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[Truth]

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Truth

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

The thing that struck me the most during the recent "storm" was that no one seemed to get it if you weren't taking "sides" and yet were nevertheless disagreeing with them...

Thing is - one could not be a fan of Titus at all, at yet still disagree with the BBs. Those on the other "side" however, bought into the BBs entirely. Titus didn't make a claim that the BBs were inferior - only that they weren't "it." He didn't either make a claim that he was "it." Different ministers ministering according to the portion they were given. The fact that Titus started the 10 month labor is not a "competition" with the FTT. If time and again you see young people return from the FTT, beginning with zeal but then falling flat in the day-to-day afterwards - you might want to address that too. That does not mean the 10 month labor was the answer. But neither does it have to be seen as "competition" (that presumes a posture). It could very well just, well, trying something in light of a recognized situation.

That said - I don't hold a brief for Titus. I haven't heard him speak for close to 14 years now. Nothing I'm saying comes from any knowledge of his thoughts. They are simply "possible." Yet such "possibilities" and freedoms never seemed to be any part of the "one with the minister of the age" sort of thinking.

The difference was the absolute "one with the ministry" and oppressive stance the BBs took versus the "to each according to his conscience" stance taken by the Great Lakes brothers.

While one might take issue with Titus in particular, this point shouldn't be lost in that. And in that sense, the issue was not unlike the 1980s "storm" as regards concerns over overbearing and faith-stealing meddling of "authority doctrines".

Thoughts?

In Love,

Peter

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

The thing that struck me the most during the recent "storm" was that no one seemed to get it if you weren't taking "sides" and yet were nevertheless disagreeing with them...

Thing is - one could not be a fan of Titus at all, at yet still disagree with the BBs. Those on the other "side" however, bought into the BBs entirely. Titus didn't make a claim that the BBs were inferior - only that they weren't "it."

Behind the scenes, Titus did regularly belittle the Blendeds. Besides WL, Titus never had a good thing to say about anyone in Anaheim. I heard him refer to some of the Blendeds as "naughty boys" and the like. All of TC's closest leaders were basically "poisoned" against the Blendeds. He had been sowing seeds of distrust long before WL passed away.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Behind the scenes, Titus did regularly belittle the Blendeds. Besides WL, Titus never had a good thing to say about anyone in Anaheim. I heard him refer to some of the Blendeds as "naughty boys" and the like. All of TC's closest leaders were basically "poisoned" against the Blendeds. He had been sowing seeds of distrust long before WL passed away.

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

By the way, all was much more obvious and known earlier among the Chinese speaking than among the English speaking. I knew all about his dislike of the Blendeds way BEFORE WL passed away.

In a sense, Titus totally deserved the quarantine. He wanted it. He knew it would come. He just didn't know when. He wanted to do his own work. He wanted to be separated from the Blendeds. I'm mentioning this because a lot of saints paint Titus as innocent. Poor Titus, he was quarantined! But they don't see that he spoke negatively against the BB behind their backs at least 10-20 years before the quarantine. He knew what he was doing when he made Cleveland his headquarters, just like WL and the BB made Anaheim their headquarters. I'm not justifying the BB's actions (that's a different story altogether). But for this post, I'm focusing in on Titus.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

By the way, all was much more obvious and known earlier among the Chinese speaking than among the English speaking. I knew all about his dislike of the Blendeds way BEFORE WL passed away.

In a sense, Titus totally deserved the quarantine. He wanted it. He knew it would come. He just didn't know when. He wanted to do his own work. He wanted to be separated from the Blendeds. I'm mentioning this because a lot of saints paint Titus as innocent. Poor Titus, he was quarantined! But they don't see that he spoke negatively against the BB behind their backs at least 10-20 years before the quarantine. He knew what he was doing when he made Cleveland his headquarters, just like WL and the BB made Anaheim their headquarters. I'm not justifying the BB's actions (that's a different story altogether). But for this post, I'm focusing in on Titus.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

From the beginning I have said that all the backbiting leading up to and including the quarantine had nothing to do with the truths of the Bible. It was just a power struggle for control of the Recovery.

Titus Chu loved to portray himself around the world as the only brother under WL not playing politics, but the way he handled the John Ingalls quarantine proved otherwise. He knew John personally, and knew that all the conspiracy / rebellion talk was utter nonsense, and he knew that John had some very legitimate concerns about LSM and its management. Titus awas well aware of the character (or lack thereof) of Phillip Lee, and that one of the molested sisters was from the Cleveland area. Yet he played the hypocrite, signed that letter by Benson, and betrayed John Ingalls and all the other brothers who stuck their necks out for righteousness' sake.

Regarding the backstabbing rhetoric leading up to the quarantine, you are right that Titus knew what he was doing, but he also thought that many more brothers would support him. I'm sure of that. I doubt that he ever imagined Benjamen Chen in NYC would side with the Blendeds against him. He never thought Bill Barker and Jim Reetske in Chicago would flip-flop their support, since they were always on board against the Blendeds. He also expected more support in the Far East, especially Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and S. Korea.

[Truth]

"Power struggle for control in the Recovery" was the exact phrase I was looking for. WL here is likened to the king of a kingdom. When he died, various sons (co-workers) of his wanted to be the successor. Titus was one of them.

Originally Posted by Ohio

He never thought Bill Barker and Jim Reetske in Chicago would flip-flop their support, since they were always on board against the Blendeds.

Anyone have any insight on what happened there?

A brother in faith

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone have any insight on what happened there?

A brother in faith

I heard (read on the forum?) from David Canfield that Titus Chu severely rebuked Bill Barker in a leaders' meeting in front of others. It was something, I think, related to the Spanish speaking work in the Chicago area, and probably something Titus should never have got involved with. Bill Barker took offense, and Canfield felt that that affected his decision to switch allegiances.

The official word from Cleveland at the time of the flip-flop was that it was a "business decision." Chicago had a huge mortgage from the expansion of their meeting hall, with one of the goals to host huge conferences for Titus to speak at. At least one wealthy brother threatened to leave if Chicago sided with Cleveland.

Until that decision, both Barker and Reetske were against the one publication policy. Reetske in fact declared, "brothers have died for their right to publish." LSM, in an compromise agreement to garner support, agreed to allow Reetske to continue to publish his pamphlets on numerous topics.

After that decision was made, LSM felt it had the necessary support to proceed with the quarantine. They quickly moved into numerous GLA LC's to support the "faithful" in filing lawsuits to capture church real estate assets. Also, numerous full-time workers (almost a dozen in all) and their families left greater Chicago and moved to TC-friendly LC's in the region, shoring up support in preparation for battle.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition.

Agreed! Problem is the competition. Having never been to the Great Lakes area, I have no frame of reference for Titus Chu and his ministry. My orientation is the southwest, northwest, and southern California. Gifted brothers who left wouldn't be welcome without approval from the blended brothers. Problem is their ministry. Couldn't have a competing ministry. Isn't that why "One Publication" became a pre-requisite. This is really something of the flesh. When we go and read the Book of Acts, there wasn't any competition.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

There is nothing wrong with doing your own work, having your own ministry. However, the way Titus was doing it by speaking negatively against the BB behind their backs, putting down their ministry... Hey, if I were the BB, I would have not been happy either.

As I said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with having your own ministry. The problem is the competition. And Titus WAS competing against the BB for supporters and loyalists. There is no doubt in my mind about that!

Truth, you mentioned a noteworthy point. Only in the Recovery is a brother condemned for "doing his own work, and having his own ministry." No where in the Bible or the greater body of Christ is this matter frowned upon. Being from Ohio, I was well aware of both the work of Witness Lee and the work of Titus Chu, and how they were often at odds.

Both of these brothers refused to share their "glory" with another. Both regularly attacked potential rivals with these spurious charges, as if doing what the Bible instructs is now some how a "crime" worthy of quarantine. How strange and askew was the programed mindset in the Recovery!

In the Great Lakes area this became one of those ultimate contradictions. Titus would always charge the full-time brothers to "have your own ministry," yet would add a little footnote that these ministries could not be built "using the church." What? Is only Titus allowed to build up his ministry on the backs of the saints? How hypocritical is that? Tens of thousands of volunteer labor and hundreds of thousands of saints' monies have gone into building up his ministry, but no one else can "use" the church?

What was John Myer doing that got him "discharged" from the work in the Great Lakes area? Just "doing his own work, and having his own ministry." He was just doing what Titus was doing, with one exception -- I never once heard John badmouth Titus the way Titus badmouthed everyone else.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Truth

Exactly! You got it right! I don't think many saints realize that Titus had been sowing seeds of distrust towards the BB among his own co-worker as much as a few years before WL passed away. In a sense, he brought the quarantine upon himself. He was testing the water to see how far he could go before the BB would do something against him openly. Titus wasn't scare. He had his own group of supporters.

This is beside my point. I acknowledge the way I wrote my post was a (partial) defense of Titus (insofar as I said he was just for "liberty" and didn't acknowledge his belittling of the BBs).

That said, my biggest concern - indeed, one of the biggest reasons I began coming to this and the previous Bereans forum - was the kind of "authority" teachings which undergirded all the arguments. These teachings on "minister of the age" and even "vision of the age" in the particular LC iteration of it - has tremendous affects on how everyday LC members interact with their God and their fellow believers. They are tremendously insidious.

One can disagree with Titus and still have extremely angsty feelings about the kinds of arguments that founded the debate. And I mean "angst" in the sense meant by Kierkegaard: The profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of fearing that one is failing his responsibility to God.

These teachings operated/operate to steal away one's responsibility to God and hand it over to others.

Long after the debate over Titus and bed-sheets, such teachings will rear their head again in context after context.

It was no accident that the first major publications from the BBs after Witness Lee's death were "The Vision of the Age" and "Leadership in the Lord's Recovery."

It was innoculation.

Peter

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

This is beside my point. I acknowledge the way I wrote my post was a (partial) defense of Titus (insofar as I said he was just for "liberty" and didn't acknowledge his belittling of the BBs).

That said, my biggest concern - indeed, one of the biggest reasons I began coming to this and the previous Bereans forum - was the kind of "authority" teachings which undergirded all the arguments. These teachings on "minister of the age" and even "vision of the age" in the particular LC iteration of it - has tremendous affects on how everyday LC members interact with their God and their fellow believers. They are tremendously insidious.

One can disagree with Titus and still have extremely angsty feelings about the kinds of arguments that founded the debate. And I mean "angst" in the sense meant by Kierkegaard: The profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of fearing that one is failing his responsibility to God.

These teachings operated/operate to steal away one's responsibility to God and hand it over to others.

Long after the debate over Titus and bed-sheets, such teachings will rear their head again in context after context.

It was no accident that the first major publications from the BBs after Witness Lee's death were "The Vision of the Age" and "Leadership in the Lord's Recovery."

It was innoculation.

Peter

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

I think the facts show this is accurate.

Many GLA leaders felt that Titus positively promoted a healthy return to the scriptures, and supported that. They saw the direction of the Blendeds to be following that of the exclusive Plymouth Brethren of old. Back in the late 90's, Titus and Jim Reetske of chicago actually visited some of the Taylor line of Brethren, and then reported on some of the strange legalisms they now promote in their sect. By implication, today's Blendeds were projected to follow their same twisted and tragic course.

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

After the divisions occurred in the aftermath of Whistler, Titus returned to his controlling ways, as was evidenced with his treatment of John Myer and others. When resisting the Anaheim Blendeds, Titus cried for basic Christian liberties like the right to use contemporary worship music and the right to publish, but with John Myer, those cries for liberty and simple respect were discarded.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

I was not impressed...with either sides. Titus's case was definitely different from John Ingalls. John had no intention of overthrowing WL. Titus clearly did not want to work with the BB. Even before the quarantine, I heard him many times make fun of the BB and FTTA. He was holding his own 9-month training (doing the same thing as the BB in the FFTA), so there was no reason why he should make fun of FTTA, unless he wanted to elevate his own work above the BB.

Anyways, I was not not impressed with either sides during the storm. Both sides and their supporters did some really nasty things to each other. At that time I knew nothing of John Ingalls's story (and others' such as John So, etc...), so I was very much on the BB side. Still, even knowing what I know today, I'm not sure if I would chose Titus over the BB. Titus has abused his authority just as much as WL and the BB.

I guess I ended up choosing neither sides. I just moved away to a locality outside of the midwest, not affected by the chaos. I'm glad I moved away. Who knows? If I didn't move away, maybe I would have fought on LSM's side and said some nasty things to the other side...and I would have regretted today. Today, I still have very good friends on both sides. If I had participated in the fight, I might have lost some of these precious friends on Titus's side.

We're pretty much in agreement here, Truth.

Though I was exiting the program at the time of the Quarantine, I too was fairly convinced that neither side should have been supported. It was a "fist-fight" between 2 ministries, and no churches should have been dragged into it. Both sides felt they were only "standing for the truth," when actually both were again declaring "we are of men." Neither side presented an attractive alternative. Many brothers in the Great Lakes area felt Titus Chu was closer to the truths of the scripture in some regards, yet rejected him because of his over-bearing abuses of leadership.

On the positive side, many brothers were helped to be delivered from the entanglements of the Blendeds, yet once they became free, they realized that Cleveland was the same as Anaheim, and both were damaging their LC's.