How Can This Forum Improve?

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Generally I agree with this but there are plenty of websites out there discussing God's salvation, etc. There are only a few discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the LC to counter the lopsided LC cheerleaders who have populated the web with dozens if not hundreds of websites promoting their church, LSM and Witness Lee.

Regarding what I underlined: discussing "God's salvation, etc" in what context? Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place. If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative. If we can't find one, or one can't find us, then our discussions are relegated to the fringe of the fringe.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

If anything IMHO the expansion of this website's reach could be to Christians leaving or having already left toxic unhealthy totalitarian churches of any sort who need help from those who have gone through the ringer and lived to tell the tale. BTW, that's a lot of people!

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Just thinking aloud; my thoughts here obviously bearing no more weight than anyone else's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion...

This is why, for example, I found the idea of "hierarchy" in church settings so interesting: it highlighted the contrast between the teachings and example of Jesus (to be the greatest, be the least) with actual practices and teachings in our respective organizations, Lee's Recovery Church included.

To me it represented an actual learning moment which transcended "local church discussions".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This is why, for example, I found the idea of "hierarchy" in church settings so interesting: it highlighted the contrast between the teachings and example of Jesus (to be the greatest, be the least) with actual practices and teachings in our respective organizations, Lee's Recovery Church included.

To me it represented an actual learning moment which transcended "local church discussions".

One time I was told that a factoid is something repeated so often, that it is accepted as fact, as truth. That was an "aha" moment for me, as I was leaving the LC. Hierarchy, or lack thereof, was one such LC "factoid." We constantly stated that there was no hierarchy in the Recovery, that we were all just "brothers," but, of course, we all knew that some brothers were more "brother" than all other brothers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hierarchy, or lack thereof, was one such LC "factoid." We constantly stated that there was no hierarchy in the Recovery, that we were all just "brothers," but, of course, we all knew that some brothers were more "brother" than all other brothers.

Like "Animal Farm". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. James chapter 2 had it right, I think: "Why do some of you brothers get a special chair at the front of the meeting?" What is your organizational mindset as you arrange yourselves? Is it of earth, or of heaven?

[Truth]

Originally Posted by aron

Like "Animal Farm". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. James chapter 2 had it right, I think: "Why do some of you brothers get a special chair at the front of the meeting?" What is your organizational mindset as you arrange yourselves? Is it of earth, or of heaven?

I love that book. Funny that you mentioned it. More than one person new to the LC had mentioned to me that the Recovery reminds him/her of communism. They try to hard to make everyone *equal*, but we know that not all are equal.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Truth

More than one person new to the LC had mentioned to me that the Recovery reminds him/her of communism. They try to hard to make everyone *equal*, but we know that not all are equal.

Jesus didn't say all are equal. He said some have one, some have five, some have ten talents.

Paul didn't write that all are equal. Paul wrote that just as star differs from star in glory, so it is in the house of God.

So the LC "we are all small potatoes" doesn't work. Because some "small potato" invariably gets a podium up front and gets a special chair. Then if you become a rabid cheerleader for that "small potato" who is now God's mouthpiece, you move up and become a "co-worker" or a "blended one".

Et voila: hierarchy, and of the earthly sort.

In contrast, Jesus said, "If you want to be great, be the least."

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative.

For many escape from the LC or any other such church is a very compelling narrative and interestingly enough some would say a break from all things "spiritual" including talk about God was a necessary stepping stone. Within the context of their own life they had to discover the distinction between the true God who is actually interested in them and their life vs. the god of the group who requires sacrifice for the sake of the group at all costs while their own identities and personalities are rendered insignificant.

Originally Posted by aron

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Of course it references Jesus Christ but not as a mere reference or talking point but rather a person in relationship with the ex-member as an individual human being in the nitty gritty context of their real lives. If the LC taught us anything it's that quantity of talking about God does not equal a quality relationship with Him. May I suggest the leaving of any church like the LC is not just about discovering who God really is but also discovering your own humanity.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place.

I understand what you are saying. But at some level I am not sure that there is not a propensity for certain people to be more easily attracted to certain kinds of things, and others to other kinds of things. And sometimes, it is the fact that it is "different" that is the attraction. For the "seeking" Christian, anything that is not where I am might be attractive. And the more different from what I have seen before the greater the attraction.

Acknowledging that there are those whose sojourn in the LRC was by birth, or because they were with their spouse/family, most of us were looking for something more meaningful than what we were getting at the time in our various places. And, like I mentioned earlier, if you managed to come in contact with the LRC, there was an appeal due to the community. So if you didn't hear anything too radical too quickly, you got desensitized to the extremes in stages — like the frog in the kettle.

And while I do not simply say that the appealing things were wrong (they certainly were not for the most part), our propensity now is too often to use our experience with the LRC as a benchmark for anything Christian. After much consideration of the erroneous teachings, and the ways that even the culture allowed things to go awry, I am quite done with the LRC experience benchmark.

The feelings do not change the facts (a line from a supplement song). The song's follow-on was always "Jesus is Lord of all." And that is true. But the feelings also do not make things right. The camaraderie of the community does not overcome the poisonous teachings against our Christian brothers and sisters.

And if you can find the camaraderie and "feeling" in a wholesome environment, that is great. But that is not the goal of Christian fellowship. Or of the church. It is the propagation of the gospel and the building up of the believers. And the building up of the believers is not just church stuff. Or "spiritual" stuff. It is the change in lives in the "marketplace" — the mall, neighborhood, parks, at work, etc. And the change in lives is not exuberance. Or a lot of "calling on the Lord" — although that can happen. It surely is not in learning better and better teachings while using a more and more bizarre lexicon.

On the whole, a fairly sizable group of good Christians have been tricked into giving their lives to propagate a ministry. To defend separation from other Christians — and the denigration of those Christians.

One of our former participants here is still enamored with what he learned from "The Experience of Life." But if it does not change anything but our religious experience, I don't think it is the "life that is really life." That life changes everything, not just spiritual stuff. It doesn't just affect our worship and meetings. It affects our interaction with everyone. Even the heathen.

And if the fruit that James talks of is not found, it is not true faith or belief. And despite Lee's claims otherwise, I believe that reading Paul actually comes to the same conclusion — just in a different way.