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[Truth]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO Witness Lee does not have a qualified successor. His status, esteem and accomplishments within the LC system context cannot be matched by anybody. The Anaheim Politburo is led by former editorial clerks who are very good at repeating Witness Lee messages and not much else. Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there. Dong Yu Lan's influence is more or less limited to Brazil and other parts of South America.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance and neither could Dong Yu Lan. The Anaheim Politburo can because they are attached to LSM and just keep repeating whatever Witness Lee said. None of them alone could do it and collectively if they ever venture out past their Witness Lee repetition process I'm sure whatever status they enjoy will diminish quickly.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system. Not that he could not literally be replaced by others but he did not raise up and cultivate or bring in leaders that could do what he could do.

Yep, I agree.

[OBW]

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

Well said, Ohio.

The positive aspects of WL's ministry is enjoyable. Whenever I shared some of it with my Christian friends, they were also helped and impressed.

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

Nigel Tomes wrote a great article about the Moravian Brethren after Zinzendorf passed away and the exclusive Plymouth Brethren after James Taylor passed away. To their credit the Moravian Brothers acknowledged the faults and shortcomings of Zinzendorf's ministry, rejected them, and the Lord continued to bless them. The Taylor Brethren refused to fess up to any wrongdoing, however, since after all, he was the Oracle of God, His Anointed Servant, which we all know cannot error.

[OBW]

I can buy "immensely talented leader." He had just about everything he needed to take people wherever he wanted. And it was despite the initial turn-off of trying to understand his heavily accented English

As for minister, it depends on whether it is important that his ministry be useful to anyone. And after much consideration, I have concluded that the only truly positive portions of his ministry were available elsewhere. So he could only be, as you said, a minister in a sea of ministers.

Never the minister. The things for which he was granted MOTA status are, for me, at best questionable. Which leaves me wondering why I would choose to wade through the questionable to discover what I could get off the shelf at Lifeway. Given time and scrutiny, we might find something somewhat unique of value.

But I think the most valuable thing of the LRC was the people and just getting out of the then-deadness of Christianity. Something that much of Christianity would do for itself just a little while later. Lee would say that it was just them learning from him. But that was wishful thinking. Most never heard of him. Only a few heard of Nee and they didn't really know much about him.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

Agreed. Personally I immensely appreciated The Practical Expression of the Church and Christ Versus Religion.
Truth, when you speak of a "Kosher" LSM radio program, do you mean to say something that is diluted to the extent it's content would be acceptable and not along the lines what I heard last Sunday morning?
The first being non-LSM churches being referred to as denominations.
The second a comment attributed to Benson last Friday night when speaking about the "One New Man" using a Korean church meeting in Anaheim next to the LSM campus as an example what the "One New Man" is not. True, if your assembly is tailored towards a certain langauge, Christians would be excluded who do not speak nor understand that particular "langauge". When I've heard of the ministry being referred to as a language, I think of how the early part of Witness Lee's ministry used to be. It used to be a general ministry for all believers. Not so anymore. What I have observed the ministry is for believers who have an aptitude for the lanaguage of the ministry.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

What I have observed the ministry is for believers who have an aptitude for the lanaguage of the ministry.

Yes, this relates more to WL's later ministry. Instead of using words commonly understood by most people, WL uses a lot of jargon. Words like "Processed Consumated seven-fold intensifed Life-giving Spirit" are thrown around a lot (especially with the "high peak" truths). When you speak these words, you are "in". If you don't, you feel left out. Again I'm speaking more of what happens at the 7-feasts. In individual LCs and small home groups, this is not necessarily the case.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Yes, this relates more to WL's later ministry. Instead of using words commonly understood by most people, WL uses a lot of jargon. Words like "Processed Consumated seven-fold intensifed Life-giving Spirit" are thrown around a lot (especially with the "high peak" truths). When you speak these words, you are "in". If you don't, you feel left out.

My wife and I used to regularly stay with a couple near Anaheim for the annual trainings. He was a computer professional, and all of us first contacted the Recovery in the early 70's. Gradually he reached the point where he felt grossly inferior because all the young people in the trainings could spew out high peak jargon so effortlessly. He got convinced that the Lord's move was wrapped up in the new language, so he contemplated quitting his job to attend the FTTA. This was in the late 90's, the last time I went out to Aneheim.

Looking back, how sad is that. Brother in the prime of life feels useless and deficient because college kids enunciate long-winded Lee-isms to a glowing audience. How many other precious brothers arrived at the same conclusions?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

Truth, when you speak of a "Kosher" LSM radio program, do you mean to say something that is diluted to the extent it's content would be acceptable and not along the lines what I heard last Sunday morning?.

When I say "kosher", I mean the negative (condemning) part of the ministry is purposely left out. For example when they go through the Life-study of Revelation, they will leave out the part where WL says "Protestantism is demonic". Just listen to the LSM radio program, and you will understand what I mean. The broadcast archives are all here: http://www.lsmradio.com/rad_archives.html

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

When I say "kosher", I mean the negative (condemning) part of the ministry is purposely left out. For example when they go through the Life-study of Revelation, they will leave out the part where WL says "Protestantism is demonic". Just listen to the LSM radio program, and you will understand what I mean. The broadcast archives are all here: http://www.lsmradio.com/rad_archives.html

Thanks. It was the unchecked "negative" part why I withdrew from meeting with the LC in my town.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

The second a comment attributed to Benson last Friday night when speaking about the "One New Man" using a Korean church meeting in Anaheim next to the LSM campus as an example what the "One New Man" is not. True, if your assembly is tailored towards a certain language, Christians would be excluded who do not speak nor understand that particular "language".

And to make that kind of statement is the ultimate in stupidity. Then every meeting in America that is in English excludes anyone who does not know English. That is what would happen to me if I went to any kind of church meeting in Mexico. But according to Benson, I would be excluding if I found some other non-Spanish speaking Americans in Guadalajara and held a meeting each week while on assignment there. (This has never happened for me.)

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

[OBW]

And and add-on. It is hard to believe that there is not something screaming within many who heard Benson say this declaring it to be wrong. But way too many of them are accustomed to labeling that as Satan's attack. Or are too invested to do anything about it. Or have assumed that accepting some amount of nonsense is par for the course.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

And to make that kind of statement is the ultimate in stupidity. Then every meeting in America that is in English excludes anyone who does not know English. That is what would happen to me if I went to any kind of church meeting in Mexico. But according to Benson, I would be excluding if I found some other non-Spanish speaking Americans in Guadalajara and held a meeting each week while on assignment there. (This has never happened for me.)

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

What is particularly odd to me about Benson's teaching is it directly contradicts a practice set up by Witness Lee: separate Chinese-speaking meetings with their own set of elders, etc. I'm not sure if this is still the way the LC system operates but if it is at minimum his remarks are hypocritical.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

Astute observation.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

This is the LC way as taught by Witness Lee who used inflammatory remarks to purposely cause his listeners to get stirred up against an imaginary enemy i.e. all Christians in "Babylon".

And there could be yet another reason: there is "Korean-speaking" meeting under the umbrella of The Church in Anaheim (or elsewhere) and perhaps some there and maybe the leaders of that meeting are getting a little too independent for Benson's liking so he is using the Korean Church next door example as the subtext but is really talking to them and everyone else about them. Ahh...but that is mere speculation. Such things were never done in the LC!

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

I agree. You'll note I mentioned within the LC system context. Outside of that limited world he was not well-received or respected because he was arrogant and exclusive towards others. Also as Ohio indicated some of his teachings were extreme or I would add: at minimum the way he communicated them was extreme.