Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Drake]

ZNP) "Jezebel set up a governing principle that short circuited God out of the equation. In her reign God was not "over all". Jesus was not Lord. If you wanted an entrance into her kingdom you kowtowed to her request to stone Naboth. They did not meet in spirit and in truth, they met in malice and deceit."

ZNP,

Jezebel was Gentile prostitute. You talk about her as though she held some legitimate position in God's administration. Jezebel represents all that is opposed to God. She was Satanic and represents that still today. Don't misapply who she is and what she represents else you will miss the point. The book of Revelation provides that insight.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP) "Jezebel set up a governing principle that short circuited God out of the equation. In her reign God was not "over all". Jesus was not Lord. If you wanted an entrance into her kingdom you kowtowed to her request to stone Naboth. They did not meet in spirit and in truth, they met in malice and deceit."

ZNP,

Jezebel was Gentile prostitute. You talk about her as though she held some legitimate position in God's administration. Jezebel represents all that is opposed to God. She was Satanic and represents that still today. Don't misapply who she is and what she represents else you will miss the point. The book of Revelation provides that insight.

Drake

Jezebel refers to a Queen in Israel who had a major influence on her husband, the king of Israel.

We see that she sent letters to have people stoned to death, that people obeyed her, that she seized their land, that she employed 850 "prophets" of Baal and Asharoth, that she sought to have prophets of God cut off and even killed.

In the New Testament we see her exercising an evil influence on the church in Thyatira. There is no Biblical record that she was a prostitute. I have already quoted verses from the OT that show she was a gentile. The closest connection the Bible makes to saying she was a prostitute was that she used make up at a time that this might have been unusual for your average Israelite (I am not familiar with the archaelogical records) but we know that make up was used in Egypt prior to this time.

The allegation that she was a prostitute is based on the association of her name with "evil and adulterous" in the church in Thyatira, however, that expression is very likely allegorical referring to spiritual adultery. There is a parallel that can be made based on the prophet Hosea referring to Jezreel and because of that he is to take a wife of whoredoms. But it is directly tied to Jeroboam, rather than Jezebel. Yes, they are both related to Jezreel, so that can be a very stretched allegorical connection. There is a very clear case made that her behavior was evil and adulterous from a spiritual perspective. That is clear. However, her name means chaste and it is likely that she cloaked herself in the "holier than thou" type rhetoric we have commonly seen in evil and adulterous politicians and religious leaders.

You have a very vague use of this expression "legitimate position in God's administration". The record in both the Old and New Testaments relate her being very much involved in the administration of the church in Thyatira, and the administration of the kingdom of Israel. We do not know anything of her position in the church other than she "called herself a prophetess" while in the OT she clearly had the position of Queen as well as someone who ran a stable of 850 prophets. Any body reading the Bible today would see very clearly that her position was not legitimate, based on the judgement of God and the judgement of Jesus. But during her lifetime you also see there were very few who actually stood up to oppose her. Perhaps Antipas, who was martyred did. Elijah did. But who else? I consider it deceptive to ignore the fact that the vast majority of those affected by her tolerated her, allowed her to operate, or at the very least did not openly oppose her.

The idea is to learn from history so that we don't repeat it. There were elders who did her bidding, there were those like Naboth who suffered her abuse, there were captains who followed her orders, and there was one prophet being fed by ravens who stood up to her.

I have not missed the point that she was Satanic, what people don't realize is that she was "deceitfully wicked". I am more focused on seeing through the deceit. I feel her deceit has permeated all government and all religion. I feel that only someone who has a very clear vision and strong faith, like Elijah or Antipas is going to see through her, expose her, stand up to her, and perhaps live to tell the tale.

[ZNPaaneah]

1Kings 21:23 And of Jezebel also spake Jehovah, saying, The dogs shall eat Jezebel by the rampart of Jezreel.

If this judgement were understood allegorically we consider certain types of newspapers to be "rags" and the paparazzi to behave like a pack of wild dogs. When you have a scandal on the front page of the newspaper it is as though the dogs are licking that persons blood. We see this happen all the time, every month for sure, perhaps every week, sometimes every day.

Jezebel is not some strange, once in a thousand years experience. Dealing with her is part of our everyday experience. My point is not that she has a legitimate position, but that she does have a very big influence on our daily life.

There is a lot more to this picture, you have the vineyard of Naboth that she seized, you have the use of stoning and false accusation of Blasphemy, and you have this reference to the rampart of Jezreel.

You don't need a black and white teaching concerning her because there are plenty of black and white teachings that condemn what she does both in the OT and NT.

[Drake]

ZNP) "Jezebel refers to a Queen in Israel who had a major influence on her husband, the king of Israel."

Jezebel was not the queen in that her coming together with Ahab was fornication. God does not acknowledge the marriage between His people and the Gentiles as proper. She calls herself a prophetess but was not a prophetess by God's definition. Through a marital arrangement, an official fornication arrangement in this case, this Gentile woman assumes authority to exercise over God's people. By calling herself a prophetess she teaches God's people to commit fornication which leads to idolatry. She confuses the words of God and the people of God. Ahab the king was joined to the world through Jezebel.

That is why I think you are giving too much credit to Jezebel as if she were a legitimate queen in God's eyes. The woman who leavens in Matthew 13, the Jezebel in Thyatira in Revelation 2, and the Harlot in Revelation 17 provide insight into this woman's character and what she represents. She is not a part of God's elect she is only calling herself such, teaching as if she were, and assuming authority to exercise over God's genuine people.

Drake

[Drake]

ZNP) "Neither Ohio, Igzy or myself have argued that the physical is not needed, nor have we argued that both spiritual and physical are not needed. If we thought that we wouldn't even be in the discussion. Our discussion demonstrates that we do care about both."

You are arguing about the same thing just in varying degrees and angles. However, it was not fair to cite Igzy and Ohio while addressing your comments so my apologies for doing that. I will address their comments in their own context.

ZNP)"What we have noticed is that the so called "ground of the oneness" taught by Witness Lee does absolutely nothing to protect or keep the oneness and is actually used in practice as a tool to condemn and divide Christians."

My observation is that in practice you continually retreat to the ones in Ephesians as the base of your argument. When the discussion is about the biblical definition of meetings you assert that Brother Lee's teaching is at odds with the ones in Ephesians. When in fact, Brother Lee's interest is for the building of the Body of Christ and the churches, the procedure in this age, is for the building. The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ. Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ. The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ. There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

My observation is that in practice you continually retreat to the ones in Ephesians as the base of your argument. When the discussion is about the biblical definition of meetings you assert that Brother Lee's teaching is at odds with the ones in Ephesians. When in fact, Brother Lee's interest is for the building of the Body of Christ and the churches, the procedure in this age, is for the building.

The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ.
Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ.
The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ.

There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

Drake

Just keep attacking the greater body of Christ and supposedly the "last man standing" is WL and the LC's who alone will "build the body of Christ."

This is the critical standard M.O. for every LC diehard. How is that working for you? Even Bill Lawson on that promotional message debunks that assertion. Have you heard?

I was in the LC's for 30 years, and I heard this spiel ad nauseum, but I never saw anything resembling the "builded body." Perhaps you might want to rethink your "gospel," and go with something that has a shred of veracity in it. The "practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians" exists no where in the present day "Recovery."

[Drake]

Ohio)" Even Bill Lawson on that promotional message debunks that assertion. Have you heard?"

If it is relevant post it here.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP) "Jezebel refers to a Queen in Israel who had a major influence on her husband, the king of Israel."..

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that Jezebel was unjust, and that she was not fit to rule Israel and that it was utterly a fault of Israel that they allowed her to confuse the word of God and the people of God?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that Jezebel was unjust, and that she was not fit to rule Israel and that it was utterly a fault of Israel that they allowed her to confuse the word of God and the people of God?

All that's true.

But that is not what I said.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

All that's true.

But that is not what I said.

Drake

No, but it is what Paul said:

1Cor 6:6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

What you did say is that "Jezebel was not the Queen, her coming together with Ahab was fornication".

In the same way the US government should not be called on to determine if the Witness Lee sect is a cult. That choice was utterly a fault among the LC, it demonstrated that they were blind and didn't even see that the unbelievers are not just, they are not able to make this judgement, and it was a shame that they couldn't find a Christian to judge the matter among themselves. In the end, the final analysis, Witness Lee and his henchman defrauded our brethren. Not just those that lost the lawsuit, but those that supported it, paid for it, etc.

Which is what you said when you said "By calling herself a prophetess she teaches God's people to commit fornication which leads to idolatry. She confuses the words of God and the people of God. Ahab the king was joined to the world through Jezebel."

You accuse me of giving too much credit to Jezebel and giving her legitimacy she didn't have. That is what Witness Lee and the blendeds did and do by using a legal defense team and lawsuits to advance their "ministry". Before judging others try removing the beam that is in your own eye.

[Drake]

ZNP

Since you knew that is not what I said why did you ask me if that is what I said?

Drake