What is God's Economy?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee claimed that Paul's teachings in Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were "the heart of the divine revelation".

There was a participant several years back who drove us crazy with some of his dogmatic views on things. But one of his dogmas, while overdone, was to assert that the core of the NT is the gospels. In this one item he was (and probably still is) right.

During the recent era of "emerging" and "emergent" church thinking, there was a general disdain for Paul because they see in the bulk of Christianity a tendency to use Paul as the gospel and almost dismiss the actual gospels. Turns out that they didn't really dislike Paul, but rather the inverted way of viewing the NT. So many start with Paul and try to shoehorn the gospels to fit what they think they are getting out of Paul. And they mostly ignore the parts of the gospels that they cant fit into their "Paul" narrative.

But the real way to look at the NT should be similar to what the Jews say about the OT. They essentially say that there is the Law and the Prophets, and the rest is commentary. Layered over the NT, that would be "The gospels are the Gospel. The rest is commentary."

Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels. It is that kind of focus that has brought me to realize that Paul's letters are not about uber-spiritual stuff with a side helping of discipline about their issues. Instead, virtually the whole of each letter is about correcting the totality of the lives of the believers and the rest is very sound spiritual facts that are in their toolbelts for the purpose of succeeding in their daily lives in all aspects. For Paul, there is no spiritual-secular divide. Driving in a manner displaying the image of God is as spiritual as praying — or any other item we think of as "spiritual" when we are considering activities in the totality of our lives. There is no secular living unless we are failing to set our minds on the Spirit and therefore failing to fulfil the righteous requirement of the law.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels.

Great point! I would add that if you consider the epistles of Paul as the "higher gospel" and the 4 canonical gospels as a "lower gospel", then you are reading both Paul and the gospels wrong. -
I should hasten to add that the term "the heart of the divine revelation" is virtually synonymous with the thought of "a higher gospel".
-

[Covert]

I see a lot of good post going on here recently in this thread. I want to expand on the highlighted post done by OBW.

OBW recent post- "Christians engaged in life and Godliness as image-bearers of God is a good description of "God's economy"

The core teaching of the lord’s recovery is to live as Godmen or be like God. Yet if anyone who knows the bible knows and reads it. Can clearly see that the lord’s recovery cuts off a lot of scripture to pertain to not "Gods" image but "their" image of the Christian life. It is just not the lord’s recovery thing, or I should say witness lee since the modern-day lord’s recovery is an offspring of witness lee doctrine.

Witness lee is one of the many people who use the bible to fit their narrative. Putting aside witness lee for a second, let us take another group of believers who believe that Jesus Christ is their savior and only way to salvation. But these group of believers are practicing sexual immorality and think that the sins described in 1 Corinthians 6 are just minor and not significant to the Christian life. They think to themselves this is just a little flaw of mine and it needs no correction because Jesus has my back, and he is savior. These individuals I have meet lots of time in my life, have their narrative of the bible that does not have an emphasis on correcting sexual immorality and believe the "central line" of the bible does not have an emphasis or include abstaining from sexual immorality. For these people, the commandment of God regarding sex between a married man and woman is of no relevance.

Let us to back to witness lee now. Witness Lee and his narrative of the Christian life/bible, de-emphasizes and contests the commandment of God regarding caring for your fellow man/neighbor. He claims that the central line of "Gods Economy" does include things such as good works. Yet, there is no scripture to be found that will contradict the act of doing good works. Jesus Christ and the teachings of his apostles reaffirm the act of good works in the Christian faith. It is not a necessity for salvation but the fruits of the Christian faith in practice. Just like those group of believers who in their narrative and agenda of the bible does not emphasize or value abstaining sexual immorality, there is also witness lee, who has his agenda/narrative of the bible does not value good works.

The local churches like to say that they practice the "central line of Paul’s Ministry". As if there are only 14 books in the bible/new testament? Where do you even get the idea that the practice of the Christian life is restricted only to Paul's Epistles? Well as I said the local churches in modern day are witness lee offspring. So, the real question why did Witness Lee personally try so hard to condemn good works to the extent of tarnishing much scripture in the bible to fit his agenda/narrative? Honestly, I am sure I can answer this question in full as I am not witness lee himself but from various testimony of local church history, I can make my guess and probably will make a post about it one day.

Regardless, to the coworkers, dcp, local church lurkers. There is no such thing as the "central line" or "only this part of scripture matters". It is not biblical, and really is just a tool used by certain men who just to propagate their agenda/narrative of the Christian life. The local churches are really no different than those group of believers who try to tarnish the commandment in regard to sexual practices. While one group of believers tarnish the commandments regarding sex and marriage, there are another group of believers who tarnish the commandments of God regarding caring for your neighbor/ good works. Can witness lee/local churches honestly say they are full of Christ and have his life and nature when they perpetuate evil with no rebuke/repentance and say things like “don’t waste your time with the poor/orphans/widows/suffering ones since they don’t have good building material”. Can you honestly say this of God? When the Co-workers sully and demonize John Ingalls year after year and exalt Philip Lee, can you say this is full of Christ? When you make your atonement before the lord will you not bow your head in shame for your slanderous and murderous tongue that slays men of God, sheds innocent blood, and fortifies evil doers and wolves in sheep skin? You think you got away with everything because you can fool everyone in the lord’s recovery, yet you surely cannot fool the lord? You honestly think that in the end when judgement comes, that fooling many men throughout the years will matter and or save you?

I know that the lord’s recovery the famous verse of “love covers all sins”. They abuse and use it perpetuate evil. Yet, while indeed the love of Christ is merciful and boundless, but before forgiveness comes rebuke and repentance and you (LR/LC) have none of that. I mean how is the love of Jesus Christ going to forgive you when you have no rebuke and repentance. You can try to pluck verses that fit your practices, but you know as well as I, that there are many other verses in the bible that exposes your narrative/agenda. Yes, the love of Jesus Christ covers all sins, but you have to rebuke and repent (much scripture detailing this).

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for [a]his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

The verse speaks truth, I could care less that the lord’s recovery has this off the rail interpretation of TOTKOGAE. Again, witness lee your narrative/agenda of the bible is hogwash. I do not care if you do not like practicing the Christian life with any emphasis with the words of “good or bad”. You will appear before the judgement seat of Christ in accordance with your deeds whether “GOOD OR BAD”. You can cry yourself to sleep at night or vent of frustration or whatever, but it is going happen, I have to say to those who perpetuate evil in the local churches and refuse repentance/rebuke along with murdering brothers and sisters with hateful/tarnishing/deceitful words- are you ready for the time of judgement?

So OBW gave a brief explanation of what Gods Economy is in “theory” the local church doctrine. Here is what is in reality/practice- “Gods Economy in the local churches is a false doctrine/agenda of witness lee that describes a practice of the Christian life that tarnishes the commandment of God in relations to good works. While also attempting to practice being amoral, which inevitably leads further downward to being immoral and perpetuating evil doers with no rebuke and or repentance. Just one of the many false teachings from a false prophet who is spoken well by many and propagates his agenda/narrative of the bible. The local churches are one of many strange groups that has this weird and skewed/obscured practice of the Christian life. They usually try to hide and are very open to their beliefs cause of blatant biblical contradictions and rely on deceiving gullible and uninformed new believers to maintain their numbers. That is all it really is.

Gods Economy in practice of the Lords Recovery- A false doctrine that tarnishes the commandment of God in relations to good works/caring for one’s neighbor and perpetuates evil with no rebuke and or repentance.

Some verses to take away
Ecclesiastes
13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.[a] 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with[b] every secret thing, whether good or evil.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God
John 15:10 ESV
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
John 14:15 ESV
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
1 John 5:3 ESV

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
John 14:21 ESV

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
2 John 1:6 ESV / 1

And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
Hebrews 13:16 ESV /

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
1 Timothy 6:17-19 ESV

As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.
Titus 2:14 ESV

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Message to Ephesus, Revelations Chapter 2

2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks [a]among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
2 ‘I know your deeds and your labor and [b]perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have [c]perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.’

These delusional people think they are the church in Philadelphia, when in reality they fall very far from even the church described in Ephesus. Witness Lee doctrine is so flawed, the bible really is the truth and the way. Anyone who reads the bible consistently can see the flaw of witness lee doctrine. He tries to throw all these false man-made teachings/doctrines like “central line of Gods economy”, “don’t keep the law/commandments” and “good works are dead works” but the bible will show you the truth and eviscerate false doctrines that attempt to twist and tarnish it. Read the bible with in spirit and not of witness lee false doctrine corrupting you. Look at all those verses destroy witness lee false doctrine.

Every servant of God whether going from the old testament to Solomon and or the apostles in the New Testament all reaffirm the same thing. They don’t contradict each other trying to put forth their own agenda or narrative on how they think the life of believers should be. They speak the words God has unveiled to man since long ago. For those who try to pit the books of the bible/scripture against each other as if they contend with each other for the truth, are liars. Those who say they know God and say strange things like only they have the “high truth”, and do not keep his commandments and worse, teach against them is a liar and false teacher, this reaffirmed in the warning John gives in his epistle. There is no Paul vs Jesus or Paul epistles are above everyone else.
I will end with this scripture- 2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.

[Covert]

Minor typos from previous post

Original Sentence- He claims that the central line of "Gods Economy" does include things such as good works

Fix-
He claims that the central line of "Gods Economy" does "not" include things such as good works.

(im pretty sure there are some other minor typos, these post take a long time and I hope it does not bother you too much).



Now continuing my thoughts on this thread.

1. Aaron, I got your back brother, you are indeed correct works are part of the christian life. I just had to help my brother out and give economy pitches it cannot hit and strike it out.

2. The idea that God only wants you to seclude yourself, and sit around with a bunch of narcissistic and vainglorious group of delusional individuals 4-6 times a week is a lie. Unless someones bible is corrupted and missing tons of scripture, I don't know how someone comes that conclusion. Well although the recovery bible is not missing pages/scripture, it sure is filled with endless footnotes that takes up more space than scripture. All that corrupted agenda destroying the word of God.

3. Got some threads coming up and look forward for all these wonderful posters contributing

[aron]

Originally Posted by Covert

Aaron, I got your back brother, you are indeed correct works are part of the christian life. I just had to help my brother out and give economy pitches it cannot hit and strike it out.

And to my point of Paul supposedly being apart with "salvation by faith", what "work" does James keep stressing? Circumcision? Dietary laws? Observing feasts, weeks and new moons? No - he says to visit the widows and the orphans in their afflictions. That's pretty much it. James' listed work is to be generous, and share with others. You know, what that guy Jesus taught, "Give to those who can't repay you, and you'll be repaid in the resurrection".

That's James' idea of "works". And per Galatians 2:10 that's what both Paul and James were eager to do. When the gentile churches gave to Paul, he then brought those alms to Jerusalem, to James and the rest, who distributed it to the widows and orphans.

Another term might be used here: 'sign'. A sign that Jesus was the Messiah, was the work which he did in the world, culminating with the sign of resurrection. The gospel record pointing to Jesus' signs, or works, is too numerous to cite. And a sign of discipleship was established early in Acts, with all disciples selling what they had and giving to the aid of the poor, and then Paul carried this messgage out to the world. Be generous to those who lack. That is the sign, that you believe, that you obey the gospel message. Love others, not merely in word but in deed. Again, read 2 Cor 8, 9 - the "lost writings" of Paul.

Another example is Cornelius. The angel said, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial offering to God." Now, was that angel in error? He hadn't read the Epistle to the Romans? Here is a gentile, not a believer [yet], but whose gifts to the poor were praised by God! In fact I'd argue that his position as a God-fearing and right-behaving gentile positioned him to hear the gospel from Peter! So his gifts to the poor were not vain. They were received by God. Of course he needed the gospel - we all do - but to think that "works were vain" is flat nonsense in that story.

So that's the first pitch to give them - that there are other ways to interpret "God's economy" than what WL proposed. OBW in #429 has also given some good ways to look at it. His list is relevant, and the last point of "one another" dovetails neatly with my take on both Paul and James following the lead of Jesus to think of others. They're all in lockstep, Peter/Paul/James/John, there is no "high" versus "low" gospel. And the "one another" part means, the gospel is NOT self-oriented, but other oriented. It's not about you but your neighbour.

(I was right up front going, "IIIIIYYYYYEEE CANNNN EXERCISE MMYYYYYY SPIIIIIIRRIIIIIITTTT!!!!" [AYYEEEEMMEEENNNNN!!]. No, sorry, the "I" and "my" of the gospel isn't Aaron. It's Jesus Christ.)

The second pitch that I offer up is to ask, Where does Paul include 'intensification' as an essential component of his "oikonomea theou"? Where's the basis for saying that "oikonomea theou" as taught by Paul and Timothy included intensification? And if Paul and Timothy can't be seen teaching this, why are you including it?

There are of course other points to be made as well, and I'm not being comprehensive. But even my few notices serve to show that the "economy of God" as taught by WL and disseminated the Local Churches beholden to his ministry was deficient and unsatisfactory at best, and complete mis-aiming and stumbling at worst.

[Trapped]

Well, this is a massive thread, which is not surprising given that "God's economy" was almost Witness Lee's magnum opus. But I'll throw into the discussion mix here what was presented on God's economy on the YouTube channel "The Lord's Recovery Unchained", in this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JalxSHAj_II

I won't reproduce all the details, but basically he makes a very compelling case from scripture that the economy of God is not God dispensing Himself or anything that Witness Lee said it was, but is actually "the stewardship that God gave to Paul to preach the gospel to the Gentiles". A responsibility entrusted to Paul that Paul carried out. I had previously concluded that the economy of God was some kind of way that the believers were supposed to relate to each other in the church, an overarching love, a sharing of possessions, etc, but the video goes through the context of all the times "oikonomia" is used in the New Testament, and it's pretty obvious it is the stewardship Paul was given to make the gospel known to the Gentiles.

I continue to be blown away just how far Witness Lee's teachings are from what the book he CLAIMS his teachings are based on actually says, and how much wasted brain space I have of those totally meaningless and useless teachings!!

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

(FYI - I made this post as a response to Trapped's post, and then realized that I was part of significant dialog in this thread over a year ago! So this response was not a continuation of any of that previous rather complex communication - just a simple response to another brother. BTW - I did watch the linked video, which makes a good point in the Greek grammar.)

I must admit this was one teaching of WL's that I didn't look at that much - it always seemed a little esoteric, or at least I didn't have much of an inner registration to look into it deeply. Perhaps the Anointing was preserving me in this area and thereby not exposing me (He did that in several ways during my time in the LC). So not sure exactly what the finer points were that WL was espousing here . . .

But what I do see in the Greek usage in this verse (1 Tim 1:4 oikonomia) is simply the administering or stewarding of God's house . . . whose house we are (Heb 3:6). And since the main principle in the Bible is love, to me this just means to make sure everyone in the house is loved, cared for and supplied as they need. Now, by extension, what God is supplying us is the "bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ," (Phil 1:19) along with, of course, our physical/psychological needs as well. To the end that we will all be transformed into His image, a perfected* counterpart with "no spot or wrinkle or any such thing."

I don't know if this aligns with what WL taught or not - this is just what I see in scripture (and which I believe the Lord has shown me). In the opinion of those here, is this view very far off the mark?

* LOVE = perfection

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

...many start with Paul and try to shoehorn the gospels to fit what they think they are getting out of Paul. And they mostly ignore the parts of the gospels that they cant fit into their "Paul" narrative.

But the real way to look at the NT should be similar to what the Jews say about the OT. They essentially say that there is the Law and the Prophets, and the rest is commentary. Layered over the NT, that would be "The gospels are the Gospel. The rest is commentary."

The gospel version of God's economy was plainly laid out in Matthew 6- “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

The epistolic commentary of Paul aligns with this fully. I list 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as the canonical example, spelled out in liberal detail but it's consistently referenced in his epistles (e. g., Rom 15:25-29, 1 Cor 16:1-4) and in his Acts.

Originally Posted by OBW

Effectively, if you can't make Paul and the gospels fit together, you are more likely reading Paul wrong, not the gospels. It is that kind of focus that has brought me to realize that Paul's letters are not about uber-spiritual stuff with a side helping of discipline about their issues.

Paul's acts show him bringing food for the widows of Jerusalem. "11:29 The disciples, as each one was able, decided to provide help for the brothers and sisters living in Judea. 30 This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul...12:25 When Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission, they returned from Jerusalem, taking with them John, also called Mark.."

Then there is the "right hand of fellowship" scene portrayed in Galatians 2, where the pillars of the Jerusalem church ask Paul to remember the poor, to which he replies he's eager to do so. Then to Acts 24:17 where he says that he has returned to Jerusalem with "alms for my nation."

Then all the epistolic enjoinders to set aside something for the poor of Jerusalem make perfect sense. Paul was doing a continuation of the gospel message of Jesus, giving the gentile believers a chance to store up riches in heaven, by giving to the poor while on earth. This is God's economy. Paul told Timothy to remain behind in Ephesus and teach things which result in God's economy, which is in faith, believing that while they are deprived on earth, they have treasure in heaven, where moth cannot consume, and rust cannot destroy, and thief cannot steal.

It's simple, it all fits together, and the gospels and Acts and epistles fit together in lockstep. Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and John are all teaching and doing the same thing.