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[Cal]

Hi seeking1,

There was once a mission statement on the board. I helped write it. But I'm not sure where it went. fEven so, it did not go into detail about defining what is wrong with the LCM. There are various opinions about this, and hardly anyone agrees completely.

The LCM's problems all stem from violating the liberty of Christians to follow their own consciences. The LCM's severe view of spiritual authority is the root of their problems. Once unquestioned following is expected in any social situation, problems can arise from everywhere. The natural checks and balances of humbly being open to the wisdom of others are lost, and from that springs errors, heresies, abuses, isolation, etc with no natural correcting agent at play.

So the LCM has a lot of errors, but most of these would have been nipped in the bud if (1) people had been respected to believe as they see fit and (2) to come and go as they see fit.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There are various opinions about this, and hardly anyone agrees completely.

I kind of figured this,but there have to be a few key points that most of the regulars on the forum would agree with. Such as:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The LCM's problems all stem from violating the liberty of Christians to follow their own consciences. The LCM's severe view of spiritual authority is the root of their problems. Once unquestioned following is expected in any social situation, problems can arise from everywhere. The natural checks and balances of humbly being open to the wisdom of others are lost, and from that springs errors, heresies, abuses, isolation, etc with no natural correcting agent at play.

While I agree with the above statement, doesn't this also describe 99% of the churches that are out there? It is really sad that can say this kind of "matter of fact-ly" but, "Abuse of Authority" is happening everywhere.So, are there other clear-cut, wholesome points that are non-debatable within the "Local Church Discussions" community about the errors of Lee's teachings?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by seeking1

While I agree with the above statement, doesn't this also describe 99% of the churches that are out there? It is really sad that can say this kind of "matter of fact-ly" but, "Abuse of Authority" is happening everywhere.So, are there other clear-cut, wholesome points that are non-debatable within the "Local Church Discussions" community about the errors of Lee's teachings?

I think this is a very skewed view of Christianity. There are some cases of abuse of authority. They make big splashed in the news. But they are not the norm. But since we were taught that Christianity is this big bad place, we are still prone to paint the whole with the color of the one that is in the news. Just like the world loves to paint the whole with the color of the ones that appear marching in the streets hating somebody that they think is a sinner.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by OBW

I think this is a very skewed view of Christianity. There are some cases of abuse of authority. They make big splashed in the news. But they are not the norm. But since we were taught that Christianity is this big bad place, we are still prone to paint the whole with the color of the one that is in the news. Just like the world loves to paint the whole with the color of the ones that appear marching in the streets hating somebody that they think is a sinner.

OBW, I wish you were right, I really do. However, I am not speaking from the LC position of Christianity=bad and I am not referring to the cases that "make big splashes in the news". I am referring to all that I have seen and heard in my own experience.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by seeking1

I kind of figured this,but there have to be a few key points that most of the regulars on the forum would agree with. Such as:



While I agree with the above statement, doesn't this also describe 99% of the churches that are out there? It is really sad that can say this kind of "matter of fact-ly" but, "Abuse of Authority" is happening everywhere.So, are there other clear-cut, wholesome points that are non-debatable within the "Local Church Discussions" community about the errors of Lee's teachings?

The above is like saying everyone is a criminal because everyone has at one time violated a traffic law. We are talking several magnitudes of degrees of difference here. A difference in degree eventually constitutes a difference in kind.

Name one other church that systematically drills into its members the fear that if you leave it you will be outside of God's will, outside of a legitimate church, stunted in spiritual growth and probably miss the God's rewards. Even the Catholics don't really teach this kind of thing anymore. Name one other church that essentially claims that the elders of its churches are the supreme spiritual authorities in the cities they represent.

99%? Maybe .01%


Another problem with the LCM is it has no built-in means of self-correction. In fact, it has just the opposite. It has a built-in means of NOT correcting. There is no accountability for the leadership. They have the power, that's it. Trying to correct them leads to be ostracized, or worse.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The above is like saying everyone is a criminal because everyone has at one time violated a traffic law.

This is a stretch.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Name one other church that systematically drills into its members the fear that if you leave it you will be outside of God's will, outside of a legitimate church, stunted in spiritual growth and probably miss the God's rewards. Even the Catholics don't really teach this kind of thing anymore. Name one other church that essentially claims that the elders of its churches are the supreme spiritual authorities in the cities they represent.

Jehovah's Witness, Mormon's, Getfakys (or whatever the heck) Assembly, countless brands of independent protestant churches, and yes, the Catholic Church. You cannot be serious? I mean, sheesh, this stuff is going on all over the place! Ambitious men building ministries, wanting the preeminence. Drive around Cleveland, OH and you'll see "XYZ" Church meeting in a: storefront, old catholic church, old protestant church, and the leader will straight up tell that this is their show, and their the sheriff in those parts. Sure, it's all good while your on the fringes, but you start coming regularly and you better get on board or else be ostracized. One church in a storefront that I visited, I thought that I was attending a bible study but it turned out to be a 90 minute ranting and raving session for the "pastor", it was actually longer but I got up and left after 90 minutes. I think that the "pastor" felt insulted that I was leaving because when I was walking out he let out a very cold and sarcastic "thanks for coming brother".

So, like I said, I agree that the there is a some serious abuse of authority going on in the LC's but we will have to agree to disagree on exactly where on the "Abuse of Authority Spectrum" witness lee falls.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Jehovah's Witness, Mormon's, Getfakys (or whatever the heck) Assembly, countless brands of independent protestant churches, and yes, the Catholic Church. You cannot be serious? I mean, sheesh, this stuff is going on all over the place! Ambitious men building ministries, wanting the preeminence. Drive around Cleveland, OH and you'll see "XYZ" Church meeting in a: storefront, old catholic church, old protestant church, and the leader will straight up tell that this is their show, and their the sheriff in those parts. Sure, it's all good while your on the fringes, but you start coming regularly and you better get on board or else be ostracized. One church in a storefront that I visited, I thought that I was attending a bible study but it turned out to be a 90 minute ranting and raving session for the "pastor", it was actually longer but I got up and left after 90 minutes. I think that the "pastor" felt insulted that I was leaving because when I was walking out he let out a very cold and sarcastic "thanks for coming brother".

So, like I said, I agree that the there is a some serious abuse of authority going on in the LC's but we will have to agree to disagree on exactly where on the "Abuse of Authority Spectrum" witness lee falls.

If we are going to talk about abuse of authority, you have to go back to Jim Jones, David Koresh and several other really "out there" authoritarians. Not all of them are observed as so much, but they get their followers to do some really messed-up things.

And Westboro Baptist Church. But you can't point at the Baptists over it.

You mostly bring out the marginal to even questionably Christian, plus the RCC. And with the RCC, at some level they ask for the problem by thinking that inviting so many to fight their nature and then be put into positions with children or the opposite sex where they can be tempted so thoroughly. But even here, what you have is individual abuse of power, not wholesale abuse as a general pattern that is systemic.

Ambitious men will always do whatever they can to build their esteem and empire. Some will use religion. Hard to throw the Mormons in since there is such serious question as to whether they should be included within Christianity at all. And the JWs don't really accept Christ as God, so why do you want to include them. Besides, other than being quite different, what is the abuse? I haven't read anything systemic about them.

As for the RCC, it seems that the real authority thought they could nip the problem in the bud without exposing people. Do with the errant priests like they do with their parishioners. Send them to the confessionals, say a few Hail Mary's and sin no more. Let them know they were being watched. Send them to a new environment to start over. Make those affected happier by being rid of the problem. And to some extent they learned their lessons.

But even in the RCC, it is not as if the good priest was rare. Rather that the bad ones made the news.

Are you not seeing the whole of Christianity? Are you presuming that an independent assembly is simply a one-man show? Are you focused on what makes the news and nothing else? I know Cleveland is not like the Bible belt, but there are many churches. Pointing to a few is not an indictment on Christianity, but on those who fail (or fleece) those flocks.

Bernie Madoff was an investment advisor that stole millions (billions?). He was not the only swindler in the investment business. But does that make every Merrill Lynch office a bunch of thieves?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Jehovah's Witness, Mormon's, Getfakys (or whatever the heck) Assembly, countless brands of independent protestant churches, and yes, the Catholic Church. You cannot be serious? I mean, sheesh, this stuff is going on all over the place!

Here's a recent one, with a Acts 29 mega-church, that Christianity Today called one of America’s most influential megachurches:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...iscipline.html

Control, control, control ...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Here's a recent one, with a Acts 29 mega-church, that Christianity Today called one of America’s most influential megachurches:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...iscipline.html

Control, control, control ...

This one is not as simple as the article displays it. Virtually all, including those within that church, have agreed that it went badly. But it was an honest attempt to help that somehow got mired in their own self-imposed rules of how to do it that went sideways. Not saying it was a great outcome. But the splash in the press is not consistent with what really happened. But added to what had already happened to the woman, it just was a royal screw-up.

And once again, an example does not a generality make.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Jehovah's Witness, Mormon's, Getfakys (or whatever the heck) Assembly, countless brands of independent protestant churches, and yes, the Catholic Church. You cannot be serious? I mean, sheesh, this stuff is going on all over the place! Ambitious men building ministries, wanting the preeminence. Drive around Cleveland, OH and you'll see "XYZ" Church meeting in a: storefront, old catholic church, old protestant church, and the leader will straight up tell that this is their show, and their the sheriff in those parts. Sure, it's all good while your on the fringes, but you start coming regularly and you better get on board or else be ostracized. One church in a storefront that I visited, I thought that I was attending a bible study but it turned out to be a 90 minute ranting and raving session for the "pastor", it was actually longer but I got up and left after 90 minutes. I think that the "pastor" felt insulted that I was leaving because when I was walking out he let out a very cold and sarcastic "thanks for coming brother".

So, like I said, I agree that the there is a some serious abuse of authority going on in the LC's but we will have to agree to disagree on exactly where on the "Abuse of Authority Spectrum" witness lee falls.

I didn't think we were talking about heretical groups. I thought we were talking about Christian groups. Anyway, yes there are many abusive groups. But when compared to the vast majority of people in healthy churches, the numbers of people affected are a drop in the bucket. My family is Catholic so the comparisons of the LCM with Catholicism are superficial. By and large, people's souls don't get shredded when they leave the Catholic church. I meet with a men's group and several of the guys are former Catholics. They don't lay awake at night agonizing about whether God is going to judge them for leaving like LCMers do.

If I were to paint a graph, Lee would be way at the extreme on the scale. You have to measure it based on the effect the guy had brainwashing his followers into being filled with fear for going another way. Lee has to be near the top if not at the top. I speak from experience. But I'm an old-timer; things might be different with the current generation.

In general, however, saying abuse is "everywhere" is a bit misleading. It is but it effects relatively few. The vast majority of believers are in benign, unabusive situations.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Another problem with the LCM is it has no built-in means of self-correction. In fact, it has just the opposite. It has a built-in means of NOT correcting. There is no accountability for the leadership. They have the power, that's it. Trying to correct them leads to be ostracized, or worse.

That what Igzy posted is Deputy Authority teaching in application.