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[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Behind the scenes, Titus did regularly belittle the Blendeds. Besides WL, Titus never had a good thing to say about anyone in Anaheim. I heard him refer to some of the Blendeds as "naughty boys" and the like. All of TC's closest leaders were basically "poisoned" against the Blendeds. He had been sowing seeds of distrust long before WL passed away.

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

By the way, all was much more obvious and known earlier among the Chinese speaking than among the English speaking. I knew all about his dislike of the Blendeds way BEFORE WL passed away.

In a sense, Titus totally deserved the quarantine. He wanted it. He knew it would come. He just didn't know when. He wanted to do his own work. He wanted to be separated from the Blendeds. I'm mentioning this because a lot of saints paint Titus as innocent. Poor Titus, he was quarantined! But they don't see that he spoke negatively against the BB behind their backs at least 10-20 years before the quarantine. He knew what he was doing when he made Cleveland his headquarters, just like WL and the BB made Anaheim their headquarters. I'm not justifying the BB's actions (that's a different story altogether). But for this post, I'm focusing in on Titus.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

By the way, all was much more obvious and known earlier among the Chinese speaking than among the English speaking. I knew all about his dislike of the Blendeds way BEFORE WL passed away.

In a sense, Titus totally deserved the quarantine. He wanted it. He knew it would come. He just didn't know when. He wanted to do his own work. He wanted to be separated from the Blendeds. I'm mentioning this because a lot of saints paint Titus as innocent. Poor Titus, he was quarantined! But they don't see that he spoke negatively against the BB behind their backs at least 10-20 years before the quarantine. He knew what he was doing when he made Cleveland his headquarters, just like WL and the BB made Anaheim their headquarters. I'm not justifying the BB's actions (that's a different story altogether). But for this post, I'm focusing in on Titus.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

From the beginning I have said that all the backbiting leading up to and including the quarantine had nothing to do with the truths of the Bible. It was just a power struggle for control of the Recovery.

Titus Chu loved to portray himself around the world as the only brother under WL not playing politics, but the way he handled the John Ingalls quarantine proved otherwise. He knew John personally, and knew that all the conspiracy / rebellion talk was utter nonsense, and he knew that John had some very legitimate concerns about LSM and its management. Titus awas well aware of the character (or lack thereof) of Phillip Lee, and that one of the molested sisters was from the Cleveland area. Yet he played the hypocrite, signed that letter by Benson, and betrayed John Ingalls and all the other brothers who stuck their necks out for righteousness' sake.

Regarding the backstabbing rhetoric leading up to the quarantine, you are right that Titus knew what he was doing, but he also thought that many more brothers would support him. I'm sure of that. I doubt that he ever imagined Benjamen Chen in NYC would side with the Blendeds against him. He never thought Bill Barker and Jim Reetske in Chicago would flip-flop their support, since they were always on board against the Blendeds. He also expected more support in the Far East, especially Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and S. Korea.

[Truth]

"Power struggle for control in the Recovery" was the exact phrase I was looking for. WL here is likened to the king of a kingdom. When he died, various sons (co-workers) of his wanted to be the successor. Titus was one of them.

Originally Posted by Ohio

He never thought Bill Barker and Jim Reetske in Chicago would flip-flop their support, since they were always on board against the Blendeds.

Anyone have any insight on what happened there?

A brother in faith

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone have any insight on what happened there?

A brother in faith

I heard (read on the forum?) from David Canfield that Titus Chu severely rebuked Bill Barker in a leaders' meeting in front of others. It was something, I think, related to the Spanish speaking work in the Chicago area, and probably something Titus should never have got involved with. Bill Barker took offense, and Canfield felt that that affected his decision to switch allegiances.

The official word from Cleveland at the time of the flip-flop was that it was a "business decision." Chicago had a huge mortgage from the expansion of their meeting hall, with one of the goals to host huge conferences for Titus to speak at. At least one wealthy brother threatened to leave if Chicago sided with Cleveland.

Until that decision, both Barker and Reetske were against the one publication policy. Reetske in fact declared, "brothers have died for their right to publish." LSM, in an compromise agreement to garner support, agreed to allow Reetske to continue to publish his pamphlets on numerous topics.

After that decision was made, LSM felt it had the necessary support to proceed with the quarantine. They quickly moved into numerous GLA LC's to support the "faithful" in filing lawsuits to capture church real estate assets. Also, numerous full-time workers (almost a dozen in all) and their families left greater Chicago and moved to TC-friendly LC's in the region, shoring up support in preparation for battle.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition.

Agreed! Problem is the competition. Having never been to the Great Lakes area, I have no frame of reference for Titus Chu and his ministry. My orientation is the southwest, northwest, and southern California. Gifted brothers who left wouldn't be welcome without approval from the blended brothers. Problem is their ministry. Couldn't have a competing ministry. Isn't that why "One Publication" became a pre-requisite. This is really something of the flesh. When we go and read the Book of Acts, there wasn't any competition.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

Truth, you mentioned a noteworthy point. Only in the Recovery is a brother condemned for "doing his own work, and having his own ministry." No where in the Bible or the greater body of Christ is this matter frowned upon. Being from Ohio, I was well aware of both the work of Witness Lee and the work of Titus Chu, and how they were often at odds.

Both of these brothers refused to share their "glory" with another. Both regularly attacked potential rivals with these spurious charges, as if doing what the Bible instructs is now some how a "crime" worthy of quarantine. How strange and askew was the programed mindset in the Recovery!

In the Great Lakes area this became one of those ultimate contradictions. Titus would always charge the full-time brothers to "have your own ministry," yet would add a little footnote that these ministries could not be built "using the church." What? Is only Titus allowed to build up his ministry on the backs of the saints? How hypocritical is that? Tens of thousands of volunteer labor and hundreds of thousands of saints' monies have gone into building up his ministry, but no one else can "use" the church?

What was John Myer doing that got him "discharged" from the work in the Great Lakes area? Just "doing his own work, and having his own ministry." He was just doing what Titus was doing, with one exception -- I never once heard John badmouth Titus the way Titus badmouthed everyone else.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Truth

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

This is beside my point. I acknowledge the way I wrote my post was a (partial) defense of Titus (insofar as I said he was just for "liberty" and didn't acknowledge his belittling of the BBs).

That said, my biggest concern - indeed, one of the biggest reasons I began coming to this and the previous Bereans forum - was the kind of "authority" teachings which undergirded all the arguments. These teachings on "minister of the age" and even "vision of the age" in the particular LC iteration of it - has tremendous affects on how everyday LC members interact with their God and their fellow believers. They are tremendously insidious.

One can disagree with Titus and still have extremely angsty feelings about the kinds of arguments that founded the debate. And I mean "angst" in the sense meant by Kierkegaard: The profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of fearing that one is failing his responsibility to God.

These teachings operated/operate to steal away one's responsibility to God and hand it over to others.

Long after the debate over Titus and bed-sheets, such teachings will rear their head again in context after context.

It was no accident that the first major publications from the BBs after Witness Lee's death were "The Vision of the Age" and "Leadership in the Lord's Recovery."

It was innoculation.

Peter

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

This is beside my point. I acknowledge the way I wrote my post was a (partial) defense of Titus (insofar as I said he was just for "liberty" and didn't acknowledge his belittling of the BBs).

That said, my biggest concern - indeed, one of the biggest reasons I began coming to this and the previous Bereans forum - was the kind of "authority" teachings which undergirded all the arguments. These teachings on "minister of the age" and even "vision of the age" in the particular LC iteration of it - has tremendous affects on how everyday LC members interact with their God and their fellow believers. They are tremendously insidious.

One can disagree with Titus and still have extremely angsty feelings about the kinds of arguments that founded the debate. And I mean "angst" in the sense meant by Kierkegaard: The profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of fearing that one is failing his responsibility to God.

These teachings operated/operate to steal away one's responsibility to God and hand it over to others.

Long after the debate over Titus and bed-sheets, such teachings will rear their head again in context after context.

It was no accident that the first major publications from the BBs after Witness Lee's death were "The Vision of the Age" and "Leadership in the Lord's Recovery."

It was innoculation.

Peter

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

I think the facts show this is accurate.

Many GLA leaders felt that Titus positively promoted a healthy return to the scriptures, and supported that. They saw the direction of the Blendeds to be following that of the exclusive Plymouth Brethren of old. Back in the late 90's, Titus and Jim Reetske of chicago actually visited some of the Taylor line of Brethren, and then reported on some of the strange legalisms they now promote in their sect. By implication, today's Blendeds were projected to follow their same twisted and tragic course.

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

After the divisions occurred in the aftermath of Whistler, Titus returned to his controlling ways, as was evidenced with his treatment of John Myer and others. When resisting the Anaheim Blendeds, Titus cried for basic Christian liberties like the right to use contemporary worship music and the right to publish, but with John Myer, those cries for liberty and simple respect were discarded.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

IMHO Witness Lee does not have a qualified successor. His status, esteem and accomplishments within the LC system context cannot be matched by anybody. The Anaheim Politburo is led by former editorial clerks who are very good at repeating Witness Lee messages and not much else. Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there. Dong Yu Lan's influence is more or less limited to Brazil and other parts of South America.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance and neither could Dong Yu Lan. The Anaheim Politburo can because they are attached to LSM and just keep repeating whatever Witness Lee said. None of them alone could do it and collectively if they ever venture out past their Witness Lee repetition process I'm sure whatever status they enjoy will diminish quickly.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system. Not that he could not literally be replaced by others but he did not raise up and cultivate or bring in leaders that could do what he could do.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO Witness Lee does not have a qualified successor. His status, esteem and accomplishments within the LC system context cannot be matched by anybody. The Anaheim Politburo is led by former editorial clerks who are very good at repeating Witness Lee messages and not much else. Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there. Dong Yu Lan's influence is more or less limited to Brazil and other parts of South America.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance and neither could Dong Yu Lan. The Anaheim Politburo can because they are attached to LSM and just keep repeating whatever Witness Lee said. None of them alone could do it and collectively if they ever venture out past their Witness Lee repetition process I'm sure whatever status they enjoy will diminish quickly.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system. Not that he could not literally be replaced by others but he did not raise up and cultivate or bring in leaders that could do what he could do.

Yep, I agree.

[OBW]

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system.

I have to disagree with those comments about TC. His influence in the Far East is extensive. Whether he could match WL's talents is open for debate, but he could adequately replace WL.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have to disagree with those comments about TC. His influence in the Far East is extensive. Whether he could match WL's talents is open for debate, but he could adequately replace WL.

I beg to differ on this point. The Far East is a very very large place with thousands of coworkers and elders many of them older and more experienced than Titus Chu.

Titus Chu had a limited work with some young people in Taiwan for a period of time. He also went to South Korea - sent by Witness Lee and did some limited work there. Plus later he did some work on the Mainland of China.

Apparently his work both in Taiwan and South Korea ultimately caused problems among the local leadership and coworkers. We should not forget that he would be considered like a "boy" to many especially those like Chang Wu-Chen. And the way he behaves in the GLA it should not surprise us that he became persona non grata for many key leaders in the Far East.

I could not imagine Titus Chu replacing Witness Lee anywhere but in the GLA. He does not have the stature or esteem that Witness Lee enjoyed.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

Reading about the turmoil, there were assertions by the Blended brothers Witness Lee warned them about Titus Chu while he was still alive. Considering Titus's 10 month labors had gone on for decades, how come Witness Lee never did anything about Titus Chu? Assertions as the stand by the Blended brothers, I can only quote what Ron Kangas spoke in 2007:

"Who has all the information? There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it. "

My analogy as I see what the Blended brothers wanted from Titus Chu would be like asking a skilled carpenter to reduce his work to sweeping up sawdust and scrap wood. Speaking from experience that is what an unskilled worker is asked to do.
As for Titus' supporters. Yes, I'm sure compared to the blended brothers Titus might be the most spiritually gifted in ministry. Of course you must consider many brothers who were just as gifted as Titus either left the LSM/lc or became persona non grata.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

My analogy as I see what the Blended brothers wanted from Titus Chu would be like asking a skilled carpenter to reduce his work to sweeping up sawdust and scrap wood. Speaking from experience that is what an unskilled worker is asked to do.

Many brothers did just that in order to remain a part of "God's N.T. Economy." They turned over their churches and their ministries to WL and the Blendeds to "do with them as they pleased." They got persuaded that this was pleasing to the Lord. Ones like PL wanted TC to be washing dishes in the kitchen in order "to transform him." That's what they did to Gene Ford for his "penance."

[Ohio]

Anyone else having trouble with the log in process?

Should we be logging in on the left side of the screen or the right? Is there a difference? After viewing a recent thread, it still shows bolded as if it still has unread posts.