How Can This Forum Improve?

I want to offer a heartfelt response to this question, to unburden something the Lord Himself has given me to speak.

Untohim, I know what the intent of your ministry here is, and I know you see that your vision has not entirely been met here. I understand where your heart is, and I know that you are well aware of the mountain of resistance you face within the individuals still within the LRC to hearing anything people here - people who have left the LRC - have to say. You might say, it takes a genuine miracle of God to open the eyes and the stopped up ears of people still within the LRC. And that statement itself is not an exaggeration, it is in fact entirely accurate.

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Human words, even genuine testimonies, published novels and cold-hard rational facts and evidence won't accomplish what I know you truly desire: Revival. Fellowship. Cleansing. Freedom for those for whom you obviously love and care.

If you really want to grow this ministry - to make it the effective outreach you sense it must become - then you don't need to dress it up. You don't need to make it easier to navigate for the tech savvy. You need to open it up.

There is a story I'm sure most of us have heard - about how the bankers taught their employees to recognize counterfeit currency by locking them in a room for 10 days and letting them handle nothing but the genuine article. They taught their people to identify fakes not by letting them handle fakes, but by letting them handle the real deal so much that the fakes, when they did encounter them, were obvious.

People in the LRC think they are fat with "life" - but those of us who made it through know exactly what they've been eating - and they're starving. Untohim, they need to be fed. They think they've been feasting on the meat of the "high-peak gospel", but they need the pure milk of the Word. They need the REAL Gospel. They need to see Christ as He truly is, and when they do, they will listen. He will beckon His own, the real sheep will know His voice. Do you love Him, Untohim? Then feed His Sheep.

This Forum should not be just for members and ex-members. It should have within it a welcoming element of common fellowship to ALL members of the Body of Christ. It should reach out to and embrance Brothers and Sisters everywhere. Should it minister specifically to the people who are in and who have left the LRC? Certainly brother, that's your burden - the Lord Himself gave it to you. But it's focus ought to be on the Word of God, by the hearing of which all men may be saved.

If you open it up in such a way, then brothers and sisters in Christ who do not know anything about the LRC will become aware of it. That awareness is valuable, because it may be that the Lord will put it on the hearts of His people to pray for those caught within the LRC. It may be, that this awareness with innoculate the innocent who may be otherwise caught up in it, and it may be that those still within it will finally listen and understand that you are hear not to corrupt and defile them, but out of a genuine love for them. That you, that we, are nothing to fear - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is far bigger than they have ever been taught He was.

Pray about it, Untohim.


Peace brother,

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you really want to grow this ministry - to make it the effective outreach you sense it must become - then you don't need to dress it up. You don't need to make it easier to navigate for the tech savvy. You need to open it up.

This Forum should not be just for members and ex-members. It should have within it a welcoming element of common fellowship to ALL members of the Body of Christ. It should reach out to and embrance Brothers and Sisters everywhere. Should it minister specifically to the people who are in and who have left the LRC? Certainly brother, that's your burden - the Lord Himself gave it to you. But it's focus ought to be on the Word of God, by the hearing of which all men may be saved.

If you open it up in such a way, then brothers and sisters in Christ who do not know anything about the LRC will become aware of it. That awareness is valuable, because it may be that the Lord will put it on the hearts of His people to pray for those caught within the LRC. It may be, that this awareness with innoculate the innocent who may be otherwise caught up in it, and it may be that those still within it will finally listen and understand that you are hear not to corrupt and defile them, but out of a genuine love for them. That you, that we, are nothing to fear - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is far bigger than they have ever been taught He was.

I concur. Our discussion is and should be about God's salvation in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, revealed in His word. Many of us have been through the Lord's Recovery churches and teachings, and our discussion often reflects that. But this forum could be bigger than "disaffected ex-members".

We are Christians first and foremost, and the discussion of our christian journeys should not be limited to that part of our journey which was unhealthily obsessed with the teachings of one man.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

I concur. Our discussion is and should be about God's salvation in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, revealed in His word. Many of us have been through the Lord's Recovery churches and teachings, and our discussion often reflects that. But this forum could be bigger than "disaffected ex-members".

We are Christians first and foremost, and the discussion of our christian journeys should not be limited to that part of our journey which was unhealthily obsessed with the teachings of one man.

Generally I agree with this but think there are plenty of websites out there discussing God's salvation, etc. There are only a few discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the LC to counter the lopsided LC cheerleaders who have populated the web with dozens if not hundreds of websites promoting their church, LSM and Witness Lee.

If anything IMHO the expansion of this website's reach could be to Christians leaving or having already left toxic unhealthy totalitarian churches of any sort who need help from those who have gone through the ringer and lived to tell the tale. BTW, that's a lot of people!

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Generally I agree with this but there are plenty of websites out there discussing God's salvation, etc. There are only a few discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the LC to counter the lopsided LC cheerleaders who have populated the web with dozens if not hundreds of websites promoting their church, LSM and Witness Lee.

Regarding what I underlined: discussing "God's salvation, etc" in what context? Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place. If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative. If we can't find one, or one can't find us, then our discussions are relegated to the fringe of the fringe.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

If anything IMHO the expansion of this website's reach could be to Christians leaving or having already left toxic unhealthy totalitarian churches of any sort who need help from those who have gone through the ringer and lived to tell the tale. BTW, that's a lot of people!

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Just thinking aloud; my thoughts here obviously bearing no more weight than anyone else's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion...

This is why, for example, I found the idea of "hierarchy" in church settings so interesting: it highlighted the contrast between the teachings and example of Jesus (to be the greatest, be the least) with actual practices and teachings in our respective organizations, Lee's Recovery Church included.

To me it represented an actual learning moment which transcended "local church discussions".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This is why, for example, I found the idea of "hierarchy" in church settings so interesting: it highlighted the contrast between the teachings and example of Jesus (to be the greatest, be the least) with actual practices and teachings in our respective organizations, Lee's Recovery Church included.

To me it represented an actual learning moment which transcended "local church discussions".

One time I was told that a factoid is something repeated so often, that it is accepted as fact, as truth. That was an "aha" moment for me, as I was leaving the LC. Hierarchy, or lack thereof, was one such LC "factoid." We constantly stated that there was no hierarchy in the Recovery, that we were all just "brothers," but, of course, we all knew that some brothers were more "brother" than all other brothers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hierarchy, or lack thereof, was one such LC "factoid." We constantly stated that there was no hierarchy in the Recovery, that we were all just "brothers," but, of course, we all knew that some brothers were more "brother" than all other brothers.

Like "Animal Farm". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. James chapter 2 had it right, I think: "Why do some of you brothers get a special chair at the front of the meeting?" What is your organizational mindset as you arrange yourselves? Is it of earth, or of heaven?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative.

For many escape from the LC or any other such church is a very compelling narrative and interestingly enough some would say a break from all things "spiritual" including talk about God was a necessary stepping stone. Within the context of their own life they had to discover the distinction between the true God who is actually interested in them and their life vs. the god of the group who requires sacrifice for the sake of the group at all costs while their own identities and personalities are rendered insignificant.

Originally Posted by aron

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Of course it references Jesus Christ but not as a mere reference or talking point but rather a person in relationship with the ex-member as an individual human being in the nitty gritty context of their real lives. If the LC taught us anything it's that quantity of talking about God does not equal a quality relationship with Him. May I suggest the leaving of any church like the LC is not just about discovering who God really is but also discovering your own humanity.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place.

I understand what you are saying. But at some level I am not sure that there is not a propensity for certain people to be more easily attracted to certain kinds of things, and others to other kinds of things. And sometimes, it is the fact that it is "different" that is the attraction. For the "seeking" Christian, anything that is not where I am might be attractive. And the more different from what I have seen before the greater the attraction.

Acknowledging that there are those whose sojourn in the LRC was by birth, or because they were with their spouse/family, most of us were looking for something more meaningful than what we were getting at the time in our various places. And, like I mentioned earlier, if you managed to come in contact with the LRC, there was an appeal due to the community. So if you didn't hear anything too radical too quickly, you got desensitized to the extremes in stages — like the frog in the kettle.

And while I do not simply say that the appealing things were wrong (they certainly were not for the most part), our propensity now is too often to use our experience with the LRC as a benchmark for anything Christian. After much consideration of the erroneous teachings, and the ways that even the culture allowed things to go awry, I am quite done with the LRC experience benchmark.

The feelings do not change the facts (a line from a supplement song). The song's follow-on was always "Jesus is Lord of all." And that is true. But the feelings also do not make things right. The camaraderie of the community does not overcome the poisonous teachings against our Christian brothers and sisters.

And if you can find the camaraderie and "feeling" in a wholesome environment, that is great. But that is not the goal of Christian fellowship. Or of the church. It is the propagation of the gospel and the building up of the believers. And the building up of the believers is not just church stuff. Or "spiritual" stuff. It is the change in lives in the "marketplace" — the mall, neighborhood, parks, at work, etc. And the change in lives is not exuberance. Or a lot of "calling on the Lord" — although that can happen. It surely is not in learning better and better teachings while using a more and more bizarre lexicon.

On the whole, a fairly sizable group of good Christians have been tricked into giving their lives to propagate a ministry. To defend separation from other Christians — and the denigration of those Christians.

One of our former participants here is still enamored with what he learned from "The Experience of Life." But if it does not change anything but our religious experience, I don't think it is the "life that is really life." That life changes everything, not just spiritual stuff. It doesn't just affect our worship and meetings. It affects our interaction with everyone. Even the heathen.

And if the fruit that James talks of is not found, it is not true faith or belief. And despite Lee's claims otherwise, I believe that reading Paul actually comes to the same conclusion — just in a different way.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Let me start by saying that it is true that only God can wake the dead. Only God can open the eyes of our hearts.

But He does not generally do it directly. There are ways that He works through circumstances and through our words and deeds. I may get chastised a little for this, but when it says that the Word does not return void, I believe that there is some requirement that it actually be the Word, and not just some words that happen to be arranged in the same order as those found in scripture. If they are intentionally read wrong, misinterpreted, etc., then what is being taken in is not actually the Word.

I do not suppose that my feeble attempts at pointing to what I think is correct interpretation or reading makes it into the Word. But I do believe that if we do not speak, then only the "dumb idol" version of the words will be found in some cases. But if we speak concerning what is really there, then the words can become Word within the reader/listener. Given the number of times that I have seen die-hard LRC members scoff at the obvious and return with absolutely ridiculous readings of scripture, I do not presume that it is simply a matter of logic and intelligence. It still takes God. But, like the poor bankrupt guy who couldn't believe that God wouldn't let him win the lottery to pay off his bills, sometimes we have to cooperate and "buy a ticket." In this case, speak up. Put the sound arguments in front of them. Give the Spirit more than a miracle to work with.

Besides, scripture is not just some illogical thing that is only known in the "spirit." It speaks, even calls us to come together and reason. I realize that this was not a general statement about scripture, but I believe it is applicable. And Paul was not adverse to logic. Using examples and metaphors requires some level of logic to make a leap from picture to what is the intended meaning.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

People in the LRC think they are fat with "life" - but those of us who made it through know exactly what they've been eating - and they're starving. Untohim, they need to be fed. They think they've been feasting on the meat of the "high-peak gospel", but they need the pure milk of the Word. They need the REAL Gospel. They need to see Christ as He truly is, and when they do, they will listen. He will beckon His own, the real sheep will know His voice. Do you love Him, Untohim? Then feed His Sheep.

And at least one of the BBs openly said this in my presence many years ago (that would be in the early 80s). "We've built great fences, but the sheep are starving" (or something like that). I doubt he would say that now due to the judgment that would put on him.

But suggesting that this should just be another fellowship board is not the answer. It might bring a few more out to learn that we are not as bankrupt as they have been taught. Or will it. They will find a bunch of people who have varying progressing levels of tolerance for what the LRC teaches is "poor, poor Christianity," and even the "Whore of Babylon and her harlot daughters."

No, the only ones coming out here are coming to either combat the "evil" being said against the LRC, or those who want to learn more about what is wrong with it. Just feeding them is what the LRC has supposedly been doing. Or what they can/should be getting from intentional fellowship with people that they can actually see and speak with. Life is not just fellowship and "eating Jesus." It is living a normal life. It is also a mutual life with other Christians. It is not all of either. And every time Christians are together in some form is not necessarily a "meeting" in the sense of "church." It can be for other purposes without lowering our status as believers.

There is a time to laugh. A time to cry. A time for fellowship. A time for doctrine. A time for love and worship. A time for logic and reason.

And this forum is somewhat heavily for the last of these. Meetings of the church (in whatever form) are generally not. Neither is the time for "sweet fellowship."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadened spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

For years I wondered why things were not as we had been promised. I had nagging questions about whether we really were God's unique testimony on earth. If all that we were told was true, then why did we become so barren and stagnant? Is this the best God could do? And why did the leadership tend to destroy those who were doing well? Why so many storms and unexplained conflicts? Why? Why? Why?

Perhaps the initial work of the Holy Spirit within was to cause me to question all that I assumed to be true. I knew the Recovery had issues, but where I could I find answers? Had anyone ever left the Recovery without being judged by God? I needed to talk with someone who had successfully exited without being so "negative" that all my defenses engaged upon impact.

I definitely was not alone. The quarantine of Titus Chu seemed to awaken hundreds from varying degrees of slumber. People needed information. People needed to talk ... or listen to others talk. That's where this forum became so useful.

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

Thank you for your post, Ohio. I really appreciate your perspective on things. I like your balanced point-of-views on the LCs.

It is very true. There are many issues with the LCs as a whole under the LSM organization; however they are definitely not the worst church to join out there. Also some of the LCs individually are pretty good if the leadership within that church does not impose or over-promote LSM's conferences, trainings, etc...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Thank you for your post, Ohio. I really appreciate your perspective on things. I like your balanced point-of-views on the LCs.

It is very true. There are many issues with the LCs as a whole under the LSM organization; however they are definitely not the worst church to join out there. Also some of the LCs individually are pretty good if the leadership within that church does not impose or over-promote LSM's conferences, trainings, etc...

And I appreciate your perspective too. Not many can remain in the LC's with such candid honesty.

In my final years in the Recovery, I became uninterested in traveling to conferences in Anaheim or Cleveland. The ministry in Anaheim became quite tasteless, and the ministry in Cleveland became increasingly intolerable. I became more and more "local" in my churchlife service, seeing outside influences as more disruptive to the saints' walk. Receiving ministries from Anaheim or Cleveland were like two steps forward, and three steps backward.

When I was still serving in the LC, I would take my turn preparing to share to the church, which I really treasured and took seriously. The materials would always be the reviews of messages given in Cleveland or Anaheim HWFMR. I would struggle for days trying to find the anointing in those materials. Finally I would just go to the scriptures and the anointing inspiration would come.

Eventually the abusive ways in the Recovery had come home ... again. I fell victim more than once. Never could I obtain so much as an apology! I also saw others getting their share of abuse. My home church was no more a sanctuary, so I needed to leave, otherwise I, like you, might still have remained.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

I remember going to my mom's Catholic church about ten years ago. I was amazed to sense the presence of God there, right amongst the robes and candles and the liturgy of the Eucharist, and despite their checkered history. My sense then was that God is not bothered by strange trappings or bad history, but rather is intensely interested in hearts seeking to worship and serve him. And those were there.

So why shouldn't some LRCs, despite their checkered history and odd beliefs, experience a God who is faithful to be in the midst of those meeting in His name?

Despite our being taught to be wary of "systems," God knows that human beings gravitate toward them. Tell me of one church movement that is not in some way systematized. And if it isn't now, it will be. "Systems" were among those boogy-men we were taught to avoid. And, of course, the LRC, loathing systems, had no other choice than to deny being one, since avoiding becoming one was not an option.

[coalsoffire]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I remember going to my mom's Catholic church about ten years ago. I was amazed to sense the presence of God there, right amongst the robes and candles and the liturgy of the Eucharist, and despite their checkered history. My sense then was that God is not bothered by strange trappings or bad history, but rather is intensely interested in hearts seeking to worship and serve him. And those were there.

So why shouldn't some LRCs, despite their checkered history and odd beliefs, experience a God who is faithful to be in the midst of those meeting in His name?

Despite our being taught to be wary of "systems," God knows that human beings gravitate toward them. Tell me of one church movement that is not in some way systematized. And if it isn't now, it will be. "Systems" were among those boogy-men we were taught to avoid. And, of course, the LRC, loathing systems, had no other choice than to deny being one, since avoiding becoming one was not an option.

Awesome post! Amen!

I remember reading an introductory Buddhist book & realizing: My! Buddhism is just as systematized as Christianity! And later readings showed the misogyny of Buddhism as well. Hence my appreciation of Leonard Cohen's quote below. A quote, I might add, worthy of "pray-reading"!

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

I have lived in both Cleveland and Anaheim. In both I have seen the "true believers (in the LC)" and the "true believers(in finding Christ)."

There are many I know, even neck deep in "LSM churches" who approach their faith quite simply. Enjoyment of Christ is not just a "pill" to eat - but an engagement with their savior in their life. The "church life" is not just "speaking the same thing" etc... but rather a mutual concern over the lives of their brothers and sisters. Sure, they are exposed to the arguments around "leadership" and "oneness" and "dissenting ones." But they keep doing what they were doing before the argument arose. Seeking to find CHrist in their lives and caring for those around them.

I will add that these ones I speak of are either 1) second generation who lost their faith, but then regained it through trevail; 2) first generation who found a way of living that completely awakened them in contrast to their former life.

I do not know many second generation who haven't had a crisis of faith - wherein they had to choose their faith - who are simple in this way. Most who persist in their faith simply based on upbringing generally care very much about the "elitist" type doctrines. I was guilty of this for many years. These seem to be the most zealous ones.

This is, of course, a very broad observation - but its borne out at least in this limited experience.

Point is, if people genuinely engage with God, it may not lead them out of a flawed situation - they might just find God right there in all His multifarious wisdom and varied grace.

My great uncle was a Lutheran scholar. He once explained that he knew all the ways in which the Lutheran church was not aligned with Scripture. He would write and speak to discuss these matters. But he couldn't leave. Because that's where, he said, God wanted Him.

None of this is to say that we don't speak out concerning error or abuse. You speak it out, but perhaps judgement is for Someone else.

Just some scattered thoughts...

Thanks all for these posts. Very encouraging.

Peter

[Truth]

Thanks for your post, Peter. I feel the same way. Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ. However, that is not to say that we should not seek to find another church if the Lord leads us to do so. Bottomline is we need to remember to find Christ wherever we are and meet with the church wherever the Lord leads. But the Lord may or may not lead us to the church of our choice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ.

It is simply dishonest and unfair to categorize every member in the LC's as mindless robots following the ministry like "lemmings over the cliff." (Fortunately for us, the more dogmatic forum posters have recently gone into remission.) Generalizations are like prejudices -- they pick the worst traits of a few, and then label the whole. God is not like that. He does not look on the outward, but on the heart.

When I entered the Recovery during the 70's, there was a continual cry to "come out of her My people," based on a prophetic verse concerning Babylon. At the time, it made so much sense that all of Christianity was fallen and degraded Babylon, and only the Recovery was the true testimony of the Lord. Much of the prideful arrogance that gets exhibited in the Recovery is rooted in that cry. Personally, as I entered the Recovery, I voiced nothing but contempt for the rest of the body of Christ.

Oh how things have changed. Witness Lee never had the absolute manifest godliness and lockup on the truth that he always led us to believe. Fact is the Recovery has at least as many problems as the rest of the body of Christ, maybe more. The expressly claimed exclusiveness of God's blessing and presence was nothing more than a myth. Yes, His Spirit was often with us, but He was also with all the other congregations too -- those dreaded denominations and despised free groups.

It's amazing to think back on how that exhortation in Revelation 18.4 affected me, and not for the better. How could I condemn all the systems in Christianity and not condemn the Christians too? Witness Lee (as John Darby before him) definitely used that verse for personal gain. That teaching was so unbalanced. Perhaps I was just worse than the other brothers around me. I can never forget the time after my first Revelation Training in Anaheim that I was talking to my dear mother about destroying her idols -- eventually the brother with me started kicking me under the table to stop it.

Why did we not take our cue from all the other churches in the New Testament? They all had their problems. None was perfect. Think about what was going on in Corinth! Yet the Apostles only exhorted the believers to overcome the difficulties and not to completely forsake those churches. The answers to their problems did not lie in the severity of God to forsake them, but in His love to shepherd them to greener pastures.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why did we not take our cue from all the other churches in the New Testament? They all had their problems. None was perfect. Think about what was going on in Corinth! Yet the Apostles only exhorted the believers to overcome the difficulties and not to completely forsake those churches. The answers to their problems did lie in the severity of God to forsake them, but in His love to shepherd them to greener pastures.

It's interesting that WL always interpreted things to mean you should come to or stay in his movement.

"Come out of her my people." To what? The Recovery, of course!

Then he twisted your correct teaching above to mean that you should stay in one of his churches through thick and thin, and no matter how much like "her" they became.

A self-serving double-standard? Well, yeah. But what traction that mindset has.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's interesting that WL always interpreted things to mean you should come to or stay in his movement.

"Come out of her my people." To what? The Recovery, of course!

Then he twisted your correct teaching above to mean that you should stay in one of his churches through thick and thin, and no matter how much like "her" they became.

A self-serving double-standard? Well, yeah. But what traction that mindset has.

I found the balancing corollary of "come out of her my people" to be "In whatever situation you found yourself when you were called, in this you should remain." 1 Corinthians 7:17,24

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Human words, even genuine testimonies, published novels and cold-hard rational facts and evidence won't accomplish what I know you truly desire: Revival. Fellowship. Cleansing. Freedom for those for whom you obviously love and care.

Thanks for your input.

Though I agree with some of the things you said, I'm not sure how you can know what I highlighted above is true. How do you know we are only using "human resources?" (You seem imply that's all we are using.) You are free to speak for yourself, but how can you speak for others on this matter?

I agree that trying to spiritually enlighten without God's help is doomed to fail. But I disagree that what we are doing here is without God's help, or that it is in any way a failure.

There was a time on these forums that I felt everyone was talking and no one was praying. A lot got said (and yelled) and not much changed. I don't think that any more. For one, I'm praying a lot more.

The issue is not "human tools" versus "spiritual things." The issue or question is, has the tool--website, iPhone app, written words, skilled argumentation, gospel campaign, or whatever-- been prayed over. So whether tools like this forum or other modern devices are spiritually useful depends on the spiritual attitude of those utilizing them in ministry. But all else being equal, a good website is better than a bad one. Surely only God can wake the dead. But God can use the tools we make to do so, and the condition of those tools does matter.

But I will say this: If we all prayed two words for every one word we typed we'd see better results. If that sums up what you were saying then I wholeheartedly agree.