Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Drake]

The basic sin of Jeroboam is that he established a worship center that was not in the place appointed by God. This opened the door to all the other sins.

God prescribed the place, time, and methods for worshipping God. Jeroboam set up a his own place and method. God said in this way, and Jeroboam said, that way will do just as well. He disregarded God's prescription of worship for one of his own preference.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

The basic sin of Jeroboam is that he established a worship center that was not in the place appointed by God. This opened the door to all the other sins.

God prescribed the place, time, and methods for worshipping God. Jeroboam set up a his own place and method. God said in this way, and Jeroboam said, that way will do just as well. He disregarded God's prescription of worship for one of his own preference.

Drake

God's prescription for worship in the NT is "in spirit and in truth." Nothing more, nothing less.

Worship in spirit and truth is thus the proper NT "place," and thus corresponds to the OT temple. The temple is the house of God, which is now the church. Thus, worshiping in spirit and truth implies the church is there, especially when two or three are gathered. Thus no need for "the local ground" to have church.

Since Jesus made it clear the proper place of worship is only "in spirit and truth," insisting on the local ground could be viewed as actually setting up a different place of worship than Jesus prescribed, and thus could be viewed as a sin like Jeroboam's. But clearly the temple was not the only place of worship. The Jews established synagogues, which Jesus attended reverently. Thus the strict idea that the temple was the only proper place of worship is an error.

So leveraging the "proper place of worship" as a pretext to pushing the local ground is both invalid and self-nullifying.

If you insist the temple was the only proper place of worship, then it must be that "in spirit and truth" implies that the temple, thus the church, is present and the local ground is unneeded.

If you don't insist the temple was the only proper place of worship then that weakens the local ground argument as well.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

God's prescription for worship in the NT is "in spirit and in truth." Nothing more, nothing less.

Worship in spirit and truth is thus the proper NT "place," and thus corresponds to the OT temple. The temple is the house of God, which is now the church. Thus, worshiping in spirit and truth implies the church is there, especially when two or three are gathered. Thus no need for "the local ground" to have church.

Since Jesus made is clear the proper place of worship is only "in spirit and truth," insisting on the local ground is actually setting up a different place of worship that Jesus prescribed, and thus could be viewed as a sin like Jeroboam's.

Spirit and truth should immediately remind us of Matthew 18. The proper spirit is that of the shepherd seeking the lost sheep, the improper spirit is the one causing the little ones to stumble. Meeting in truth is when you are obedient to the Lord to faithfully deal with sins. Covering them up, ignoring them, that is not truth.

It is in this context that Jesus says "wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst".

The context is that they are meeting in Spirit and truth. That is the prerequisite to "meeting in the name of Jesus".

One thing that most people forget is that Matthew 18 was Jesus answering a question from the disciples. The entire chapter is his answer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

God's prescription for worship in the NT is "in spirit and in truth." Nothing more, nothing less.

Worship in spirit and truth is thus the proper NT "place," and thus corresponds to the OT temple. The temple is the house of God, which is now the church. Thus, worshiping in spirit and truth implies the church is there, especially when two or three are gathered. Thus no need for "the local ground" to have church.

Since Jesus made it clear the proper place of worship is only "in spirit and truth," insisting on the local ground could be viewed as actually setting up a different place of worship than Jesus prescribed, and thus could be viewed as a sin like Jeroboam's. But clearly the temple was not the only place of worship. The Jews established synagogues, which Jesus attended reverently. Thus the strict idea that the temple was the only proper place of worship is an error.

The Lord made it clear to the Samaritan women that any physical or earthly place, even one prescribed in scripture, was no longer valid in the New Covenant time, "which is coming and now is." (John 4.24) Whether a church building, a synagogue, a mountain, the temple, or even the boundaries of a city -- all are done away with in the New Covenant, established through the cross of Christ. Old Testament instructions no longer apply here.

What is crucial is "in spirit and truth." The preposition "in" describes the only possible place to worship the Father. Are you in spirit? Are you in truth? These are the questions we all must ask. Any connection to an organization, a ministry, a minister, or a program cannot validate nor invalidate your worship of the Father.

I have worshiped the Father receiving communion at a Catholic wedding mass, in a home meeting, traveling in a car, in my bed, in a university examination, being berated by brothers, being outcast by family. When we consider all of God's children, there is just no limit to the "places" our Father has been worshiped in spirit and reality. When, however, I consider how sectarian leaders, like those of the LCM, mandate self-serving practices on the children of God, I wonder how often we completely missed the mark.

Tonight we are traveling to an old schoolhouse to have a "love feast" or Christmas dinner with some brothers and sisters we occasionally meet with. It is in the middle of no where. It is an unincorporated town or village. There is no "city" out there. There are no city boundaries. No mayor, no Walmart, no gas station. Definitely not "good material" for LC expansion. But God is there! We can worship in spirit and reality. We can gather in His name.

[ZNPaaneah]

1Kings 19:1-2 And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and withal how he had slain all the prophets with the sword. Then Jezebel sent a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to-morrow about this time.

All of the prophets are killed as the result of a single act of God. Think about that, the experts spend billions for years on a levy system for the Mississippi, then as a result of a single act of God like Katrina the whole world realizes they have been lied to for years.

Or think about the Haiti earthquake which exposed all the shoddy workmanship, government corruption, etc.

Or who could forget the ridiculous growth projections made when Witness Lee rolled out the New Way. Now al that is left to complete this is for fire to fall from heaven.

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

She hired evil men and impostors for the purpose of deceiving the nation of Israel, but in the end she thought Elijah was just like one of them. She spent her life deceiving and in the end she was deceived, unable to discern a prophet of God from a false prophet.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord made it clear to the Samaritan women that any physical or earthly place, even one prescribed in scripture, was no longer valid in the New Covenant time, "which is coming and now is." (John 4.24) Whether a church building, a synagogue, a mountain, the temple, or even the boundaries of a city -- all are done away with in the New Covenant, established through the cross of Christ. Old Testament instructions no longer apply here.

What is crucial is "in spirit and truth." The preposition "in" describes the only possible place to worship the Father. Are you in spirit? Are you in truth? These are the questions we all must ask. Any connection to an organization, a ministry, a minister, or a program cannot validate nor invalidate your worship of the Father.

I have worshiped the Father receiving communion at a Catholic wedding mass, in a home meeting, traveling in a car, in my bed, in a university examination, being berated by brothers, being outcast by family. When we consider all of God's children, there is just no limit to the "places" our Father has been worshiped in spirit and reality. When, however, I consider how sectarian leaders, like those of the LCM, mandate self-serving practices on the children of God, I wonder how often we completely missed the mark.

Tonight we are traveling to an old schoolhouse to have a "love feast" or Christmas dinner with some brothers and sisters we occasionally meet with. It is in the middle of no where. It is an unincorporated town or village. There is no "city" out there. There are no city boundaries. No mayor, no Walmart, no gas station. Definitely not "good material" for LC expansion. But God is there! We can worship in spirit and reality. We can gather in His name.

You are trying to say that the view of locality contradicts John 4:24 but this is not so. We worship in spirit and truth and congregate on the basis of locality. What you say regarding worship matches Lee's commentary on John 4:24.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are trying to say that the view of locality contradicts John 4:24 but this is not so. We worship in spirit and truth and congregate on the basis of locality. What you say regarding worship matches Lee's commentary on John 4:24.

Well I think we can agree that Jezebel does not meet in Spirit and truth, nor do the men that do her bidding.

1Kings 21:7 And Jezebel his wife said unto him, Dost thou now govern the kingdom of Israel? arise, and eat bread, and let thy heart be merry: I will give thee the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.

1Kings 21:11 And the men of his city, even the elders and the nobles who dwelt in his city, did as Jezebel had sent unto them, according as it was written in the letters which she had sent unto them.

1Kings 21:15 And it came to pass, when Jezebel heard that Naboth was stoned, and was dead, that Jezebel said to Ahab, Arise, take possession of the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, which he refused to give thee for money; for Naboth is not alive, but dead.

She came to steal, kill and destroy. She is a liar and follows the father of lies. This is why it is crucial for the church to deal with sins as described in Matt 18. This is the perfect example of a leader who "stumbles" the little brother that Jesus rebuked in Matt 18 saying it would be better to have a millstone around your neck. She is the contrast to the good shepherd who seeks the lost sheep. It is an evil spirit that permeates what she is about. Then when she is exposed it is deny, deny, deny. There is no truth because the truth is that she is a liar who has come to steal, kill and destroy.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are trying to say that the view of locality contradicts John 4:24 but this is not so.

Locality is extraneous to John 4:24. Locality itself doesn't contradict 4:24, insisting on meeting based on locality does. When asked specifically about the proper place of worship Jesus had the opportunity to mention locality, but he did not. He said specifically that the only requirement is in spirit and in truth (ISIT). Since ISIT has replaced the temple as the proper place of worship, and since the church is the NT temple (1 Tim 3:15), ISIT implies the church is present. There is no requirement for locality.

Locality is a natural consequence of meeting in Spirit. Believers tend to meet with other believers who live near them. Most people don't tend to travel 30 miles across town to meet, ironically unless they are in the LCM. But meeting based on locality, let alone based on city boundaries, is not a NT requirement. When two or three meet together in spirit and truth, the church is there.

Insisting otherwise is to say the church barely exists on earth today. If the church doesn't exist between believers in spirit, what does, and where has the church gone? Is it suspended somewhere? I remember Lee mocking Christian teachers who claimed that the kingdom was suspended. But his doctrine of no locality/no church results in an even more ridiculous doctrine of a suspended church.

Again, Lee's doctrine of locality is simply a means to validate his churches and discredit all others. It's just a ploy to keep members in his movement. The NT does not require it. It goes beyond what is written, including in John 4:24.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Locality is extraneous to John 4:24. Locality itself doesn't contradict 4:24, insisting on meeting based on locality does. When asked specifically about the proper place of worship Jesus had the opportunity to mention locality, but he did not. He said specifically that the only requirement is in spirit and in truth (ISIT). Since ISIT has replaced the temple as the proper place of worship, and since the church is the NT temple (1 Tim 3:15), ISIT implies the church is present. There is no requirement for locality.

Locality is a natural consequence of meeting in Spirit. Believers tend to meet with other believers who live near them. Most people don't tend to travel 30 miles across town to meet, ironically unless they are in the LCM. But meeting based on locality, let alone based on city boundaries, is not a NT requirement. When two or three meet together in spirit and truth, the church is there.

Yes, locality is not a NT requirement, but in Spirit and in Truth is. Meeting in the name of Jesus is.

[ZNPaaneah]

1Kings 18:4 for it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of Jehovah, that Obadiah took a hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)

The only ones that would stand against Jezebel would be the prophets of God. So a key part of her strategy was not to just put 850 of her own prophets into place but to also cut off the prophets of God.

We saw this with Hitler when he took power, assassinating those who would stand against him.

You can learn about the leader by those he appoints as well as those he goes after to cut off.

This is why we are so concerned with the attack from Witness Lee towards all Christianity and all Christians. He effectively "cut off" any prophets other than LSM approved prophets. As a result there were no voices to stand against WL.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

The basic sin of Jeroboam is that he established a worship center that was not in the place appointed by God. This opened the door to all the other sins.

God prescribed the place, time, and methods for worshipping God. Jeroboam set up a his own place and method. God said in this way, and Jeroboam said, that way will do just as well. He disregarded God's prescription of worship for one of his own preference.

Drake

Yes, but the Bible never refers to the "basic sin" or the "sin of Jeroboam" but to the sins of Jeroboam.

1. Establishing a worship center is one

2. Causing the division to be permanent is a second.

The second is very difficult because it was God that told Jeroboam to initiate the process and it was prophesied that he would get the ten tribes to follow him. But God never told him to make this permanent or set up his own worship center. God's intention may have been to rebuke the nation of Israel but then to have them repent. Jeroboam did everything in his power to prevent them from being reconciled.

This brings to mind Jonah who didn't want to see his enemy reconciled to God.

Very often those that talk the most about oneness and the importance of oneness are actually the ones that don't want God's children to be reconciled. Oneness becomes a golden idol they make sacrifices to. Hence obedience is better than sacrifice.

The sins of Jeroboam are similar to the sins of Saul. Disobedience, envy, jealousy, idolatry, witchcraft.