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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

Well said, Ohio.

The positive aspects of WL's ministry is enjoyable. Whenever I shared some of it with my Christian friends, they were also helped and impressed.

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

Nigel Tomes wrote a great article about the Moravian Brethren after Zinzendorf passed away and the exclusive Plymouth Brethren after James Taylor passed away. To their credit the Moravian Brothers acknowledged the faults and shortcomings of Zinzendorf's ministry, rejected them, and the Lord continued to bless them. The Taylor Brethren refused to fess up to any wrongdoing, however, since after all, he was the Oracle of God, His Anointed Servant, which we all know cannot error.

[OBW]

I can buy "immensely talented leader." He had just about everything he needed to take people wherever he wanted. And it was despite the initial turn-off of trying to understand his heavily accented English

As for minister, it depends on whether it is important that his ministry be useful to anyone. And after much consideration, I have concluded that the only truly positive portions of his ministry were available elsewhere. So he could only be, as you said, a minister in a sea of ministers.

Never the minister. The things for which he was granted MOTA status are, for me, at best questionable. Which leaves me wondering why I would choose to wade through the questionable to discover what I could get off the shelf at Lifeway. Given time and scrutiny, we might find something somewhat unique of value.

But I think the most valuable thing of the LRC was the people and just getting out of the then-deadness of Christianity. Something that much of Christianity would do for itself just a little while later. Lee would say that it was just them learning from him. But that was wishful thinking. Most never heard of him. Only a few heard of Nee and they didn't really know much about him.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

Agreed. Personally I immensely appreciated The Practical Expression of the Church and Christ Versus Religion.
Truth, when you speak of a "Kosher" LSM radio program, do you mean to say something that is diluted to the extent it's content would be acceptable and not along the lines what I heard last Sunday morning?
The first being non-LSM churches being referred to as denominations.
The second a comment attributed to Benson last Friday night when speaking about the "One New Man" using a Korean church meeting in Anaheim next to the LSM campus as an example what the "One New Man" is not. True, if your assembly is tailored towards a certain langauge, Christians would be excluded who do not speak nor understand that particular "langauge". When I've heard of the ministry being referred to as a language, I think of how the early part of Witness Lee's ministry used to be. It used to be a general ministry for all believers. Not so anymore. What I have observed the ministry is for believers who have an aptitude for the lanaguage of the ministry.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

What I have observed the ministry is for believers who have an aptitude for the lanaguage of the ministry.

Yes, this relates more to WL's later ministry. Instead of using words commonly understood by most people, WL uses a lot of jargon. Words like "Processed Consumated seven-fold intensifed Life-giving Spirit" are thrown around a lot (especially with the "high peak" truths). When you speak these words, you are "in". If you don't, you feel left out. Again I'm speaking more of what happens at the 7-feasts. In individual LCs and small home groups, this is not necessarily the case.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Yes, this relates more to WL's later ministry. Instead of using words commonly understood by most people, WL uses a lot of jargon. Words like "Processed Consumated seven-fold intensifed Life-giving Spirit" are thrown around a lot (especially with the "high peak" truths). When you speak these words, you are "in". If you don't, you feel left out.

My wife and I used to regularly stay with a couple near Anaheim for the annual trainings. He was a computer professional, and all of us first contacted the Recovery in the early 70's. Gradually he reached the point where he felt grossly inferior because all the young people in the trainings could spew out high peak jargon so effortlessly. He got convinced that the Lord's move was wrapped up in the new language, so he contemplated quitting his job to attend the FTTA. This was in the late 90's, the last time I went out to Aneheim.

Looking back, how sad is that. Brother in the prime of life feels useless and deficient because college kids enunciate long-winded Lee-isms to a glowing audience. How many other precious brothers arrived at the same conclusions?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

Truth, when you speak of a "Kosher" LSM radio program, do you mean to say something that is diluted to the extent it's content would be acceptable and not along the lines what I heard last Sunday morning?.

When I say "kosher", I mean the negative (condemning) part of the ministry is purposely left out. For example when they go through the Life-study of Revelation, they will leave out the part where WL says "Protestantism is demonic". Just listen to the LSM radio program, and you will understand what I mean. The broadcast archives are all here: http://www.lsmradio.com/rad_archives.html

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

When I say "kosher", I mean the negative (condemning) part of the ministry is purposely left out. For example when they go through the Life-study of Revelation, they will leave out the part where WL says "Protestantism is demonic". Just listen to the LSM radio program, and you will understand what I mean. The broadcast archives are all here: http://www.lsmradio.com/rad_archives.html

Thanks. It was the unchecked "negative" part why I withdrew from meeting with the LC in my town.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thanks. It was the unchecked "negative" part why I withdrew from meeting with the LC in my town.

I don't find that there is a lot of WL's negative/condemning ministry spoken in the LC's where there are a lot of new members. Most realize that this will drive them away.

There is some of WL's negative/condemning ministry spoken at the 7-feasts for sure. Because of this I am no longer interested in these conference/trainings. But I find that the church life in my locality very sweet. There is no atmosphere of condemnation, no feeling from the saints that they are superior over christians not in the LCs. There is just lots of enjoyment of Christ, caring for one another, and gaining new members. Sure, we mainly use WL/WN's ministry. But if a brother/sister spoke something from somewhere else, no one condemns. I wished it could be like this everywhere.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

The second a comment attributed to Benson last Friday night when speaking about the "One New Man" using a Korean church meeting in Anaheim next to the LSM campus as an example what the "One New Man" is not. True, if your assembly is tailored towards a certain language, Christians would be excluded who do not speak nor understand that particular "language".

And to make that kind of statement is the ultimate in stupidity. Then every meeting in America that is in English excludes anyone who does not know English. That is what would happen to me if I went to any kind of church meeting in Mexico. But according to Benson, I would be excluding if I found some other non-Spanish speaking Americans in Guadalajara and held a meeting each week while on assignment there. (This has never happened for me.)

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

[OBW]

And and add-on. It is hard to believe that there is not something screaming within many who heard Benson say this declaring it to be wrong. But way too many of them are accustomed to labeling that as Satan's attack. Or are too invested to do anything about it. Or have assumed that accepting some amount of nonsense is par for the course.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

And to make that kind of statement is the ultimate in stupidity. Then every meeting in America that is in English excludes anyone who does not know English. That is what would happen to me if I went to any kind of church meeting in Mexico. But according to Benson, I would be excluding if I found some other non-Spanish speaking Americans in Guadalajara and held a meeting each week while on assignment there. (This has never happened for me.)

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

What is particularly odd to me about Benson's teaching is it directly contradicts a practice set up by Witness Lee: separate Chinese-speaking meetings with their own set of elders, etc. I'm not sure if this is still the way the LC system operates but if it is at minimum his remarks are hypocritical.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What is particularly odd to me about Benson's teaching is it directly contradicts a practice set up by Witness Lee: separate Chinese-speaking meetings with their own set of elders, etc. I'm not sure if this is still the way the LC system operates but if it is at minimum his remarks are hypocritical.

Not sure if Benson's word was to support the teaching of "One New Man". My point is as many people living in the US who learned English as a second, third, or fourth languages, they will understand better if the service is spoken in their native tongue. One churches locally is Ukranian. That's not to say you're unwelcome if you visit, but the service deilvered is Ukranian. If you happen to speak Ukranian, you'll understand. Same applies if the congregations was in Spanish, Chinese, or Tagalog.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not sure if Benson's word was to support the teaching of "One New Man". My point is as many people living in the US who learned English as a second, third, or fourth languages, they will understand better if the service is spoken in their native tongue. One churches locally is Ukranian. That's not to say you're unwelcome if you visit, but the service deilvered is Ukranian. If you happen to speak Ukranian, you'll understand. Same applies if the congregations was in Spanish, Chinese, or Tagalog.

I have no problem with churches that cater to an specific ethic community. It allows people to hear the gospel and Christian teachings in a language they can readily understand. But it appears Benson has a problem with these kind of churches.

But anyway to your larger point IMHO Witness Lee never had a ministry that was "general" for all Christians. He taught the ground of locality fiercely and publicly denounced TAS when he wouldn't sign on to it. He controlled the churches by his appointment of elders that agreed with him and the removal of those that didn't. He used language and purposely provoked other Christians starting in the 1960s (at least in America). As time went on he kept the language game going until titles of his messages and outlines bordered on the ridiculous - as if he and his staff we trying to see how many multi-syllable words they can fit in a heading.

Eventually for the "average" Christian just trying to live a decent life and honor God and raise his family and do well in his career the whole thing becomes disconnected from his real world reality. (Like the computer programmer bro Ohio mentioned.) Who talks like that in real life? Who has time to get into pie-in-they-sky theological abstractions? Maybe the FTTA students and their teachers. They can have it! In my free time I'll be busy watching football and probably have a beer while I'm at it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What is particularly odd to me about Benson's teaching is it directly contradicts a practice set up by Witness Lee: separate Chinese-speaking meetings with their own set of elders, etc. I'm not sure if this is still the way the LC system operates but if it is at minimum his remarks are hypocritical.

You are right about the language hypocrisy. All foreign language churches were condemned as divisions in the body of Christ, and not a true testimony of Christ in the city. So the Anaheim Korean Church was condemned but the Korean-speaking-meetings in Anaheim were perfectly kosher. The key was to use the proper "politically-correct" terminology "Chinese-speaking" or "Korean-speaking" and God will magically bless you for being on the "proper ground."

It got a little comical during announcements. It was a "mortal" sin to just say "Chinese-meeting," so everyone was well rehearsed at saying "Chinese-speaking-meeting." After a while we would hear, "college-speaking-meetings." How weird is that? Did we really believe that all these correct "utterances" were the key to unlock Biblical blessings?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right about the language hypocrisy. All foreign language churches were condemned as divisions in the body of Christ, and not a true testimony of Christ in the city. So the Anaheim Korean Church was condemned but the Korean-speaking-meetings in Anaheim were perfectly kosher. The key was to use the proper "politically-correct" terminology "Chinese-speaking" or "Korean-speaking" and God will magically bless you for being on the "proper ground."

It got a little comical during announcements. It was a "mortal" sin to just say "Chinese-meeting," so everyone was well rehearsed at saying "Chinese-speaking-meeting." After a while we would hear, "college-speaking-meetings." How weird is that? Did we really believe that all these correct "utterances" were the key to unlock Biblical blessings?

I have never seen anything wrong with meeting as a Korean Church, Chinese Church, or Russian Church. These type of churches are necessary to meet the language needs of some Christians. If I was in China, I would do my best to join an America Church so that I can understand the services in my language. It just doesn't make sense to condemn a church for being language-based. This has nothing to do with violating the one-new man.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The key was to use the proper "politically-correct" terminology "Chinese-speaking" or "Korean-speaking" and God will magically bless you for being on the "proper ground."

It got a little comical during announcements. It was a "mortal" sin to just say "Chinese-meeting," so everyone was well rehearsed at saying "Chinese-speaking-meeting."

LOL!

There was always a loophole around the ground of locality clause in the LC's canon law. Separate meetings, separate Lord's Tables, separate administrations based on language = OK if we do it but not the people next door at the Korean Church - they're obviously "not clear" about the ground.

Then there was always the loophole around having 2 or 3 or more LCs in one city because of divisions. Which one is the genuine article? Ask the Anaheim Politburo - they will put their stamp of approval on the real one. The rest are fakes...I guess? (Not that there's a headquarters or anything.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

Astute observation.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am having a hard time believing that Benson actually is stupid enough to believe what he said. It is beginning to look more and more like he is intentionally creating a divide with statements he can hardly help but know are inflammatory and false.

This is the LC way as taught by Witness Lee who used inflammatory remarks to purposely cause his listeners to get stirred up against an imaginary enemy i.e. all Christians in "Babylon".

And there could be yet another reason: there is "Korean-speaking" meeting under the umbrella of The Church in Anaheim (or elsewhere) and perhaps some there and maybe the leaders of that meeting are getting a little too independent for Benson's liking so he is using the Korean Church next door example as the subtext but is really talking to them and everyone else about them. Ahh...but that is mere speculation. Such things were never done in the LC!

[Peter Debelak]

In the midst of the "fermentation" of the split with the GLA, a blog got created (lordsarmy.xanga.com) which spit vitriole regarding the GLA leaders and which were parrots for Witness Lee.

I engaged with this blog because there were a lot of young people reading and attempting to learn about the tumult from it.

At one point someone asked why the vast majority of the "increase" in the local church were chinese. This set off a fire-storm of response. "there is no jew nor greek," and so on...

There was an utter lack of desire for self-reflection.

This was my feeble attempt to enter the foray:

It seems that on this site everyone is either in extreme attack mode or extreme defensive mode (which, in turn, becomes attack mode). That is understandable given the nature of the discussions at hand. However, recognizing that we all may be overly sensitive and may (possibly) read more into people's words than are meant, I would hope that we could take a step back in an effort to give one another the benefit of the doubt.

The discussion at hand is a precarious one. On one hand, in the one new man, there is no Jew and there is no Greek. (Col. 3:11). There is only Christ who is all in all. The Lord is Lord of all, with abounding riches for all who call on Him (Rom 10:12). On the other hand, when preaching the gospel, Paul became "all things to all men" in order to reach unbelievers with the gospel of Christ. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 9. He became a Jew to reach the Jews. He lived under the law to reach those who lived under the law. He became weak to reach the weak. He quoted Greek poets when speaking to the philosophers in Athens. (Acts 17) He had Timothy circumcised when traveling into Jewish regions because Timothy's father was a Greek. (Acts 16).

Yes, it is true that the gospel is just Christ Himself. But we should not say that as a slogan "We must preach Christ alone" in retort to those who would use "methods" or "culture" to reach people. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul was being extremely practical, not simply speaking "high truths." When he said he became all things to all men, it was a practical statement. He compares preaching the gospel to the training of an athlete. His "methods" were so that his preaching wasn't mere "shadowboxing." The phrase, "the gospel is just Christ Himself" is a true one, but if we are not reaching people, we might be "shadowboxing." What we think is "just Christ" may actually be our own unexamined practices, habits or culture.

As a little example, one friend I brought to a meeting (indeed, a diverse one!), said at the end: "The most amazing thing is that the whole group has the exact same intonation when they speak or read!" And its kind of true. Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time in our meetings (and especially the second generation) will know exactly when to pause in prayer for that "amen" from the group, they will be in perfect sync with eachother on where to pause when reading together, and so on... This is, of course, a stupid little example. I bring it up to note that we often pick up practices and preferences that are habits and cultural and which may or may not be "just Christ."

So, the question is this: is it even possible that we have certain unexamined habits or preferences that appeal to one cultural group more than another cultural group, which habits or preferences are more than "just Christ"??? Paul's example is that different practices, demeanor's or approaches will appeal to one group more than another. On one hand, we should seize on this fact in order to reach EVERYONE!!! On the other hand, we should be cautious of this fact and ask the Lord to expose our hearts and our unexamined assumptions about our own habits, preferences and practices - individually and as a group - that He might expose us where we may be turning some away by those unexamines practices and habits. Sometimes, what we assume is "just Christ" can be more than that. We should take a humbled position before the Lord, who is the Author and Perfector of faith. Any single cultural practice or preference (and I don't just mean racial culture) can be "worldly" in one context, "of Christ" in another context, and "neither here nor there" in yet another. They can be hinderances to Christ and they can be useful for the gospel. It depends on their source. And here's a tip: if you don't examine whether certain practices or habits (which we all have, including as a whole group - if you deny this, you're lying to yourself) are of our preference or whether they are of Christ, then you have no idea what their source is... A little examination (done in humility and love toward one another) under the Lord's light is ALWAYS in order...

Maybe we can all step back a bit and have a less black-and-white discussion (no pun intended).

In Love,

Peter

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

At one point someone asked why the vast majority of the "increase" in the local church were chinese. This set off a fire-storm of response. "there is no jew nor greek," and so on...

Perhaps because the leader of the Recovery is Chinese? Believe it or not, the leader has a huge influence on the culture of the group he/she leads.