kicked out!

[james73]

Well it seems there is a price to pay for voicing dissent about the LC on the forum here - just got this email from the elder in our group:

James,

Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship.

We were under the impression that you are travelling in the UK, that's why we have not contacted you.

T___

Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision..

One of the strengths of the LC system is its impenetrability. It is like the "omerta" code in the mafia: anyone who knows anything isn't talking.

The simple fact that you were publicly presenting what is said in LC meetings was enough to get you put out, and quickly. No discussion, no warning, no "probation", no evidence presented, no witnesses brought forward.

It is hard to have conversations with these people. Either repeat the mantra of the week, or be shown the door.

The good news is that you don't seem to be bothered about meeting with other Christians. A LOT of LC Christians have been so brainwashed that they can't bear to "meet on other ground", i.e. have any fellowship with other Christian believers. If you have gotten over that, you will avoid becoming isolated. The flock of God is your protection, and if the LC doesn't care about "the public" hearing the truth of what is said in their meetings, what is going to be their end, really?

God bless your journey as it continues. Remember, no bitterness! You are better off for what has just happened; it is their loss, not yours.

[countmeworthy]

James,
To your question how they might have known you were posting, don't you think there are LC 'spies' reading the forum ? Someone might have recognized you. You have shared your concerns before the congregation then sharing with us what you shared and how it was received at the meetings.

For me this is more proof that the wonderful church life I once embraced indeed is simply another organization, run like a business. When a person works for a company, he/she must abide by the rules. There is little room for disagreement over policy. You might express your concern and they will try to make you see it their way. After some time, you will keep your opinions of disagreement to yourself, resign or handed a pink slip.

You got handed your pink slip.

In the real CHURCH, the Body of Christ holds Christ Jesus as their Head. They are free to fellowship and to disagree.

Recently I watched a panel of end time teachers on TV. One was a Pre-Tribber and one was a post-tribber. I can't recall of there was a mid-tribber..
Possibly. But I recognized the pre and post tribbers for sure.

All discussed their personal view based on their interpretation of scripture. Everyone respected each others views..at least on TV. But I guarantee the zpre tribber pastor will never invite the post tribber and vice versa to their respective " church". They need to be like minded.

That is why I prefer informal fellowship. However I am not a babe in Christ either where I need some basic and very much needed biblical truths. Young believers need to be discipled in the Word of God.

The problem is if a born again believer starts going to church for the first time, he/she will also pick up their stand on salvation, tongues, etc..

We need to learn to read and study the bible without preconceived ideas. We need to accept the good and throw out the bad.

Everyone here at one time loved the church life..for however long. It was not all bad. As time went on and we kept reaching out to JESUS, to His Word, desiring the Truth and Love, we felt the darkness of the LC suffocating us...others saw and experienced some terrible things.

May the Lord restore the Joy of their salvation and heal their wounds quickly. May we all remember Jesus is our Solid Rock ..all other ground is sinking sand.

Blessings and may the Joy of the Lord Jesus strengthen you and fill you with Peace James..and everyone here too.

Carol Garza

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

Well James, IF the brothers leading each locality and even those heading up LSM WERE open to fellowship there would be less reason for this forum to exist. Locally and at LSM, these leading ones don't want to listen objectively in the spirit of fellowship, well brother this is our release valve.

[Ohio]

During the cold war days, I worked with a Russian engineer who was released during the Carter administration. An opportunity opened to emigrate to the US and he took the chance. Though he was not at all religious, his papers said he was "Jewish," because a parent of his also was so labeled, as were his daughter's papers.

The Soviet propaganda machine daily smeared everything "western." That's all the people knew. Radio Free Europe, the only source of outside information, was regularly jammed by Soviet authorities. The Soviet people daily were brainwashed that theirs was the best life on earth, while America was a cesspool of capitalistic criminals. It was said that half the people in Russia were engaged in spying on the other half. Mikhail settled in Columbus, OH simply because Columbus discovered America. That was his only point of reference with his new home.

After Mikhail got work at my company, and began to acclimate to American life, he sent a letter back to his brother in Moscow. He sent pictures of his home, his family, and his two used cars. His brother promptly disowned him for lying about owning those two cars. Impossible he felt, since Mother Russia was the best place on earth, and he was still waiting to obtain his first car.

Back in those days, there was a saying about those behind the walls of Soviet domination. Absent any honest information, and unable to inform those people of the truth, it was said, "open the door, and see which way the people go." If communism was that great, then all the people would stay. If capitalism were that bad, then no one would dare go there. Open the door to see which way the people go!

Where fear and propaganda run rampant, we can draw a few similarities between life in the Recovery and life behind the iron curtain. I always found it simply amazing to hear how quickly some saint could be "poisoned" and leave the Recovery. We always blamed it on the devil, but if life in the Recovery was so good, and life out there in Christianity was so bad, then surely none would dare depart. Later on I learned how much I was held by fear and false promises. I discovered how much unrighteousness existed at LSM, and how they treated those brothers brave enough to speak their conscience.

It is worthwhile to ask why the leadership at LSM is so afraid of the internet. Jesus and all the Apostles were constantly lied about, but could care less since they walked in the truth. They trusted in God. LSM, however, has many secrets they wish to remain secret. That's why they are so afraid of the internet, and that's why they must quarantine and eliminate any saint who knows something.

[Cal]

james,

Kicked out for speaking your mind. What else is new with the LRC?

Consider yourself blessed that you got enlightened about this paranoid group before they indoctrinated you into their paranoia as well.

[alwayslearning]

"Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship."

Typical and clearly demonstrates the spiritual immaturity of the LC system leadership that persists to this day. And if at all true proves how superficial and fragile their "fellowship" really is.

The OT is full of negativity about Israel and the NT about the various churches. Take the Bible and cut out all the negative writings and see how much is left!

But really it's the hypocrisy that takes the cake with these guys. Witness Lee's writings are chock full of negative comments about other Christians. His ministry basically relies on attacking other Christians as the premise of his special elitist Recovery movement.

And how he handled coworkers like John Ingalls, etc. was to widely publicize in print, audio and visual formats an avalanche of negative comments. Same thing was done to Titus Chu by the Anaheim Politburo.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

"Because you have written to the public negatively concerning the church, we don't think it is appropriate for you to come to our meetings. Now, I don't want to reiterate here the things you have written about the church. Suffice to say, they have damaged our fellowship."

Typical and clearly demonstrates the spiritual immaturity of the LC system leadership that persists to this day. And if at all true proves how superficial and fragile their "fellowship" really is.

Fellowship you say? That is what I call groupthink because when saints such as James isn't lining up with the groupthink apparatus, he's out of "fellowship". If there was true fellowship, there would be mutual communication to discuss the negatives in addition to the positives in an objective manner by speaking the truth in love.
Problem is those in the lead are often too subjective and as a result closed to any potential fellowship in mutuality. "Being one with the brothers" appears to carry more weight than scripture.
I think we all (those who meet in the local churches and those who used
to) know the modus operandi. Brothers in the lead will go on the offensive to make certain claims (with or without basis). Just as soon as you call them out on it, nothing but silence. Not a word. To get the brothers to respond on any matter, you would need legal cause to do so.

[OBW]

Everything that is being said about the LRC's group-think, group-speak, doctrine control, etc., is true.

But the event that sparked this thread is as it should have been — even for a fellowship that we all like and respect.

I'm not saying that there is not a problem with everything that has gone on. I'm saying that the bare fact of being ousted is not the problem. It should have been expected of any group.

If you start causing factions, then you are to be marked out. You are not to be allowed to teach. If you start to cause factions, then you have no business being among the group. You are openly standing against them. Why should it be permitted to be from within their midst?

Their doctrines and practices are worthy of serious scrutiny. Too bad you got called-out for doing just that. But unless we want to declare that their lampstand has been removed, what they did about it was not actually an error. The underlying things that caused J73 to speak out about it are the errors.

Sort of a technical whipsaw. They have serious errors. You can't speak to them about them because they won't listen. You can't talk to anyone else because they won't tolerate it. So the only real choice is what they claim to hate — division. In this case a form of separation from some of the worst division in the past 100 years.

Be thankful. Be very thankful.

Having said that, surrounding that is a lot of problem for the LRC. They hold their nonessentials so strongly that even admitting to thinking differently is a problem for them. If they kick you out for that, it is not supportable. It is not supportable to kick people out for asking questions.

But if you go outside and speak against the group, they have identified that you are not truly part of the group and to allow you to come among them as if you are a part is a farce. So the reason given is sufficient.

And, while you can argue that there was not a trial, technically, that is laying a requirement of American jurisprudence onto the process.

Argue that they didn't first come and tell you your fault and allow you to repent. Was there ever any thought that it was not a fault in their eyes? Yet the actions persisted. We are grasping at straws on that one.

And posting the contents of the letter solidified that you are the one they intended. They clearly got the message to the right person because that person had their message to make public on the forum.

Rejoice.

And return to the discussion of what is behind their errors. The things they do right are not what we should gripe about.

[james73]

Originally Posted by OBW

But the event that sparked this thread is as it should have been — even for a fellowship that we all like and respect.

I'm not saying that there is not a problem with everything that has gone on. I'm saying that the bare fact of being ousted is not the problem. It should have been expected of any group.

...

But if you go outside and speak against the group, they have identified that you are not truly part of the group and to allow you to come among them as if you are a part is a farce. So the reason given is sufficient.

...

And, while you can argue that there was not a trial, technically, that is laying a requirement of American jurisprudence onto the process.

Rejoice.

And return to the discussion of what is behind their errors. The things they do right are not what we should gripe about.

Well I disagree. What have they done right? I am not laying American jurisprudence on the church at all - there is Matthew 18:15. If there is a disagreement, if a brother sins against you, first tell one, then tell a couple, then tell the whole church. If they don't like something I did, they can follow Jesus' words - first tell me, then a couple, then the church and then, if I do not see the error, they can treat me as a tax collector or Gentile. They jumped straight to "tax collector".

Anyway I don't blame them, they are only human. But exclusion is a serious matter in the church, it is one of Witness Lee's own six tests for a genuine local church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

If they don't like something I did, they can follow Jesus' words - first tell me, then a couple, then the church and then, if I do not see the error, they can treat me as a tax collector or Gentile. They jumped straight to "tax collector".

Anyway I don't blame them, they are only human.

I think many will agree the local churches is not conventional Christianity. When dealing with the leadership locally and extra-locally, most decision making is based on feeling. This feeling often refers to The True of Life as the source. To be rational, reasonable, investigative, and fact-finding brothers is often referred to as eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Thus brothers do not need to know or do not want to know anything.

Yet in Paul's first letter to Timothy, Paul wrote "doing nothing in a spirit of partiality". Further in Paul's letter to Titus, Paul wrote "but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,". Titus 1:8
From James 1:19, "This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;"

You may wonder why did I include James 1:19? Because the nature of many brothers in the lead lack objectivity. Orientation with their localities and Living Stream Ministry is very much subjective. As a result they are slow to hear and quick to anger. This explains to some degree at the beginning of my post when I said many decision making is feeling based (subjective) and why to research information (objective) is discouraged.

I wish for more objectivity and impartiality but, as James says, they are only human.

[Paul Cox]

Well, James, the Local Church is a little fantasy land. King Lee has died, but all the kings men are running a tight ship. In their fantasy land they use grandiose terms like, "APOSTLE OF THE AGE," "GOD'S MOVE ON THE EARTH," "GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY." They have (we were) brainwashed to believe all this nonsense. The more insular they can keep the group, the more success they will have at keeping the brainwashing going on.

They can't afford to have light shone into their midst. Yes, consider yourself blessed to be done with that nonsense. They think they have spoken with authority. But their authority is an authority of straw. Good riddance.

Now you can start to have real fellowship with the Body of Christ. Those people have become Jehovah's Witnesses who happen to believe in the Trinity.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by james73

Well I disagree. What have they done right? I am not laying American jurisprudence on the church at all - there is Matthew 18:15. If there is a disagreement, if a brother sins against you, first tell one, then tell a couple, then tell the whole church. If they don't like something I did, they can follow Jesus' words - first tell me, then a couple, then the church and then, if I do not see the error, they can treat me as a tax collector or Gentile. They jumped straight to "tax collector".

Anyway I don't blame them, they are only human. But exclusion is a serious matter in the church, it is one of Witness Lee's own six tests for a genuine local church.

And in that regard you have them right where they cannot allow such a thing to happen.

But tell me, if they had actually gone through the whole thing, how would it have played out?

"We note that you have been writing things on the internet about us. Things that you should have first come to us about. That you should have confronted us as being an offense. Then we could respond. BTW, you are James73, are you not?"

At this point, you can only agree that you are or there are more serious problems.

"Are you going to repent from this error and stop doing it?"

Interesting problem. Will you repent and stop? I sort of doubt it.

"Since you assert that you will not cease in this action and you continue to spread lies concerning Witness Lee and the Local Churches, you are hereby excluded from our fellowship."

Oh, it is very clear that they simply bypassed the Matthew 18 process. But was the outcome unexpected even if followed?

And since their charge is related to speaking lies concerning Lee and the churches, it is clearly not going to be some public event in which your "lies" will either be listed or otherwise put out for the rest of the people to hear. So it is going to be private.

It appears that you have equally bypassed any attempt at "fellowship" concerning the "problems" and are equally at fault.

Now, before you think I am blaming you, I am not. But in the grand scheme of things, most of what we do here on this forum is arguably in opposition to Matthew 18. At least if you assert that it applies to every possible disagreement with all other Christians, at all times, and in all ways.

What I am saying is that it is not entirely obvious that Matt 18 is written for this kind of issue. Many will disagree. But simply saying that it applies to everything does not make it so. Its own words and those of scripture suggest something different.

Our tendency to take everything written in scripture and declare it to be the only way with respect to all things. But much of it is more specific and contextual than that. We like to make Matthew 18 into a general prescription concerning all disputes of all kinds, but it is not stated as such.

It says if "you" note that your brother or sister sins, point it out to them. If they will not hear you, take along one or two more to establish the facts. If they won't hear it then, take it to the church. If they won't hear the church, "treat them as you would a pagan or tax collector." (I should say here that I cannot determine who it is that is supposed to take this position — the church or the person who sees the problem. I can make an argument either way.)

Yet when Paul wrote to Timothy concerning bad teachers, he simply said to refuse them. He didn't say to tell them, then if they don't listen, to take it to the church. He said to refuse them. Surely he did not consider Timothy to stand as the church.

So, if it is the church leadership that has noted you doing something that may not actually be sin, but that is a willful misspeaking (in their opinion) concerning things that they consider "truth," are they limited like the "you" in Matthew, or are they standing in the position of Timothy with respect to trouble in the church?

Unless we are ready to have a serious problem with Paul (and therefore the inerrancy issue that has recently died down) it is not so simple as to drag out Matthew 18 every time something of "discipline" occurs. Matt 18 clearly applies to sin. Paul seems to have used something like Matt 18 (or was the last step in that process) when he advised the Corinthians to exclude the sinning brother. But he does not even suggest such a thing when he tells Timothy to silence certain teachers.

Now there has been some controversy as to whether the silencing of certain teachers was coupled with some kind of expulsion. It is not clear. Some say "yes" while others say "no."

- - - -

And having said all of that, please note that I do not defend the LRC, per se, but note that we may be fighting the wrong battle in this case. Surely they are one of the worst examples of any kind of righteousness when it comes to their stances and how that plays out with their members. Despite the generally poor advice to label them as a cult, there is a side in which the church community as a whole is treating the LRC according to Matthew 18. Unlike the LRC, much of the rest of Christianity operates with much more charity concerning the large variety of groups and differences of opinion on things. But they stop when it comes to "playing nice" with the ones who sue over characterizations of their doctrines (borderline heresy) and practices (actually quite cultic in many cases). The LRC does not respond to attempts at discussion. They simply shut of conversation and call their lawyers.

So they get excluded. Treated as pagans and tax collectors. (I kind of like the idea that labeling something as being like the IRS is a sort of curse.)

[Cal]

I think what OBW is getting at is that every local group has the right to manage its membership as it sees fit, within the parameters of the Word. James' LRC group had the right, in the broad sense, to decide to part ways with him.

I would add that every individual also has the right to leave a local group and shake the dust off his feet, again within the parameters of the Word. James also had the right to part ways with the LRC group he was in.

(The LRC basically denied the second right existed. This is one of their major errors. Of course, they would never physically restrict a member from leaving. But they would most definitely tell members that to leave the LRC is to go against God, which may be worse.)

But in both cases what is "within the parameters of the Word" is up for debate. It is not entirely clear where the edges of the right of free association cross over into the edges of obligated association. Just where these edges meet is something we've discussed many times. And it is clear will never all agree on it--which tells me the general principles of seeking peace and wishing Godspeed should prevail above all.

Which one "did right" is a matter of interpretation and conscience. Thankfully, there are plenty of places to meet if somebody doesn't like you, and plenty of fish in the sea if you are looking for members to put up with your group's rarified requirements.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

Well I disagree. What have they done right? I am not laying American jurisprudence on the church at all - there is Matthew 18:15.

Back during the quarantines of 2006, I read most of LSM's arguments on "afaithfulword.com" trying to ascertain their justifications. Since they no longer clung to scripture as their divine "standard," as Nee's famous quote instructs, we must honestly ask "what is right?" What defines our actions? What decides? How do we "cut straight?"

The Great Lakes Area and LSM battled for several years over this same matter. Both sides, instead of looking to scripture, went to Lee's writings for definition. Both sides compiled their "ammunition" from Lee's voluminous writings. The conclusion was apparent -- older Lee (Anaheim) differed from younger Lee (Cleveland.)

There you have it. Nee says look to scripture. Neither side accepted that. They looked to Lee's writings. But the old stuff contradicts the new stuff. Both sides claimed that they knew "the real Lee." Once we leave the Bible, how can we ever know "what is right?" We have already left the "solid rock" and both sides are now on sinking sand.

Several years age, the Anderson family (Book -- Thread of Gold) attempted to apply these verses from Matt. 18. They wrote letters. Long letters. This forum archives the whole history. Families suffered in the LC. Numerous letters written. Real tragedies. They got no where. Great verses, for sure, but just a waste of time. Once leaders leave the scripture as our "standard," there is no way to "fellowship."

OBW highlights this. LSM can turn any complaint upside down. They are masters at this. Inside their little "society" they make all the rules.

[james73]

Originally Posted by OBW

- - - -

And having said all of that, please note that I do not defend the LRC, per se, but note that we may be fighting the wrong battle in this case. Surely they are one of the worst examples of any kind of righteousness when it comes to their stances and how that plays out with their members. Despite the generally poor advice to label them as a cult, there is a side in which the church community as a whole is treating the LRC according to Matthew 18. Unlike the LRC, much of the rest of Christianity operates with much more charity concerning the large variety of groups and differences of opinion on things. But they stop when it comes to "playing nice" with the ones who sue over characterizations of their doctrines (borderline heresy) and practices (actually quite cultic in many cases). The LRC does not respond to attempts at discussion. They simply shut of conversation and call their lawyers.

So they get excluded. Treated as pagans and tax collectors. (I kind of like the idea that labeling something as being like the IRS is a sort of curse.)

Yes, and I'm sorry if I got a little defensive. For British, being excluded from a group is the worst punishment... and without a fair hearing too, a chap gets agitated. I'm also hearing bad things on the grapevine, apparently I am emotionally unstable. This is an infuriating allegation to hear about oneself.

Igzy is right to bring up obligated association, this is probably the key to the upset for me. Despite being quite cynical and disbelieving of the LSM hype, I HAD fallen into the trap of believing, subconsciously, that it was the "only church". It's hard to shake that off. Surprising how deep that nonsense had gotten past my usually ferocious journalistic defenses... even while consciously rejecting it, part of me had accepted it.

Well it's time to take a break, it's emotionally draining. Hearing bad things about myself from mutual acquaintances has proved especially tough, especially where the mutual acquaintances hold absolute faith in the brother telling them the bad things. They are not asking "are you OK?" they are saying "Gosh I heard you had an emotional breakdown, you should seek professional help"... deep breaths... that's why they are mutual acquaintances, not mutual friends.

Maybe close this thread, it's probably too negative. We all have better things to do, right? But, as one at the church accused me of always needing to have the last word, let's keep it open in case anyone else wants to comment a little while longer...

Peace!

James73 wrote: Anyway I don't blame them, they are only human.
When have they stopped the standing up one by one to declare :'I am god' ?
Jesus our savior, the great shepherd, has rescued you. Now you can pray in spirit and in truth. Rejoice.

[Lisbon]

Any leading one (and I am not) heard WL speak for a full hour on there being essentially no grounds for excomunication. Dozens of messages given on the organic aspect of the church. Surely it's inconceivable that with such a teaching you can go out and shoot a toe, ear, or finger off the body with little regard. We're just crazy.
davinci

[OBW]

And I was never suggesting that the LRC was "pearly white" in what they did. That is often the problem that we all get into when we start discussing these kinds of issues. Including me. Even when I try to be specific about what I am referring to, I fail, or use words that extend what I mean to something that I don't mean.

It is very clear that their "right" (even scripturally) to moderate their membership is only technically as broad as I have stated it. It is much more completely true if they begin with a real, up-front process of discussion. Even one that truly allows for some independence of thought. Then, when the sense that someone is taking actions and saying things that is excessively partisan or even divisive, they can be more up front and honest about it and do what they need to do.

As it is, they skip everything else. The refuse to even hear alternate thoughts on things. Despite rhetoric I heard in my early years in the LRC (mid-70s), they essentially tolerate no variation in belief of any kind. They now must all be on the same page on everything. Saying otherwise out loud is an invitation for the door.

It should not be that simple. But even if I point to Paul's writings to Timothy rather than those of Jesus recorded in Matthew 18 (and accepting that they are not talking about the same thing), it is not clear that Paul said to kick anyone out. Just to refuse them the place to teach.

Not clear terminology. And I know of a situation where I have attended where there was some divisive rumblings from the wife of someone who either was, or had been, an elder. The solution was a request to just move on down the street to some group that she didn't want to fight with.

Not perfect, but you keep open dissent out of the community. They are not excommunicated. And they can return. But hopefully without the open dissent and factiousness. No one is looking for them at the doors to keep hem out.

[OBW]

I kept thinking about that old thing about not really being able to excommunicate anyone.

And suddenly the light went on.

They don't excommunicate!! They quarantine!! It is supposedly curable. But I have never seen such a thing.

As the sheep were gullibly taught to chant toward the end of Animal Farm: Four legs good! Two legs better!!

The cure isn't to not excommunicate anyone. It is to rename the process so that it is never said to have happened.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by james73

Yes, and I'm sorry if I got a little defensive. For British, being excluded from a group is the worst punishment... and without a fair hearing too, a chap gets agitated. I'm also hearing bad things on the grapevine, apparently I am emotionally unstable. This is an infuriating allegation to hear about oneself.

This is typical. Anyone who dares to speak anything not in lock step with the status quo as dictated by the Anaheim Politburo is classified as: emotionally unstable or has a personal problem or is ambitious for position or...? The list goes on and on and on. They are a closed system and simply can't handle any critique whatsoever i.e. spiritual infants.

Originally Posted by james73

Igzy is right to bring up obligated association, this is probably the key to the upset for me. Despite being quite cynical and disbelieving of the LSM hype, I HAD fallen into the trap of believing, subconsciously, that it was the "only church". It's hard to shake that off. Surprising how deep that nonsense had gotten past my usually ferocious journalistic defenses... even while consciously rejecting it, part of me had accepted it.

This is good news! They are not the only true church. That is just a fable they tell themselves. And the better news is I have never been in any other church that does not accept constructive honest critique as part and parcel of their every day community life. People walk out of Sunday morning meetings discussing the good and bad of the message they just heard. What they think about it, etc. It's no big deal. It's normal. Nobody is threatened by it. Blind acceptance and loyalty is not expected nor given.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Leo

Dozens of messages given on the organic aspect of the church. Surely it's inconceivable that with such a teaching you can go out and shoot a toe, ear, or finger off the body with little regard.

I remember hearing RK say, "We have to cut off the churches to save the body". Like the village of Ben Tre in Vietnam: "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it".

The only thing the ministry cares about is the ministry. It doesn't care about the saints, the churches, or the Word. It says it does (appearance of reality is integral to its survival), but when push comes to shove its all about one thing: the ministry.

[aron]

james73,

I know it hurts short term, but you didn't have a long and bright future as a ministry drone: you appear to be an intelligent person who at least tries to use his brain. So it was necessary medicine, both for you and for them.

Looking at it from their perspective, you probably already were on probationary status.

First, you were meeting (openly?) with others who belonged to that Great Satan, Mystery Babylon Christianity.

Second, you had opinions contrary to the Hive Mind and voiced them publicly in meetings.

So when it became apparent that you were posting less than salubrious things on a negative web site, that was all the due process they needed. You needed to be excised quickly, and hopefully quietly, to minimize potential collateral damage.

Once you understand "ministry uber alles" the ministry behavior is quite logical.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The only thing the ministry cares about is the ministry. It doesn't care about the saints, the churches, or the Word. It says it does (appearance of reality is integral to its survival), but when push comes to shove its all about one thing: the ministry.

In this respect, Cleveland is no different than Anaheim. I have personally witnessed both headquarters willing to lay waste entire churches just as long as those last few saints, and the church properties, end up loyal to them. Of course, they always paid lip-service to the well-being of the individual saints, but as with politicians, pay attention to what they do, and not what they read from some teleprompter.

The fallen nature of gifted men, whether saved or not, is to build monuments and empires using the common man as their capital -- "keep them busy so they can't complain; make them feel like they are part of something big." Whether "public servants" or in our case "servants of the Lord," it is just the same -- they become kings, and we become their "servants." It's all in the terminology.

The only thing the ministry cares about is the ministry. Exactly. And as long as this is the case, we will always have fights to determine who is on top of the ministry. 'Cause that's what it's all about. But don't let any of the saints know this!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

I remember hearing RK say, "We have to cut off the churches to save the body".

If they said "our little kingdom" instead of "the body" they would be entirely accurate.

The idea that a handful of churches are a threat to the Body is a joke. They don't know the difference between the Body and their little sandbox. Would you trust your spiritual life to such cluelessness?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In this respect, Cleveland is no different than Anaheim. I have personally witnessed both headquarters willing to lay waste entire churches just as long as those last few saints, and the church properties, end up loyal to them.

Originally Posted by Igzy

If they said "our little kingdom" instead of "the body" they would be entirely accurate.

It is ironic, and telling, that TC and DYL are arguably more the "spiritual heirs" of WL than the blendeds. Why? Because WL carved out a piece of Christianity for himself, and TC and DYL likewise carved out pieces of WL's kingdom for themselves.

I remember reading a letter from a Brazilian brother who basically accused DYL of everything that WL had been doing for 40 years: egomania, paranoia, isolationism, finger pointing, and shadowy intrigues. And the blendeds said that DYL deviated from the true path? I had to laugh.

The blendeds are merely caretakers of WL's sandbox. DYL and TC, wanting their own sandbox with their own rules, are WL's true disciples. The blendeds got the husk of his ministry, while DYL and TC got the kernel.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

I remember reading a letter from a Brazilian brother who basically accused DYL of everything that WL had been doing for 40 years: egomania, paranoia, isolationism, finger pointing, and shadowy intrigues. And the blendeds said that DYL deviated from the true path? I had to laugh.

No kidding. Sounds like he was a faithful imitator.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If they said "our little kingdom" instead of "the body" they would be entirely accurate.

Talking to a LC friend a while ago, I heard another variation on "quarantines." His adult daughter had been trying to invite her mother back to the LC meetings for some time. There was a special get together, so she decided to invite her mom, who finally agreed to go. The elders, however, were frantic, and called him numerous times. Eventually they got thru to his wife on the phone, and made it real clear, "before you attend any meetings, you must sit down and talk with us."

Another time, his younger teenage daughter wanted to serve at one of the regional events in Cleveland. This was after all the spiritual brothers like John Myer had departed, who used to oversee these events. The full-timer left in charge of the regional events said to his daughter "we don't need you." When her parent pressed the issue, the brother in charge said, "I'm busy, I don't have time for you."

Needless to say, my friend was a little upset. Having raised his children in the LC, he did not like the way his family was being so rudely treated. The local elders looked into the affair. Word went out that "Ole Brother Jim got offended by the brothers in Cleveland." Their next message on Sunday morning was on "Griping." It was directed right at him.

I could fill the forum with stories like this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Any leading one (and I am not) heard WL speak for a full hour on there being essentially no grounds for excomunication. Dozens of messages given on the organic aspect of the church. Surely it's inconceivable that with such a teaching you can go out and shoot a toe, ear, or finger off the body with little regard. We're just crazy.
davinci

In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul points out how every member of the Body is essential. However the LSM/LC makes it evident through the practice of quarantines, they are in contrast to the apostles teaching. If you have a brother or sister who's a troublesome finger, toe, or ear in the Body, amputation is the prescribed method to rid themselves of that Member. How many brothers and sisters can you name who were cut off? That's not what Paul's 1st epistle to Corinth says.

Hi brother James , what an interesting arrangement. I was the one who commented on the tumblr site you have- and reading the local church forum makes me guess you may be the same person. Anyways, I hope you are doing well in Christ and be full of strength and encouragement !

Re: James kicked out
And the devistation continues . . .

Carol Garza - "Kicked out" post
Good solid post. Thank you! The grief process is a bear. Thank you for your post. It is so healthy to read what is written here. The freedom outside the Office encourages us to draw ever nearer to God. I may not take a stand on the tribulation and other doctrines, but I love Jesus and know enough to not get side-tracked by Leeism. Only the immoral and criminals get to color outside the lines, at least in the Office! The rest must carry the party line or risk getting kicked out. Hallelujah (not at the time), I got shunned and kicked out in 1981. What a blessing (although not at the time).

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Any leading one (and I am not) heard WL speak for a full hour on there being essentially no grounds for excomunication. Dozens of messages given on the organic aspect of the church. Surely it's inconceivable that with such a teaching you can go out and shoot a toe, ear, or finger off the body with little regard. We're just crazy.
davinci

Regarding "no grounds for excommunication" . . . . maybe he was thinking about his own family members, Nee, and/or himself.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Carol Garza - "Kicked out" post
Good solid post. Thank you! The grief process is a bear. Thank you for your post. It is so healthy to read what is written here. The freedom outside the Office encourages us to draw ever nearer to God. I may not take a stand on the tribulation and other doctrines, but I love Jesus and know enough to not get side-tracked by Leeism. Only the immoral and criminals get to color outside the lines, at least in the Office! The rest must carry the party line or risk getting kicked out. Hallelujah (not at the time), I got shunned and kicked out in 1981. What a blessing (although not at the time).

Gosh! It's been a while since I have been here..and to see my name mentioned was a pleasant albeit shocker! So glad I and everyone here have been an encouragement.

The grieving process is a bear because we were duped that the LC church life was the all in all. In my day, it had some very positive attributes going for it.
I left around 1978/79

I went to find what I wrote to you.. wow.. that was 2013. I through the Grace of God have changed so much since then..


Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

Blessings be on you as well, and all glory and honor to the Father and to the King.

I'm grateful for my LC experience and extremely grateful the Lord led me out.

Like everyone else, I've had my "times and seasons", but in all, God is good, kind, merciful. The great high calling in Christ Jesus endures, and the love of God never wavers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I went to find what I wrote to you.. wow.. that was 2013. I through the Grace of God have changed so much since then..


Ecclesiastes 3 has been a great reminder to me that
To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

There was a reason we were in the LC... God brought us in and God brought us out. To everything there is a season. Our season there has come and gone.

showers of blessings be upon us all..

Carol G

And I'll also quote this. Yes, the Lord has shown me clearly that He brought me into the LC and He took me out. Where I am now is where He placed me - "God places the members in the body as He sees fit." I have seen and experienced so much more of His love and grace, and through the members of His body since then. But I must say, I am most thankful for the LC then, and also SC now!

But in reading this I am also grieved for you - not an easy experience. Lord supply our brother!

(and thanks for all the tender and hopefully comforting replies on here to him)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And I'll also quote this. Yes, the Lord has shown me clearly that He brought me into the LC and He took me out. Where I am now is where He placed me - "God places the members in the body as He sees fit." I have seen and experienced so much more of His love and grace, and through the members of His body since then. But I must say, I am most thankful for the LC then, and also SC now!

But in reading this I am also grieved for you - not an easy experience. Lord supply our brother!

(and thanks for all the tender and hopefully comforting replies on here to him)

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

May God turn everyone's children's grief into dancing as He places His Healing Hands on us all for we are the body of Christ, fitly framed together. The healthier we are, the more Glory Light we will be upon the world shining brightly drawing people to Jesus in these dark days.

Blessings of Love and Peace be upon us all in Christ Jesus.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

May God turn everyone's children's grief into dancing as He places His Healing Hands on us all for we are the body of Christ, fitly framed together. The healthier we are, the more Glory Light we will be upon the world shining brightly drawing people to Jesus in these dark days.

Blessings of Love and Peace be upon us all in Christ Jesus.

Amen sister! And may you find rich fellowship on here and where you are! Just ask Him - He is faithful!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hi again..
Not sure who you are grieving for..just know that I Carol, am in a very good place.

And hi again to you. It's always great to hear from you. Much love and many blessings sister.

Harold

P.S. I might be wrong, but I think neither of us are into organized religion. So we're stuck with disorganized religion.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Amen sister! And may you find rich fellowship on here and where you are! Just ask Him - He is faithful!

All is good right now.. in fact.. WOW.. God is answering my prayers left and right lately!!

Also.. I have been going to a bible 'study' for about 1 1/2 yrs. We are reading through the bible and just started Joshua. Tonight I learned something..maybe some of you knew this but I did not. Remember Rahab the harlot? So Joshua and Caleb went and stayed at her house right? She hid them and she got rewarded for it. What I did not know is that the reason they stayed with her is that as a prostitute, she knew the town's secrets. Caleb and Joshua learned everything they needed to know about Jericho. You may or not agree but the discussion was super interesting.

We started in Genesis.. Some are church goers..most are not. No one attends the denomination or non denomination of the facilitators. In fact the couple told their 'church' that no one in their congregation was allowed to attend the bible study. Go figure!

It began with the sister of the facilitator to do a bible study as she wanted to learn to read and understand the bible. This was 2 yrs ago. The sister's sister and BIL agreed and by word of mouth, she invited a couple of people she knew (I being one of them) and then they began inviting others. Our 'attendance' has been about 12...but tonight we had 26-27 people! It is held at a home. We are also a roudy group. We ask questions..interrupt.. joke around making people laugh all while being serious and listening what the Spirit is teaching us.

We all bring food and eat throughout the study but mostly at the beginning. We pray before we start and at the end of the study. This is definitely a GOD THING... LOTS OF LOVE bombing going around..but it is genuine..

Looking forward to what God has up His sleeve with this bunch.

Love your enthusiasm SOG.. keep it up. There are lots of broken hearts on this forum that need uplifting, encouraging and healing.

I have been meditating on Psalm 103 for about a week now.. also Psalm 23..

Blessings of Peace and Joy to all..
Carol

[awareness]

Originally Posted by CMW

What I did not know is that the reason they stayed with her is that as a prostitute . . . .

"Then Jesus told them: You can be sure that tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you ever will!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Wow Carol, that sounds like a great Bible study! May the Lord continue to richly supply you all!

[manna-man]

It's always wonderful to hear from you CMW!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

It's always wonderful to hear from you CMW!

Why Thank YOU !! I popped in because I am watching a teaching video. And the teacher briefly mentions Jesus God preparing our mansions. I remember a brief discussion I once had with an LSMr on the meaning of our mansions. The person could not explain what a mansion meant.

(John 14:2)
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And that brief mention on that teaching video (which is not on mansions btw) is what prompted me to pop in! LOL

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Why Thank YOU !! I popped in because I am watching a teaching video. And the teacher briefly mentions Jesus God preparing our mansions. I remember a brief discussion I once had with an LSMr on the meaning of our mansions. The person could not explain what a mansion meant.

(John 14:2)
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And that brief mention on that teaching video (which is not on mansions btw) is what prompted me to pop in! LOL

Mansions = abodes or dwelling places (right?)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Mansions = abodes or dwelling places (right?)

Yes.. but what does it mean to the LSM???

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Yes.. but what does it mean to the LSM???

I dunno (got bigger fish to fry than disseminating all things LSM)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by james73

Well it seems there is a price to pay for voicing dissent about the LC on the forum here - just got this email from the elder in our group:


Well. Quite upsetting. After all, seems there is no "trial". Come to think of it, there's absolutely no evidence it's "me" posting here. I wouldn't deny it, of course, but at the same time, it's very easy for someone to have posted in my name. Obviously no "innocent until proven guilty" at the LC. Also I wonder how the "facts" came to light; how they were discussed; who was involved; how they reached this decision; and who gives them the AUTHORITY to ban someone, if they indeed believe they are the "only church in Hong Kong"? There must have been some pretty mucky slander going on the last few days, no wonder I've been feeling so anxious.

Obviously they are also feeling upset if they think I've been posting publicly my complaints about the church, and I'm sorry about that. But no regrets or repentance - a church should be able to take public criticism. If there's a lesson for them to learn, it's to take member's complaints more seriously before the members get frustrated and seek outside help. If there's a lesson for me to learn, it's not to get involved with cultish Californian ministries that believe they are God's only gift to the world.

If you are told that you can't meet with them they've done you a favor.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Yes.. but what does it mean to the LSM???

The local church understanding is that the mansion is God Himself.

The term itself means that Catholicism inserted pagan ideas into the Bible. The Bible does not speak of heavenly mansions. The thought of heavenly mansions comes from paganism, and can be found in Buddhism or Hinduism today.

This view has support in wider Christianity, as this ministry website states (I don't think this group has any affiliation with LSM or LEe)

The hope of going to an eternal mansion in Heaven is not based on the Scriptures. In fact, this belief actually leads away from the redemptive purposes of God.


http://www.wor.org/book/3745/mansions-in-heaven

Even Gotquestions seems to have grasped the idea:

https://www.gotquestions.org/mansions-heaven.html


the imagery is of multitudes together, not living separately in different mansions.

So, the (true) meaning of mansions can be found in many Christian resources.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The local church understanding is that the mansion is God Himself.

The local church understanding? Which local church?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The local church understanding? Which local church?

That is actually an interesting question! A local church should be local, right? A brother and I had fellowship over lunch yesterday and we were talking about what the primitive ekklesia had. Basically there were two main things:

1. No centralized authority - each locality is autonomous and under the Lord's leading
2. A focus on scripture alone - nothing added in a way of ultimate authority or practice

In Broadbent's seminal book, "The Pilgrim Church," he clearly shows how getting away from these two things was the big error of the Roman Church, and how the primitive (aka pilgrim) ekklesia always avoided these two errors.

But the natural tendency of humans is to take control, and not adhering to these two points then opens the door for all kinds of things, systems, errors, etc. & etc.

Sounds simple, eh?!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The local church understanding? Which local church?

Any local church. Why should different local churches interpret scripture differently?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Any local church. Why should different local churches interpret scripture differently?

(Sounds a little like a "When did you stop beating your wife?" i.e. loaded question.) Yes, they might interpret scripture differently than another autonomous local church and maybe even interpret incorrectly. But they must have the freedom to do so.

Falls into the same basic rationality of why we shouldn't have open meetings - somebody might say something in some way that isn't good . . . We need the FREEDOM!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Any local church. Why should different local churches interpret scripture differently?

I don’t think they “should” (as a rule of thumb). But they do...

How would a local church in Arkansas even know how a local church in Greece interprets scripture? They don’t even know of each other or speak the same language.

What am I missing here?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Any local church. Why should different local churches interpret scripture differently?

How could they with LSM breathing down their necks?

How could they when opinions are prohibited?

How could they when their only recourse is to reference the HWFMR?

Why would Paul, on the other hand, tell local churches, "if in anything you are otherwise minded?"

[Evangelical]

Freedom to interpret scripture however we like
or not?

What does the Bible say ?

I will wait and see if anyone can support this view from the Bible. I've got my verses ready to go. Any time now, I will be patient.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Freedom to interpret scripture however we like
or not?

What does the Bible say ?

I will wait and see if anyone can support this view from the Bible. I've got my verses ready to go. Any time now, I will be patient.

So you’re changing the subject?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So you’re changing the subject?

You changed the subject in post #50.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You changed the subject in post #50.

Yes I did. You made a point about the local churches. I thought it would be interesting to continue that line of thinking...

I’m not interested in your new topic as I don’t find it relevant - I hope others are, for your sake.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Yes I did. You made a point about the local churches. I thought it would be interesting to continue that line of thinking...

I’m not interested in your new topic as I don’t find it relevant - I hope others are, for your sake.

It's not a new topic. It's the same topic you introduced in post #50. Other posters remarked about freedoms, as a continuation of your topic. We're still in your topic territory. You are free to bow out, and my scriptures might be informative to others.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Freedom to interpret scripture however we like
or not?

What does the Bible say ?

I will wait and see if anyone can support this view from the Bible. I've got my verses ready to go. Any time now, I will be patient.

Now c'mon Least, I'd like to see his verses.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How could they with LSM breathing down their necks?

How could they when opinions are prohibited?

How could they when their only recourse is to reference the HWFMR?

Why would Paul, on the other hand, tell local churches, "if in anything you are otherwise minded?"

Could you please post the full verse of Philippians 3:15. ? If not, I will.

[Sons to Glory!]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy - here we go again!!!

[BeardedFool]

I think it is is fairly obvious by now that the Local Church is Christian and follows the teachings of the bible in exactly the same way Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most Catholics are Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible.

James, glad you finally had a wake up call and are now free to pursue a relationship with God directly, rather than through a corrupt organization. My advice to you, for what it is worth, is realize that humans are deeply flawed and you happened to fall in with some. Take what truth you got from them and know that Christ is still real and alive in many others. Don't get bitter and you will find your way. Persevere in your pursuit of the truth you find in God's word.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

I think it is is fairly obvious by now that the Local Church is Christian and follows the teachings of the bible in exactly the same way Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most Catholics are Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible.

While I agree that one could make the comparison between the LSM and these other organizations - I don't think it is fair, or appropriate, to make this statement quoted above. The LSM and their affiliated churches are, in nature and practice, flawed at the core by their steadfast devotion to Witness Lee above all else. This devotion to Lee has left a lifeless and dying collection of Witness Lee denomination churches marked by a spirit of confusion, exclusivity, and judgement - which leads to a quenching of the Holy Spirit. There are dear believers within those church walls and it would not be appropriate or accurate to lump them in with some of the heretical groups you've mentioned above.

[BeardedFool]

Witness Lee denomination churches marked by a spirit of confusion, exclusivity, and judgement - which leads to a quenching of the Holy Spirit. There are dear believers within those church walls and it would not be appropriate or accurate to lump them in with some of the heretical groups you've mentioned above.

leastofthese, I agree whole heartedly with your statements. I am sure we will also be extremely surprised at the number of dear believers that are Catholic, Mormon, and JW. That alone doesn't mean those organizations all grow from the root of the same tree.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

leastofthese, I agree whole heartedly with your statements. I am sure we will also be extremely surprised at the number of dear believers that are Catholic, Mormon, and JW. That alone doesn't mean those organizations all grow from the root of the same tree.

Catholics sure. There are true believers there.

Mormons and JWs are not regenerated believers and are heretical. Any concept that they are true believers is unorthodox.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

leastofthese, I agree whole heartedly with your statements. I am sure we will also be extremely surprised at the number of dear believers that are Catholic, Mormon, and JW. That alone doesn't mean those organizations all grow from the root of the same tree.

So we can agree to disagree on certain points.

What are your thoughts on the “root of the same tree” ?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Catholics sure. There are true believers there.

Mormons and JWs are not regenerated believers and are heretical. Any concept that they are true believers is unorthodox.

Drake

Have to agree with you bro Drake. At a little Tuesday brothers' gathering this week, we were actually having a discussion about living ones we've experienced in the Romish system. A brother's sister is catholic and it looks like she will be passing away soon. She's not very open to her brother, spiritually, so we prayed the Lord would send a born again Catholic priest to her!

That would be a little harder to pray regarding Mormons & JWs (although he did use a donkey)!