Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Drake]

ZNP

I understand better what you saying now.

However, the governments of the world are in place according to God's ordination. The time of the Gentiles was revealed to Daniel. Not until the Lord returns will that change. Paul reiterates this when he says we need to be subject to government authorities and he also appealed to Caesar showing that he accepted that authority.

Jezebel was something different. She brought God's people into fornication and idolatry. Though it is not wrong to say that she represents the spirit and nature of the current worldly system, it is imprecise to equate her to the current government of the USA. Rather, she represents a worldliness that is related to idolatry. There really is only one entity that fits the description of Christian in name, speaking for God (she calls herself a prophetess), and ultimately aligns with but eventually is destroyed by AntiChrist. That is the Catholic Church, not the US government.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP

I understand better what you saying now.

However, the governments of the world are in place according to God's ordination. The time of the Gentiles was revealed to Daniel. Not until the Lord returns will that change. Paul reiterates this when he says we need to be subject to government authorities and he also appealed to Caesar showing that he accepted that authority.

Jezebel was something different. She brought God's people into fornication and idolatry. Though it is not wrong to say that she represents the spirit and nature of the current worldly system, it is imprecise to equate her to the current government of the USA. Rather, she represents a worldliness that is related to idolatry. There really is only one entity that fits the description of Christian in name, speaking for God (she calls herself a prophetess), and ultimately aligns with but eventually is destroyed by AntiChrist. That is the Catholic Church, not the US government.

Drake

Wow, what happened to Witness Lee's sect? When I was there in the late 70s and 80s and 90s we were taught to read the Bible based on our experience. We were taught that every verse of the Bible was for us. Your doctrine basically says that all this bad stuff and judgement, that is for the Catholic church, not us.

I completely disagree. Yes, if you wanted to associate Thyatira with one "church" then sure, the Catholic church is the best fit. But my experience is that every believer must deal with Balaam and Jezebel, regardless of whether or not you are in the Catholic church. It is far too convenient and self serving to assume that part of the Bible doesn't speak to you.

The most obvious and undeniable link is 1Cor 6 -- the modern day equivalent of accusing someone of blasphemy and stoning them to death is a lawsuit for slander and libel.

Equating Paul's appeal to Caesar in a criminal case with Witness Lee's justification of a civil suit is shameful. The Apostle Paul wrote 1Cor 6. He was surely aware that he had also "appealed to Caesar".

1. Paul was already being tried, his appeal to Caesar was not the initiation of a lawsuit, but the use of the law to prevent his being assassinated.

2. Witness Lee's "appeal to Caesar" was the initiation of a civil lawsuit, Paul's appeal was a response to an attempt to bring the trial back to Jerusalem. His trial had been moved by the authorities because they had learned of a plot to kill him. Paul's point was that if there were an appeal, it should go up the chain, not down the chain.

Try as they might to justify their lawsuits, it is "utterly a fault" with the Witness Lee sect that they bring these lawsuits against others, that they are known as the group that goes around suing others, that they maintain a legal defense team. What a shame that every member in all of these churches gives to this defense fund whether they know it or not? Whatever happened to separation of the church and the ministry? It is an unholy alliance akin to Ahaz and Jezebel.

If the Catholic church is Thyatira, then Witness Lee's sect is surely Laodicea.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

They claim that they alone stand for oneness while at the time acting in a shameful way condemned by the apostles.

They condemn the Catholic church for tolerating Jezebel, but look at what they tolerate.

You said: The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ. Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ. The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ. There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

You even admit they are symbiotic. We have these words given to us to define our practice, and then to keep the oneness we must practice it. You are the ones who have deviated from that and cause divisions and confusion.

2Kings 9:37 and the body of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel, so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

Dung is used as fertilizer. Jezebel became fertilizer for Jezreel, a place prophesied of by Hosea and related to Jeroboam and his sins.

But I like how Drake does not say that this is Jezebel regarding what Witness Lee did. Witness Lee's sect is like the remains of Jezebel being strewn across this bloody field. How many splits? John So and Europe. Some of the churches in Africa split. Some in South America split. The split with TC. Why is it being ripped up like this? The doctrines certainly haven't changed. No, it is the practice, the sins, the deviation from the Apostle's fellowship that has caused the division and confusion. At least one thing is sure, Drake and others who meet with the sect will not be able to claim ignorance.

[Evangelical]

Jezebel was the daughter of a pagan just as Christian Rome was the daughter of pagan Rome.

Jezebel called herself a queen. Queen of Heaven and Queen of apostles is a title given to the Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics.

Jezebel was engaged in witchcraft, idolatry and various other things, which a number of Popes and others had also engaged in. The Roman Catholic cathedrals of Europe are filled with superstitions, idols, and magical symbols.

Roman Catholicism worships various images and idols just like Jezebel did.

Roman Catholicism has utilized secular powers against the true Christians:

"as Jezebel stirred up Ahab against good and faithful men, is has this church stirred up the secular powers, emperors, kings, and princes, against the true followers of Christ:" (Gill bible commentary).

Just like Jezebel killed the genuine people of God, Roman Catholicism has killed true and genuine Christians throughout the past centuries.

None of these things seem to fit the USA - the USA has never killed true and genuine Christians in the name of God, and neither is the USA a religious entity.

However, that is not to say that the USA is not influenced by the Roman Catholic church, the USA could be seen as a country that tolerates Jezebel. The US may be in league with Jezebel, but Jezebel is a distinct entity.

The goal of the Catholic church has never been to build the body of Christ - only its own empire. It is one of the false religions of the world along with Buddhist, Hindu etc. If one travels to a buddhist ,hindu or moslem country there is often a Catholic church , even in countries where genuine Christians are persecuted or shunned, Catholicism is readily accepted.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Jezebel was the daughter of a pagan just as Christian Rome was the daughter of pagan Rome.
Jezebel called herself a queen. Queen of Heaven and Queen of apostles is a title given to the Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics.

Your one and only sole connection between Jezebel and the Catholic Church is in Revelation based on a historical interpretation of the 7 churches in which case Thyatira becomes the Catholic Church.

Revelation 2:20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.

There are some interesting parallels with the history of the church to see some value in this interpretation.

However, there are many very serious problems with this interpretation to make it very clear that it is not "the" interpretation, nor is it the only way to view these 7 churches. For example Witness Lee taught that we will rule the nations in the coming age, yet that promise is given to the overcomers in the church in Thyatira. Witness Lee also taught that we have the morning star, the day star (hence the name of his failed business venture). But that promise is given to the overcomers in Thyatira. In fact Witness Lee taught that we go through all the experiences mentioned in the church of Ephesus, yet according to the Historical doctrine, that church no longer exists.

Second, there is no basis at all, from the Bible, to equate Jezebel with the Catholic Church. The first mention of Jezebel predates the Catholic church by a thousand years.

All of your parallels are equally valid if used for anyone who sets themselves up as an illegitimate leader of the church (MOTA).

A MOTA calls themselves a prophet. They use verses that clearly apply to Jesus as the minister of this age, to apply to themselves. That is idolatry.

A MOTA says that they alone have the authority to appoint elders and kick elders out.

A MOTA promotes the worship of idols -- see the loyalty pledge that elders were forced to sign and compare that with James warning --

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by the heaven, nor by the earth, nor by any other oath: but let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay; that ye fall not under judgment.

Forcing the saints to sign a loyalty pledge is equivalent to seducing them to worship idols. Then requiring all kinds of payments for "standing orders" that they don't want, training fees, legal defense funds, lawsuits against saints, Blue chairs, One publication, etc is equivalent to forcing them to eat things sacrificed to idols. So why would you limit this to the Catholic church. Anyone that seduces the saints to worship idols and eat things sacrificed to idols could fit this bill.

You may argue that the MOTA was not involved in witchcraft, yet the Bible says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The Lawsuits are just one example of rebellion by the MOTA. There are others.

Lawsuits against Christians is using secular powers against Christians. Hence the MOTA did this as well.

You link Jezebel to the Pope, yet you can easily link Jezebel to any illegitimate leader in the church.

[Evangelical]

I believe Jezebel specifically refers to pagan idolatry and so forth. It also includes murderous intent towards true believers and an upside down authority of female over male (such as putting the woman Mary above Christ). Kinds of idolatry such as "I love my car" is not Jezebel...

Jezebel can represent the corruption of any part of Christianity due to pagan influences throughout the ages. Afterall, what is Christmas, Easter etc other than a pagan influence, coming from Catholicism.

I like this article by Professor Walter J. Veith which provides scholarly credence to the view:

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Revelation_Thyatira_Jezebel_pagan-temples

[Evangelical]

Sometimes it helps to consider what sort of pagan influences we are talking about in relation to Jezebel and see some pictures. So I provide some websites with pictures below. Jezebel deceived God's people to worship Baal who was the sun god. In Catholic cathedrals there are various symbols pointing to the ancient religions and in particular worship of the sun god.

This is explained here:


The round disc in the crescent moon was a symbol of ancient Babylon, and is found in all the ancient religions. In Catholic cathedrals, these symbols are very prominent, often depicting a round form of mother and child within the crescent moon.

The rebirth of the sun god was celebrated by the eating of round bread in Babylonian times, and was common in Mithraism and Osiris worship. Historian Alexander Hislop says this:

And here, in a so-called Christian Church, a brilliant plate of silver, “in the form of the SUN,” is so placed on the altar, that everyone who adores at the altar must bow in lowly reverence before that image of the “SUN.” Whence, I ask, could that have come, than from the ancient SUN-worship, or the worship of Baal? And when the wafer is placed so that the silver “SUN” is fronting the “round” wafer, whose "roundness" is so important an element in the Romish Mystery, is only another symbol of Baal, or the sun, what can be the meaning of it, but to show to those who have eyes to see that the “Wafer” itself is only another symbol of Baal.i

i. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (New Jersey: Loizeauz Brothers, 1959): 120-121.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_paganism_Catholic_mass_silver


For pictures to verify the connection between Catholicism and Paganism, see here:

http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/roman-catholic-sun-worship-eucharist.html


Various other pagan symbols are described here:
http://romancatholicbeliefs.org/roman-catholic-church-pagan-god-symbols/

I also found this a helpful read:
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/23245-queen-of-may-the-spirit-jezebel-is-hiding-behind-these-altars


If we were to consider the question of who or where is Jezebel today, the religious institution which fits that description the best is the Roman Catholic church. Of course, this does not mean any individual Christian or group is not in danger of following the same path, nor does it excuse idolatry in general which may take various forms. There are many different kinds of idolatry yet the one related to Jezebel specifically must be the Catholic church. Of all the kinds of idolatry this one is the most dangerous as it substitutes genuine Christianity for a counterfeit. That is, it not only replaces God but also deceives a person into thinking the idol is God. People think they are worshiping God but instead are worshiping the counterfeit sun-god. It also stirs up genuine believers of God to kill other genuine believers - the Catholic church is responsible for the deaths of many over past history.

We should remember that with the Jezebel is also an Ahab. Without Ahab, Jezebel has no power in the church. The ones who defend the Catholic church are like Ahab's giving Jezebel free reign. Genuine Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Counterfeit Christianity has its roots in paganism.

[ZNPaaneah]

Great.

The Bible says several things about Jezebel we can all agree on:

1. She calls herself a prophetess -- so she presents herself as some sort of religious leader. Cultic leader.

2. She both teaches and seduces -- her form of teaching involves psychological ploys that play on people's fantasies, lusts, greed, etc.

3. She specifically teaches the servants of Jesus to commit fornication, that is to have another Lord other than Jesus. This is idol worship.

4. In addition to this she convinces these servants to eat things sacrificed to idols. Financially support this idolatrous practice.

Now it may be true that we can see this very clearly in the history of the Catholic church, but why should we limit this form of deceit to the Catholic church? There is nothing in the Bible that says we should.

If Witness Lee did these four things then why wouldn't you diagnose this as being the same spirit?

[Drake]

ZNP) "Wow, what happened to Witness Lee's sect? When I was there in the late 70s and 80s and 90s we were taught to read the Bible based on our experience. We were taught that every verse of the Bible was for us. Your doctrine basically says that all this bad stuff and judgement, that is for the Catholic church, not us.

I completely disagree. Yes, if you wanted to associate Thyatira with one "church" then sure, the Catholic church is the best fit. But my experience is that every believer must deal with Balaam and Jezebel, regardless of whether or not you are in the Catholic church. It is far too convenient and self serving to assume that part of the Bible doesn't speak to you."

ZNP,

Of course the Lord may speak to us through every scripture. For instance, reading Revelation 2:23 the Lord may impress us that He is the One who has the ability to and will search our hearts and minds. He is the One that is qualified and will repay us according to our deeds. He may show me that my posts are deeds and He will assess them and repay me according to the thoughts, intents, and what I type.

However, that is not how you are applying the Word of God as demonstrated here in this thread. Rather, you are as you say above reading "the Bible based on your experience". You read the Bible and apply and interpret it according to your experience. That becomes a filter. Then the kind of Bible you have is based on the kind of person you are. Also, you apply it to others and not yourself.

Though the Lord may speak to us and enlighten us when we read the Bible there are also truths. Those truths are not changeable and we cannot apply them anyway we like, certainly not according to our experience. For instance, you have misapplied Jezebel as the US government. Nor are the 850 prophets who eat at her table symbols of scientists and pollsters.

Drake