Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ.

NO institute of man can, or ever will, build the Body of Christ. This is why it is so very important that ALL genuine born again believers resist, at all costs, participating in the initiation, continuation or proliferation of the institutes of man. There is little doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of "institutionalized" Christianity.

So this begs the question: Why has the Local Church of Witness Lee followed the Roman Catholic church model and modus operandi in so many major categories? In leadership structure. In policies regulating movement publications. In the creation of a system of fear among the members.

In leadership structure. Witness Lee, at least for the last 20 years of his life, had become the supreme leader of the movement. "The One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age." "The Wise Master Builder". "The Commander in Chief". "The sole Apostle of the First Order". WHAT PART OF POPE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? Upon his death, Lee's published ministry became the Paper Pope. Although the Pope is no longer alive, his College of Cardinals, the self-titled "Blended Brothers", rule and reign in his stead, and most importantly, propagate and enforce The One Publication. Which brings us to the next aspect of the Roman Catholic church:

In policies regulating movement publications. The One Publication edict, - really nothing more and nothing less than a Papal Bull issued against those wanting to turn the movement back to making the Bible the One Publication. Furthermore, "The Ministry", AKA the teachings of and practices established by Witness Lee, serve as the Catechism of the Local Church(es). This wouldn't be such a problem, except for the fact that, just like the Roman Catholic Church, all the members are expected to imbibe every iota with the acceptance and reverence of the Word of God. This one dynamic alone has gotten the Local Church of Witness Lee labeled as a cult of Christianity more than anything else.

In the creation of fear among the members. Admittedly, this dynamic has lessened over the past couple of decades - probably because so many members have departed the movement and have gone on to lead perfectly godly, spiritually fulfilling and fruitful lives. This was is direct contradiction to the warnings of Witness Lee, and more recently, the provably antithetical cautionary claims of LSM president Benson Phillips:

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189)

Originally Posted by Drake

There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

The "practical church life arrangement" has been a work in progress for about 2,000 years now. I hate to break the bad news to you my friend, but neither Nee nor Lee came close to cornering the market on such an arrangement. If they had, we wouldn't be discussing such things on this forum today. But alas, there is some valor in the effort, and for this their reward is in heaven. One of the hardest sayings of the Lord Jesus was "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead".(Matt 8:22) If perhaps Nee and Lee did "define a practical church life arrangement" (and I think, in part, they did) they were never really able to get their followers to truly keep that arrangement. In fact, the years and the decades have declared that God has moved on. The "movement" of The Local Church(es) is no longer moving..and it hasn't been for a very long time.

No doubt, there is not much of a consolation for those who have reached for the best and have fallen short, especially when your intrepid leaders have not only fallen short, they have fallen hard. The dangers and damage are then compounded many fold when the followers of these men turn them into gurus, martyrs, One Apostles, Ministers of the Age, etc, etc.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

NO institute of men can, or ever will, build the Body of Christ. This is why it is so very important that ALL genuine born again believers resist, at all costs, participating in the initiation, continuation or proliferation of the institutes of man. There is little doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of "institutionalized" Christianity.

While I agree with much of your post, UntoHim, I just don't agree with the sentiment that we should resist at all costs the institutes of man. Should we resist colleges, schools and hospitals? Perhaps you were just speaking of "religious" institutions. But even then what does that include? Bible colleges, seminaries, ministries, water distributors in Africa? Even the FTTA can be seen as an institute of men. So can Vacation Bible School. So can Local Church Discussions.

If we declare open war on "institutes of men" then nothing is safe. Anything can be categorized as an "institute of men" and anything can be categorized as a "work of God." Who knows for sure which is which? We can see at the extremes. But as I've said, most things don't exist at the extremes.

The problem is not that men build institutions. They always have and always will. And God actually uses some. The problem is the CLAIMS they make about their institutions in order to manipulate and hold onto members and support. Both the RCC and the LCM have claimed to be God's unique church. They are not the only ones to do this and they won't be the last. But this is where the real problem lies because this is infringing on the consciences of believers.

God gives us the freedom to follow our consciences, and if someone feels to start an "institution" who am I to say he or she is wrong? But when anyone starts to claim that their little corner of the CHURCH is the best corner or, worse, the only legitimate corner, then THAT'S when they've crossed the line as far as I'm concerned. That's when they have become a real problem.

And that's what the LCM has done, in spades, and that's why I speak out against them. If they drop their claims and their way of getting hooks into people's minds to control them, then I'll say "God bless you." Until then they are a threat not only to people, but the CHURCH in general.

This post can be viewed as my "manifesto" of why I post here.

[UntoHim]

Igzy,
My post was in direct response to Drake's post:

Originally Posted by Drake

The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ.

My response was only addressing the building of the Body of Christ.

But let me be clear, I am not against any "institutes of men" per se. In fact, as you have pointed out, most of these institutes are helpful and profitable, even to the Christian Church. Seminaries and other para church organizations would be a good example.
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[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Igzy,
My post was in direct response to Drake's post:

My response was only addressing the building of the Body of Christ.

But let me be clear, I am not against any "institutes of men" per se. In fact, as you have pointed out, most of these institutes are helpful and profitable, even to the Christian Church. Seminaries and other para church organizations would be a good example.
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Right, I think what you meant was the institutes are just tools like anything else. They themselves cannot build the Body of Christ. Only God working through people can.

It's like saying a car can't drive to Dallas. No, the car can't, only the driver can. The car is just a tool the driver uses.

But some tools have taken over and become the reason for being. The RCC structure is such a thing, as is the LCM structure.

As the saying goes, a fanatic is someone who redoubles his effort while forgetting his aim. The LCM has lost its aim.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The problem is not that men build institutions. They always have and always will. And God actually uses some. The problem is the CLAIMS they make about their institutions in order to manipulate and hold onto members and support. Both the RCC and the LCM have claimed to be God's unique church. They are not the only ones to do this and they won't be the last. But this is where the real problem lies because this is infringing on the consciences of believers.

For me personally, having lived the LC experience through good and bad times, these verses are the most definitive and instructive ...

When the disciples heard this, they became indignant with the two brothers. But Jesus called them all over and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and the men of high position exercise power over them. It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life -- a ransom for many." (Matt 20)

Like Igzy said, human institutions are in themselves benign, they can be used for good or for evil. What distinguishes the results are the leaders. Do they serve, or do they lust for power? God Himself is very forgiving of these human institutions. History tells us that they have been used for great good, and unfortunately, for great evil. Jesus Himself never advocated for us to become activists for social change, rather He regularly (throughout scripture indeed) instructed shepherds and leaders how to serve His people.

I think if we investigated every failure of LCM leadership over the decades we would find, not readily understandable happenstance mistakes, but at their source a lust for power and control. This is what so damages God's people. The very things that the Lord repeatedly warned us about.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think if we investigated every failure of LCM leadership over the decades we would find, not readily understandable happenstance mistakes, but at their source a lust for power and control. This is what so damages God's people. The very things that the Lord repeatedly warned us about.

And, to get back on point a bit, that's what Jezebel represents: an abuse of power. Jezebel claimed to be someone speaking for God. If she was in the mold of the OT Jezebel, which I'm sure she was, she used seductive means to manipulate people.

All these imaginings in this thread of who or what specifically Jezebel is (RCC, US govt) seem beside the point, which is don't be seduced by manipulative teachers and leaders. Well, what's more manipulative than suggesting that one's ministry is indispensable for the completion of God's purpose and that those who ignore it are risking judgment? That's about as seductively manipulative as you can get. That's Jezebel.

This is why I always come back to the freedom of the conscience. Javertical and Drake like to repeat that "you can't have any old meeting," which, by the way, is the fallacy of the appeal to extremes. No one argues for "any old" anything. But what they are really against is anything but what they approve of, which rather than "any old thing" is actually "most things."

But the fact is, yes, just about any meeting sincerely in the name of the Lord will do. And neither Javertical or Drake are qualified or authorized to say otherwise. For them to say they are is to fall into the sin of Jezebel.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God Himself is very forgiving of these human institutions. History tells us that they have been used for great good, and unfortunately, for great evil.

Cases in point: The Bible clearly says that governments are instituted by God to keep order.

And Jesus gave the Pharisees credit for "sitting in the seat of Moses" and he told the Jews "to do what they tell you but not what they do." So Jesus knew that there would be religious leaders and that they would preach the word.

What he was saying was see the difference between the truth they teach and how they behave. In other words, as always, have a discerning conscience, don't be manipulated.

Unfortunately, allowing yourself to be manipulated is practically a membership requirement in the LCM. And manipulation is the calling card of Jezebel.

Jezebel, being a vain woman, surely expected nothing but praise from followers. LCM leaders are the same, which is why LCMers never criticize them. Thus are they manipulated by Jezebel.

In "fallen Christianity" however, members have the freedom to realize "this leader is a Jezebel" and follow their consciences and leave. The "uplifted LCM" doesn't allow this though. They empower Jezebel as much as possible, and members that leave are considered traitors to the lovely and perfect "lady."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In "fallen Christianity" however, members have the freedom to realize "this leader is a Jezebel" and follow their consciences and leave. The "uplifted LCM" doesn't allow this though. They empower Jezebel as much as possible, and members that leave are considered traitors to the lovely and perfect "lady."

This is a very interesting point. I imagine it wasn't always this way. Perhaps Ohio or someone who knows church history very well can explain this. What happened? We know that the Catholic church at the time of Martin Luther made it very difficult to leave, almost impossible. But was it the same for the denominations? What happened to loosen their grip?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is a very interesting point. I imagine it wasn't always this way. Perhaps Ohio or someone who knows church history very well can explain this. What happened? We know that the Catholic church at the time of Martin Luther made it very difficult to leave, almost impossible. But was it the same for the denominations? What happened to loosen their grip?

I grew up in the Catholic church 50 years ago. I remember the assumption was if your weren't Catholic you couldn't "go to heaven." I'm not sure what the official stance was, but that was a general assumption. But I think most people in their hearts knew there was someone wrong with such a idea. I had protestant friends. One time I went to my friend's Baptist church. It was strange and different, but I still felt it was valid. But in general there was more separation and less fellowship between denominations.

All that has changed. What changed? I think the Lord has just been working. Also, people are smarter and biblical knowledge has much improved. Tolerance is much more appreciated these days, and snobbery is more looked down on. both culturally and spiritually. I think it has just reached a critical mass where if you push your flavor of Christianity too much you are seen as sectarian. In short people just want Jesus Christ now, they want a theology that teaches them how to walk with God and they want a community which is loving and supportive.

The LCM, for all its superficial talk about oneness, is behind the times. This is due to several factors: (1) an intransigent ecclesiology they can't question, (2) a need to feel special and (3) a realization that if they ever admit it's okay to leave their little enclave that people will flock away in droves.

So they continue to employ the wiles of Jezebel to cajole and scare people into staying. It's the only way they can keep the numbers up.

[UntoHim]

Ok guys, I think it's time to put miss Jezebel to bed. ZNP and Evangelical, if you want, go ahead and make some closing statements.
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