Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee Business Failures Disrupt the Church

Around 1959 Mr. Lee had some investment failures and he lost a great deal of money. This brought the first financial crisis to the church.

I think Mr. Lee was trying to follow Watchman Nee in speculative ventures; Nee had done this and succeeded, right? So this kind of business experience verified that Mr. Nee was "God's special anointed" and "the hand of God was with him" in commercial ventures. Mr. Lee then tried the same and flopped.

Then, interestingly, when Lee flopped it was the church's problem, not his! Lee's business failure brought financial crisis to the church, not to Lee.

Nice gig if you can get it. If you win, you win, and if you lose, Bailout Central steps in and covers the loss. So why not gamble? That was the bait dangling in front of Witness Lee and he took it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Nice gig if you can get it. If you win, you win, and if you lose, Bailout Central steps in and covers the loss. So why not gamble? That was the bait dangling in front of Witness Lee and he took it.

Sounds no different than the politicians on Wall Street.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds no different than the politicians on Wall Street.

It's also nice to have a church in your pocket. Likewise, if you get caught with your hand in a vise, the church deems you Too Big To Fail and comes to your financial rescue. Certainly this was the case with Lee & Fam, on numerous occasions. If anyone loses his money, bad for him. If Lee loses money, bad for the church.

And the real rub is that the ones who knew what Lee did, back in Taipei, sat by quietly when he drummed up the USA saints for $$ for Daystar. They knew exactly what was going on and they said nothing. What a shame.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

And the real rub is that the ones who knew what Lee did, back in Taipei, sat by quietly when he drummed up the USA saints for $$ for Daystar. They knew exactly what was going on and they said nothing. What a shame.

Too bad the Internet wasn't around back in the 1960s/70s for this Larry Chi to inform us gullible Americans about the things Witness Lee had already pulled back in the Far East. Of course it would have taken tremendous courage to blow the whistle on Lee at that point, for he had already obtained near-idol status among the earliest brothers meeting in LA. Of course there was the language barrier, but there were plenty of English speaking brothers in Taiwan who could of translated for him.

I would love to get a hold of the entire book that he supposedly wrote. There is at least one forum member who could translate it for us. Maybe Indiana could find out how we could obtain a copy.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Too bad the Internet wasn't around back in the 1960s/70s for this Larry Chi to inform us gullible Americans about the things Witness Lee had already pulled back in the Far East.

I would love to get a hold of the entire book that he supposedly wrote.
-

So there is more to this book?

Any info on who this Larry Chi was?

How about a "fill-in-the-blank" version with names inserted. At least Anderson's ToG had fictitious names consistent throughout.

[UntoHim]

Two posts by Indiana way back in 2009. I don't remember these or the Larry Chi letter. I must of been out sick that day!

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.twww.twoturmoils.com/TaipeiHistory.pdf

Larry Chi wrote a book that included the history of the church in Taipei and some other churches in Taiwan, after he left the recovery in 1985, (approximately). The book included a word about the young Titus Chu who had come onto the scene and became involved in giving training sessions, and became a concern to others, including Witness Lee. He is still a concern, whether or not it should be so great as "advertised".

The word about him is not included in the link above; but some very interesting historical accounts are given, including what is referred to as the 1965 massacre, which should relate to the 1966 so-called rebellion.

I can't confirm Larry Chi's accuracy, but he was certainly burdened to give his viewpoints, based on his experience and observation. He was in his 80s when I contacted him last in CA, both by phone and email, 5 years ago. He was referred to me by another dear Chinese brother in his 80s, from Sydney, who has since passed away. Both brothers were very much concerned for the developments that took place before them in the recovery under the leadership of Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by Indiana

I received two copies of the book from Larry Chi, written in Chinese. This might have been in 2003. Just part of it was on the history and I had that part alone translated by a Chinese professional. The rest of the book was on teachings, which I was not interested in at the time, and it would have been far to expensive to translate. The book is not online anywhere.

The two copies of the book are in the hands of two Chinese brothers, one of them being a brother who runs the concerned brothers site. He could confirm the word spoken about Titus, which for some reason is missing from the document I posted. I must have removed that speaking for some reason at one time, but haven't been able to retrieve the information.

The book had been circulated among Chinese to some degree, but no one had it translated into another language, particularly English. I wondered how this could be that the book was written in the eighties and I come along in the 2000s and have it translated. The price was high ($680) and the Chinese could have done it themselves for the sake of English readers, but for some reason no one did. I was told it was a cultural matter just as there was no warning from the Chinese about Daystar at its inception. Don Hardy had mentioned this that the Chinese saints, including Samuel Chang, could have given the history of WL's failed business ventures in the Far East and warned at least the elders in Southern CA who were cooperating with the hype for Daystar. Don said not a word of warning was given and that the brothers would have stopped him had they known.

What Ohio said about Titus likening WL to a father and giving him a pass at every turn is the heighth of cultural interference with God's moving and working in the Body in genuine display of spiritual authority and activity. In this matter I do not appreciate Titus Chu and the passivity of those under his influence in the GLA, as they do make strange bedfellows with those on LaPalma avenue in preserving the lies that prevail in the churches, and in keeping their Idol shiny, clean, and APPROVED - instead of smashing it into a thousand pieces.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any info on who this Larry Chi was?

Sounds as if he was an elder in the Church in Taipei. Perhaps until the 1980's.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So there is more to this book?

I'm sure there is and likely to expose LSM more as a family business than as a non-profit business.
I had heard for years what happened in North America was just the tip of the iceberg and much more happened in Taiwan, Southeast Asia, and China.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds no different than the politicians on Wall Street.

Yes, I referenced the 2008 financial scandal of Wall Street deliberately.

The question for me, which can be arguably traced back to Genesis Chapter 6 is, "Who watches the Watchers?" Or, who judges the judge, when that person judges wrongly?

The USA political system was set up with "checks and balances", because it was known that men, even leaders, were fallible creatures. The Judicial System watches the Legislators, the Legislators appoint the Judiciary, the people vote for the Legislators etc.

In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders". There should be covering of the inadequacy and frailty of human psyche and flesh; nonetheless there isn't and shouldn't be covering for evil. Darkness should be uprooted, exposed and expelled. The light shines and the darkness cannot overcome it. The church and its citizens should be holy, just as our God is holy.

Originally Posted by Acts 19:18

Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done.

Obviously the system set up by Nee and Lee has no checks and balances, no accountability. The Leaders of the Lord's Recovery demand unquestioning submission, and absolute silence from the proletariat... Indiana's crime was his unwillingness to silence and hide what wasn't convenient to LSM's 'official' narrative. There was nepostism, favoritism, bias, cover-ups, financial impropriety, whitewashing (lies), political maneuverings, and more. So, his final recourse was to tell it to the church.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes, I referenced the 2008 financial scandal of Wall Street deliberately.

The question for me, which can be arguably traced back to Genesis Chapter 6 is, "Who watches the Watchers?" Or, who judges the judge, when that person judges wrongly?

The USA political system was set up with "checks and balances", because it was known that men, even leaders, were fallible creatures. The Judicial System watches the Legislators, the Legislators appoint the Judiciary, the people vote for the Legislators etc.

In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders". There should be covering of the inadequacy and frailty of human psyche and flesh; nonetheless there isn't and shouldn't be covering for evil. Darkness should be uprooted, exposed and expelled. The light shines and the darkness cannot overcome it. The church and its citizens should be holy, just as our God is holy.

The Leaders of the Lord's Recovery demand unquestioning submission, and absolute silence from the proletariat... Indiana's crime was his unwillingness to silence and hide what wasn't convenient to LSM's 'official' narrative. There was nepostism, favoritism, bias, cover-ups, financial impropriety, whitewashing (lies), political maneuverings, and more. So, his final recourse was to tell it to the church.

Keep this post in mind saints. Aron encapsulates much of the whole of a huge problem, as many former and some current members know or have right to suspect.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

The USA political system was set up with "checks and balances", because it was known that men, even leaders, were fallible creatures. The Judicial System watches the Legislators, the Legislators appoint the Judiciary, the people vote for the Legislators etc.

Actually, there is at least one place where the checks and balances are relatively incomplete. That is the pinnacle of the judiciary. The top spots within the judiciary cannot be challenged other than by appeal back to the judiciary. While the administration can appoint, and the Senate confirm, no one can stand against them.

Well, not entirely. Technically, the judiciary cannot do anything that is not carried out by the administration. But no one has the gumption to test that. Therefore there is no check against the judiciary once it is in place. Only death changes things.

Now do not suppose that I think there is any very useful method of achieving that bit of balance. Simply refusing to execute the court's order is potentially whimsical. Alternately, Congress could step in and declare that aspects of a ruling are beyond the jurisdiction of the court. But what stops that from becoming another political whimsy? In short, there is no simply answer. The checks and balances ultimately have a stopping point unless one or two branches are willing to tell the third to take a hike. The President can veto. Congress can override a veto. Laws can be redrafted to fit within the parameters the court allows, but no one dares tell them that the vote of the people, through their representatives, overrides them.

I think the court would declare that the people would have to declare a constitutional convention to override them.

Effectively a veto-proof system for them.

I think there is a problem. But I've not seen a workable solution.

[TLFisher]

Attached is a short one page article I found. I don't know if it's been posted already.

[TLFisher]

Apparently the Taipei history Indiana went to the expense to have translated, someone took the translated content and had translated into Japanese:

http://www.geocities.jp/lee_localchu...taipei60s.html

[Indiana]

http://www.twoturmoils.com/TheMinist...nceptToday.pdf

The vision Brother Lee started with was not the same as he introduced later in making dramatic changes similar to what Nee had done in China. At this point in each of their ministries their designation as a minister of the age was about to appear.

Tremendous reinforcement of this view of Nee and Lee came by their own church messages, special elders’ trainings, and by key people who supported them. Their measure of authority was strengthened and broadened greatly over the churches and the elders. Ready submission among the elders to the apostle figure was expected, in order to reach his goals.

Thus, the churches were in their hand and they were fixed on their apostle and his leading, dependent on him for their direction to a large extent.

The minister of the age concept did not exist until Nee introduced it, and, when the time was ripe, Lee resurrected it and ministered it to the churches, especially implanting it into the minds of attendees of intensified training meetings, regional and international.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders". There should be covering of the inadequacy and frailty of human psyche and flesh; nonetheless there isn't and shouldn't be covering for evil. Darkness should be uprooted, exposed and expelled. The light shines and the darkness cannot overcome it. The church and its citizens should be holy, just as our God is holy.

Obviously the system set up by Nee and Lee has no checks and balances, no accountability. The Leaders of the Lord's Recovery demand unquestioning submission, and absolute silence from the proletariat... Indiana's crime was his unwillingness to silence and hide what wasn't convenient to LSM's 'official' narrative.

The whole LSM/LC system is predicated on men being cowards. As soon as a brother like Indiana won't cater to bullies, they just can't have that. The expectation is for Indiana "just submit to the brothers" (i.e. be a coward).

As I emphasized from Aron's post, "In spiritual, Christian affairs, Jesus allowed for checks and balances: i.e. "tell it to the church"; as did Paul's "receiving accusations against elders"."
The system LSM/LC operate in have negated all checks and balances in favor of the deputy authority doctrine. As much as they claim in their self-proclaimed theocracy that they are God's government, all I see is a cesspool of unrighteousness, deception, and misdirection. Far from being God's government.