How Can This Forum Improve?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truth

Igzy: I love much of what WN/WL's minstry teaches. However, I never said I agreed with everything in their ministry. It would take months if we were to discuss which items I agreed with and with items I disagreed with.

Yes, ideally a church should be non-denominational and embrace all ministries that are part of the NT ministry, not just one ministry. But this is hard to do in practice. When it comes to administration on which materials to use in a church, I'm sure not everyone will agree. So that is why I think it is ok if you enjoy a particular ministry and would like to pursue with those who enjoy the same ministry. I'm also ok if you would like to be part of a church that pursues multiple ministries. There is no hard rule in the bible which ministry you need to pursue. As long as the ministry helps you to love the Lord and love other Christians. And we really shouldn't divide over ministry. I don't considering meeting with a group that emphasizing on a particular ministry is divisive.

I'm not for division. But sometimes in the name of trying too hard to be one, we end up dividing, as you see in the example of LC. Being broad and tolerant of one another is the key. Don't we all believe in the same Christ?

I go along with your thoughts here. Obviously, evangelical churches are going to emphasize evangelical ministries, and so forth.

The problem comes in when you start to think that you don't need any other ministries. Now, here's fact--Benson Phillips is on record declaring that there is nothing in "Christianity" teaching (that wasn't also in Recovery teaching) that is worthwhile. In others words, he believes other churches and teachers have nothing to offer the LCs. I heard him say this kind of thing first hand.

Do you believe this? How does it make you feel that one of the main leaders of the movement you are in has such a mindset? Do you "love" it when this kind of speaking comes out of LSM?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Do you believe this? How does it make you feel that one of the main leaders of the movement you are in has such a mindset? Do you "love" it when this kind of speaking comes out of LSM?

Of course I don't love this. I don't agree with this. When I hear this kind of speaking, my brain turns off. Luckily, I don't hear this in my group meeting and in my local church. I think you hear this more when you go to the "7-feasts", which I don't attend much of anymore. I not only do not agree with forcing WL/WN's ministry on the churches, I also do not agree with elevating one's ministry above another. Who is to say one ministry is better than another? All genuine ministries are part of the same NT ministry. There should be no competition between ministries. This is ridiculous. What is the point of competing against one another? Are we not brothers and sisters? Shouldn't we be fighting against Satan instead of against one another?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truth

Of course I don't love this. I don't agree with this. When I hear this kind of speaking, my brain turns off. Luckily, I don't hear this in my group meeting and in my local church. I think you hear this more when you go to the "7-feasts", which I don't attend much of anymore. I not only do not agree with forcing WL/WN's ministry on the churches, I also do not agree with elevating one's ministry above another. Who is to say one ministry is better than another? All genuine ministries are part of the same NT ministry. There should be no competition between ministries. This is ridiculous. What is the point of competing against one another? Are we not brothers and sisters? Shouldn't we be fighting against Satan instead of against one another?

Well said, bro. I hope this kind of thinking prevails.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

There should be no competition between ministries. This is ridiculous. What is the point of competing against one another? Are we not brothers and sisters? Shouldn't we be fighting against Satan instead of against one another?

When LSM quarantined Titus Chu and Great Lakes churches supporting him, I got a little crazy about this point. We had lost sight of who our enemy was! Listen to Witness Lee and one would think that Christianity was our enemy. Talk to the Blendeds and one would think that Titus Chu and Nigel Tomes were the enemy. Our predecessors, the Plymouth Brethren, became that way also. To them, public enemy No. 1 was George Muller.

This is why I began to consider LSM the "ministry of condemnation."

[Truth]

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Truth

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

The thing that struck me the most during the recent "storm" was that no one seemed to get it if you weren't taking "sides" and yet were nevertheless disagreeing with them...

Thing is - one could not be a fan of Titus at all, at yet still disagree with the BBs. Those on the other "side" however, bought into the BBs entirely. Titus didn't make a claim that the BBs were inferior - only that they weren't "it." He didn't either make a claim that he was "it." Different ministers ministering according to the portion they were given. The fact that Titus started the 10 month labor is not a "competition" with the FTT. If time and again you see young people return from the FTT, beginning with zeal but then falling flat in the day-to-day afterwards - you might want to address that too. That does not mean the 10 month labor was the answer. But neither does it have to be seen as "competition" (that presumes a posture). It could very well just, well, trying something in light of a recognized situation.

That said - I don't hold a brief for Titus. I haven't heard him speak for close to 14 years now. Nothing I'm saying comes from any knowledge of his thoughts. They are simply "possible." Yet such "possibilities" and freedoms never seemed to be any part of the "one with the minister of the age" sort of thinking.

The difference was the absolute "one with the ministry" and oppressive stance the BBs took versus the "to each according to his conscience" stance taken by the Great Lakes brothers.

While one might take issue with Titus in particular, this point shouldn't be lost in that. And in that sense, the issue was not unlike the 1980s "storm" as regards concerns over overbearing and faith-stealing meddling of "authority doctrines".

Thoughts?

In Love,

Peter

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

The thing that struck me the most during the recent "storm" was that no one seemed to get it if you weren't taking "sides" and yet were nevertheless disagreeing with them...

Thing is - one could not be a fan of Titus at all, at yet still disagree with the BBs. Those on the other "side" however, bought into the BBs entirely. Titus didn't make a claim that the BBs were inferior - only that they weren't "it."

Behind the scenes, Titus did regularly belittle the Blendeds. Besides WL, Titus never had a good thing to say about anyone in Anaheim. I heard him refer to some of the Blendeds as "naughty boys" and the like. All of TC's closest leaders were basically "poisoned" against the Blendeds. He had been sowing seeds of distrust long before WL passed away.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Behind the scenes, Titus did regularly belittle the Blendeds. Besides WL, Titus never had a good thing to say about anyone in Anaheim. I heard him refer to some of the Blendeds as "naughty boys" and the like. All of TC's closest leaders were basically "poisoned" against the Blendeds. He had been sowing seeds of distrust long before WL passed away.

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

By the way, all was much more obvious and known earlier among the Chinese speaking than among the English speaking. I knew all about his dislike of the Blendeds way BEFORE WL passed away.

In a sense, Titus totally deserved the quarantine. He wanted it. He knew it would come. He just didn't know when. He wanted to do his own work. He wanted to be separated from the Blendeds. I'm mentioning this because a lot of saints paint Titus as innocent. Poor Titus, he was quarantined! But they don't see that he spoke negatively against the BB behind their backs at least 10-20 years before the quarantine. He knew what he was doing when he made Cleveland his headquarters, just like WL and the BB made Anaheim their headquarters. I'm not justifying the BB's actions (that's a different story altogether). But for this post, I'm focusing in on Titus.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

We're pretty much in agreement here, Truth.

Though I was exiting the program at the time of the Quarantine, I too was fairly convinced that neither side should have been supported. It was a "fist-fight" between 2 ministries, and no churches should have been dragged into it. Both sides felt they were only "standing for the truth," when actually both were again declaring "we are of men." Neither side presented an attractive alternative. Many brothers in the Great Lakes area felt Titus Chu was closer to the truths of the scripture in some regards, yet rejected him because of his over-bearing abuses of leadership.

On the positive side, many brothers were helped to be delivered from the entanglements of the Blendeds, yet once they became free, they realized that Cleveland was the same as Anaheim, and both were damaging their LC's.