Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

www.BrotherAndrewYu.com

Andrew Yu was so entirely blinded in his concept of deputy authority that he expressed no human feeling in his book regarding the distressing and trying circumstances that existed for many brothers under Witness Lee’s leadership. Andrew dismissed and buried their grave concerns, saying, “There has never been a case, either in the Scriptures or in church history, where a servant of God has been found to be perfect. A perfect person does not exist. None of us can claim to be perfect.” (p. 5)

Blind Loyalty

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it. Saul was corrupted to the uttermost, but David always and with impeccability recognized Saul as God’s anointed authority. In the same principle the archangel Michael dared not to rebuke Satan, but would only ask the Lord to do it (Jude 9). Satan still had his authority, even though he had already fallen. This case shows us the immutability of the spiritual principle that once a person is a spiritual authority over others and recognized as a spiritual authority, he is always so. To overthrow such a one, for any reason, constitutes rebellion.” (pp. 13, 31)

Andrew’s idea of establishing a king forever to bow to is contrary to what is spoken in the ministry itself, derailing Andrew’s faulty word to the elders and co-workers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

….“This case shows us the immutability of the spiritual principle that once a person is a spiritual authority over others and recognized as a spiritual authority, he is always so. To overthrow such a one, for any reason, constitutes rebellion.” (pp. 13, 31).

So why were Watchman Nee & Co free to leave Christianity? Or why did Nee give Luther a free pass when Luther left Roman Catholicism?

And so forth. As always, a case of "do as I say, not as I do."

Or, "This is a firm and immutable rule which applies to everyone at all times." *

* (But not to me)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority.

I'm always torn between trying to show that these LSM guys are idiots and just calling them idiots. I mean, their assertions are so stupid that it becomes almost pointless to bother to debate them.

Andrew Yu is basically saying that if someone has spiritual authority and then denies the faith and goes out and starts a porn site that he still has spiritual authority over everyone. Where does he get this stuff? It's nonsense. Worse, it's bullying. It's just a fear-based power play dressed up as some profound truth. It's an insult to the Lord and his Body.

It's long past time to start tuning these guys out. There has to be a better place to realize God's purpose than anything they are a part of.

[alwayslearning]

In the late 1980s Andrew Yu and Ron Kangas were paid employees of Witness Lee's publishing company LSM. Obviously they are going to write advertorials in support of their boss and hope their intended readership are gullible enough to swallow it. In my view they are just hucksters.

But astonishingly per material at Indiana's link on this thread some like Don Rutledge can't seem to grasp that Witness Lee was the common denominator in all the "turmoils". (Even while dead he was the common denominator in the BB v. Titus Chu split.)

There was no power struggle between Witness Lee and Max Rapoport. Rapoport knew that he did not have the same stature as Witness Lee in the LC system. He said and did things under the direction of Witness Lee who was actively and firmly at the helm running "the work". When Witness Lee's ideas and methods didn't work out he used Rapoport as a convenience scapegoat.

Furthermore an underlying issue WAS Philip Lee and his improprieties in the LSM office which Rapoport attempted to address in the late 1970s as did some coworkers and elders in the late 1980s. That is to say AFTER Rapoport was ousted the problem of Witness Lee (and his son) STILL persisted in the LC system for another decade or so until another batch of coworkers and elders were ousted for addressing some of the same issues.

So although what Andrew Yu wrote is nonsense to most people it is true for the LC system: Witness Lee is their MOTA, the authority that cannot be questioned, etc. And their history even up until today proves the point - his writings are more authoritative than the Bible itself and they even have divisions over who's interpretation of his writings are official, authentic etc.

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...and they even have divisions over who's interpretation of his writings are official, authentic etc.

True: now the local churches, which supposedly exist for the recovery of the one Body of Christ, are having divisions regarding which interpretations and applications of the ministry of Witness Lee are most appropriate to recover the oneness of the Body of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it. Saul was corrupted to the uttermost, but David always and with impeccability recognized Saul as God’s anointed authority.

The irony here is that Witness Lee and Sons lusted after the same kingly authority that Saul once enjoyed. Lee taught all his minions to behave like David, saying absolutely nothing about all the corruptions in his ministry. Francis Ball publicly stated that he would rather be an ostrich with his head in the ground, and he apparently was. Lee taught that King Saul was "corrupted to the uttermost," and that only God could deal with him, but did not Lee demand the same freedom from all culpability?

Lee loved to teach high and spiritual principles to the whole of the Recovery, yet never felt obligated to keep any of his own decrees. Lee taught never to mix business with the church, yet he did so with Daystar. Lee taught never to bring family members into the ministry, yet his son Philip ran LSM molesting sisters and abusing elders. Lee taught that we all should have been like "policemen" confronting Max Rapoport, yet when any stood up to speak their conscience to Lee, their reputations were immediately smeared.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee taught that King Saul was "corrupted to the uttermost," and that only God could deal with him, but did not Lee demand the same freedom from all culpability?

Coincidence? I think not.

Equally telling, to me, was that once Watchman Nee decided that the European Protestant churches in China were "corrupted to the uttermost" his ensuing revelation was that he didn't have to submit to their authority, "no, not even for an hour" (Gal 2:5).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Coincidence? I think not.

Equally telling, to me, was that once Watchman Nee decided that the European Protestant churches in China were "corrupted to the uttermost" his ensuing revelation was that he didn't have to submit to their authority, "no, not even for an hour" (Gal 2:5).

No, aron, not just coincidence.

I think the most effective means to uncover exclusive systems is to expose their hypocrisy. This is exactly what Jesus Himself did when confronting all the Jewish leaders of His day. Legalism, as a rule, always produces a system of man-pleasers who hide their true nature "out in public." They create rules they themselves cannot keep, and so they live a life of pretense.

Witness Lee, with the assistance of a continual cadre of blind sycophants, was able to maintain a mirage of holiness before all the LC's. He could never do it by himself. The inherent problem is that no leader can predict just how loyal his followers will be. Each man has his own "red line" when it comes to corruption.

As I have studied the history of the Recovery, it became obvious that each so-called "storm" or "rebellion" actually was certain leaders reacting to Lee's infringement on their own "red line." This caused some to speak their conscience in protest. Each of them had at one time loved the ministry of Witness Lee, yet his hypocrisy got exposed for them to see, and like a house of cards, it all seemed to suddenly crash.

This explains why so many dear brothers seemed to get "poisoned" and change overnight. The bubble popped, and the lights got turned on. All the hypocrisy was laid bare. Since none of it was ever dealt with properly, one whiff of the heaping pile of stench was all it took.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As I have studied the history of the Recovery, it became obvious that each so-called "storm" or "rebellion" actually was certain leaders reacting to Lee's infringement on their own "red line." This caused some to speak their conscience in protest. Each of them had at one time loved the ministry of Witness Lee, yet his hypocrisy got exposed for them to see, and like a house of cards, it all seemed to suddenly crash.

This explains why so many dear brothers seemed to get "poisoned" and change overnight. The bubble popped, and the lights got turned on. All the hypocrisy was laid bare. Since none of it was ever dealt with properly, one whiff of the heaping pile of stench was all it took.

I understand what you're saying Ohio. Based on your post's portion I had quoted I believe this is where the saying was developed, don't make an issue of persons, matters, or things.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee loved to teach high and spiritual principles to the whole of the Recovery, yet never felt obligated to keep any of his own decrees. Lee taught never to mix business with the church, yet he did so with Daystar. Lee taught never to bring family members into the ministry, yet his son Philip ran LSM molesting sisters and abusing elders. Lee taught that we all should have been like "policemen" confronting Max Rapoport, yet when any stood up to speak their conscience to Lee, their reputations were immediately smeared.

Hypocrisy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority. In the case where authority is corrupted, God is the One who deals with it, since he alone is the One who establishes it. It is not up to those under authority to scheme against it.

Here is a Recovery construct that is like an impenetrable fortress. Consider these questions which draw from Yu's theories ...

1. When did God establish that Witness Lee was His personal Deputy Authority over all the Local Churches with all their members?
2. Where in scripture does it say that God alone will "deal with" a corrupted authority? Numerous examples exist where God sent prophets or other men of God to failing leaders.
3. Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

You are right: Lee's characterizations of others does indeed reveal something about his own M.O. (modus operandi, i.e. 'way of doing things'). The real "scheme" here is that of creating a ministry which cannot be questioned or considered critically but must accepted in toto, as if it were straight from the mouth of God Himself.

All of which reminds me to be civil when I disagree with this kind of business going on in the church. If I am continually boiling over with indignation what does that say of me? Where is my own equanimity? Where is the expression of my own inner sense of peace?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here is a Recovery construct that is like an impenetrable fortress. Consider these questions which draw from Yu's theories ...

1. When did God establish that Witness Lee was His personal Deputy Authority over all the Local Churches with all their members?
2. Where in scripture does it say that God alone will "deal with" a corrupted authority? Numerous examples exist where God sent prophets or other men of God to failing leaders.
3. Why are genuine moral concerns, spoken from men of God, automatically labeled as "schemes"?

I agree this sort of "Recovery" construct is an impenetrable fortress. And it rises and falls on two fundamentals:

1. Witness Lee is the undisputed and unchallengeable authority. Since his death his writing and it's official interpreters/LSM senior management are this authority.

2. They are the only true legitimate church in God's eyes. The only place you can be sanctified, blessed, etc. They are Jerusalem so if you leave you only have one of two places to go: Egypt (the world) or Babylon (Christianity).

#1 allowed Witness Lee to do and teach whatever he wanted without recourse. This included having his abusive son run LSM with authority over elders, coworkers, full timers, etc.

#2 keeps you trapped in the system regardless of what Witness Lee said or did and this now extends to the BB.

Once a person realizes Witness Lee was just another flawed teacher who's writings are nothing but mere commentary and the LC system is just another church among many the mental shackles begin to fall away. The construct cannot remain intact without this foundation.

Some who get free from this bondage may still stay in the LC system for various reasons but they are awake to the realities of the situation. They just laugh or roll their eyes when they hear anything about the MOTA, the LC being the only church, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I agree this sort of "Recovery" construct is an impenetrable fortress.

A GLA elder moved out west for several years and tried to meet with the LC while he was there. He could not believe how dead and dormant the church and the elders were, so he eventually went to fellowship with the elders. After a short period of consideration, the elders decided to quarantine the dear brother, and warned all the saints about him.

Soon things changed, and the brother moved back to the GLA. Cleveland leaders caught wind of his arrival, and did their best to usher him back into the fold. He happened to mention to the Cleveland elders how the LC out west reacted to his honest endeavor to fellowship there.

The Cleveland elders thought it was the funniest thing they ever heard, "you went to those elders and told them how dead they were."

Then my friend made his simple case to them ...

1. If I go to the elders to fellowship, then I am labeled as opinionated.
2. If I fellowship with other brothers, then I am marked out as rebellious.
3. If I remain quiet and not fellowship, then I am branded as political.

Their laughter subsided.

Thus we have a closed and fortified stronghold in the Recovery, completely insulated from the living God and His word of life, unhelpable and unaccountable. These brothers have no opportunity to get any spiritual help. The irony is that the same impenetrable fortress surrounds Cleveland and their satellite LC's. Just try and fellowship with them. I tried, as did many others.

[Indiana]

Below are two very interesting quotes by Brother Lee.

''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing.''Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - Living Stream Ministry)


"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago."
(Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - Living Stream Ministry)


www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Below are two very interesting quotes by Brother Lee.

''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing.''Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - Living Stream Ministry)


"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago."
(Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - Living Stream Ministry)


www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Interesting in what way?

In how the police were "owned" by the ones who needed policing? ("I own you coppa!")

Someone needs to ask people like John Ingalls, and even the creator of this thread . . . "How's that working for ya?"

The fact that Lee ever said these things looks more and more like a ruse every day. It is the right thing to say. And when you have them under your spell, you can turn it on everyone else and avert the attention from the need to police the speaker.

Yes. Lee said those things. But he also made it clear that it did not apply to him. I know. He did say it applied to him when he had the meetings to "expose" Max R. But it was later denied as being applicable to him.

[OBW]

And this is the person on whose words we hung so lovingly (and many still do). A man who used truth to perpetuate lies.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing.''Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - Living Stream Ministry)

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Apparently, nothing has changed other than brothers who do dare to say something find themselves quarantined as in the GLA or disfellowshipped as in the case of "Indiana". The nature of the LC leadership; locally and extra-locally is to play politics. Their conscience knows better yet their mouths remain silent and the suffering goes on.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Below are two very interesting quotes by Brother Lee.

''I have heard that some brothers notice things happening that are not right, but they dare not say anything. To avoid getting involved, they stay silent and let the suffering go on. To do this is to play politics. This is what some of you have been practicing. Dear brothers, change your mind. Repent. Let us have no more such thing. (Practical Talks to Elders No. 2 - Feb 14, 1983 - pg 23, Witness Lee - LSM)

"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago." -- (Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - LSM)

Perhaps the stench of his hypocrisy will reach the heavens.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone claims to be for the ministry and yet...

I have highlighted the obvious concern of Witness Lee and the criteria by which he measured what was a "crime" in the LC system. We know by now that "the ministry" means his ministry and it's trappings i.e. LSM. And his ministry is "the truth" he is referring to. So he puts the onus on the churches at the local level to be cops to protect the imagined integrity of his extra-local ministry as if somehow that should be their concern.

In application this simply meant and still means if someone is not gung-ho for his ministry and his LSM and question it in anyway they are committing a "crime". Therefore we should all be alert and rise up to police these criminals on behalf of Witness Lee.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In application this simply meant and still means if someone is not gung-ho for his ministry and his LSM and question it in anyway they are committing a "crime". Therefore we should all be alert and rise up to police these criminals on behalf of Witness Lee.

Those that are not absolute for the ministry are marked out as being "cold", "lukewarm", etc. Usually identifed as a brother or sister "not in good standing".

Yes, as brother Sherman told brother Steve a little more than a decade ago, it takes a special calling to be in the recovery. Meaning you can be a general Christian and if you are not 100% absolute for the ministry, you aren't going to make it. The statement comes across as exclusive. An analogy; many can join the army, but very few can make the cut in Special Forces.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble. If someone [referring to Max Rapoport] claims to be for the ministry and yet goes about stealing and deceiving, we need to fulfill our function as policemen by checking him out according to the truth... If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth... Someone has even said that we should care only for the Spirit, not for principles. How subtle! ...If we all had practiced the truth, certain sayings and practices would have been questioned a long time ago." (Witness Lee - Truth Messages - Chapter 1, Section 2 - Living Stream Ministry)

This quote is almost mindboggling when one considers the context of actual events which transpired among us ...

1. In the mid-70's, Witness Lee was unquestionably regarded the most spiritual and most mature brother in all the Recovery.
2. Witness Lee personally charged Max Rapoport to visit the churches, bringing them into "coordination" with his ministry, under the guise of the "universal coordinator of the one new man."
3. Local churches invite Max Rapoport to speak and give conferences because they were instructed to do so by Witness Lee.
4. Max Rapoport faithfully carries out his assignments, bringing Witness Lee's "burdens" for the gospel all around the country, including his fellowship about "young Galileans."
5. Chaos ensues in multiple regions, prompting Witness Lee to chuck the program and throw Max Rapoport under the bus in order to save his own reputation.
6. Max Rapoport was accused of "stealing" the young people and "deceiving" the saints, when those who followed him to the campuses thought they were being "one with Witness Lee."
7. Witness Lee then places further blame and responsibility on all the elders and saints for not being proper "policemen," checking out Max Rapoport according to the truth.
8. Witness Lee thus absolves himself of all culpability, successfully blaming all others for what he himself solely caused to take place.
9. All responsible brothers in the Recovery thus need to publicly repent for their horrible failures al the while Witness Lee maintains his own pristine image and rises to new levels of exaltation.
10. Once again the sins of Lee's sons are hidden from sight, and the stage is set to repeat the cycle again.

I agree with Witness Lee ... "how subtle!"

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This quote is almost mindboggling when one considers the context of actual events which transpired among us ...

1. In the mid-70's, Witness Lee was unquestionably regarded the most spiritual and most mature brother in all the Recovery.
2. Witness Lee personally charged Max Rapoport to visit the churches, bringing them into "coordination" with his ministry, under the guise of the "universal coordinator of the one new man."
3. Local churches invite Max Rapoport to speak and give conferences because they were instructed to do so by Witness Lee.
4. Max Rapoport faithfully carries out his assignments, bringing Witness Lee's "burdens" for the gospel all around the country, including his fellowship about "young Galileans."
5. Chaos ensues in multiple regions, prompting Witness Lee to chuck the program and throw Max Rapoport under the bus in order to save his own reputation.
6. Max Rapoport was accused of "stealing" the young people and "deceiving" the saints, when those who followed him to the campuses thought they were being "one with Witness Lee."
7. Witness Lee then places further blame and responsibility on all the elders and saints for not being proper "policemen," checking out Max Rapoport according to the truth.
8. Witness Lee thus absolves himself of all culpability, successfully blaming all others for what he himself solely caused to take place.
9. All responsible brothers in the Recovery thus need to publicly repent for their horrible failures al the while Witness Lee maintains his own pristine image and rises to new levels of exaltation.
10. Once again the sins of Lee's sons are hidden from sight, and the stage is set to repeat the cycle again.

I agree with Witness Lee ... "how subtle!"

An excellent description of Witness Lee's MO! He was subtle enough to have a front man who he could easily scapegoat for any parts of his plans and methods that went awry and still end up with what he wanted in the first place.

In the case of the "young Galileans" flow he wanted a base audience and support for his new "Ministry Station" set up in Anaheim. What better way to start churches throughout Orange County from scratch than to convince young people from all over the country to move there? Voila! Insta-churches in Fullerton, Irvine, Cypress, Costa Mesa, etc. all flocking to Anaheim to hear him speak week after week. And conveniently positioned to provide hospitality for his 10 ten trainings, conferences, etc.

But of course if you do this elders and coworkers will get upset because suddenly the young people leave enmasse for Orange County and your local young people's work is decimated. No problem...let Max Rapoport take the heat!

This alone won't be enough to oust Rapoport but it will definitely get the wheels rolling. Now all that needs to happen is a confrontation with Philip Lee over his immoral behavior in LSM. Throw in an accusation that Sandy Rapoport is part of some so-called "sister's rebellion". Add in some grumbling coworkers who think Rapoport is nothing but a two-bit upstart who isn't "spiritual" enough for their tastes. And there ya go! All the ingredients necessary for kicking Rapoport and his family to the curb - and I mean that in the literal sense of word.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thus we have a closed and fortified stronghold in the Recovery, completely insulated from the living God and His word of life, unhelpable and unaccountable. These brothers have no opportunity to get any spiritual help. The irony is that the same impenetrable fortress surrounds Cleveland and their satellite LC's. Just try and fellowship with them. I tried, as did many others.

The BB in Anaheim and Titus & Co in Cleveland are merely apples that didn't fall too far from the same tree. Witness Lee was deaf to substantial counsel and so his is fruit! (BTW this is why IMHO they can't get along. It is The Extension of Witness Lee v The Extension of Witness Lee and in the world of Witness Lee there can only be one Witness Lee.)

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Indiana

In his book Andrew Yu calls for blind loyalty, stating that God wants His authority established in the church, and this order is brought in and maintained by divine authority and by submission to it. Then he submits that….“Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned. There is no such thing as the revoking, overthrowing, or expiration of authority.

Except if that person in authority disagrees with Witness Lee. In which case his authority can be overturned, revoked, overthrown and expired. Why? Because Witness Lee said so!

Ahhh...but now Witness Lee is dead and authority has apparently been transferred to a committee. And this committee at LSM HQ has the authority to overturn, revoke, overthrow and expire the authority of a coworker/apostle like Titus Chu. This governing body/committee/board is The Authority over all others in the LC system. If you are an elder or coworker and refuse to submit to this bunch then: Surprise - we overturned you're authority! Goodbye!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

This governing body/committee/board is The Authority over all others in the LC system. If you are an elder or coworker and refuse to submit to this bunch then: Surprise - we overturned you're authority! Goodbye!

Alwayslearning, the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority". Seems delegated authority is at the local level and this delegated authority can be revoked if you are not man-honoring, placating, partial to the committee known as BB's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

. . . the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority".

In practice it's trickle down authority ; the only authority, cuz it's top down.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

Alwayslearning, the two terminologies regarding authority I have heard are "deputy authority" and "delegated authority". Seems delegated authority is at the local level and this delegated authority can be revoked if you are not man-honoring, placating, partial to the committee known as BB's.

Yes there may be such a nuance. But Titus Chu in terms of the LC system is an apostle/coworker with apostolic authority i.e. beyond the local level. Yet this committee at LSM HQ 3,000 miles away decided to oust him and fully expected their edict to be carried out globally.

And of course this whole idea of a committee ousting apostles can be found no where in the NT. Even Andrew Yu in his weird little book writes: "Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned." A committee is not an authority. So if Titus Chu is a spiritual authority to others per their own words the fact can never be overturned. And yet there Andrew was with his big mouth open in Whistler helping to oust Titus. The hypocrisy of the LC system leadership knows no bounds!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Yes there may be such a nuance. But Titus Chu in terms of the LC system is an apostle/coworker with apostolic authority i.e. beyond the local level. Yet this committee at LSM HQ 3,000 miles away decided to oust him and fully expected their edict to be carried out globally.

And of course this whole idea of a committee ousting apostles can be found no where in the NT. Even Andrew Yu in his weird little book writes: "Once a certain member is a spiritual authority to others, the fact can never be overturned." A committee is not an authority. So if Titus Chu is a spiritual authority to others per their own words the fact can never be overturned. And yet there Andrew was with his big mouth open in Whistler helping to oust Titus. The hypocrisy of the LC system leadership knows no bounds!

On the topic of authority something further needs to be said. Among the local churches, there is an unhealthy application of authority. Primarily when the leaders respected as authority (locally or extra-locally) are considered above reproach, rebuke, and accountability.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Terry

On the topic of authority something further needs to be said. Among the local churches, there is an unhealthy application of authority. Primarily when the leaders respected as authority (locally or extra-locally) are considered above reproach, rebuke, and accountability.

"The Local Churches have well-earned the reputation of bringing others to accountability for perceived wrongs committed against them, while never being able to subject themselves to others who would examine them. Thoughtful, sound, scriptural writings on the internet from Nigel Tomes, David Canfield, and Dave Shields are ignored. Don Rutledge also has weighty fellowship on the internet that warrants sober thought from LC leadership....." (2006) Steve Isitt

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

On the topic of authority something further needs to be said. Among the local churches, there is an unhealthy application of authority. Primarily when the leaders respected as authority (locally or extra-locally) are considered above reproach, rebuke, and accountability.

I completely agree but sadly this is how their system works. The MOTA i.e. Witness Lee was the top global apostle with absolute authority. (And somehow this authority was passed on to the committee at LSM HQ.) Under him were regional apostles. Under them were elders. Elders were accountable to their Regional and Regionals to the MOTA. Notice none of them are accountable to the local flocks for any of their behavior, teachings, etc.

Of course the elders are mere puppets to do and teach whatever their Regional and the MOTA tell them to. They have no say in the matter if they want to keep their position. So really the only authority they have is to blindly implement whatever comes down the pike from HQ and to make sure the locals are following along blindly without comment, opinion or - God forbid - a contrary thought spoken out loud!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

a contrary thought spoken out loud!

You're touching on a subject I have long wondered what elders, deacons, co-workers really think. Are they really devoid of their conscience? I don't think so. I do believe why some responsible brothers have suffered mental anguish is tied directly to not speaking their contrary thoughts and keeping their contrary thoughts from being uttered.
Verbally they will say "I'm one with the brothers" or "I respect the feeling of the Body". It's the system that has kept them in one accord superficially because without the system and apart from Christ, there is no way to genuinely be in one accord.
One Accord from the LSM/LC system is truly a facade. Once contrary thoughts are utttered, then you see brothers are not in really in one accord as they would like everyone else to see them as.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I completely agree but sadly this is how their system works. The MOTA i.e. Witness Lee was the top global apostle with absolute authority. (And somehow this authority was passed on to the committee at LSM HQ.) Under him were regional apostles. Under them were elders. Elders were accountable to their Regional and Regionals to the MOTA. Notice none of them are accountable to the local flocks for any of their behavior, teachings, etc.

Of course the elders are mere puppets to do and teach whatever their Regional and the MOTA tell them to. They have no say in the matter if they want to keep their position. So really the only authority they have is to blindly implement whatever comes down the pike from HQ and to make sure the locals are following along blindly without comment, opinion or - God forbid - a contrary thought spoken out loud!

Now, I don't doubt these brothers are authorities. They can and have in some places determine who's not welcome and most have authority when to set meeting times and when to close the meetings.

I have severe reservation whether or not local/extra-local authorities are under the headship of Christ. If they are, there would be far more instances of accountability to brothers and sisters instead of being puppets of the ministry.