Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Perhaps we disagree on what the Bible says.

I understand that there is a worldly system that began with Cain. This was manifested in Babel. This city was full of idols. Ultimately we see this as "the great Babylon" in Rev 17 and 18 as a counterfeit for the New Jerusalem.

The spirit that operates is the spirit of disobedience. We can see this operation in the story of Jezebel. She is the personification of this evil system.

I agree with WL that she can be seen in the woman that hid the leaven in the meal. I also agree with WL that she can be seen in the harlot that sits on the beast and that this same spirit operates in her daughters.

So, when someone says "what is the spirit of the worldly system", what does that mean? I would say that you can see what that means by looking at Jezebel.

You want to say that Jezebel does not refer to the material world.

Once again I would refer you to the key criteria.

1. Teach idolatry -- Christmas is an example. Is Christmas part of the religious world or the material world? I say both. If you don't agree, fine, but don't accuse me of being misleading.

2. Eat things sacrificed to idols -- Christmas is a good example. Is the "eating things sacrificed to this idol" part of the religious world or the material world? I say it is both. If you don't agree fine, but don't accuse me of being misleading.

3. Do they claim that Santa Claus is a saint, a prophet, a magical being? I say they do. Both the worldly system as well as the religious system. If you don't agree, fine, but don't accuse me of being misleading.

4. I feel they substitute Santa for Jesus. I feel this is true of both the worldly Babylon and the Religious Babylon. If you don' agree, fine, but don't accuse me of being misleading.

5. I feel they seduce the Lord's servants to commit fornication in their worship. I feel this is true of both the worldly Babylon and the Religious Babylon. If you don't agree, fine, but don't accuse me of being misleading.

I do not disagree with any of the correlation made with the Roman Catholic church. It is all valid. What I do disagree with is your assertion that Jezebel must be limited to that historical example.



You are making a mock of sin.



Well perhaps we'll be able to get things into focus. I am very clear that you have accused me of error, but do not see any error that you have identified.

Generally in the world there is a "spirit of lawlessness" that the Bible speaks of. Jezebel is possibly one form of that. The spirit of lawlessness manifests as the Jezebel spirit, Balaam etc. But in Revelation Jesus attributes Jezebel to the church at Thyatira and does not mention the worldly system at all. Jezebel is thought to be applied to a faction within the church.

Ellicot's commentary says

A large number of respectable critics regard Jezebel as a name applied to a faction, not as belonging to an individual. It seems best to view the name as symbolical, always remembering that the Jezebel spirit of proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.

[Evangelical]

For an example of Jezebel...

Hear the testimony of an Ex-Roman Catholic Nun, Sister Charletta and the atrocities she experienced at the hands of the wicked and barbaric priests of the Roman Catholic Whore of Babylon.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/overcomingthedragon/the-vatican-its-dark-dark-dark-secret

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Revelation 18:4

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

For an example of Jezebel...

Hear the testimony of an Ex-Roman Catholic Nun, Sister Charletta and the atrocities she experienced at the hands of the wicked and barbaric priests of the Roman Catholic Whore of Babylon.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/overcomingthedragon/the-vatican-its-dark-dark-dark-secret

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Revelation 18:4

Is that any worse than the carnage inflicted by Phillip Lee while running LSM?

"Come out of her My people!"

Does that make the LCM part of the Whore of Babylon?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that any worse than the carnage inflicted by Phillip Lee while running LSM?

"Come out of her My people!"

Does that make the LCM part of the Whore of Babylon?

I do believe the local churches can be affected by Jezebel , I said that in one of my earlier posts on this topic. Was not Thyatira a genuine local church? (not a denomination).

However I cannot say whether or not these matters you referred to are or are not worse, because I came into the Recovery after all this happened. Probably I should read some more threads on here to accurately assess what actually happened.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I do believe the local churches can be affected by Jezebel , I said that in one of my earlier posts on this topic. Was not Thyatira a genuine local church? (not a denomination).

However I cannot say whether or not these matters you referred to are or are not worse, because I came into the Recovery after all this happened. Probably I should read some more threads on here to accurately assess what actually happened.

I was taught by Lee to condemn the Catholic church for what their ancestors did a thousand years ago, so how could W. Lee complain about you researching his history?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was taught by Lee to condemn the Catholic church for what their ancestors did a thousand years ago, so how could W. Lee complain about you researching his history?

Indeed, how can he, now that he is dead.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was taught by Lee to condemn the Catholic church for what their ancestors did a thousand years ago, so how could W. Lee complain about you researching his history?

Is this really his argument? He condemns the catholic church for things that took place 500-1,000 years ago, but has no idea about the things that took place in Witness Lee's sect are worse or not because "he came in after they happened"?

I think one thing these guys don't understand is that you never have any idea about these things that are happening until many years later. When you are there at the time you are told that "the responsible brothers" are taking care of it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Is this really his argument? He condemns the catholic church for things that took place 500-1,000 years ago, but has no idea about the things that took place in Witness Lee's sect are worse or not because "he came in after they happened"?

I think one thing these guys don't understand is that you never have any idea about these things that are happening until many years later. When you are there at the time you are told that "the responsible brothers" are taking care of it.

Actually, back in those days, no brother was acting responsibly, and no responsible brother was acting as he should.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Is this really his argument? He condemns the catholic church for things that took place 500-1,000 years ago, but has no idea about the things that took place in Witness Lee's sect are worse or not because "he came in after they happened"?

I think one thing these guys don't understand is that you never have any idea about these things that are happening until many years later. When you are there at the time you are told that "the responsible brothers" are taking care of it.

Actually the story I posted about Sister “Charletta” happened around the 1940's -50's. Catholicism has not changed any.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Generally in the world there is a "spirit of lawlessness" that the Bible speaks of. Jezebel is possibly one form of that. The spirit of lawlessness manifests as the Jezebel spirit, Balaam etc. But in Revelation Jesus attributes Jezebel to the church at Thyatira and does not mention the worldly system at all. Jezebel is thought to be applied to a faction within the church.

Ellicot's commentary says

A large number of respectable critics regard Jezebel as a name applied to a faction, not as belonging to an individual. It seems best to view the name as symbolical, always remembering that the Jezebel spirit of proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.

Wow, if I read this post I would think that you support this interpretation.

yet when I read this post of yours (107):

It is not WL's interpretation alone, the connection between Catholicism and Baal/Sun worship has long been recognized in Protestantism.

Why is it OK for you to equate the US government with Jezebel but it is not OK if I say the US is Sodom? Don't you know that homosexuality was part of Baal worship? So when you say the US government is Jezebel you are really saying it is Sodom plus other things. Yet you tried your best to argue that US was not Sodom when we had that discussion. I now realize it was because you thought it was Jezebel and not Sodom ,and not because you are ignorant of what is going on in the world.

you can only conclude that you feel the US government is Sodom (which you have stated) and therefore Jezebel.

So let's address what you have said.

1. Jezebel is definitely a manifestation of the spirit of lawlessness, not "possibly".

2. Your quote from Ellicot does not support your assertion that Jezebel does not mention the worldly system at all.

It seems best to view the name as symbolical, always remembering that the Jezebel spirit of proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.

Is not the authority which legalized gay marriage in the US despite this being contrary to majority opinion, using the Supreme court to override a democratically elected congress, isn't that a "proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of -- and perhaps a proud contempt for -- legalism and followed by open immorality."?

3. Regarding your question "why is it ok for you to equate the US government with Jezebel" has been answered twice before. I never equated the US government with Jezebel, what I said was that Jezebel uses worldly methods to rule the church. Now a spirit of disobedience does pervade the US as it is the world, and this spirit does manifest itself very often as a spirit of Jezebel.

For example, during WWII 1% of California farmland was owned by Japanese farmers, but these farms produced 40% of California crops. One of the motivations behind the internment camps in California was that people coveted those farms.

We’re charged with wanting to get rid of the Japs for selfish reasons. We might as well be honest. We do. It’s a question of whether the white man lives on the Pacific Coast or the brown men. They came to this valley to work, and they stayed to take over. They offer higher land prices and higher rents than the white man can pay for land. They undersell the white man in the markets. They can do this because they raise their own labor. They work their women and children while the white farmer has to pay wages for his help. If all the Japs were removed tomorrow, we’d never miss them in two weeks, because the white farmers can take over and produce everything the Jap grows. And we don’t want them back when the war ends, either. (Morton Grodzins, Americans Betrayed Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1949)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, if I read this post I would think that you support this interpretation.

yet when I read this post of yours (107):

It is not WL's interpretation alone, the connection between Catholicism and Baal/Sun worship has long been recognized in Protestantism.

Why is it OK for you to equate the US government with Jezebel but it is not OK if I say the US is Sodom? Don't you know that homosexuality was part of Baal worship? So when you say the US government is Jezebel you are really saying it is Sodom plus other things. Yet you tried your best to argue that US was not Sodom when we had that discussion. I now realize it was because you thought it was Jezebel and not Sodom ,and not because you are ignorant of what is going on in the world.

you can only conclude that you feel the US government is Sodom (which you have stated) and therefore Jezebel.

So let's address what you have said.

1. Jezebel is definitely a manifestation of the spirit of lawlessness, not "possibly".

2. Your quote from Ellicot does not support your assertion that Jezebel does not mention the worldly system at all.

It seems best to view the name as symbolical, always remembering that the Jezebel spirit of proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.

Is not the authority which legalized gay marriage in the US despite this being contrary to majority opinion, using the Supreme court to override a democratically elected congress, isn't that a "proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of -- and perhaps a proud contempt for -- legalism and followed by open immorality."?

3. Regarding your question "why is it ok for you to equate the US government with Jezebel" has been answered twice before. I never equated the US government with Jezebel, what I said was that Jezebel uses worldly methods to rule the church. Now a spirit of disobedience does pervade the US as it is the world, and this spirit does manifest itself very often as a spirit of Jezebel.

For example, during WWII 1% of California farmland was owned by Japanese farmers, but these farms produced 40% of California crops. One of the motivations behind the internment camps in California was that people coveted those farms.

We’re charged with wanting to get rid of the Japs for selfish reasons. We might as well be honest. We do. It’s a question of whether the white man lives on the Pacific Coast or the brown men. They came to this valley to work, and they stayed to take over. They offer higher land prices and higher rents than the white man can pay for land. They undersell the white man in the markets. They can do this because they raise their own labor. They work their women and children while the white farmer has to pay wages for his help. If all the Japs were removed tomorrow, we’d never miss them in two weeks, because the white farmers can take over and produce everything the Jap grows. And we don’t want them back when the war ends, either. (Morton Grodzins, Americans Betrayed Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1949)

Drake and I have been making the distinction that the Bible (and WL) use the term Jezebel in a specific way. That being, the term Jezebel is used in reference to that which affects the people of God from within, not from without. The church is mainly concerned with religious Jezebel as opposed to "worldly Jezebel". Actually the term "worldly Jezebel" does not make sense, because the story of Jezebel only applies to God's people, not the surrounding nations.

Just so we are clear - I believe there is no such thing as an actual spirit of Jezebel going around doing all these things. It is just a manifestation of Satan. Jezebel is a metaphor for a particular set of vices or manifestations of Satan. Just as Sodom is. We all believe Satan is behind it and that is the important thing.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Drake and I have been making the distinction that the Bible (and WL) use the term Jezebel in a specific way. That being, the term Jezebel is used in reference to that which affects the people of God from within, not from without. The church is mainly concerned with religious Jezebel as opposed to "worldly Jezebel". Actually the term "worldly Jezebel" does not make sense, because the story of Jezebel only applies to God's people, not the surrounding nations.

Evangelical and Drake,

So Jezebel feeding 850 pagan prophets at her table "affected God's people from within" hence it is different from the worldly Babylon depicted in Rev 18.

Typical gobbledygook from you.

How about Christmas, does this affect God's people from within? How about a heathen song writer who writes a Christmas song, or a fleshly rock and roll group that performs the Christmas song, or the hollywood studio that makes a Christmas movie, or the actors and actresses, sacred prostitutes, who perform the movie? Do they affect the church from within? Do they seduce God's servants to eat things sacrificed to idols?

If they do affect the church from within are they somehow distinct from the Hollywood industry and Music industry that are part of the worldly Babylon?

How about tele-evangelists. How are they not part of and affected by the television industry?

There is an Episcopal church in NYC that runs a billion dollar fund. How is the running of that fund, which invests in the stocks and bonds that trade on the NYSE, NASDAQ, Chicago mercantile, etc. not affected by the world?

Please answer. Thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A large number of respectable critics regard Jezebel as a name applied to a faction, not as belonging to an individual. It seems best to view the name as symbolical, always remembering that the Jezebel spirit of proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.

Great quote!

I saw this occur before, during, and after the GLA quarantines.

LSM exhibited the Jezebel spirit in full display -- proud, self-constituted authority, vaunting claims of superior holiness, or higher knowledge, linked with a disregard of—and perhaps a proud contempt for—“legalism,” and followed by open immorality, has again and again run riot in the churches of God.