Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/Leaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

This article is a well written challenge to the current leadership of the LSM, and includes recent condemnations issued from on high and directed at Steve Isitt.

Can this article be printed out on the forum? Nigel's are printed out and some of them are 10x longer.

[TLFisher]

Many of the Blended brothers don't need to be told what happened. They know. They were there. Especially ones who resided in Orange County California at the time; Ron, Dan, Minoru, Dick, etc. The problem as Igzy pointed out in another thread is pride. Self-centered pride restricts from a brother 1. being humble and 2. being honest. That's just for starters. Instead an attitude has permeated many decent brothers; "even if I'm wrong, I'm still right".
Reading Steve's article one phrase that caught my attention was:

"Thus, there is no regard for Brother Lee’s word that he himself was wrong in the past and that leaders, including Brother Lee, have made mistakes. The record shows that he did, and they did, make serious mistakes, to the extent that if diligent study was done, outside the facade of innocence in the leadership, the entire history would need to be re-written and earnest repentances made, and a Jubilee granted to the wrongfully cast out, driven out, or left behind saints. "

Key word being Jubilee. Though I had heard the term many years ago, it wasn't until this past year did I learn what the Jubilee truly was.

You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
Leviticus 25:10

[Indiana]

http://www.LeadersoftheLordsRecovery...gasEcuador.pdf

Compare the three accounts of dishonored former leaders - John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and John So to those three books of honored leaders in the Lord’s recovery - Ron Kangas, Andrew Yu, and Witness Lee. I have done this over a span of 12 years and report my findings openly, and in the light. But you seem to be hiding, and afraid of the truth I speak. Moreover, I seem to “have become your enemy by presenting the truth to you.”

1989 Ron Kangas 1989 AndrewYu 1990 Witness Lee www.ourneedtoexamineourselves.com/ThreeBooks.pdf

[TLFisher]

"When doing a Google search on my name in 2010, immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word declaring at an international leaders conference in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”. I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and left a message with his wife for him to call me. There was no response from him. I then wrote him a letter a few months later expressing my desire to fellowship with him over his concerns about me and my writings on the internet. But I did not hear back from him."

Bless brother Ron, but after what he spoke in Ecuador, with his speaking accessible on the internet, and with brother Steve's efforts to reach Ron by phone and in writing; Ron's no response is clearly irresponsible. One should not have to resort to legal means in order to get a response.

[TLFisher]

Brother Ron also had this to say in Ecaudor:

"But suppose a brother just wants to work. He says, “why can’t I be a worker? All these old workers, they are dead. We are young and vital.” That is how the great upheaval began in Taiwan 50 years ago. You plan to repeat that history? The young ones rose up. They said all of you are the older generation, you are old and dead, we have seen the vision.

The Lord’s move is with us. And, to make the story short, they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost. And, all of these young workers came to nothing."

This is what happened in the late 1980's as well. Elders were told there were old, etc by younger ambitious brothers. Just as brother Ron has mentioned, these younger brothers back in the late 1980's "they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Brother Ron also had this to say in Ecaudor:

"But suppose a brother just wants to work. He says, “why can’t I be a worker? All these old workers, they are dead. We are young and vital.” That is how the great upheaval began in Taiwan 50 years ago. You plan to repeat that history? The young ones rose up. They said all of you are the older generation, you are old and dead, we have seen the vision.

The Lord’s move is with us. And, to make the story short, they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost. And, all of these young workers came to nothing."

This is what happened in the late 1980's as well. Elders were told there were old, etc by younger ambitious brothers. Just as brother Ron has mentioned, these younger brothers back in the late 1980's "they caused a lot of damage. A whole generation in the churches was lost."

This just reeks of historical revisionism. Does not anyone remember that it was LSM operatives who stirred up the young people, and it was LSM operatives who undermined the existing local and regional leadership, and it was these same LSM operatives whose goal was to take over control of the entire Recovery by destroying the reputation of those upright brothers like John Ingalls who stood in their way.

I used to like Ron Kangas as a gifted teacher, but his views of Recovery history and LSM's seamy actions behind closed doors, like those of his mentor Witness Lee, are steeped in hypocrisy, misrepresentations, gross distortions, and twisting of the scripture, all for selfish gain.

[Indiana]

Ron in Ecuador

Before Ron Kangas went to Ecuador in 2008 he knew about independent workers in South America who were no longer under brother Dong, but neither were they in coordination with the LSM churches.

He, therefore, said in Ecuador concerning them that LSM does not consider these brothers to be their co-workers since they do not yet recognize the headship of Christ in the "local churches", and respect the elders of each "local church".

Ron also heard of my writings that were circulating among at least enough people to make him very concerned. Among those writings was Bill Mallon’s letter to Brother Lee, which I had commented on and which Ron alluded to in his 2008 message in Ecuador.

But, he did so in derogatory fashion, not making reference to Bill Mallon’s devastating experience with LSM co-workers in the late 1980s who at that time themselves did not recognize the headship of Christ with the elders among the churches,which was a big problem to Bill and other elders in the Southeast churches. This vital matter was skipped over by Ron in his speaking in Ecuador, as he mentioned Bill's letter only in a negative light. Because Ron Kangas did not want to justify Bill's concerns or my writings, he portrayed Bill Mallon’s letter as bad for his appeal to Brother Lee about LSM’s ignoble behavior in the Southeast, and he portrayed me as bad, as well, for circulating Bill’s letter, and other writings also.

Transcript Part 2: “Brothers, here are the two extremes, one extreme is control. Someone is in charge of the whole country; he is in charge of the work in this country. And, he has people under him and it is a system of hierarchy and control. If we know the Spirit we will not take this. This is not the headship of Christ and the Body of Christ.

Those who have been under this kind of thing may go to the other extreme, so they don’t respect anyone with any kind of leadership. You are in the old regime, we are in the new way. Are we not workers?

I would say, you are workers, deceitful workers, and you yourself are deceived, thinking you are something you are not. You might be an evil worker opposing God’s economy, but that is not likely. Or, as the Lord said, you might be a worker of lawlessness. That means with you there is no authority. You are not a man under authority. You are your own king.”

Comment: Since several brothers in South America knew LSM’s history, they would find “independence” from LSM perhaps best for them under the circumstances. But Ron goes ahead and puts these workers in a bad light, along with Bill Mallon and myself in front of the congregation, deceiving them, and appearing to be a “minister of righteousness” among the leaders in S. America. And one who shows no compassion, understanding, or acknowledgement of the real situation. Ron, though, is good, LSM is good, Local Churches are good, and he keeps everything in a good light, falsely.

This is not a true leader, but one who is deceitful, lawless, and false. He does not know things as he ought to know them, and if what I am saying is not true, will DCP or someone please stand up and support Ron's claims that I am indeed a man of death for choosing to feed people the truth instead of perpetuating the fictional stories devised at LSM and “sold” to the saints as real.


www.twoturmoils.com/MallonLetterLeeResponse.pdf


Steve Isitt
9-8-2013

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This just reeks of historical revisionism. Does not anyone remember that it was LSM operatives who stirred up the young people, and it was LSM operatives who undermined the existing local and regional leadership, and it was these same LSM operatives whose goal was to take over control of the entire Recovery by destroying the reputation of those upright brothers like John Ingalls who stood in their way.

I used to like Ron Kangas as a gifted teacher, but his views of Recovery history and LSM's seamy actions behind closed doors, like those of his mentor Witness Lee, are steeped in hypocrisy, misrepresentations, gross distortions, and twisting of the scripture, all for selfish gain.

How fitting to bring up something that happened 50 years ago. Has anyone bothered to check out what happened to these brothers? Just because they may not be renown or have had an unfilled ambition that spurred their leaving, they have not been useful?
All the while Ron's speaking passing over 1987-1989 and the role LSM functioned in the late 80's turmoil. Has anyone ever considered if LSM coworkers did not undermine fellowship of local elders, Bill Mallon does not write that letter to Witness Lee?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Brother Ron also had this to say in Ecaudor:

"But suppose a brother just wants to work. He says, “why can’t I be a worker?"

This question contains assumptions about what constitutes a "worker", and shows that the speaker has been distracted from the work of God. Let me give an example why I think thus.

At my job there is a cleaning lady, and I always try to have some encouragement for her. She is middle aged, divorced, with two teen-aged children. She is Hispanic, probably has RCC background. Every time I tell her about her heavenly Father who in love sent His Son Jesus, her face shines and her eyes open wide and hungrily absorb every trace of light I can emit.

Now I ask, "why can't I be a worker?" Answer: anyone can. Anyone can do the work of the Lord. "Feed my sheep. Feed my lambs. Shepherd my sheep." Those were the Lord's words to us all, clearly. The Lord said, "Whenever you do this to these the least of my brothers you do it unto Me." This woman qualifies as the least of the Lord's bretheren, and presents an opportunity to work, a chance to feed and shepherd.

Now with the local church clergy-laity system of "workers" and "responsible ones" you have to be assigned by headquarters or you will be on the outside plaintively asking, "why can't I be a worker?"

Matthew 14:19 "Taking the five loaves and the two fish ... he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people."

[Indiana]

http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...sReporting.pdf

Ron, the brother you refer to lives near you. Why don’t you go to visit him? He would welcome you and genuine mutual fellowship would ensue over serious matters that divide. He and other brothers are open for such mending fellowship. Are you willing?

Here is a problem, the unwillingness to begin meaningful dialogue and pursue oneness in the Body. And, here we see why there is a need for brothers to come together: Ron acts like there was no ground for brothers to be seriously concerned about Brother Lee, as we see Brother Lee in those days deflecting matters of right and wrong. He said, “most people pay attention to the matter of being right or wrong. However, in today’s situation it is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a matter of whether we are divisive or not”.

Brother Lee practiced deflecting matters of right and wrong and Ron Kangas has done the same, while both displaced blame onto others, discrediting them publicly, and waxing disingenuous in their reporting on “whether we are divisive or not”.

[Ohio]

Steve Isitt writes ...

When doing a Google search on my name in 2010, immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word declaring at an international leaders conference in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”.

I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and left a message with his wife for him to call me. There was no response from him. I then wrote him a letter a few months later expressing my desire to fellowship with him over his concerns about me and my writings on the internet. But I did not hear back from him.

Here we can see the mindset of Ron Kangas and the Blended Oligarchy at LSM.

They are convinced that, as God's Deputy Authority over the whole earth, they can freely pass judgments on any and all things Christian. These "Spiritual Judges" don't need the typical legal proceedings which regulate our judicial system, and protect the normal rights of individuals. These "Spiritual Judges" are above all that. They can make up their own rules if and when they see fit.

Let's put this another way. If a sitting trial judge sentences a convicted criminal to life imprisonment, would he accept a phone call from that criminal seeking "fellowship?" Would that judge accept a letter from the criminal expressing his concerns? The obvious answer to both questions is "no, of course not!" In fact, the judge would consider this as harassment, and possibly further charges against the criminal would be considered.

This is the exact same mindset at LSM.

Unfortunately, based on the clear teachings of the Bible, Steve Isitt believes that he and Ron Kangas are both brothers, are both children of God, and thus should seriously pray and consider reconciliation. Steve is convinced that this is the proper course of action. I commend him for this, but, sorry to say, brother Ron Kangas is no longer just a brother. He got promoted.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

_______ writes ...Here we can see the mindset of Ron Kangas and the Blended Oligarchy at LSM.

They are convinced that, as God's Deputy Authority over the whole earth, they can freely pass judgments on any and all things Christian. These "Spiritual Judges" don't need the typical legal proceedings which regulate our judicial system, and protect the normal rights of individuals. These "Spiritual Judges" are above all that. They can make up their own rules if and when they see fit.

Let's put this another way. If a sitting trial judge sentences a convicted criminal to life imprisonment, would he accept a phone call from that criminal seeking "fellowship?" Would that judge accept a letter from the criminal expressing his concerns? The obvious answer to both questions is "no, of course not!" In fact, the judge would consider this as harassment, and possibly further charges against the criminal would be considered.

This is the exact same mindset at LSM.

Unfortunately, based on the clear teachings of the Bible, Steve Isitt believes that he and Ron Kangas are both brothers, are both children of God, and thus should seriously pray and consider reconciliation. Steve is convinced that this is the proper course of action. I commend him for this, but, sorry to say, brother Ron Kangas is no longer just a brother. He got promoted.

The following is taken from a post I made a couple years ago, when Ron was getting "help" from the internet. I want to insert this here, then continue with my line of thought from the transcript. (Note: The above quote is not from me; it is from Ohio.)

"Before listening to tapes #3 and #4 of brother Ron Kangas I happened to be at someone’s 50th year birthday party and in comes two local church brothers who happened to be invited also. We engaged in an hour long conversation in which they told me I needed to forget all these things of the past, and that I was bitter, and that I needed to humble myself and take the cross to my opinion, encouraging me to listen to Ron Kangas’ tapes given the previous weekend. So, I did and paid close attention to what he was actually saying and the attitude he was conveying.

In a grand display of rhetoric about the cross he impressed his listeners of the need among so many people in the world who live by the self to have their mouths stopped. Concerning on-line speakers such as myself, he categorically states that none of us knows the cross, the Lord, or the Body, that “what they love is not the saints but the things of the saints and to talk about them; so they go online and expose what they know to the whole world.” We only care for the self and for retaliation against those who have offended us, according to Ron’s limited understanding.

He is obviously shaken a bit by the just truths he's read on the internet and is struggling to keep his unjust world intact instead of humbly subjecting himself to our online concerns and any speaking of the Lord to him. He says, “I don’t fear you going online. It is good for me to be flayed. But it is not good for you. We’ll love you, you are the will of God to us, but you are on a fast track to outer darkness.”

This is his “love to us” to let us know we are on a fast track to outer darkness, and again, as always, offering no support to his statement, or an invitation to come to a table of fellowship, as they had accomplished to their favor with CRI. Indeed, while the leadership has ignored our requests to properly come to a table of mutual fellowship, they make no requests of their own for such a gathering and then wonder why we are now online to speak our concerns.

Ron Kangas, meanwhile, uses an international stage to disparage us, brothers and sisters he doesn’t really know, or care about, dismissing us as ones offended by the church, who make “lawless use of the internet”, little realizing that we are God’s mercy to him.

An encouraging word, at the end of a long message on the cross, was that Ron said he longs for the reality of the church life and, adding a little levity, said he hoped his wife would not report him to the blending brothers.

I think Ron actually needs a very long vacation, to remote resort locations far away from the pulpit, the crowd, the laudits and relax and rejuvenate, and contemplate for himself what he said about others that “they don’t know themselves; they only know the weaknesses of others, that’s what they talk about.” Just leave Jerusalem, go north to Philippi, where the air is fresh and clean, and become clear about yourself, sharing normally with the guy sipping the martini in the lawn chair next to you how much you are enjoying life away from the pulpit and meeting people like him. And, see Who appears to enjoy these people with you and what He will have to share with them in a ministry that is Himself. And, eventually, return home with a ministry that is just Himself with deep interest in “each man” and “every man” for, ultimately, the building up of His Body. How encouraging and inspiring that would be." _END

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

"When doing a Google search on my name in 2010, immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word declaring at an international leaders conference in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”. I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and left a message with his wife for him to call me. There was no response from him. I then wrote him a letter a few months later expressing my desire to fellowship with him over his concerns about me and my writings on the internet. But I did not hear back from him."

Bless brother Ron, but after what he spoke in Ecuador, with his speaking accessible on the internet, and with brother Steve's efforts to reach Ron by phone and in writing; Ron's no response is clearly irresponsible. One should not have to resort to legal means in order to get a response.

As I have told Steve on several occasions, it has been my sense Ron's tone, his speaking of Steve, and specifically mentioning Steve's name at that conference in Ecuador is directly related to Steve's critique of the book Ron and Kerry co-authored. It would not be a stretch to say that conference was a platform to levy a measure of retribution directed at brother Steve.

This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

"When doing a Google search on my name in 2010, immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word declaring at an international leaders conference in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”. I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and left a message with his wife for him to call me. There was no response from him. I then wrote him a letter a few months later expressing my desire to fellowship with him over his concerns about me and my writings on the internet. But I did not hear back from him."

Bless brother Ron, but after what he spoke in Ecuador, with his speaking accessible on the internet, and with brother Steve's efforts to reach Ron by phone and in writing; Ron's no response is clearly irresponsible. One should not have to resort to legal means in order to get a response.

IMHO this is just another example of the spiritual immaturity of the LC system leaders. If you make the mistake of declaring a bold negative public statement against a bro at least have the b***s to accept his invitation to fellowship in private about it.

Man-up Ron! What have you got to lose? Have the decency to answer Steve Isitt. Remember you represent God's government on the earth today! Giterdone!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Man-up Ron!

What have you got to lose?

Have the decency to answer Steve Isitt. Remember you represent God's government on the earth today! Giterdone!

Are you serious?!?

While I agree that the scriptural mandate for Ron Kangas is to fellowship with Steve Isitt, it will never happen!

Why?

Simple. Like a grand jury investigation, sitting down with Isitt will force Kangas to examine events which occurred during past quarantines in the light of scriptures. The problems between Kangas and Isitt are not personal in nature. Isitt is considered a "man of death" by Kangas because he has attempted to factually, historically, and honestly examine our history in the Recovery. Doing this will expose Witness Lee, Phiip Lee, and Living Stream Ministry to numerous cases of corruption. This is what a fair evaluation of the facts of history shows us.

Consider the non-scriptural allegations levied against all quarantined ex-members: writing books, doing their own work, allowing electric guitars, rebellion, speaking opinions, holding private conspiratorial meetings, etc. etc. Then as soon as the saints begin to understand how LSM hides the truth from them, LSM levies the most "serious" charge of all: division.

But let's not mention how so many other men of God and Ministers Of The Age (MOTAs) have also brought "division" into the body of Christ. The great-grand-daddy of all Recovery MOTA's was Martin Luther, who brought division to the Catholic Church. The grand-daddy Brethren MOTA John Darby brought division to the Anglican Church (which was previously divided from the Catholic Church by King Henry VIII.) Then the father of modern MOTA's, Watchman Nee in China, brought division to the Methodist Church (which btw was also divided from the Anglican Church by John Wesley.) Zinzendorf, the supposed 18th century MOTA, a contemporary of Wesley, began by accepting cast-offs from all other churches, thus forming the Moravian Church, another new division.

Thus to be charged with the high crime of "division," brings these outcast quarantined brothers into some seriously qualified company of spiritual giants, with the notable exception of the King of England. Isn't it amazing just how LSM loves to have things both ways? They exalt men of God for breaking away and starting something new, but then condemn their own contemporaries for identical actions.

Reminds me of something the Lord Jesus once said ...

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" --Matt. 23.29-33

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?!?

Am I serious that Ron should man-up and have face-to-face fellowship with Steve Isitt? Yes! Do I think he will man-up? No! Manning-up is not Ron's strong suit. If it was he would have tried to oust Philip Lee from LSM or resign instead of working under him.

[Indiana]

www.BrotherAndrewYu.com

Andrew Yu was so entirely blinded in his concept of deputy authority that he expressed no human feeling in his book regarding the distressing and trying circumstances that existed for many brothers under Witness Lee’s leadership. Andrew dismissed and buried their grave concerns, saying, “There has never been a case, either in the Scriptures or in church history, where a servant of God has been found to be perfect. A perfect person does not exist. None of us can claim to be perfect.” (p. 5)

Blind Loyalty

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it. Saul was corrupted to the uttermost, but David always and with impeccability recognized Saul as God’s anointed authority. In the same principle the archangel Michael dared not to rebuke Satan, but would only ask the Lord to do it (Jude 9). Satan still had his authority, even though he had already fallen. This case shows us the immutability of the spiritual principle that once a person is a spiritual authority over others and recognized as a spiritual authority, he is always so. To overthrow such a one, for any reason, constitutes rebellion.” (pp. 13, 31)

Andrew’s idea of establishing a king forever to bow to is contrary to what is spoken in the ministry itself, derailing Andrew’s faulty word to the elders and co-workers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

….“This case shows us the immutability of the spiritual principle that once a person is a spiritual authority over others and recognized as a spiritual authority, he is always so. To overthrow such a one, for any reason, constitutes rebellion.” (pp. 13, 31).

So why were Watchman Nee & Co free to leave Christianity? Or why did Nee give Luther a free pass when Luther left Roman Catholicism?

And so forth. As always, a case of "do as I say, not as I do."

Or, "This is a firm and immutable rule which applies to everyone at all times." *

* (But not to me)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority.

I'm always torn between trying to show that these LSM guys are idiots and just calling them idiots. I mean, their assertions are so stupid that it becomes almost pointless to bother to debate them.

Andrew Yu is basically saying that if someone has spiritual authority and then denies the faith and goes out and starts a porn site that he still has spiritual authority over everyone. Where does he get this stuff? It's nonsense. Worse, it's bullying. It's just a fear-based power play dressed up as some profound truth. It's an insult to the Lord and his Body.

It's long past time to start tuning these guys out. There has to be a better place to realize God's purpose than anything they are a part of.

[alwayslearning]

In the late 1980s Andrew Yu and Ron Kangas were paid employees of Witness Lee's publishing company LSM. Obviously they are going to write advertorials in support of their boss and hope their intended readership are gullible enough to swallow it. In my view they are just hucksters.

But astonishingly per material at Indiana's link on this thread some like Don Rutledge can't seem to grasp that Witness Lee was the common denominator in all the "turmoils". (Even while dead he was the common denominator in the BB v. Titus Chu split.)

There was no power struggle between Witness Lee and Max Rapoport. Rapoport knew that he did not have the same stature as Witness Lee in the LC system. He said and did things under the direction of Witness Lee who was actively and firmly at the helm running "the work". When Witness Lee's ideas and methods didn't work out he used Rapoport as a convenience scapegoat.

Furthermore an underlying issue WAS Philip Lee and his improprieties in the LSM office which Rapoport attempted to address in the late 1970s as did some coworkers and elders in the late 1980s. That is to say AFTER Rapoport was ousted the problem of Witness Lee (and his son) STILL persisted in the LC system for another decade or so until another batch of coworkers and elders were ousted for addressing some of the same issues.

So although what Andrew Yu wrote is nonsense to most people it is true for the LC system: Witness Lee is their MOTA, the authority that cannot be questioned, etc. And their history even up until today proves the point - his writings are more authoritative than the Bible itself and they even have divisions over who's interpretation of his writings are official, authentic etc.

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...and they even have divisions over who's interpretation of his writings are official, authentic etc.

True: now the local churches, which supposedly exist for the recovery of the one Body of Christ, are having divisions regarding which interpretations and applications of the ministry of Witness Lee are most appropriate to recover the oneness of the Body of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it. Saul was corrupted to the uttermost, but David always and with impeccability recognized Saul as God’s anointed authority.

The irony here is that Witness Lee and Sons lusted after the same kingly authority that Saul once enjoyed. Lee taught all his minions to behave like David, saying absolutely nothing about all the corruptions in his ministry. Francis Ball publicly stated that he would rather be an ostrich with his head in the ground, and he apparently was. Lee taught that King Saul was "corrupted to the uttermost," and that only God could deal with him, but did not Lee demand the same freedom from all culpability?

Lee loved to teach high and spiritual principles to the whole of the Recovery, yet never felt obligated to keep any of his own decrees. Lee taught never to mix business with the church, yet he did so with Daystar. Lee taught never to bring family members into the ministry, yet his son Philip ran LSM molesting sisters and abusing elders. Lee taught that we all should have been like "policemen" confronting Max Rapoport, yet when any stood up to speak their conscience to Lee, their reputations were immediately smeared.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee taught that King Saul was "corrupted to the uttermost," and that only God could deal with him, but did not Lee demand the same freedom from all culpability?

Coincidence? I think not.

Equally telling, to me, was that once Watchman Nee decided that the European Protestant churches in China were "corrupted to the uttermost" his ensuing revelation was that he didn't have to submit to their authority, "no, not even for an hour" (Gal 2:5).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Coincidence? I think not.

Equally telling, to me, was that once Watchman Nee decided that the European Protestant churches in China were "corrupted to the uttermost" his ensuing revelation was that he didn't have to submit to their authority, "no, not even for an hour" (Gal 2:5).

No, aron, not just coincidence.

I think the most effective means to uncover exclusive systems is to expose their hypocrisy. This is exactly what Jesus Himself did when confronting all the Jewish leaders of His day. Legalism, as a rule, always produces a system of man-pleasers who hide their true nature "out in public." They create rules they themselves cannot keep, and so they live a life of pretense.

Witness Lee, with the assistance of a continual cadre of blind sycophants, was able to maintain a mirage of holiness before all the LC's. He could never do it by himself. The inherent problem is that no leader can predict just how loyal his followers will be. Each man has his own "red line" when it comes to corruption.

As I have studied the history of the Recovery, it became obvious that each so-called "storm" or "rebellion" actually was certain leaders reacting to Lee's infringement on their own "red line." This caused some to speak their conscience in protest. Each of them had at one time loved the ministry of Witness Lee, yet his hypocrisy got exposed for them to see, and like a house of cards, it all seemed to suddenly crash.

This explains why so many dear brothers seemed to get "poisoned" and change overnight. The bubble popped, and the lights got turned on. All the hypocrisy was laid bare. Since none of it was ever dealt with properly, one whiff of the heaping pile of stench was all it took.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As I have studied the history of the Recovery, it became obvious that each so-called "storm" or "rebellion" actually was certain leaders reacting to Lee's infringement on their own "red line." This caused some to speak their conscience in protest. Each of them had at one time loved the ministry of Witness Lee, yet his hypocrisy got exposed for them to see, and like a house of cards, it all seemed to suddenly crash.

This explains why so many dear brothers seemed to get "poisoned" and change overnight. The bubble popped, and the lights got turned on. All the hypocrisy was laid bare. Since none of it was ever dealt with properly, one whiff of the heaping pile of stench was all it took.

I understand what you're saying Ohio. Based on your post's portion I had quoted I believe this is where the saying was developed, don't make an issue of persons, matters, or things.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee loved to teach high and spiritual principles to the whole of the Recovery, yet never felt obligated to keep any of his own decrees. Lee taught never to mix business with the church, yet he did so with Daystar. Lee taught never to bring family members into the ministry, yet his son Philip ran LSM molesting sisters and abusing elders. Lee taught that we all should have been like "policemen" confronting Max Rapoport, yet when any stood up to speak their conscience to Lee, their reputations were immediately smeared.

Hypocrisy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it.

Here is a Recovery construct that is like an impenetrable fortress. Consider these questions which draw from Yu's theories ...

1. When did God establish that Witness Lee was His personal Deputy Authority over all the Local Churches with all their members?
2. Where in scripture does it say that God alone will "deal with" a corrupted authority? Numerous examples exist where God sent prophets or other men of God to failing leaders.
3. Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

You are right: Lee's characterizations of others does indeed reveal something about his own M.O. (modus operandi, i.e. 'way of doing things'). The real "scheme" here is that of creating a ministry which cannot be questioned or considered critically but must accepted in toto, as if it were straight from the mouth of God Himself.

All of which reminds me to be civil when I disagree with this kind of business going on in the church. If I am continually boiling over with indignation what does that say of me? Where is my own equanimity? Where is the expression of my own inner sense of peace?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here is a Recovery construct that is like an impenetrable fortress. Consider these questions which draw from Yu's theories ...

1. When did God establish that Witness Lee was His personal Deputy Authority over all the Local Churches with all their members?
2. Where in scripture does it say that God alone will "deal with" a corrupted authority? Numerous examples exist where God sent prophets or other men of God to failing leaders.
3. Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

I agree this sort of "Recovery" construct is an impenetrable fortress. And it rises and falls on two fundamentals:

1. Witness Lee is the undisputed and unchallengeable authority. Since his death his writing and it's official interpreters/LSM senior management are this authority.

2. They are the only true legitimate church in God's eyes. The only place you can be sanctified, blessed, etc. They are Jerusalem so if you leave you only have one of two places to go: Egypt (the world) or Babylon (Christianity).

#1 allowed Witness Lee to do and teach whatever he wanted without recourse. This included having his abusive son run LSM with authority over elders, coworkers, full timers, etc.

#2 keeps you trapped in the system regardless of what Witness Lee said or did and this now extends to the BB.

Once a person realizes Witness Lee was just another flawed teacher who's writings are nothing but mere commentary and the LC system is just another church among many the mental shackles begin to fall away. The construct cannot remain intact without this foundation.

Some who get free from this bondage may still stay in the LC system for various reasons but they are awake to the realities of the situation. They just laugh or roll their eyes when they hear anything about the MOTA, the LC being the only church, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I agree this sort of "Recovery" construct is an impenetrable fortress.

A GLA elder moved out west for several years and tried to meet with the LC while he was there. He could not believe how dead and dormant the church and the elders were, so he eventually went to fellowship with the elders. After a short period of consideration, the elders decided to quarantine the dear brother, and warned all the saints about him.

Soon things changed, and the brother moved back to the GLA. Cleveland leaders caught wind of his arrival, and did their best to usher him back into the fold. He happened to mention to the Cleveland elders how the LC out west reacted to his honest endeavor to fellowship there.

The Cleveland elders thought it was the funniest thing they ever heard, "you went to those elders and told them how dead they were."

Then my friend made his simple case to them ...

1. If I go to the elders to fellowship, then I am labeled as opinionated.
2. If I fellowship with other brothers, then I am marked out as rebellious.
3. If I remain quiet and not fellowship, then I am branded as political.

Their laughter subsided.

Thus we have a closed and fortified stronghold in the Recovery, completely insulated from the living God and His word of life, unhelpable and unaccountable. These brothers have no opportunity to get any spiritual help. The irony is that the same impenetrable fortress surrounds Cleveland and their satellite LC's. Just try and fellowship with them. I tried, as did many others.

[Indiana]

Below are two very interesting quotes by Brother Lee.

''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing.''Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - Living Stream Ministry)


"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago."
(Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - Living Stream Ministry)


www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thus we have a closed and fortified stronghold in the Recovery, completely insulated from the living God and His word of life, unhelpable and unaccountable. These brothers have no opportunity to get any spiritual help. The irony is that the same impenetrable fortress surrounds Cleveland and their satellite LC's. Just try and fellowship with them. I tried, as did many others.

The BB in Anaheim and Titus & Co in Cleveland are merely apples that didn't fall too far from the same tree. Witness Lee was deaf to substantial counsel and so his is fruit! (BTW this is why IMHO they can't get along. It is The Extension of Witness Lee v The Extension of Witness Lee and in the world of Witness Lee there can only be one Witness Lee.)

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority.

Except if that person in authority disagrees with Witness Lee. In which case his authority can be overturned, revoked, overthrown and expired. Why? Because Witness Lee said so!

Ahhh...but now Witness Lee is dead and authority has apparently been transferred to a committee. And this committee at LSM HQ has the authority to overturn, revoke, overthrow and expire the authority of a coworker/apostle like Titus Chu. This governing body/committee/board is The Authority over all others in the LC system. If you are an elder or coworker and refuse to submit to this bunch then: Surprise - we overturned you're authority! Goodbye!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

This governing body/committee/board is The Authority over all others in the LC system. If you are an elder or coworker and refuse to submit to this bunch then: Surprise - we overturned you're authority! Goodbye!

Alwayslearning, the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority". Seems delegated authority is at the local level and this delegated authority can be revoked if you are not man-honoring, placating, partial to the committee known as BB's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

. . . the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority".

In practice it's trickle down authority ; the only authority, cuz it's top down.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

Alwayslearning, the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority". Seems delegated authority is at the local level and this delegated authority can be revoked if you are not man-honoring, placating, partial to the committee known as BB's.

Yes there may be such a nuance. But Titus Chu in terms of the LC system is an apostle/coworker with apostolic authority i.e. beyond the local level. Yet this committee at LSM HQ 3,000 miles away decided to oust him and fully expected their edict to be carried out globally.

And of course this whole idea of a committee ousting apostles can be found no where in the NT. Even Andrew Yu in his weird little book writes: "Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned." A committee is not an authority. So if Titus Chu is a spiritual authority to others per their own words the fact can never be overturned. And yet there Andrew was with his big mouth open in Whistler helping to oust Titus. The hypocrisy of the LC system leadership knows no bounds!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Yes there may be such a nuance. But Titus Chu in terms of the LC system is an apostle/coworker with apostolic authority i.e. beyond the local level. Yet this committee at LSM HQ 3,000 miles away decided to oust him and fully expected their edict to be carried out globally.

And of course this whole idea of a committee ousting apostles can be found no where in the NT. Even Andrew Yu in his weird little book writes: "Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned." A committee is not an authority. So if Titus Chu is a spiritual authority to others per their own words the fact can never be overturned. And yet there Andrew was with his big mouth open in Whistler helping to oust Titus. The hypocrisy of the LC system leadership knows no bounds!

On the topic of authority something further needs to be said. Among the local churches, there is an unhealthy application of authority. Primarily when the leaders respected as authority (locally or extra-locally) are considered above reproach, rebuke, and accountability.

[Indiana]

www.BrotherDanTowle.com

Dan Towle – An original Concerned Brother

John Ingalls speaking. About the second week of October we began to fellowship with Dan Towle, an elder in the church in Fullerton and a trainer from the full-time training in Taipei, who was attempting to give direction and help to the fifty or sixty full-timers who had moved from Taipei to Orange County. To his great frustration, the full-timers were taken over by the LSM office and its management, and were charged to do construction and yard work over an extended period of time to the neglect of their gospel preaching. Dan had also heard some things concerning misconduct and irregularities related to the ministry office that greatly upset him, and he had serious concerns as we did for the Lord’s recovery. At one point he told me that he considered to resign from the work and to leave. We confirmed his feeling that the situation was indeed serious. - J. Ingalls, from his book

- Steve Isitt speaking This dear brother, Dan Towle, one of the original Concerned Brothers, had much to be concerned about. He, Minoru, Dick Taylor, Francis all had serious concerns. These were Concerned Brothers till denial set in, and they then marched on.

Francis told Dan Leslie and I at lunch together in 1990 that he almost didn’t make it through the turmoil. Francis' wife’s two sisters did not make it. (I was in the area for a personal matter, and ended up staying with Francis, after attending a church meeting one night. I knew Dan a little from Seattle, brothers' house.)

John Ingalls speaking: The Thanksgiving weekend was coming up, and there was to be a young people’s conference in the mountains. This was brought up for fellowship, and the question arose concerning who should go to lead the young people.

We learned then that one of the trainers from Taiwan had already been encouraged through those [Philip Lee -ed] serving in the LSM office to come, and in fact he was preparing to come. Most all of the brothers felt strongly and expressed clearly their disagreement with that arrangement, based upon the damage wrought by the high school training in Irving, Texas, in which this particular trainer [Philip Lee -ed] had a prominent role. The elders asked two brothers among them to telephone this trainer in Taiwan to inform him of the brothers’ feeling that someone else should lead the young people in the coming conference. They did so immediately. It was indeed a shock to the brother in Taiwan. It also was a blow to Philip Lee, who presumed to be directing these affairs.

The elders also agreed that for the rest of the saints it would be profitable to come together on Thanksgiving weekend to share some things concerning Christ, the Spirit, life, and the church. All the elders would share the same burden. A few days before the conference was to start Philip Lee met with the full-timers and told them they had no business attending that conference; they should take care of their new ones. It was clear that Philip was absolutely unhappy with our conference. We felt rather that it was most appropriate for the full-timers to bring their new ones to the conference if they were so led. This is the kind of situation we faced.

A few days after the conference, Benson Phillips came to Anaheim from Taiwan and met with the full-timers. Philip Lee, Dan Towle, and Dan Leslie were also present (the latter two had been attempting with difficulty to lead the full-timers in service). Through Benson’s fellowship the leadership of Dan Towle and Dan Leslie with the full-timers was officially terminated, and the full-timers were left under the direction of the LSM office. This was a blow to the two Dans. The full-timers were left in confusion and serious questions were raised in some of them.

A few days later Benson desired to meet with some of the elders representing churches in the area. A lunch was arranged in a nearby restaurant to be followed by fellowship. Present at the meeting were Benson, Dan Towle, Dan Leslie, Ken Unger, Ned Nossaman, Dick Taylor, Frank Scavo, Godfred Otuteye, Al Knoch, and John Ingalls. During the fellowship the brothers began to question Benson concerning current events with the full-timers and the Living Stream Office and the prospects for the church’s relationship with the full-timers. The involvement of the LSM office and its management was a real concern. Benson found it very difficult to answer the brothers’ questions and was alarmed at the attitude of the brothers toward the LSM office. He remarked that the atmosphere in Orange County had changed, and he was bothered. We also were greatly bothered.

www.BrotherDanTowle.com

[Lisbon]

I wish Isset would cut the cords that have held him for such a long time. The LC is not going to change. They're just like the king of the sects. Unless you can get to them with enough millions of dollars as the pedaphyles litigation did the RCC, Anaheim will not budge. There's no reason for them to retract, repent, or else. The leadership is bankrupt as many other sects are. We have to go on. As the Lord has done nothing about the countless sects of Christianity, we had better stay out.

To me it's a real mercy that we have the desire to persue the Lord. I strongly feel the Lord is still saying "come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden an I will give you rest." I personally think I can fellowship with those who have long been my friends but if they choose to cut me off, so be it.

We have to move on.

Lisbon

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

We have to move on.

Never let the demons of your past reach into your present to ruin your future.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

We have to move on.

The "restorationist" sects create an idealized past, like WN's "normal church", that exists only in their simplistic histories. News flash: you can never go back. You can only go forward.

History has occurred. We cannot and should not pretend that it hasn't, unless we want to, ahem, declare that we are all happy to be ostriches with our heads suck in the sand.

If God wanted some 1st century church as the apotheosis of all redeemed creation then that is arguably what we'd see here & now. He didn't, & we don't.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

To me it's a real mercy that we have the desire to persue the Lord. I strongly feel the Lord is still saying "come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden an I will give you rest." I personally think I can fellowship with those who have long been my friends but if they choose to cut me off, so be it.

We have to move on.

Lisbon

Amen Lisbon. This is one of the main reasons that this forum exists - To help us all to move on!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Amen Lisbon. This is one of the main reasons that this forum exists - To help us all to move on!

Seems I like to move back ... ain't that okay?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Seems I like to move back ... ain't that okay?

Only for a few laughs ... then turn around ... and head back in the right direction.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only for a few laughs ... then turn around ... and head back in the right direction.

Going back is fun. That's the purpose of LCD.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I wish Isset would cut the cords that have held him for such a long time. The LC is not going to change. They're just like the king of the sects. Unless you can get to them with enough millions of dollars as the pedaphyles litigation did the RCC, Anaheim will not budge. There's no reason for them to retract, repent, or else. The leadership is bankrupt as many other sects are. We have to go on.

I would say not only is the leadership bankrupt, but deluded with pride. Whether you want to use sect or denomination, each are applicable.

Steve has proved, the LC is a sect when they claim to receive all blood-washed redeemed believers, but they won't receive him (or others) nor have the LC's proved any scriptural basis why he should be refused.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I wish Isset would cut the cords that have held him for such a long time. The LC is not going to change. They're just like the king of the sects. Unless you can get to them with enough millions of dollars as the pedaphyles litigation did the RCC, Anaheim will not budge. There's no reason for them to retract, repent, or else. The leadership is bankrupt as many other sects are. We have to go on. As the Lord has done nothing about the countless sects of Christianity, we had better stay out.

To me it's a real mercy that we have the desire to persue the Lord. I strongly feel the Lord is still saying "come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden an I will give you rest." I personally think I can fellowship with those who have long been my friends but if they choose to cut me off, so be it.

We have to move on.

Lisbon

Yes, I do agree, however, I have appreciated the writings that have been produced as a result of Steve's endeavors. As a disillusioned LC member who began to search the internet, his writings are one of the first things that came up for me. I found one of his more recent writings very helpful. That was the paper regarding the Sandovals that was posted by Terry.

It seems like many who have left the LC in the past, just left and moved on wanting to put the past behind them. That provides good closure to someone as an individual, but current members who are hurting such as myself are not able to learn from the experiences of those kinds of people. Steve's endeavors may never prove successful, however, what we now know as a result of his endeavours is quite valuable, and it has helped me to see the darkness and deception of the current LC leadership.

So what happened in the 80s that caused a dispute among the saints. I see all these post referring to it. What is it?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So what happened in the 80s that caused a dispute among the saints. I see all these post referring to it. What is it?

See: The Philip Lee Affair. Witness Lee's version of events could be seen in the now out-of-print classic " The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion". Other, more comprehensive treatments include "Speaking the Truth in Love" and "Hiding History in the Lord's Recovery".

Basically, Lee's "business decision" to install his admittedly unspiritual son to run the LSM enterprise blew up in his face. So it became loyalty to the truth or to Lee. Most evidently picked Lee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

See: The Philip Lee Affair. Witness Lee's version of events could be seen in the now out-of-print classic " The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion". Other, more comprehensive treatments include "Speaking the Truth in Love" and "Hiding History in the Lord's Recovery".

Basically, Lee's "business decision" to install his admittedly unspiritual son to run the LSM enterprise blew up in his face. So it became loyalty to the truth or to Lee. Most evidently picked Lee.

Phillip Lee was a lightning rod, for sure, to expose the corruption and unrighteousness in Lee's LSM, but it was accompanied by Lee's megalomanic goals and grandiose schemes to dominate and lord it over the church of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Phillip Lee was a lightning rod, for sure, to expose the corruption and unrighteousness in Lee's LSM, but it was accompanied by Lee's megalomanic goals and grandiose schemes to dominate and lord it over the church of God.

Question bro Ohio. Philip happened in the late 80s. You didn't leave until 2006. Is that because of the TC filter factor? Was LSM able to keep the lid on the Philip scandal, so that all the other localities and saints didn't know what happened?

I'm asking because I'm wondering how many stayed in the LRC even after learning about Philip. In other words, I guess, when WL put Philip in charge did many know about his debauchery?

I was long gone by then. How widespread in the LC's was the knowledge of Philip's degeneracy?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

Question bro Ohio. Philip happened in the late 80s. You didn't leave until 2006. Is that because of the TC filter factor? Was LSM able to keep the lid on the Philip scandal, so that all the other localities and saints didn't know what happened?

I'm asking because I'm wondering how many stayed in the LRC even after learning about Philip. In other words, I guess, when WL put Philip in charge did many know about his debauchery?

I was long gone by then. How widespread in the LC's was the knowledge of Philip's degeneracy?

In some localities elders who were willing to bury their head in the sand, shielded their congregations from the fiasco happening in Anaheim.
From firsthand knowledge Phillip's degenerate behavior is regarded as rumors.
All the readers really need to know how LSM was able to keep a lid on the Phillip Lee scandal is read Isaiah 5:20

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

Having this understanding you will see truth is substituted for falsehood and falsehood is substituted for truth.

SO, brothers and sisters accept what they are told as truth. It's like this, Witness Lee and the ones doing his bidding (some of which are known as blended brothers) pass a lie as being truth. The local elders don't know any better. Out of respect, they have no reason to doubt so they unwittingly pass on lie's to their congregations as being true. Brothers and sisters in the congregations respect their elders and see no reason why their elders would lie to them. As a result you have seeking brothers and sisters who go by what "the brother's say".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

See: The Philip Lee Affair. Witness Lee's version of events could be seen in the now out-of-print classic " The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion".

Since I have one in my possession, I never bothered to consider what if I try to order one.
What if?
If it's available to order, LSM stands by their publication.
If it's unavailable to order, it's a subtle way of saying we at LSM regret this book was published and that it contains many serious mistakes.

[Lisbon]

Replying to awareness 273.
I was also in the lc from 1972 and I assure you that BP, RG, and others kept an air tight lid on the PL fiasco. Nothing, not one word was ever mentioned in the Dallas area. I heard two very casual references probably around that time but none other so that there was plenty of reason that the whole thing was somewhat of a hoax.

Not until I came to this forum did I ever hear of details of PL, JI, BM, JS and others. A lot of testimony was very carefully swept under the rug in a very secrety way.

The cat is out of the box but vigorously denied by the hierarchy. If it actually came out the house of cards would come tumbling down.

Lisbon

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Replying to awareness 273.
I was also in the lc from 1972 and I assure you that BP, RG, and others kept an air tight lid on the PL fiasco. Nothing, not one word was ever mentioned in the Dallas area. I heard two very casual references probably around that time but none other so that there was plenty of reason that the whole thing was somewhat of a hoax.

Not until I came to this forum did I ever hear of details of PL, JI, BM, JS and others. A lot of testimony was very carefully swept under the rug in a very secrety way.

Let me get this straight. So when PL was in charge, and localities were calling him for instruction and reporting, no one knew about Philip?

In short, they/Lee successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of those faithfully giving their lives to what they were taught to be the very movement of God? That's devious, and crafty -- devil like -- and without a doubt a hoax.

All I can do is shake my head, realizing that it's still going on. Those poor people ... Lord have mercy on them. They know not what they do.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Let me get this straight. So when PL was in charge, and localities were calling him for instruction and reporting, no one knew about Philip?

They knew about PL running point for LSM and strong-arming the churches — or at least the ones who handled certain administrative oversight for each particular church did.

But that does not mean that they knew anything about his philandering and other sins, or that daddy Lee had driven off the few that attempted to have baby Lee removed from his position in the LSM. They just knew about the enforcer Lee.

[Indiana]

www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf

"I shall walk in my integrity" - King David, Israel

When I started this thread I stated that "Although there are legitimate reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum."

And, this is why I am here again, since the church administration apparently prefers I write rather than be restored to fellowship in the churches. If I am in the church life I am positive for the things in the church life; if I am cut off I address the things that ought to be addressed for truth's sake and a positive outcome for the churches.


www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf

[Indiana]

To Local Church Leaders in the U. S. and around the globe,

I was in the “local churches” for 30 years, 1971-2001 and still manage to have a basic positive view of them. Last year I began to meet with a group quite similar to them, without the drama, yet with the same origin, that is, with a leader having come out of China under Watchman Nee’s early tutelage.

The teachings are the same in the essential truths of the Bible and they have a similar goal of life, gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ for a testimony of God. They meet as assemblies in the U. S. and around the world, rather than as the church in a city. They are careful in receiving believers according to Christ as their one and only center, and they have received me gladly and others I bring. A sister asked me this week after our prayer meeting how I came to their fellowship at Seattle Christian Assembly. I told her, “by a brother’s recommendation”, John Ingalls, from Southern California.

She soon found out I was associated with Witness Lee in the past, about whom she (and her husband) heard from two friends in India, how one brother was “burned” and the other became discouraged. I identified with what she then said about the attention given Witness Lee and his ministry (minister of the age), with, perhaps, as many say, more attention given to his publications than to the Bible (ministry of the age). This was of concern to her two friends. I then testified that I wasn’t like that and that many others in the Local Churches do take the Word first, of course; but also allow the help of a ministry to enhance their understanding and appreciation of what they read. I told her this is what I have done and why there is a deposit in me (that I draw from in our smaller meetings).

The concern of her two friends also was that “they call themselves the church. This and the lifting up of only one man and his ministry alarmed her very much. I told her that if she went to some meetings that she would understand more about their appreciation, but that this was indeed a problem and has led to division.

I shared with her what I spoke briefly on at the beginning of this writing, which Watchman Nee had once shared more fully on, “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And, whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that has a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not. (Normal Christian Church Life)

“Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes those who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.”(p. 184, Nee)

In their church life at Seattle Christian Assembly, they don’t lift up anyone, but the Lord Jesus Christ. They are trained to be focused on Him in all things, in service, in the gospel, in the meetings. They are a praying church. They pray before meetings, going to different rooms, they pray in the meetings, they pray for speakers and serving ones, for new ones, for unbelieving members of families, for the physically weak, for the unemployed, and for a conference in July! And all aspects of it: “Please pray for Stephen Kaung’s health. He is currently experiencing pain in his sciatic nerve, which is hampering the mobility of his left leg. His eyes are also suffering age – related macular degeneration. May the Lord use His power to heal our brother so that he could get well quickly.” __He is scheduled to speak at the West Coast Conference (at 100 years old) along with three other speakers.

There is no book room (that I have seen yet) No plate is passed or place available to drop a money envelope (that I have seen yet) There are also no testimonies. There is a speaker with a translator for English, then we are dismissed to the cafeteria across the hall for lunch, after every Sunday morning meeting where fellowship could ensue from the meeting, or otherwise. There are opportunities for testimonies and sharing in several small group meetings throughout the week.

There is no scriptural reason for any division to exist between a Witness Lee led group of believers and one where Stephen Kaung’s presence has been felt. Believers who possess the same essential extracts of truth from God’s word should come together as adherents of the same cause. Stephen Kaung would welcome this joining together of members under the headship of Christ for the building up of the Body in Love that the world may know....He has approached them before but to no avail at that time. But today, especially with the world situation and war looming, and end-time prophecy possibly unfolding before us, we should give heed to our calling to make straight the way of the Lord and take care of the oneness in His Body, the church universal and local and go opposite of a crumbling scene around us to proceed on the earth by taking an upward path in our spirits to the Throne.

We owe this to the Lord, to the co-workers of the faith, to fellow believers, to relatives and friends and to people in every land - to be one …even as “I and the Father are one..." John 17

new version
www.twoturmoils.com/HidingHistoryofNeeLee.pdf



Steve Isitt
stephen.isitt@gmail.com
April 3, 2015

[Lisbon]

If this is pure redundancy, please delete.

It seems incredible that very shortly before the cross, the Lord caught his disciples arguing about who was to be boss, MOTA, dictator, oracle,etc. He spoke directly to the problem. Hear me you disciples, what you are talking about is the way the gentiles operate. With you it is not going to be that way. Whoever is to be great is going to be your servant. It seems that's not that difficult to understand. No kings, dictators, oracles. By the way oracle is not mentioned in the NT except refering to the OT. Peter instructs all of us to speak as oracles of God but never one Oracle. No singular apostle, only apostles spoken of in NT. I almost wanted to vomit at poor RK's going on about WL as a bond slave at the time of Lee's passing. I never heard of anyone disagreeing with WL and living to tell about it. WL had no co-Workers. What? A slave. It's just plain silly.

Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

If this is pure redundancy, please delete.

It seems incredible that very shortly before the cross, the Lord caught his disciples arguing about who was to be boss, MOTA, dictator, oracle,etc. He spoke directly to the problem. Hear me you disciples, what you are talking about is the way the gentiles operate. With you it is not going to be that way. Whoever is to be great is going to be your servant. It seems that's not that difficult to understand. No kings, dictators, oracles.

Yes, Lisbon, that was pure redundancy, at least for those of us who read the Bible, but keep saying it, since few in leadership seem to be hearing.

Originally Posted by Lisbon

By the way oracle is not mentioned in the NT except referring to the OT. Peter instructs all of us to speak as oracles of God but never one Oracle. No singular apostle, only apostles spoken of in NT. I almost wanted to vomit at poor RK's going on about WL as a bond slave at the time of Lee's passing. I never heard of anyone disagreeing with WL and living to tell about it. WL had no co-Workers. What? A slave. It's just plain silly.

That's kind of like these career politicians in Wash DC calling themselves "public servants."

The only true "public servants" are the volunteers.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In Bill Mallon's letter to Witness Lee he describes the troubling maneuvering of co-workers of Witness Lee in the Southeast to establish ministry-centered churches. Ron Kangas refers to Bill's letter in his message in Ecuador after denouncing me for putting the letter on the internet. Then, before the Body, he dismisses Bill's letter and Bill, with no regard for his testimony or the divisive behavior of the co-workers. I am denounced, Bill's experience is disregarded, and Ron pushes his agenda forward in South America, in Christless fashion, to establish ministry churches in alignment with him, with Anaheim, with the program - in the same spirit of the movement Bill Mallon reported 20 years earlier.

Bill Mallon and John Ingalls were compelled to meet and seek the Lord over their growing concerns.

John Ingalls in Talks with Bill Mallon

“In the following month, September 1987, due to my health, and also due to a burden to fellowship with Bill Mallon, a co-worker with whom I had an intimate relationship for twenty-four years, I decided to go to Atlanta, Georgia, for a two-week period of rest and fellowship. Bill had recently passed through sore trials and sufferings, and I hoped that our fellowship could render comfort and encouragement to him. We drove up to the nearby mountains and had a number of days opening to one another.

At that time I was entirely supportive to Brother Witness Lee and his ministry and work related to the “new way” that was being promoted. I therefore did my utmost to persuade Bill to visit Taiwan and participate in the full-time training. I felt that this might be the answer to his need. On four separate occasions during those days I attempted to convince Bill to take this step, but he steadfastly refused, affirming that he was not free or clear to do that.

During that time Bill explained to me how he had suffered in various ways by events that had transpired in recent months in the churches and in the work in the Southeast. I came away from our talks with one deep impression: Philip Lee was becoming increasingly involved in spiritual things concerning the Lord’s work, the churches, the elders, and the co-workers. I had already noticed this in Irving, Texas the preceding month. This, I felt, was completely untenable, incompatible with his position and person, and intolerable. Philip Lee was employed by his father, Witness Lee, to be the business manager of his office and was reportedly instructed to deal only with business affairs. He was totally unqualified both in position and character to touch spiritual matters related to the work of the Lord and the churches. I became alarmed and began to fear for the Lord’s testimony. With this burden I determined upon my return to Anaheim to fellowship with Godfrey Otuteye, who then was involved in coordinating with Philip Lee in the Living Stream Office. I wanted to frankly ask him about Philip’s role, expressing my alarm and concern”.

Discussion Concerning LSM Manager

Godfred had been an elder in the church in Irvine, California, for close to ten years, and had recently been appointed as an elder in Anaheim by Brother Witness Lee. Thus we had been put into a position of more intimate fellowship and coordination. I had known Godfred since 1972 and over the years had numerous occasions of fellowship with him. I respected him for his genuineness, wisdom, and devotion to the Lord. Hence, upon returning from Atlanta on Sept. 22, 1987, I made an appointment for dinner with Godfred on September 25, Friday evening.

We sat together in the restaurant, and after some general conversation, I said to him in a serious tone, “Godfred, I would like to ask you a question. Would you please tell me who Philip Lee is? It seems that he is being promoted and is going altogether too far in his involvement in the spiritual side of the work, greatly overstepping his position as a business manager. Have you noticed this? I myself could never agree with this.”

It seemed that my question took him by surprise. We had never discussed these matters before. He hesitated a few moments. Then, in a very grave tone, he replied, “John, the situation is very serious.” If he was surprised by my question, I was somewhat taken aback by his answer. Godfred continued, “I have seen and heard many things in the Living Stream Office in recent months. I cannot go into detail, but I can tell you there is much that is very serious and very wrong.” Then I began to be more alarmed and concerned. Godfred fully agreed that Philip Lee’s involvement in the work was way out of line, but he indicated that there were more serious things than that.

Two days later, on Sept. 27, the Lord’s Day, as we met in the Elders’ Room before the morning meeting on Ball Road, Godfred had a few moments alone with me, and he said, “John, it is very timely that you opened up to me the other night. Let me tell you that the whole situation is sick and corrupt. I have seen and heard too much.” Then I knew that we were really in trouble, though he did not mention any details or any names.

A Shocking Development
September 1987

On the following Tuesday, Sept. 29th, Godfred left for a business trip to Europe. On the next day, Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her. I had been acquainted with this sister for many years and knew her to be faithful, upright, and trustworthy; therefore, I took her word very seriously. I was amazed that she could put up with such conduct for so long. She stated that she tolerated it only for the sake of Brother Lee and his ministry. She said that she had no other recourse but to resign. I confirmed her intention.

That conversation utterly shocked me. I deeply felt that something must be done to acquaint Brother Lee with the situation and to let him know that we would not tolerate it. I obtained Godfred’s telephone number in Europe and called him as soon as the difference in time zones permitted, telling him the things that had come to my ears. Godfred listened and said that he already knew it. I was amazed. That night I considered what could be done. That we had to go to Brother Lee I was certain.



Link to John Ingalls' book, Speaking the Truth in Love.
www.twoturmoils.com/johningalls.pdf

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee may have lost half of the SoCal Recovery due to Philip's abusive streak... What we really needed to hear was a sobering repentance concerning how much damage Lee and son had wrought on God's people, complete with basic details. All Christians can understand that.

[Quote is from a different thread]

www.twoturmoils.com/ATrueManofDeath.pdf

[Indiana]

This restoration letter was read at a church meeting in Anaheim, August 22, 1993, although Philip had never repented for anything publicly or to anyone privately, certainly not elders, and, no sisters at LSM that those who were close to the Anaheim situation heard of. Also, no word was ever given publicly in the churches about Philip Lee’s major role in causing division, as graphically seen interwoven throughout the accounts of John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and John So.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/PhilipHis...ninAnaheim.pdf

[Lisbon]

Fair and simple, we were all conned. There is always a smart when you have to admit you were not that smart. I have been conned several times in my life and usually it involved my wife as well. We took our losses and forgot about it.

It was a little different here however because it involved our walk with God.

Beginning in 1972, we had just been enthralled with six months reading of Née.
We heard right at first "we read and study Née all the time." For one year maybe."
We just pay attention to the "pure" word of God. Really?

Witness Lee is just a simple poor Chinaman, no big deal.

I still remember the sister who spoke of WL as an apostle. I didn't like it but didn't hear it that much in 72 ,73. There were too many apostles near my business. I considered them all self appointed which I do 40 years later.

No high no low. Everyone can speak. We're all the same, equal before the Lord. Of course some more equal than others. I still can remember an elder remarking,"I didn't think "he" would make it." That had a terrible 'ring' to me. The church life was something you had to 'make?" I thought we were born into the church.

This all became the garlick room WL talked about so much. We were numbed, befuddled, just like Lee said we were. We were moo cows and we laughed as we were taken down the road of captivity. And we stayed down there for many years. Oh the mercy of the Lord!

Lisbon

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

This all became the garlick room WL talked about so much. We were numbed, befuddled, just like Lee said we were. We were moo cows and we laughed as we were taken down the road of captivity.

Let's take the blendeds for example. My feeling is if you remove them from the system; the garlic room they're in they become normal, respectable, and loving Christian brothers. In the garlic room, they're captives of the system. One that demands preservation of the ministry above all else.

I saw first hand over a period of years what happens to a brother when removed from the garlic room. After my uncle retired and moved to Central Washington, over a period of some years prior to his passing my uncle became more sensitive especially towards brothers who left the recovery several decades earlier.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's take the blendeds for example. My feeling is if you remove them from the system; the garlic room they're in they become normal, respectable, and loving Christian brothers. In the garlic room, they're captives of the system. One that demands preservation of the ministry above all else.

The only problem is that without the blendeds, they are normal, respectable, and loving Christians with no shepherd and no direction. All those that would likely be able to rise up to fill the void would be the reason there is a void. I fear that the blendeds are not the whole problem. It is also that those below them are caught in the system. If they had to go it on their own, could they? Some maybe could. But I wouldn't hold my breath for a lot of them. They would no longer have their direction and would simply become part of the shepherd-less flock.

[Indiana]

“Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ.” (W.L.) That is, until the resumption of his ministry in Shanghai when he began to use terms like “the minister of the age” for the first time.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/BobDanker...onoftheAge.pdf

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Indiana

“Brother Nee stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ.” (W.L.) That is, until the resumption of his ministry in Shanghai and he began to use terms like “the minister of the age” for the first time.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/BobDanker...onoftheAge.pdf

If it were not so sad it would indeed be funny. Our brother singles out Acts 26:19 which relates to the preceding verses that describe Paul's experience in the greatest detail and has nothing to do with "one vision for the age" nonsense. It could be that reading and comprehension (even apart from revelation) are not our brothers best gifts. It is this type of rationalization that is accepted hook-line-and-sinker by those whose minds are subverted from the true knowledge of God to something that is more in line with cult-thinking. Once the simple one accepts this bait then the storyteller can create any type of believable scene from types and shadows in the Old Testament.

Now we move on to Acts 9:15. "This man is A chosen vessel". This again has nothing to do with "unique", "one-and-only", "in every age" absurdities. Our brother has a great imagination - that's about it. Our brother disqualifies the exact meaning of the verse. God has many chosen vessels in every age. The evidence is quite obvious. Even apart from the fact that we ourselves are called chosen vessels.

I was listening to this weeks message on the CTM website. The brother who was speaking said something that startled me; "When we take our eyes off of Christ and put them only on the Church we become a cult". I use quotes but this is essentially what he stated. My dear blendeds you would do well to give heed to our simple brother's statement. He is a chosen vessel!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

I'm sure you all know this, but for the record "tell it to the church" is the last step in confronting a sinning brother (not keep your mouth shut). Thus the function of this forum is to tell it to the church in hopes of gaining repentance from our brothers.

Mat 18:15-17 (New American Standard Version):

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'm sure you all know this, but for the record "tell it to the church" is the last step in confronting a sinning brother (not keep your mouth shut). Thus the function of this forum is to tell it to the church in hopes of gaining repentance from our brothers.

Mat 18:15-17 (New American Standard Version):

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Two of my posts on Larry Chi book - 2009

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...21&postcount=3

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...25&postcount=7

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The (Larry Chi) book had been circulated among Chinese to some degree, but no one had it translated into another language, particularly English. I wondered how this could be that the book was written in the eighties and I come along in the 2000s and have it translated. The price was high ($680) and the Chinese could have done it themselves for the sake of English readers, but for some reason no one did. I was told it was a cultural matter just as there was no warning from the Chinese about Daystar at its inception.

I think it's pretty clear that this culture avoids airing dirty laundry at all costs. Even when the cost includes violating scripture: i.e. "tell it to the church". Anyone who hung around the LC for a while saw culture repeatedly trump scripture.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

I think it's pretty clear that this culture avoids airing dirty laundry at all costs. Even when the cost includes violating scripture: i.e. "tell it to the church". Anyone who hung around the LC for a while saw culture repeatedly trump scripture.

Avoiding airing dirty laundry has a pseudo-scriptural spin: "cover the brothers".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Two of my posts on Larry Chi book - 2009

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...21&postcount=3

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...25&postcount=7

What will DCP say?

I seem to recall years ago when LSM had the Manila 1990 meeting transcription. They wanted to make sure John So didn't have the last word. This tells me some of the reports that come out, LSM/DCP isn't refuting anything. They just want to put their own spin if they're not able to control the information.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Two of my posts on Larry Chi book - 2009

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...21&postcount=3

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...25&postcount=7

History of Witness Lee and the Local Churches
Larry Chi

On China Mainland Period

The testimony of the local churches was initiated by Watchman Nee in China during the 1920’s. At that time he attracted many people from different Christian denominations to switch over to follow the Lord and seek truth and salvation with him. With the blessing of the Lord many young people also joined in. They devoted all their life for the testimony of the church as well as for the gospel. Brother Nee was really a faithful servant of the Lord. He dispensed much resource and money for the church work, not only money donated by many church members but also his own money. He also devoted all his life and his effort to work for the Lord. He has never collected any registration fees or tuitions from the members, nor has he tried to sell any books or handouts to the members. He taught them all he knew and he worked very hard for the church.

He did not have much time to work for the Lord. For instance, he has taught the first class (training) for six months; he only started the second class for a period of time, but he has established a solid foundation for the testimony of the Lord. In 1939 there was a civil war in China and the mainland was taken over by the Communist government and brother Nee was arrested and put in jail because of his work for the church and finally he died after 20 years in confinement. Brother Nee had established a sound example for the followers and seeds he planted propagated and sprouted up in China as well as in many places all over the world. It is said there might be thirty to fifty million followers on the China mainland today of a work that began with Mr. Nee. The exact number nobody can tell. Only the Lord knows and in due time He will let us know how many there are.

We can tell that the Lord carried out the local church work thru many many people who followed Him. It is not any particular individual who can claim all the credit. For those people who faithfully serve the Lord, all the members will be able to see that. If there is any impostor or corrupted members who did inferior work then their true colors will be exposed sooner or later.

Section 2
The Full Period in Taiwan

The first period from 1938-65

As early as 1938 and even before that, a small group of brothers already started to have fellowship in Taipei. Bro Liu Kiang Yung___ was the first to start to serve full time. At that time he was still single, but he became a full time coworker. Bro Nee once went to Taipei in 1938. It is hard to tell if bro Liu went to Taipei from __or not. Back in spring of 1938 there were about 20 some members who got together in Taipei. At that time they assembled in a Japanese-style house on Shanghai Road in Taipei. Because it was a Japanses-style house the house had tatami, so the church members had to take their shoes off and sit on the floor. Many church members who came from the China mainland were not accustomed to this style, so they felt a little uncomfortable at the beginning. Actually, that house was donated by brother Nee and was used for assembly as well as for a lodging facility for the coworkers and church members who went to Taiwan.

After the middle of 1948 the political and military situation on the mainland of China changed rapidly. Many church members followed their schools, universities, government agencies, or the military to move over to Taiwan. As a result, many of these church members were spread out to all different parts of the island, to many different cities and towns. They went as far north as ____? Following th railroad. To the south of Gausheng? In September of the same year, ___and his family arrived to join the church assembly in Taipei. In November of the sam year ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___six brothers and their families went to Taipei from Shanghai on the same ship. Because of that the Taipei assembly increased rapidly to over 50 people. Also in 1948 ___went to Gaushen because of his job assignment? and teamed up with___?? married Dec 25 in Taipei. The church members took advantage of the new year holidays and they printed out many fliers, then went out into the busy streets to spread the gospel. They went to different sections of the city including the new part for the gospel and attracted many new members. In the spring of 1949, ____came to Taipei from the mainland and joined the congregation. At that time there were 150 people who had joined the congregation and the original Japanese house was not big enough for the congregation so often people had had to assemble in different places and in different assemblies. At that time, there were two members who were overseas Chinese from the Phiippines___ and bro ___. They went to buy a piece of propert, sect 2. A place to put a wooden struct that could accommodate 350 people. Afterwards that building was not big enough.and was rebuilt and expanded into a wooden structure that would accommodate 800 people. This is the current assembly hall number one located on Tien San Ban Liu.

Nee and Lee Come to Visit Taipei

At the beginning of 1949 brother Nee came to Taipei for the second time with the request of fellow members he has established five members___ ____ ____ _____ ____ to become the Taipei congregation elders. Three of these brothers worked for the church in Taipei on a full-time basis. In April of 1949 Mr. Lee and his family went to Taipei from China mainland. At that time he was very depressed. All the members of the congregation encouraged him from different directions and also coworkers took him to visit many members in the southern part of Taiwan.

At that time there were congregations established in many cities around the north –south railroad, such as ___ ___ ____ ____ ___ _____. His visits to these places helped him to recover from his depression. He became fully charged and ready to go again. Not much later, the construction of the number one assembly hall was completed. After a discussion anong fellow members it was decided to call the first all-Taiwan special congregation in Taipei on August 1, 1949. There were over 300 members who participated in this gathering. Among them there were about 70 coming from the central and southern part of Taiwan . There were about 30-40 people from denominations attending. And about 200 members coming from greater Taipei area. All these members were there long before Mr. Lee arrived in Taiwan. There were also approximately 150-200 members who did not make it to the special gathering. At that time there were about 500 members across the different parts of Taiwan. This is the very first period of church establishment and growth in Taiwan. This rapid growth of church work and the spread of the gospel brought more and more people to join the congregation. The work load increased at the same time. The Lord called many young people to come join the church and to serve. Indeed there were many young people, some of them having just graduated from college, while some were still in college. These young people decided to drop whatever they were doing to come work for the Lord. Because there were a lot of new people coming into the church, there was the need to have a full-time training. At that time many church members decided to ask Mr. Lee to take responsibility for the training exercise. . At that time there were about 100 church members, including some young people leaders from various parts of Taiwan who joined the training class. The training was quite successful. All the people who participated in the training became Mr. Lee’s special disciples. Also, because of this experience Mr. Lee established absolute authority over the people who had come to the training. Since many of them were leaders at different assemblies in various cities and towns in Taiwan, he could call on them to carry out many programs and projects. Due to this kind of cohesiveness, there was a period of very good cooperation among church members.

Although Taiwan is an island surrounded by ocean, it is a very open society, and the church members had the opportunity to communicate and have fellowship with other believers who were meeting in the denominations. And, many young people discovered that there are other groups who also work for the Lord. Their ideas were a little different from what they heard from their own church and leaders. So, many of them went to Mr. Lee and asked for a chance to have some fellowship and communication with other groups. With this repeated request, brother Lee agreed to invite brother Sparks from the UK to come to Taiwan to have a couple of special meetings. Through these special meetings, many church members in Taiwan learned many different teachings and different ideas and started to have questionings about Mr. Lee’s absolute authority. According to brother Lee, his greatest regret was to ask Mr. Sparks to come to Taiwan. Indeed, after Sparks’ visit, some of the coworkers started to have questions and started to split from the 100% followers of Mr. Lee.

As the church work went thru rapid expansion, the financial need and supply also had a big change. In the beginning, the congregation had fewer members and many of them didn’t have high paying jobs, so the church finances were rather difficult. But the increase with church members plus the whole economy in Taiwan had a big improvement and people had much better, high-paying jobs so the contribution to the church increased quite a bit.

Among the church members, it was a mostly informal and non-working procedure in handling financials. For instance, the full-time coworkers were told to handle themselves before the Lord according to their own conscience. Really there was nobody taking care of their living, but their assignment and place to work was assigned by chief coworkers. Whatever their assignment was, they had to accept, 100%. No arguments. And contributions from the donations coming in to the church for the work of the Lord was all collected under a special account and managed by the chief coworkers.

After many years of operation this kind of formal arrangement created some difficulties. For instance, many of the coworkers had a life that was very spartan and close to difficult. But the chief coworkers, because they had the authority to use the church funds, made some expenditures that were questionable.

Witness Lee Business Failures Disrupt the Church

Around 1959 Mr. Lee had some investment failures and he lost a great deal of money. This brought the first financial crisis to the church. All the donations and contributions from the church members were used, and still the church owed people a large amount of money. Because of this situation, brother Lee forced the elders to sell a piece of land belonging to the church in order to pay the debt. That piece of land was located on 19 East Road, section 4, and had been bought by the church to build a training center and a new assembly building. Because of that many coworkers and church members were especially unhappy about this fiasco. Mr. Lee knew this was something that he did wrong and because of that he went to the United States and stayed on the west coast.

After Mr. Lee left Taiwan, the church coworkers formed two sides. One side was Mr. Lee’s strong followers, while the other group had questions about some of Mr. Lee’s Lee’s activities. Those two groups had a strong difference of opinion, which greatly impacted the church activities and made much of the church work difficult to carry out. Finally, some of the coworkers who were Lee followers asked Mr. Lee to come back to Taiwan to resolve differences. In the summer of 1969. Lee came back to Taipei. He decided to get rid of those coworkers who disagreed with him. Consequently, there were 1000’s of people who left the congregation. At that time almost 30 % of the regular members left, a most serious situation was that about 80-90% of the young members who were college students left the church. This was a very bad example for the church in Taipei to have this type of cleansing massacre and also to establish factionism within the church. Moreover, there was clearly some tendency to promote individualism and worship of a certain idol.

There was another incident that happened toward the end of the 1950’s that involved Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia. Mr. Lee and some of the overseas coworkers developed some serious differences because the coworkers could not take Mr. Lee’s absolute authority. Everything was dictated by Mr. Lee, and he would not take any input from anybody. In addition some of the well-to-do church members were very unhappy about his handling of the financial matters. This was due to the fact that a lot of the money had been contributed by these church members, and Mr. Lee would handle the finances according to his own viewpoint. The overseas coworkers did not feel they could trust him anymore. Because of the differences they split up. Originally, the Philippines were very important for Mr. Lee because there were several well-to-do church members there who supported the church financially for a long time. So in 1960 the Manila church decided to sever relationships with Mr. Lee totally.

When Mr.Lee left Taiwan to the U.S. in 1960, it was not really that he went there to open up new frontier. Rather, it was because of his own personal failure in Taiwan that he escaped to the U.S. As he left Taiwan, the church work in Taiwan was in serious disarray. Also the Philippines work was split off. This was the first period of our history.

Second Period 1965-75

During the period that Mr. Lee left Taiwan beginning in 1960 till he came back to Taiwan in 1965 to carry out his cleansing exercise, the church work in Taiwan went through a very difficult time. Because of that, there was a lack of cooperation between the coworkers. However, ___ and ____were going to try their best to keep the church going. After the 1965 massacre ___ ____and ____ stayed with the church and tried their best to rebuild it. With the blessing of the Lord and the effort of the sweet brothers’ leadership, over a two or three year period the church membership grew a lot.

One summer in the Taipei area a camp was held and about a thousand young people came together. There were many children who came to join various activities at the camp as well. The church in different localities in Taiwan went through a rapid recovery period. Therefore, Mr. Lee set up a special international gathering in Taipei in 1968 and invited people from all over the Taiwan area to come to attend, as well as about 160 members from the U.S. and Canada, and another 100 or so from various Southeast Asia regions, Japan, and Europe.

The attendees at the gathering were very impressed to see how the members in Taiwan worked together to establish this beautiful picture and to increase the church membership, so they learned the practice carried out in Taiwan and went back to their own area and became the leaders and the backbone of their church in their own areas.

In the period of the late 60’s and early 70’s there was a period of recovery and growth of the church in Taipei. We can take a look at the reasons why there was such a successful growth.

1)At that time the leaders of the church work ___ ____ and ____ were not the strong leader type. In other words, they did not dictate. They worked together. They were not selfish. They did not have the desire to hold power in their hands. So under their leadership the coworkers worked together very smoothly and respected each other so that the work could be carried out.

2) there was an atmosphere of freedom within the church. Everyone had the right to speak out. They could ask questions and express their feelings. The elders and coworkers sometimes led the members to express themselves. So the fellowship among the members was open and very much a free-flow. There was no central authority figure to dictate anything. Neither was there anyone who was there to give the one and only teaching to all the members. Consequently, during the assembly there was a lot of fresh air blowing through the church.

3) The coworkers had the freedom to follow their interests and their strength. If someone was good at the gospel, then he would pursue in that area; if someone was good at working with the children, then he would be given opportunity to do that kind of work. If someone was good at taking care of the sick then he will be assigned to a hospital to work with sick people. Due to these factors, all the church members and coworkers had the chance to fulfill their interest and to do their best in the area where they have their strengths. People were more than happy to do their work, since they were not following orders from any dictators. They enjoyed having the chance serve the Lord.

4) All the churches in Taiwan started to push the family fellowship and leaders asked the church members to do whatever they could do to promote it. In the Taipei church ___ ___ ___ were the ones who were the strongest promoters of this exercise. In 1975 the Taipei church had 22 congregations, 77 assemblies, and over 200 family fellowship groups with over 1000 members. The family fellowship members carried out many fundamental gospel works. They had to have some basic training as a help to take care of the children, to teach them the hymns, and to encourage them to read their Bibles. There were many such activities among family members. At that time I was just married and my residence was within #17 assembly under #3 congregation. I was not a leader nor did I have any responsibility for the assembly fellowship. The brothers did invite me to participate in some of the trainings. There was no tuition to be paid and there was no need to buy any materials or handouts. All the people who participated were on a volunteer basis. People participated not because of any personal gain – they were not for money or fame. They were just there to serve the church, to serve the Lord. Everybody worked together just like a big happy family.

5) The remaining coworkers within the church tried very hard to rebuild the youth and children congregation because in 1965 we were massacred. The most damaged part of the church was the college and youth branch. Coworkers that were driven away included the youth leaders. There was a big loss to the church. In Taipei,___ and Tainan the youth work almost became a vacuum. Some of the people who served in small villages and in small towns were asked to go to Taipei, Tainan, and ___ to rebuild. Supposedly, they were very effective. Within a very short period of time they achieved something really amazing. For instance, in 1965 __ was assigned from __ to ___. When he first went over there with ___ and ___ they were looked at by some of the local young members as the running dogs after Mr. Lee. They were throwing eggs and tomatoes on them and yelling and screaming at them. The original youth leader ___was gone. But after ___ loving and patience and care, explaining what they were going to do, just like a miracle within a year members within __University built up from almost nothing to about 150, and the youth congregation in ____reached a new high Afterwards, br___ was assigned back to #3 assembly in Taipei and ___ was assigned to ___ to continue the task.

In another case, in the city of___there was a collection of colleges and universities in central part of Taiwan. ___worked in ___ for many years and he had a good following from the youth and college students in ___ but bec he left the church a lot of college students all disappeared with him. At that time ___ was assigned to __from ___ He was responsible for the church work in central Taiwan. ___ was responsible to serve the colleges and universities there. Both of them worked hard day and night with tender loving care and they rebuilt the ___church congregation.

In the 1965 massacre the third congregation under the Taipei church suffered very severe damage. There are two reasons for this.
1) one of the persons who was fired,___, was well-respected by all the church members young and old. His knowledge and his work ethic were very much appreciated. The saints were very angry to see what was meted out to him. So, many followed him to leave the church. 2) In the meantime there was a cult movement going on in Taipei that was promoted by a person named ___. It was very popular. Some of the church members who were very anxious to follow the gospel but did not have a good understanding of the truth were fooled by this cult movement and left the church to join that crowd. At that time,__was the only senior member who helped out in the hall 3 congregation. After he worked for a period of time and made very little progress he asked for help. He invited __ and ___. to come from Tainan to Taipei to help him work at meeting hall #3. With the three of them working together, hall 3 started to recover. Within a couple of years they made big progress. During the international special gathering in 1968, the Sunday morning gathering at hall 3 usually had more than 400 people attending. It was so full they had to add seats to the hallway. The youth fellowship usually had to be held in three separate locations - at assemblies 18, 19, and at meeting hall #3. Usually more than 350 people attended. Among them there were about 40-50 high school students, 150 junior high students and another 600-700 children gathered to have meetings in ten different locations. Brother fellowship and sister fellowship in Taiwan Normal University and National Taiwan University were established in 1967, as well.

___ ____ ____ ___ and many other brothers all came to join the church during this period of time. The three examples of congregations that were mentioned above in Tainan, Taichung, and Taipei were only examples of the rebuilding of the churches that took place. The rebuilding was a very broad movement It not only covered the colleges and universities, it was everywhere. Many students who lived on campus, and the teachers, the faculty, all joined in for the movement. The rebuilding not only existed on campus, but also in society in general. All participated in this effort. The coworkers provided proper training and guidance to the young people and showed them how to work with high school students and junior high children. The whole church environment was just like a big happy family. The older people took care of the young people and there was love and care for each other with no generation gap whatsoever. The older ones really loved the younger ones and the younger ones all respected the elders. There was nobody looking down on the younger people. And the younger people did not look at the older people as outdated or stubborn. All the people were working within the church. There was no concept of position or ranking. There was nobody playing tricks on anybody. So the church was really the witness of the kingdom of God. Everybody got a chance to fulfill or receive what he was looking for. Everyone had the blessing from the Lord. Simply put, during that time the coworkers working at Hall 3 in Taipei were___and his wife and ___. In addition, there was ___ ____ ____ ________ __. They all contributed heavily to the rebuilding and expansion of the #3 congregation. In addition to these coworkers, there were many, many other church members who all loved the Lord and the church and they all contributed their fair share of the work. There was no way we could give all the credit for the rebuilding and expansion to any one or two 8 brothers, or to any other church member. That is just not fair. Here we are only talking about one congregation. In looking at all the churches all over Taiwan, their expansion and growth could not be attributed to any individual. We could only give this glory to the Lord. This is his work, which has been accomplished under His blessing.

In the early 1960’s up to 1965 many churches in Southeast Asia drifted away from Taiwan, but after 1968 we started to re-connect with some of the churches in Taiwan to re-establish the fellowship. Many of them sent letters to Taiwan to ask some of the coworkers to go there to help them. Because of this, ___ ____ often went to Japan, Korea, and ___ later on became stationed in Japan on a long-term basis. He is still there as of today. ___ was sent to Malaysia and ___was sent to Indonesia and afterwards ___ __ went to Manila, and ____went to Thailand, and in addition there were other full-time coworkers or church members in various parts of Southeast Asia who came to Taiwan to join some of the church congregations to work as interns. They include ___ ___ from Indonesia and ___from the Philippines.

Glorious Atmosphere Did Not Last Long

Unfortunately the glorious atmosphere did not last very long. There was a big change in 1970. In the summer of 1970 there was a special international gathering in Los Angeles. There were about 100 members who came to join the gathering from the Far East, with about two-thirds of them coming from Taiwan. Most of them were the leading coworkers from various churches in Taiwan. In that special gathering, Mr. Lee used strong derogatory language to insult and degrade coworkers from Taiwan. He called them outdated and said all the churches from the Far East were outdated. There were two reasons for him to do so. 1) He wanted to use the free spirit and animated style of the American church members to shake up the members from the east. He wanted the Far East members to believe that the yelling, screaming and jumping up and down by the American church members was an expression that showed that the Holy Spirit had entered into them. He forced the Far East members to accept that they were outdated and that they ought to be ashamed. He wanted to re-establish his absolute authority and power over them. 2) He understood that the church members from the East were passive and submissive. If he could show the church members of the West that he could overpower the well-trained senior church members from the East he could establish his power and authority over the church members in the West also.

What Lee did in his special gathering created two serious consequences. 1) After this special international gathering, the church members went back to Taiwan and tried very hard to transplant what they saw in the U. S. into Taiwan and thus created much conflict and confusion for quite a while. Many traditional church members in Taiwan could not stand the yelling and screaming in the meetings and started to drift away. Many neighbors next to the church could not stand the noise either and were thus violated. This destroyed the good image the church had established with the general public over the years. There were many arguments and conflicts with the outside community. As a result of all the conflict and confusion, there was a great negative impact on the church work.

-

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee Business Failures Disrupt the Church

Around 1959 Mr. Lee had some investment failures and he lost a great deal of money. This brought the first financial crisis to the church.

I think Mr. Lee was trying to follow Watchman Nee in speculative ventures; Nee had done this and succeeded, right? So this kind of business experience verified that Mr. Nee was "God's special anointed" and "the hand of God was with him" in commercial ventures. Mr. Lee then tried the same and flopped.

Then, interestingly, when Lee flopped it was the church's problem, not his! Lee's business failure brought financial crisis to the church, not to Lee.

Nice gig if you can get it. If you win, you win, and if you lose, Bailout Central steps in and covers the loss. So why not gamble? That was the bait dangling in front of Witness Lee and he took it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Nice gig if you can get it. If you win, you win, and if you lose, Bailout Central steps in and covers the loss. So why not gamble? That was the bait dangling in front of Witness Lee and he took it.

Sounds no different than the politicians on Wall Street.

Can someone tell me about the history of LSM? If possible I would like to know when the original Stream Publishers became LSM.

Thanks

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Can someone tell me about the history of LSM? If possible I would like to know when the original Stream Publishers became LSM.

Thanks

By all indications, the transition from The Stream Publishers to Living Stream Ministry more or less coincided with the Daystar collapse.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Ricky,P

Thanks to open forums like this one local church members are far less uniformed and the truth is far less suppressed. It's probably the younger more techy members that have made their way to this forum and that's a good thing because the older ones are probably far too brainwashed by Lee and the blended bros to see what's going on out here in the real world.

And that is what baffles me. Since the major part of their recruitment is focused on smart, young, college students; it should be highly probable that these individuals would Google "Witness Lee", "Local Church", "Christians on Campus"... and do some research. I know that would be the first thing I would do. The LSM philosophy may focus more on a certain type of person that is somewhat insecure to begin with. Otherwise, they would not be able to retain anyone. These people should be smart enough to realize they are getting themselves into an authoritative system: The ministry being more important than the headship of Christ.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

And that is what baffles me. Since the major part of their recruitment is focused on smart, young, college students; it should be highly probable that these individuals would Google "Witness Lee", "Local Church", "Christians on Campus"... and do some research. I know that would be the first thing I would do.

From what I have heard firsthand and from others are the LC brothers stressing against the internet. Truth is the system the LC/LSM is in wants to be the ones controlling the flow of information instead of reacting to it.

[NewManLiving]

But that is what puzzles me. These are new recruits. They are not familiar with their new environment and therefore not yet sold on the LSM bill of goods. If someone told me not to go on the internet because it is "negative", that would immediately raise red flags. Why should any group be afraid of the Internet unless they are hiding something. I would like to think that young college students have at least a little common sense.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

By all indications, the transition from The Stream Publishers to Living Stream Ministry more or less coincided with the Daystar collapse.

Great observation!

Time wise, it was the mid-70's, about the same time W. Lee moved out of Los Angeles, hoping for a fresh start in Anaheim, Orange County.

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

Thanks to open forums like this one local church members are far less uniformed and the truth is far less suppressed. It's probably the younger more techy members that have made their way to this forum and that's a good thing because the older ones are probably far too brainwashed by Lee and the blended bros to see what's going on out here in the real world.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

I used to get really frustrated that TLR leading brothers didn't want to talk about anything they had done that I took issue with, even when I tried to have open, honest, mutual fellowship with them (they shut me down in the same way).

Then a fellow believer pointed out that I had tried to do everything within my power to follow scriptural reconciliation practice, and reminded me of the following verses:

Romans 12:17-19 (New American Standard Bible):

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

This really helped me to finally let go and move on with life in fellowship with Christians outside of TLR. I had done as much as depended upon me to be at peace, and they weren't open to it. Now it is up to the Lord to judge.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by JJ

I used to get really frustrated that TLR leading brothers didn't want to talk about anything they had done that I took issue with, even when I tried to have open, honest, mutual fellowship with them (they shut me down in the same way).

Then a fellow believer pointed out that I had tried to do everything within my power to follow scriptural reconciliation practice, and reminded me of the following verses:

Romans 12:17-19 (New American Standard Bible):

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

This really helped me to finally let go and move on with life in fellowship with Christians outside of TLR. I had done as much as depended upon me to be at peace, and they weren't open to it. Now it is up to the Lord to judge.

Hi JJ, I want to be clear about what you mean by paying back evil for evil. Do you possibly mean that is what I have done over the years in addressing the words and conduct of certain brothers? Do you think that is what Jane and John were doing in their book? John Meyer did in his? Nigel in his writing, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So? I would say that in all these examples they were simply giving testimony before God and man of their experience and observation in their Local Church life. Without malice in their heart.

I think you agree, but that you came to a point, where I may be now, to turn things over to the Lord of all who knows our concerns, and theirs...

And, "If possible, so far as it depends on [us], be at peace with all men."

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Hi JJ, I want to be clear about what you mean by paying back evil for evil. Do you possibly mean that is what I have done over the years in addressing the words and conduct of certain brothers? Do you think that is what Jane and John were doing in their book? John Meyer did in his? Nigel in his writing, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So? I would say that in all these examples they were simply giving testimony before God and man of their experience and observation in their Local Church life. Without malice in their heart.

I think you agree, but that you came to a point, where I may be now, to turn things over to the Lord of all who knows our concerns, and theirs...

And, "If possible, so far as it depends on [us], be at peace with all men."

You are correct about why I cited that verse, Indiana. Asking brothers to review their actions or teachings in light of scripture is certainly not rendering evil.

Neither was I suggesting any course of action regarding your web sites or participation on this forum (your writings have helped many!) ... just a verse that helped me emotionally give the situation up to the Lord .

[Indiana]

delete please

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by JJ

You are correct about why I cited that verse, Indiana. Asking brothers to review their actions or teachings in light of scripture is certainly not rendering evil.

Neither was I suggesting any course of action regarding your web sites or participation on this forum (your writings have helped many!) ... just a verse that helped me emotionally give the situation up to the Lord .

http://www.lsmradio.com/audio/stm-mp3/acts/acts_37.mp3

This morning I listened to this 25 minute LSM radio tape on the book of Acts and the transfer from the Old Testament dispensation of the law to the New Testament age of grace; and then the transfer from Peter's ministry with the spread of the gospel as a "fisher of men", to Paul's ministry as a "chosen vessel", a container, for dispensing the riches of Christ into the believers for the building up of church, the Body of Christ.

So good! But we must consider more than the truth of the word of God, and look at the actuality also.


www.lordsrecovery.us


Before that short tape, I read about Witness Lee's problem he ran into with T. A. Sparks as they appreciated each others' view of Christ immensely but were not able to agree on the ground of the church. (Col. Life Study 16) When they focused on Christ they were one.


"My experience with Brother T. Austin-Sparks illustrates how persistently some avoid the church matter. At our invitation, he came to Taiwan in 1955. We had a wonderful time together as he ministered on Christ. He could clearly echo what we had seen about Christ. In 1957 he came to Taiwan a second time. On this visit he touched the church ground, the standing of the church, in a negative way. In 1958 I accepted his invitation to visit him in England. During the days we were together, we had many long conversations about the church. However, he could not change my mind, and I could not change his concept. He tried his best to avoid the subject of the church, but my concept was that we must labor for the building up of the churches. His intention was to convince us that we should give up the ground of the church. But I pointed out to him that it was impossible for us to have the church practically without the ground of the church. Brother Sparks tried to assure me that he was not opposed to the church. He went on to tell me that during the early years of his ministry, he was invited to speak in Edinburgh. When he spoke about Christ, the meeting hall was crowded, and the audience was responsive. But when he spoke about the church, the number of people decreased. This caused him to feel that it was not profitable for him to speak on the church.

I went on to ask Brother Sparks how we could practice the principles we both had seen concerning the Lord’s Body. He admitted that these principles could not be put into practice in the denominations. But he would not admit that they could be put into practice only on the proper ground of the church. Instead, he emphasized the fact that the church can be produced only by much prayer and through the Spirit. Then I said to him, “Do you think that so many churches on the island of Taiwan did not all come into existence by prayer and through the Spirit?” I asked him what a group of saints should do after they had prayed regarding the church. Still he would not admit that they should take the standing of the church on the ground of oneness. He simply said that they needed to be assured that any move they made was of the Spirit. This was the conclusion of our conversation about the church.

I tried my best to convince him concerning the church, and he tried his best to avoid the church. Eventually, neither of us would change our position."

[Indiana]

Question asked of Watchman Nee in China 1947
“If a servant of the Lord from another Christian group gives us more or higher spiritual light, do we receive it?” Watchman Nee thought for a while and then said: “God did not give us all the light. If somebody gives us more light, we should be very glad to receive it!”
[/COLOR]

from an email correspondence - it was bcc'd to 99 recipients, some current and former leaders included.

Agape Leadership
http://www.amazon.com/Agape-Leadersh.../dp/0936083050
CLICK on the picture.

Of course brothers, we all know we are short, including me, that is for certain. I don't know anyone who has failed more than me. But we can be honest with ourselves and with one another concerning the oneness and the price our Lord paid "that they all may be one..."

You wondered, "How would the Local Church have been today had Witness Lee rather followed the lead of the Englishman [Robt Chapman] instead of his beloved Irishman? [Darby]"

Far different. We would not have wonderful ministry churches, as now prevail, rather than love that should prevail, according to WL's own word (below). When love PREVAILS all the members are included and built up that life could prevail also and a way be opened up into the hearts of new ones.

Our brother Witness Lee knew the great lack that "knowing all the mysteries" cannot replace. Darby came to realize this also - both of them at least as they approached the last lap in their ministry. Chapman, however, lived this way all through his Christian life, according to all accounts, including Darby's. He was known as the apostle of love among the Brethren and elsewhere.


Quotes from A Word of Love 1996

"From the beginning of brother Lee's ministry in the United States clear to the end of it, although we heard marvelous things, we heard comparatively little about love. Near the end of his ministry, however, he did speak more concerning the need for love among us. He said, "In the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love".

"He actually began to speak in this way starting in 1988 and, intermittently, to the end of his ministry, addressing the elders on a number of occasions more definitely about this need. He said, "according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs." He also stated, "only love prevails" and that "love is the most excellent way". He said it is the way to be an elder or a co-worker, and that it is the way to handle the saints. He proclaimed that it is the way to do everything and to be anything in the church life."

"Many of you are good speakers, knowing the higher truths. The truths we hold are much higher than those in Christianity. However, we do not have fruit because we are lacking in the Father's loving and forgiving heart and the Son's shepherding and seeking spirit. We condemn and regulate others rather than shepherd and seek them. We are short of love and shepherding. These are the vital factors for us to bear fruit, that is, to gain people. I am very concerned for our full-time training. Do we train the young ones to gain people or to regulate people? We have to reconsider our ways, as Haggai said (1:5). Our way is not right; something is wrong." (Used in In the Wake of the New Way, 2002)

I like the truth; and truth should prevail, as well as love, wherever believers assemble, for the building up and the oneness in the Body of Christ. Praise the Lord!

I don't know if you have considered the content of these websites recently, ______, but it is what I felt to put down in a spirit of fellowship for sharing publicly and individually to past and present local church members and to inquiring ones about the Local Churches.


www.lordsrecovery.us

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Brother Indeed
http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/6363

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Although there are legitimate reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Brother Lee soberly encouraged a blending core of brothers, in the last year of his life, to examine themselves, and their history of receiving believers. Has it been according to Christ alone?

Was Witness Lee's receiving of believers according to Christ alone?

My letter to the leaders that began this thread has never been answered by them. Now that letter is on a website called leadersofthelordsrecovery.us and includes reports of their history through a transparent lense.


Excerpt

"....There are many members, former or current, who hope leaders would give an honest evaluation of their past - and their present. Indeed, the aforementioned brothers of repute have also earned a reputation of another sort, warranting our sober attention as to why examination of Local Church leadership is called for and necessary, especially since this group of associated churches believe they are the true expression of the Body of Christ - whose leaders represent God and His government on the earth today."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Brother Lee soberly encouraged a blending core of brothers, in the last year of his life, to examine themselves, and their history of receiving believers. Has it been according to Christ alone?

Are you serious?

These Blendeds have never "examined themselves" regarding receiving believers.

On the contrary, they have rejected all of Brazil and all of the Great Lakes Area.

It's obvious why they expelled Titus Chu. He would have gone to Anaheim and "drained the swamp."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

These Blendeds have never "examined themselves" regarding receiving believers.

On the contrary, they have rejected all of Brazil and all of the Great Lakes Area.

It's obvious why they expelled Titus Chu. He would have gone to Anaheim and "drained the swamp."

I disagree Ohio. The blendeds have no problem in receiving.....conditionally that is. Certain brothers need to know in order to be received, they need to submit.
Indiana is right. Not just blendeds, but generally responsible brothers believe they are the "true expression of the Body of Christ - whose leaders represent God and His government on the earth today."

Because of this concept lies the attitude, submission is only in one direction. To them as brothers leading localities and leading the recovery. Also because of this concept representing God's government on earth, what humility they had as brothers has been replaced with pride.
How is this attitude any different than divine right of kings that existed with European monarchies over the centuries? In principle it's the same. They don't answer to man, only to God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I disagree Ohio. The blendeds have no problem in receiving.....conditionally that is. Certain brothers need to know in order to be received, they need to submit.

Expulsion, rejection, excommunication, shunning, disfellowshipping, and quarantining could all be defined as "conditional receiving."

Any exclusive group like the LC's can claim that they are inclusive, and that they are open to receive anyone, if ... with their fingers crossed behind their back ... these ones meet all of their written and unwritten conditions.

With Brazil and the GLA, notice that the mandatory "conditions" of acceptance changed over time, the primary requirement, of course, was to submit to LSM's ever changing "conditions" of acceptance.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

My letter to the leaders that began this thread has never been answered by them. Now that letter is on a website called leadersofthelordsrecovery.us and includes reports of their history through a transparent lense.

Why can't they respond? If your website material is slanderous and misrepresenting, they could have it shut down with a lawsuit. I already know when you offered to visit DCP in person, they became conveniently unavailable. Perhaps they know you have done your homework and it's better not to contend.

[Indiana]

Seeing the Dignity of Authority in the Body

Galatians 2

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. 12 For before some came from James, he continually ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to shrink back and separate himself, fearing those of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away in their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all,....

http://www.twoturmoils.com/SeeingDig...yintheBody.pdf

[TLFisher]

It is no coincidence I named my second son Nathan.

When it comes to the doctrine and practice of deputy authority, there is no place for the role of the prophet such as Nathan. Concerned brothers whether they be big potatoes or small potatoes within their function in the local churches, should they exercise their function as a prophet, the typical reaction is to "shoot the messenger". In principle it is not much different from 1 Kings chapter 18.

As Indiana linked to his post,

"To be sure, the Local Churches do have a record of colossal “missteps” and historic cover-ups unaccounted for in their leadership."

"In the kingdom of Witness Lee and the blending brothers there is no Nathan. http://lsmradio.org/audio/genesis.html pgm #43 Genesis
Dick Taylor: “If you in a sense are exercised to be blind to the mistakes of those who have authority among you - this is God’s government! - just exercise to be blind and keep enjoying Christ”… not that there isn’t any immorality or idol worship…"

Based on current practices, the prophet Nathan would have found himself quarantined for going against the deputy authority.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Seeing the Dignity of Authority in the Body

Galatians 2

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. 12 For before some came from James, he continually ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to shrink back and separate himself, fearing those of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away in their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all,....


http://www.twoturmoils.com/SeeingDig...yintheBody.pdf

Thanks for continuing to sound the call to repentance among leaders of TLR, Indiana. It is interesting that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee made a doctrine of not "exposing" failures of leaders based on one Old Testament circumstance (Noah's drunkenness), when they preached not to do that (make a doctrine from one verse). Thankfully both Old and New Testaments show us better, healthier, and humble way for leaders to be confronted with their shortcomings vs truth, and move forward in repentance.

I prayed afresh for this to happen, for the sake of our brothers and sisters trapped in a system of error.

[Indiana]

This letter had gone out to elders in 2006 after many other much more-detailed attempts at communication had been made.


January 2006

To elders and saints:

EXCERPT

"My ordeal over the reaction of elders to my written materials began in January 2001 with Dan Towle; it is now reaching the five-year mark January 28, 2006. There should be a consummation at this time. The ordeal with Joel Kennon is reaching the ten-year mark January 23, 2006. What shall I do with the matters I have fully tried to convey and bring into fellowship? I will look to the Lord for the answer, and I also hope for brothers, fellow members of the Body, to respond in a spirit of fellowship to this current fellowship that I offer." (2006)

http://lordsrecovery.us/MyTestimonytoEldersJan06.pdf

Hi, is it appropriate here to ask concerning what happened to Gene Gruhler, why he left Anaheim? And what happened to Dan Towle, that he left Fullerton and is apparently not meeting?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, is it appropriate here to ask concerning what happened to Gene Gruhler, why he left Anaheim? And what happened to Dan Towle, that he left Fullerton and is apparently not meeting?

As you may or may not know, Gene Gruhler was an Elder in Anaheim back in the 70s. At some point he moved to Denver, presumably to function as the lead elder there. I believe this would have been sometime after the Max Rapoport situation in 1978. After departing Anaheim, Max and his family moved to the Denver area. There was a lot of disturbance and turmoil in the Church in Denver at that point. Eventually a couple of the Elders and a large portion of the congregation "left" the Church in Denver. It was at that point, I believe Gene Gruler came for his first stint in Denver.

After the turmoil and division of the late 80s in Southern California (involving John Ingalls et al) Witness Lee asked Gene Gruhler to return from Denver to Anaheim. (ostensibly to replace Ingalls, Knoch et al) At some point (memory fails me on exact year) Gruhler again returned to Denver where he has been ever since. For his first stint Gruhler was naturally the lead elder in the church in Denver. Upon his return, and more so in later years, Gene became what could be described as a "mentor" and advisor of the existing elders. In recent years Mary Gruhler's heath has become quite serious and Gene has been relegated to her full-time care. I don't believe he has attended meetings on a regular basis in quite a while.

As far as Dan Towle, I have not heard anything about his situation. At one time he was one of the principals of DCP. I don't think his name appears anymore related to DCP. I would be very surprised if he left the Local Church. Could you please be a little more specific on where you heard this information?
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At some point (memory fails me on exact year) Gruhler again returned to Denver where he has been ever since. -

I heard (~AD 2004) that, after Lee passed, some of the Blendeds in Anaheim felt GG was "too legalistic," and asked him to leave, at which point many were "happy" when he was gone.

Thanks for your input. Yes, I heard the same concerning Gene Gruhler, but WL was still alive when he left. Concerning Dan Towle, something happened and he left Fullerton and supposedly is not meeting anymore. But I don´t know any details. He might be living in Phoenix now, according to some basic name searches on the net.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I heard (~AD 2004) that, after Lee passed, some of the Blendeds in Anaheim felt GG was "too legalistic," and asked him to leave, at which point many were "happy" when he was gone.

According to Norm Minahan, he had a different perspective via posts from thebereans.net:

"Here is how I understood what took place related to GG.

GG signed the letter of quarantine related to Philip. I have good reason to believe GG was the main promoter of that letter.

I believe it was late 1996 in Anaheim GG read a letter removing that quarantine and then one announcing his moving to Denver.

Here is something which I had posted earlier on another thread:

Another very interesting event transpired shortly before Br. Lee’s death. Two announcements were made after a meeting. First, a letter was read by Gene Gruhler which reinstated Phillip Lee into the church fellowship. Second, Gene announced his moving to Denver. To most this was coincidental.

After GG was gone you began to hear, behind the scenes, the joy from some of the blended speakers that he was finally gone. Ed Marks spoke some of the strongest words. There was no love lost.

Eventually after Br. Lee’s departure there was a reassigning of the regions of the work to brothers. GG had always taken care of the Mountain States. Now, even though he was living in Denver, Mel Porter was the new worker to oversee that region.

Four years ago, while in the Denver area doing research for a book, I visited Br. Gene, not related to the book. He did not speak about the things that transpired in Anaheim. He has very high standards for himself before the Lord. There was only one little sentence of three words spoken at the very end when I was leaving. I realized from them he had been maneuvered out of Anaheim with the view to purge him out"

[BeardedFool]

I can't help but see the parallels between the leadership of the Lord's Recovery from the 30's to today and the leadership of the Soviet party. Especially the Moscow show trials and the tools used to remove leaders that were not sufficiently loyal to the current party in power.

[Weighingin]

Yes,
That is what I heard also about Dan Towle. But no details nor confirmation from anyone who would know or anyone talking to anybody who would know.