much of the Psalms. Or to dismiss the clear meaning in the beginning of Colossians and replace it with something that is not there.

And on and on.

"God's salvation" does not mean that whatever it was that Lee had such disdain for in James is actually false and therefore only useful to learn what not to do. While I do not subscribe to the universal application of the warning in Revelation concerning taking anything from the "book of this prophecy," those that do should be screaming a Lee.

What you want to recast as saying "God's economy is ridiculous" was to say that the use of the very broad term "God's economy" is meaningless in the analysis of other things because of its breadth of what it means. It has nothing in it that makes any point.

Instead, you need to find the actual passages that speak in your favor, or against what I am saying. Providing the name of an overlay is not meaningful in the discussion because it provides no basis for consideration. The hollow claim that "God's economy" covers everything does not mean that your understanding of what is in it that speaks to any particular issue is the correct understanding. You have to actually deal with the specific scripture that speaks to it. Not cast the spell of "God's economy" over it.

I have great respect for the whole of God's plan, which is much more than just salvation. But the thing that you have made out of it is not meaningful. God's economy is a legitimate overlay on all that God is and does. But to deal with any issue, you need to have the details of that for the task. Not the overlay. As simply an overlay, it is virtually useless.

Just saying "God's economy" does not provide any basis to accept your version of anything. It just suggests that you do not have the knowledge to actually deal with the issues begin discussed and instead resort to speaking fancy words to cover for that lack.

[Evangelical]

The difference between you and I is that I use Bible verses to support God's economy. It takes only a few minutes to read and understand what God's economy is all about. You say God's plan is more than just salvation but I doubt you know what God's plan actually is. What more is there besides salvation? What more should do you think Christ should have done than die on the cross?