Prophecy - The End Times

[Nell]

While researching for this topic, I recently found this golden oldie posted by Ohio on 10/15/2015. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I came across this sobering article today ...

Quote:
In front of the United Nations General Assembly, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not only stare for forty seconds into the eyes of the world’s representatives, charging them of having kept silent in the face of Iran’s promise to destroy Israel. Netanyahu also pulled out a book in Farsi (language of Iran). The author is the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and he writes that “within 25 years there will be no more Israel”.

There is a date recurring obsessively in the proclamations of the leaders of the Arab-Islamic world: 2022. It is the year that they have reserved for the end of Israel. “By 2022, possibly earlier, Israel will be destroyed” has just said Hassan Rahimpour Azghadi of Iran’s Supreme Council for the Revolution, the right arm of Khamenei.

A year ago, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad said that the Palestinian Arabs will liberate all of Palestine “within eight years”. So - in 2022. Last May, in an interview on Lebanese channel Nbn TV, the imam of the mosque of Al Quds in Sidon, Maher Hamoud, said that “according to calculations based on the Koran the end of Israel will be in 2022”. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, shared the same vision.

Another Iranian book, published earlier this year and based on the occult sciences, interpretation of the Koran and mathematical calculations, says Israel will be destroyed in 2022.

Recently, the Islamic State published a book stating that “the beginning of the end of Israel will be in 2022”, two years after the fall of Rome, the symbol of Christianity. “In 2022 the fourty years of peace and security of Israel will be over”. The key text of this Islamic hallucination is entitled “The collapse of the Israeli empire in 2022” and is written by a Palestinian Arab scholar, Bassam Nihad Jarrar. The book, published in Arabic in 1990, was translated into English and widely distributed in Malaysia. Since then, it is a bestseller in the Arab-Islamic world.

A date, that of 2022, which has almost become a legend. A Syrian journalist interviewed by the television of the Palestinian Authority said he was aware of a report that the CIA had informed then US president Bill Clinton that Israel would not exist after 2022.


According to Daniel's prophecy, should the last week of years begin very soon, then Armageddon would occur in 2022. Within these past few days, the third intifada may have begun over rumors spread concerning Mooslim holy places in Jerusalem. The US recently did nothing when Coptics were slaughtered in Libya, Yazidis in Iraq, Sunnis in Syria, Ukraine invaded, etc. Iran and Russia watched our inaction in unbelief, and have thus acted aggressively in the vacuum. They know that Israel is now on her own.

[Ohio]

I can prophesy, with life and death assurance, that Israel may suffer losses during future attacks by their many enemies, but in the end Jesus Christ Himself will fight on behalf of Israel, and slay their enemies.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I can prophesy, with life and death assurance, that Israel may suffer losses during future attacks by their many enemies, but in the end Jesus Christ Himself will fight on behalf of Israel, and slay their enemies.

Thanks Ohio...boy, you really went out on a limb there !

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Ohio...boy, you really went out on a limb there !

Nell

Faith comes with risks at times.

[Timotheist]

thanks for (re)posting this. I was not aware of this at all. Looks like we should be even more watchful in 2022. Seems to be a year where an attempt to "fulfill a prophecy" may occur.

I hope Homeland Security is more aware of this stuff than I am.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

thanks for (re)posting this. I was not aware of this at all. Looks like we should be even more watchful in 2022. Seems to be a year where an attempt to "fulfill a prophecy" may occur.

I hope Homeland Security is more aware of this stuff than I am.

Apparently the CIA read the article, or it read something.

I remember hearing in 2015, the news when Netanyahu paused for 40 seconds in his speech to the UN. There is a longstanding UN policy of bias against Israel, as with most of the world. As for fulfilling a prophecy, The only "prophecy" against the existance of Israel is Muhammed and radical Islam.

From the article: "Netanyahu did not only stare for forty seconds into the eyes of the world’s representatives, charging them of having kept silent in the face of Iran’s promise to destroy Israel. Netanyahu also pulled out a book in Farsi (language of Iran). The author is the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and he writes that “within 25 years there will be no more Israel”."

God, on the other hand, made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3;
Genesis 12:1-3
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Ohio's prophecy is founded in God's covenant with Abraham.

Nell

[Zezima]

Why does the nation state of Israel matter? Isn’t the church the true Israel? Aren’t all the promises made to Abraham fulfilled in Jesus?

It’s interesting that the Lord’s Recovery claims to be returning to the original truths, but use dispensational theology to interpret the Bible. A framework that is only 200 years old.

[Timotheist]

Not worried about Israel. Just the Homeland. There is no covenant with the US

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why does the nation state of Israel matter? Isn’t the church the true Israel? Aren’t all the promises made to Abraham fulfilled in Jesus?

Israel is important because of God’s promises, covenants, and prophecies, recorded in His Word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Not worried about Israel. Just the Homeland. There is no covenant with the US

God promised Abraham that He would “bless those who blessed him and his descendants.” This was the reason the US was blessed in the past.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why does the nation state of Israel matter? Isn’t the church the true Israel? Aren’t all the promises made to Abraham fulfilled in Jesus?

It’s interesting that the Lord’s Recovery claims to be returning to the original truths, but use dispensational theology to interpret the Bible. A framework that is only 200 years old.

I was hoping that I would never see this thread here, but I guess it is what it is.

I’ll just respond with this,
“What MOTA is to LSM/LC, so is the Israel to the modern day Churchianity”

According, to the recovery Israel is still important in the end times because of God's promise to Abraham. And that the Jews are still God's people in the old creation. However, because the Jews deny Jesus and are rebellious against God He will punish them as He has throughout history this time with the anti Christ in Europe. Killing 2/3 I believe is the number.

But further according to the recovery the great tribulation won't begin until mature, transformed saints are raptured to heaven. The co workers say we are different. And in the last few years I see the saints are different. Im not sure if the God the co workers present to us is the God of the universe in the heavens.
To keep it simple i don't think God is super sensitive, gets easily offended and thinks most things are sinful or worldly.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Not worried about Israel. Just the Homeland. There is no covenant with the US

Hopefully, as this topic progresses, we can gain a better understanding of why we should "worry about Israel". Here's a hint: those countries who hate Israel, also hate the United States. Remember the chants of "Death to America"? They mean it.

As for "no covenant with the US", Ohio is right, as stated in the Abrahamic covenant: "blessing on those who bless Israel." Part of the Abrahamic covenant v.3 "and in the all families of the earth be blessed". That's us. That's the Gentiles. So, incorporating by reference, the US is indeed included in the Abrahamic covenant because of God's people, the Gentiles, who live here.

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

thanks for (re)posting this. I was not aware of this at all. Looks like we should be even more watchful in 2022. Seems to be a year where an attempt to "fulfill a prophecy" may occur.

I hope Homeland Security is more aware of this stuff than I am.

Please note that as of 2021-22, the US Department of Homeland Security supports a policy of "open borders" on the US southern border. Last I heard, citizens of over 100 countries have been caught, crossing the US Border. This gives ample opportunity for enemies of the US to freely enter the country. The only real Homeland Security is God Himself.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Isn’t the church the true Israel? Aren’t all the promises made to Abraham fulfilled in Jesus?

I've heard that too. I would need some scriptural support.

Nell

[Nell]

To backtrack a bit, the Abrahamic Covenant wasn't the first prophecy. The first prophecy begins in Genesis and is fully fulfilled by the book of Revelation.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This emboldened statement above is the first prophecy. To the serpent God says: “it (the seed of woman, Jesus Christ) shall bruise your head (the head of the serpent), and you (the serpent) shall bruise his heel.”

At this point, sin had entered into this newly created world and as a result, the first Adam had been driven out of the garden which God had created for him. We are not told that Eve was driven from the garden. It appears that Adam’s wife, Eve, had willingly left the garden with her husband.

Gen. 3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Outside the garden, Adam had no choice but to till the ground…to make his own garden…in order to survive. They had 2 sons. Soon, one son killed the other. Then another son, Seth.

[Timotheist]

Regarding my concern about the US and the rebuttal:

I was fully aware of the verses quoted in this very thread.

If the US was allowed to flourish so that one day she would protect Israel, she has slipped greatly during a time of need. If Iran produces a nuclear weapon, that will be on us.

If it is God's will to protect Israel from this weapon, then it would only be just that it go off over here.

I think its more than a little naïve to think that God would protect the US from severe damage, or even Israel for that matter. After all, as a nation, they were not even around for 1900 years.

I betcha Judah was quoting these same verses when Titus rolled into town.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hopefully, as this topic progresses, we can gain a better understanding of why we should "worry about Israel". Here's a hint: those countries who hate Israel, also hate the United States. Remember the chants of "Death to America"? They mean it.

As for "no covenant with the US", Ohio is right, as stated in the Abrahamic covenant: "blessing on those who bless Israel." Part of the Abrahamic covenant v.3 "and in the all families of the earth be blessed". That's us. That's the Gentiles. So, incorporating by reference, the US is indeed included in the Abrahamic covenant because of God's people, the Gentiles, who live here.

It seems some folks don't understand that the descendants of Abraham are of two types, earthly and heavenly, as the scripture says, "will number the sand of the seashore, and the stars of heaven." (Genesis 22.17) Abraham has both children in the flesh and children of faith. The Christian believers are the children of faith, and the Jews are children of the flesh.

These only the positive descendants of Abraham, spoken of in scripture. Abraham also has a multitude of offspring thru Ishmael, many of which are today's Muslims. And unfortunately many today who have Jewish blood from Abraham neither believe in God nor love Israel. In fact, many of the greatest enemies to the faith and to the Jews, and for that matter the entirety of Western Judean Christian civilization, have Jewish blood.

The statement occasionally arises concerning how someone with Jewish ancestry can be anti-semitic. But was not Hitler himself a quarter Jewish?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by yoguy00

According, to the recovery Israel is still important in the end times because of God's promise to Abraham. And that the Jews are still God's people in the old creation. However, because the Jews deny Jesus and are rebellious against God He will punish them as He has throughout history this time with the anti Christ in Europe. Killing 2/3 I believe is the number.

But further according to the recovery the great tribulation won't begin until mature, transformed saints are raptured to heaven. The co workers say we are different. And in the last few years I see the saints are different. Im not sure if the God the co workers present to us is the God of the universe in the heavens.
To keep it simple i don't think God is super sensitive, gets easily offended and thinks most things are sinful or worldly.

The LR’s interpretation of modern day Israel comes from a form of interpretation called dispensationalism. It’s how they approach the Bible to interpret it. It’s very appealing way to interpret the Bible because it makes people feel that their own life / time of history are part of gods final act.

Historically it’s a very new theology, one that is really only popular in the USA. It’s not limited to the LR, but it’s a minority of believers in the USA.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

To backtrack a bit, the Abrahamic Covenant wasn't the first prophecy. The first prophecy begins in Genesis and is fully fulfilled by the book of Revelation.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This emboldened statement above is the first prophecy. To the serpent God says: “it (the seed of woman, Jesus Christ) shall bruise your head (the head of the serpent), and you (the serpent) shall bruise his heel.”

At this point, sin had entered into this newly created world and as a result, the first Adam had been driven out of the garden which God had created for him. We are not told that Eve was driven from the garden. It appears that Adam’s wife, Eve, had willingly left the garden with her husband.

Gen. 3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Outside the garden, Adam had no choice but to till the ground…to make his own garden…in order to survive. They had 2 sons. Soon, one son killed the other. Then another son, Seth.

Can argue that the first covenant was in Genesis 2. “ Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Establishing a covenant of works.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Can argue that the first covenant was in Genesis 2. “ Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Establishing a covenant of works.

Well...it's definitely a commandment. I don't know if a commandment can be a covenant, too.

Definition of covenant: It presupposes two or more parties who come together to make a contract, agreeing on promises, stipulations, privileges, and responsibilities.

When God said "you must not eat", he wasn't seeking Adam's agreement, IMHO, was he?

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems some folks don't understand that the descendants of Abraham are of two types, earthly and heavenly, as the scripture says, "will number the sand of the seashore, and the stars of heaven." (Genesis 22.17) Abraham has both children in the flesh and children of faith. The Christian believers are the children of faith, and the Jews are children of the flesh.

These only the positive descendants of Abraham, spoken of in scripture. Abraham also has a multitude of offspring thru Ishmael, many of which are today's Muslims. And unfortunately many today who have Jewish blood from Abraham neither believe in God nor love Israel. In fact, many of the greatest enemies to the faith and to the Jews, and for that matter the entirety of Western Judean Christian civilization, have Jewish blood.

The statement occasionally arises concerning how someone with Jewish ancestry can be anti-semitic. But was not Hitler himself a quarter Jewish?

Thanks, Ohio, for providing this perspective, and for opening the door on a major factor in end time prophecy: Ishmael.

"Islamic lore reports that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca, and Ishmael is considered a patriarch of Islam. While it is not accurate to say that all Arabs are descended from Ishmael, many probably are. There is still a great deal of strife between the descendants of Isaac and those who see Ishmael as their father. One wonders how things might have been different had Abraham simply trusted God to bring about His promise without any added “help” from Abraham and Sarah." gotquestions.com (Yeah. Really.)

Abraham loved his firstborn son, Ishmael, and prayed to God on his behalf. God heard Abraham’s prayers.
Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Here is a character lesson on who God is. God's covenant was established with Isaac, but as a descendent of Abraham, God was bound toward Ishmael also.

As to the veracity of Islamic lore, we cannot say, but the "strife" between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael is undeniable.

That "great deal of strife" can be described, today, as Radical Islam. The Arab countries geographically surround Israel and politically deny that she has the right to exist. Radical Islam also hates those nations who bless the descendants of Isaac.

Jerusalem has been fought over by every major power in history.
• The Babylonians held it.
• Then the Medes and Persians.
• Alexander the Great took Palestine for the Greeks in 333 BC.
• Later the Egyptians and Syrians alternately had it until
• the Romans.
• Islamic invaders took control until replaced by
• the Crusaders.
• Later, Islamic Egypt.
• Then the Ottoman Turkish Empire ruled for about 400 years.

"It so happened that in the early twentieth century the British Empire was drawn into a war that would involve the Ottoman Turkish Empire, the power that, at the time, ruled over the land of Israel. During the war (World War I) the Ottoman Empire crumbled, and British forces led by General Edmund Allenby entered the Holy Land. The British would take the city of Jerusalem without a fight. " The Shemitah, Jonathan Cahn

This is one good reason for us to care about Israel.

Nell

[Ohio]

When we typically speak of “The End Times, ” we speak of major events prophesied in scripture. Many of these center on Israel. Just read thru the whole Bible, and see if you agree with me.

For approximately 1900 years, the status of the nation of Israel was “deceased.” Many, many had predicted the end of the world before that, yet there will be no end until certain realities about Israel happened. For example, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, and Daniel 9 all correspond and point to “someone” exalting himself in the temple of God, and desecrating it. Jesus Himself mentions this major event will occur in the future, so it could not have happened already. Neither did Vespasian nor his son Titus fit the description.

How could this happen without the nation of Israel (1948), and without the city of Jerusalem (1967) recognized as their capital (2018)? Yet these events, against all odds, have already occurred!

And how can this happen without their Temple rebuilt with the Ark of the Covenant?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When we typically speak of “The End Times, ” we speak of major events prophesied in scripture. Many of these center on Israel. Just read thru the whole Bible, and see if you agree with me.

For approximately 1900 years, the status of the nation of Israel was “deceased.” Many, many had predicted the end of the world before that, yet there will be no end until certain realities about Israel happened. For example, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, and Daniel 9 all correspond and point to “someone” exalting himself in the temple of God, and desecrating it. Jesus Himself mentions this major event will occur in the future, so it could not have happened already. Neither did Vespasian nor his son Titus fit the description.

How could this happen without the nation of Israel (1948), and without the city of Jerusalem (1967) recognized as their capital (2018)? Yet these events, against all odds, have already occurred!

And how can this happen without their Temple rebuilt with the Ark of the Covenant?

Exactly.

History records:
Israel is one of the smallest nations on earth. Yet, the Nation of Israel has never been defeated in battle. (Since established in 1948)

In addition, “History records that Israel stands at the graves of its enemies.” David Jeremiah

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Right, I understand the school of teaching, but it stems from dispensational theology which is a framework that is pretty new on the scene. A lot of those things your mentioned when using that framework make sense. However without that framework they don’t, so it’s challenging to believe them if they only make sense through the lens of a theology that is only 200 years old and wasn’t practiced by the historic church.

Modern day Israel plays no role in eschatology, but rather the church is the true one Israel, and all the promises made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus. It would be redemptive regression to build a physical temple when the kingdom of God dwells among us.

Zezima,

Thank you for your opinion. However, this is off-topic.

We are discussing Prophecy and the End Times as stated in 2000+ years of Scripture. We are not discussing any "school of teaching", other than the Word itself.

Further diversion from the topic will be treated as any other off-topic post.

Nell
Admin

[Zezima]

- Romans 11:17-24 discusses the church being grafted into the remnant of Israel
- Galatians 3:26-29 says that all baptized in Christ are of Abraham’s seed.
- Ephesians makes the case that the dividing wall has been broken down.
- There’s not a single verse in the Bible that teaches the temple will rebuilt a third time. Christ is the temple now, why would god expect another temple where animal sacrifices are acceptable? Seems to go against what the scripture says.

Why do you think modern day nation state Israel has to do with end times?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Zezima

- Romans 11:17-24 discusses the church being grafted into the remnant of Israel
- Galatians 3:26-29 says that all baptized in Christ are of Abraham’s seed.
- Ephesians makes the case that the dividing wall has been broken down.
- There’s not a single verse in the Bible that teaches the temple will rebuilt a third time. Christ is the temple now, why would god expect another temple where animal sacrifices are acceptable? Seems to go against what the scripture says.

Why do you think modern day nation state Israel has to do with end times?

Well, at least for me the first church I attended after being saved was Baptist and they taught the dispensational view of the end times, pre-tribulation rapture, etc. It wasn’t until later in my Christian life that I learned that dispensational theology was first expounded by Darby of the Brethren church, and that the early church did not teach dispensational theology in which Israel becomes reinstated as a country and the Jewish temple is rebuilt.

I think this area of theology is one where followers of Christ can have opposing views and still maintain fellowship. Although I hope that there is a pre-trib rapture, I’m not betting the farm on it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

- Romans 11:17-24 discusses the church being grafted into the remnant of Israel
- Galatians 3:26-29 says that all baptized in Christ are of Abraham’s seed.
- Ephesians makes the case that the dividing wall has been broken down.
- There’s not a single verse in the Bible that teaches the temple will rebuilt a third time. Christ is the temple now, why would god expect another temple where animal sacrifices are acceptable? Seems to go against what the scripture says.

Why do you think modern day nation state Israel has to do with end times?

Follow this thread please. You should get some answers.

Nell
Admin

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, at least for me the first church I attended after being saved was Baptist and they taught the dispensational view of the end times, pre-tribulation rapture, etc. It wasn’t until later in my Christian life that I learned that dispensational theology was first expounded by Darby of the Brethren church, and that the early church did not teach dispensational theology in which Israel becomes reinstated as a country and the Jewish temple is rebuilt.

I think this area of theology is one where followers of Christ can have opposing views and still maintain fellowship. Although I hope that there is a pre-trib rapture, I’m not betting the farm on it.

Right, but according to this thread discussing theological perspectives that produce different end times prophecy is prohibited.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Right, but according to this thread discussing theological perspectives that produce different end times prophecy is prohibited.

Thanks, I did not know that.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

Thanks, I did not know that.

Thanks HERn. We need to stay on topic on this one. I appreciate your understanding.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Follow this thread please. You should get some answers.

Nell
Admin

Nell,

Based on the discussion here, is there a thread that actually exists here or can be stated discussing the non-dispensational views on this forum? Darby/Scofield futurism doctrines, or those are off limits?

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

Based on the discussion here, is there a thread that actually exists here or can be stated discussing the non-dispensational views on this forum? Darby/Scofield futurism doctrines, or those are off limits?

Thanks

This topic is as stated…Prophecy - The End Times…based on the scripture. “alternative views” are off topic on this thread, and this forum.

PM UntoHim and I if you have questions.

Nell
Admin

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

This topic is as stated…Prophecy - The End Times…based on the scripture. “alternative views” are off topic on this thread, and this forum.

PM UntoHim and I if you have questions.

Nell
Admin

Thanks for the reply, I had the feeling of that so good to know for future.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Thanks for the reply, I had the feeling of that so good to know for future.

Thanks for asking!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

- Romans 11:17-24 discusses the church being grafted into the remnant of Israel
- Galatians 3:26-29 says that all baptized in Christ are of Abraham’s seed.
- Ephesians makes the case that the dividing wall has been broken down.
- There’s not a single verse in the Bible that teaches the temple will rebuilt a third time. Christ is the temple now, why would god expect another temple where animal sacrifices are acceptable? Seems to go against what the scripture says.

Why do you think modern day nation state Israel has to do with end times?

Being Israel and being Jewish in the Bible are far more complicated than your post implies. The same with the church and the rapture.

Yes, all those baptized into Christ are Abraham’s seed, but Abraham’s seed includes many who are not baptized into Christ.

Yes, the dividing wall has been broken down for Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ.

Yes, Jesus is the Tabernacle of God, and believers are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Did you read my post? The Bible does not say the Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem the 3rd time, but Daniel, Jesus, and Paul point to the Temple being desecrated at the end of times. This cannot happen unless it is rebuilt.

Daniel 9 has prophesied that Israel will have one more week of 7 years, which have not yet occurred. Israel has their nation and their holy city, but they do not yet have Mt. Zion or their Temple.

[Nell]

I will make of thee a great nation
In 1917, the Balfour Declaration transferred rule of the middle-eastern region known as Palestine to the British Empire as a temporary national home for Jewish people.

In 1948, the Balfour Declaration was scheduled to expire and Great Britain would no longer rule Palestine. The question over what to do with the tumultuous country was turned over to the United Nations who would eventually decide to create the new country of Israel, specifically as a promised homeland for Jewish people.

The new country was to be located across the various holy locations in which many events of the Old Testament occurred and, according to the Bible, was promised to the Jewish people by God.
…on authority of the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12:1-3

*****************

David Ben-Gurion, flanked by the members of his provisional government, reads the Declaration of Independence in the Tel Aviv Museum Hall on May 14, 1948 (Israel Government Press Office).

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
“The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, defiant returnees, and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country’s inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.”
…

**************

May 14, 1948 - US President officially recognizes Israel
U.S. President Harry Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a legitimate Jewish state, only eleven minutes after its creation.

**********************

May 14, 2018 - US President Moves Embassy to Jerusalem

Nell

[Nell]

A True Story

In the nineteenth century, revival swept through England. One of the fruits of that revival was a love for the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. Exemplifying that love was the prayer one English boy had been taught by his mother to include in his devotions:

O Lord, we would not forget Thine ancient people, Israel; hasten the day
when Israel shall again be Thy people and shall be restored to Thy favor
and to their land.

It so happened that in the early twentieth century the British Empire was drawn into a war that would involve the Ottoman Turkish Empire, the power that, at the time, ruled over the land of Israel. During the war the Ottoman Empire crumbled, and British forces led by General Edmund Allenby entered the Holy Land. The British would take the city of Jerusalem without a fight.

Allenby was the boy who had prayed every night for God to restore the Jewish people to their ancient homeland. Now it was he who, as a British general, was the key instrument in bringing it about. For the first time in two thousand years the land was in the hands of a power sympathetic to the Jewish people. --Jonathan Cahn

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Being Israel and being Jewish in the Bible are far more complicated than your post implies. The same with the church and the rapture.

Any discussion apart from the dispensationalist framework has been rejected from this thread, I’d like to reply further but alternative hermeneutical theology is not allowed. Reminds me of open dialogue in the LR.. what has this forum become?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Any discussion apart from the dispensationalist framework has been rejected from this thread, I’d like to reply further but alternative hermeneutical theology is not allowed. Reminds me of open dialogue in the LR.. what has this forum become?

Glad you asked. This forum has become true to its mission, rules and instructions from the Moderators. As believers, and adults, we should all be able to respect and understand that we don't always get our way.

We invite the participation of members and guests. In return we ask that you simply respect your host.

You are welcome to respectfully follow the thread as you have been invited to do. You might learn something. Further discussion of the direction of this thread should be addressed to UntoHim and I through the PM system.

Thanks--

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Any discussion apart from the dispensationalist framework has been rejected from this thread, I’d like to reply further but alternative hermeneutical theology is not allowed. Reminds me of open dialogue in the LR.. what has this forum become?

I don't know anything about your "dispensationalist framework" or other "alternative hermeneutical theology," rather I am just using the Bible like you tried to do in post #26.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

A True Story

In the nineteenth century, revival swept through England. One of the fruits of that revival was a love for the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. Exemplifying that love was the prayer one English boy had been taught by his mother to include in his devotions:

O Lord, we would not forget Thine ancient people, Israel; hasten the day
when Israel shall again be Thy people and shall be restored to Thy favor
and to their land.

It so happened that in the early twentieth century the British Empire was drawn into a war that would involve the Ottoman Turkish Empire, the power that, at the time, ruled over the land of Israel. During the war the Ottoman Empire crumbled, and British forces led by General Edmund Allenby entered the Holy Land. The British would take the city of Jerusalem without a fight.

Allenby was the boy who had prayed every night for God to restore the Jewish people to their ancient homeland. Now it was he who, as a British general, was the key instrument in bringing it about. For the first time in two thousand years the land was in the hands of a power sympathetic to the Jewish people. --Jonathan Cahn

Great story, Nell.

Regarding Israel, as someone once said, "there are no such things as coincidences, for those of us who believe God."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great story, Nell.

Regarding Israel, as someone once said, "there are no such things as coincidences, for those of us who believe God."

Yep. I love this story. And since you've twisted my arm, here's another one for you. :-)

1967: The Six-Day War
In the spring of 1967 the Egyptian government, acting on false reports of an Israeli attack provided by the Soviet Union, ordered a full mobilization of the Egyptian military in preparation for war with Israel. … On June 5 Israel launched Operation Focus, a series of surprise airstrikes on Egyptian and Arab air force bases. It was the beginning of the Six-Day War.

In Israel’s war of independence Jordanian forces had seized the ancient city of Jerusalem…. On June 7 Israeli troops approached the ancient city of Jerusalem held by Jordanian troops. General Mordechai Gur announced to his commanders:

"We’re sitting right now on the ridge and we’re seeing the Old City. Shortly we’re going to go into the Old City of Jerusalem, that all generations have dreamed about. . . . "

"Jerusalem Returned
The Israeli paratroopers entered the Lion’s Gate and made their way through the cobblestone streets of the ancient city. They advanced toward the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. It was the first time that Jewish soldiers were seen in biblical Jerusalem since ancient times when the Romans destroyed it.

They reach the Western Wall, the holiest site of Judaism. There, looking up at the massive stones above them, the soldiers stood in awe, many of them in tears. Spontaneously they began reciting the ancient Hebrew prayer of the Shehechianu:

Baruch Atah Adonai, Elohenu Melech Ha Olam Shehechianu, V’Kiemanu, V’Higianu Lazman Hazeh.
(Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who has sustained us, who preserved our lives, and who has enabled us to reach this day.)

They were then joined by Rabbi Shlomo Goren, who sounded the shofar at the Western Wall to proclaim its liberation. Goren spoke to the soldiers gathered at the wall:

“The vision of all generations is being realized before our eyes: The city of God, the site of the Temple, the Temple Mount and the Western Wall, the symbol of the nation’s redemption, have been redeemed. … “

The moment is epic. For the first time in two thousand years, for the first time since the calamity of AD 70, Jerusalem is in Jewish hands; the Holy City is restored to the Jewish people and the Jewish people to the Holy City. The moment is prophetic, a keystone in biblical end-time prophecy. – Jonathan Cahn

Awesome!
Nell

[OBW]

And we have finally come to it. Jonathan Cahn.

The 1967 war was 55 years ago. Don't the prophetic numbers start to run out long before that?

This man is one of the biggest distractions to Christians, especially in the US where we are so enamored with dispensational theology and have often presumed to lay claim to the Old Testament promises to Israel.

Could say more, but won't.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

And we have finally come to it. Jonathan Cahn.

The 1967 war was 55 years ago. Don't the prophetic numbers start to run out long before that?

This man is one of the biggest distractions to Christians, especially in the US where we are so enamored with dispensational theology and have often presumed to lay claim to the Old Testament promises to Israel.

Could say more, but won't.

Thought you said Trump was the biggest distraction to Christians?

Don’t you think Christians should pay attention to Israel and the prophecies concerning them?

[Nell]

Jeremiah 33:14-18 14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Accordingly, several prophecies describe specific end-time events that will occur in the Temple in Jerusalem, events that cannot take place if there is no Temple in Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:27, 12:11, and Matthew 24:15, all describe such events, specifically, Temple sacrifices will be reinstituted in Israel in the last days. How can this happen if there is no Temple?

I have heard for years that the Temple is already been pre-fabricated, somewhere, and could be assembled with these already constructed parts in a matter of months.

The Location of the Temple Mount
On November 29, 2017 this was posted: https://yrm.org/lost-temple-mount-found-pt1/

Lost Temple Mount FOUND? Pt. 1
Posted on November 29, 2017 by YRM which puts forth this theory:

“Many assume today that the Temple Mount within the old city of Jerusalem is where the Jewish or Old Testament temple originally stood. However, what if this was not the case? What if the temple were located elsewhere?”

“There is a theory that is gaining popularity that places the temple not on the traditional Temple Mount, but instead within the city of David.”
https://yrm.org/lost-temple-mount-found-pt1/

If this theory pans out, it would be a game changer for the rebuilding of the temple. The mosque at the current site would be irrelevant. There would need to be proof-beyond-a-doubt that this was the case.

Regardless, the Temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt for "these things" to take place.


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 11:1-2 1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

[Nell]

Prophecy NOT yet fulfilled
All the promised land is not yet returned to the Nation of Israel.
The Jews have not spiritually accepted Christ.

Ezekiel 36:24, 26-28
Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

* While much of the land has been constituted as the Nation of Israel since 1948, not all. Does that matter? Is part of the land enough?

* The Nation of Israel is largely occupied by secular Jews.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

* The Nation of Israel is largely occupied by secular Jews.

This observation is one that I have thought of, as well.

I only know what I hear in the media, but my impression is that Israel is like the US. They are mostly secular nations populated with God-fearing folk as a minority.

Does either nation in their current state deserve "preservation"?

perhaps the "end times" are not so close after all, unless the US is the Beast.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

This observation is one that I have thought of, as well.

I only know what I hear in the media, but my impression is that Israel is like the US. They are mostly secular nations populated with God-fearing folk as a minority.

Does either nation in their current state deserve "preservation"?

perhaps the "end times" are not so close after all, unless the US is the Beast.

Thanks, Timothiest,

Me too. I only know what I found in my research. But, if the Jewish population of Israel, and around the world, had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, or come anywhere close to fulling Ezekiel 36:24, 26-28, "Things" would be different.

I also think many American churches today can be described as "secular Christianity." But again, I only know what I see on TV.

Does Israel or the US deserve preservation? Not in their present condition. It's a good thing we haven't yet gotten what we deserve... none could stand.

I think we can look back to the time after God created man, man sinned, and was driven from the garden. Soon, things had badly deteriorated:

Genesis 6:5-8 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

It appears that we're back to the former state of the great wickedness of man...globally.

There are so many beasts! Hard to keep them all straight!

Witness Lee said, in the Revelation training--20-25 years ago, that the U.S., based on its religious freedom, is the Revelation 12 wilderness, a place to receive and protect the woman who was carried away on the wings of an eagle (American Eagle?) for protection, after she gave birth to the manchild.

That speculation may have had some merit, back then, but today, IMHO, not so much. I wonder if Lee were alive today, would his perspective change?

Today, we can only live a life that would find grace in the eyes of the Lord, and keep our eyes open and heads up. Read the book.

[Timotheist]

Following up on that point a bit.

If Israel really had a fervent goal to reclaim the temple, I would think they would have done it by now. Their enemies have a faith- driven zeal that Israel seems to be lacking.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Following up on that point a bit.

If Israel really had a fervent goal to reclaim the temple, I would think they would have done it by now. Their enemies have a faith- driven zeal that Israel seems to be lacking.

The first thing that must happen before the temple is built, The Temple Mount must be cleared of the existing Islamic mosque. Jerusalem is considered an International City, according to Israel’s 1948 UN charter, not belonging to Israel. Destroying that mosque would likely bring, not only every Islamic nation, but some member nations of the UN, to attack Israel and wipe her off the face of the earth.

The UN has a historic bias against Israel.

So I think Israel has a fervent goal to build the temple, but at this point, the obstacles are too great.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Witness Lee said, in the Revelation training--20-25 years ago, that the U.S., based on its religious freedom, is the Revelation 12 wilderness, a place to receive and protect the woman who was carried away on the wings of an eagle (American Eagle?) for protection, after she gave birth to the manchild.

That speculation may have had some merit, back then, but today, IMHO, not so much. I wonder if Lee were alive today, would his perspective

Nell, that speculation is based on Rev 12.13

[Nell]

EUROPE
It would be impossible to understand bible prophecy without recognizing its prophetic passages.

Daniel was a prophet. He is cited prominently by bible scholars because of, among other things, the passage in his book in Chapter 2 when he approached Nebuchadnezzar.

Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
Daniel described to the king, from his dream, four successive empires which would rule over Israel in the days to come which are confirmed, in hinsight, by history for accuracy. Daniel’s credentials as a prophet are intact.

First Kingdom:
Head of gold—Nebuchadnezzer, king of Babylon.

Second Kingdom:
another kingdom inferior to thee—Medo Persian empire which conquered Babylon in 539 BC and remained in power approximately 200 years.

Third Kingdom:
another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth—this, historically, is the Greek empire under Philip of Macedon, and his son, Alexander the Great.

Fourth Kingdom:
Historians tell us that Rome was the successor to the Greek Empire, and note that the strength of the Roman empire was often referenced by expressions like: Rome’s iron rule, Rome’s iron fist, Rome’s iron legions. (v. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things: and as iron that breaks all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.)

Fifth Kingdom: Daniel 2:44
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, (the Fifth Kingdom) which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Next, Daniel had a dream.

Daniel’s Dream
Much of what happened in Daniel’s dream had already happened, but not all:
1. Historically, three of the four kingdoms have already come and gone.
2. The fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire has made an appearance in history.

Verses 24-27 of Daniel 7 refer to what “shall be”, implying things that have not yet happened. Further implied is the reemergence, in some form, of the Roman Empire before the second coming of Christ.

The Rebirth of the Roman Empire
As a European “empire” occupying the same geographic territory as the previous Roman Empire:
• 1930—Aristide Briand, France, attempted to enlist 26 nations in what he eventually called the “European Union”.
• 1946—Winston Churchill: “We must build a United States of Europe.”
• 1951—Treaty of Paris, signed by Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, later, West Germany, France, and Italy.
• 1957—Treaty of Rome, same signatories as the Treaty of Paris, creating the “European Economic Community” known as the Common Market.
• 1973—The UK, Ireland and Denmark join the EEC.
• 1974—Greece joins the EEC.
• 1986—Spain and Portugal join the EEC.
• 1987—the “Single European Act” was implemented.
• 1989—Germany was reunified and East Germany was rolled into the EEC.
• 1993—the economic borders among the EEC member nations removed.
• 1995—Austria, Finland and Sweden join the EEC
• 2002—the monetary Euro is born.
• 2004-2007—smaller nations join the EEC “Eurozone”: Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Croatia.
• 2016—in the “brexit”, the UK withdraws from the European Union.

Europe is more unified today than at any time since the days of the ancient Roman Empire, including occupying the same geographic territory.

However, “While the EU has great economic clout, the cultures and languages of its countries are so diverse that it cannot hold together, any more than iron and clay unless its unity is enforced by an extremely powerful leader.” The Book of Signs, Dr. David Jeremiah, p. 26
***

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

However, “While the EU has great economic clout, the cultures and languages of its countries are so diverse that it cannot hold together, any more than iron and clay unless its unity is enforced by an extremely powerful leader.”

Economics alone cannot hold the EU together, but a dangerous enemy, like Magog, threatening them, could. If the “protector” of the EU in the White House were no longer available, then another great leader from within the EU would be needed.

The end of Daniel 9 is incredibly fascinating. The “Prince” will destroy the city and the sanctuary. That happened under Vespasian in AD70. Then this Prince will confirm a covenant with those he “just”destroyed for a week of 7 years. Then this Prince will put an end to sacrifices and desolate the Temple.

Each of the 4 empires have had serious impact on the Temple in Jerusalem.

The first destroyed the Temple
The second promoted the rebuilding of the Temple
The third caused the desolation of the Temple
The fourth firstly enhanced the Temple surrounds before tearing it down, then later allowed for the rebuilding of the Temple before desolating the Temple.

There’s a pattern here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Economics alone cannot hold the EU together, but a dangerous enemy, like Magog, threatening them, could. If the “protector” of the EU in the White House were no longer available, then another great leader from within the EU would be needed.

The end of Daniel 9 is incredibly fascinating. The “Prince” will destroy the city and the sanctuary. That happened under Vespasian in AD70. Then this Prince will confirm a covenant with those he “just”destroyed for a week of 7 years. Then this Prince will put an end to sacrifices and desolate the Temple.

Each of the 4 empires have had serious impact on the Temple in Jerusalem.

The first destroyed the Temple
The second promoted the rebuilding of the Temple
The third caused the desolation of the Temple
The fourth firstly enhanced the Temple surrounds before tearing it down, then later allowed for the rebuilding of the Temple before desolating the Temple.

There’s a pattern here.

And there's this:

Fifth Kingdom?: Daniel 2:44
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, (the Fifth Kingdom) which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

And there's this:

Fifth Kingdom?: Daniel 2:44
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, (the Fifth Kingdom) which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Nell

The long promised Messiah, the slain Lamb of God, the Man Christ Jesus, the King of kings, long rejected by Israel, but welcomed by her faithful believing remnant, sitting on the restored throne of David after conquering all of Israel's enemies. For further details, see Rev. 19.11-21.

[HERn]

Not sure if this post is allowed on this thread? If not, admins please remove. But, in my research concerning the pre-tribulation rapture of the church I discovered that Corrie ten Boom, one of my heroines of the faith did not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. She made some pretty strong statements against that teaching.

[UntoHim]

Hey Mr. Z,

Why don't you just take a break from this thread for a while. Find something else that interests you and put your time and energy into that.

Thanks!
Your brother who is unto Him.
-

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey Mr. Z,

Why don't you just take a break from this thread for a while. Find something else that interests you and put your time and energy into that.

Thanks!
Your brother who is unto Him.
-

Will do! Thanks

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by HERn

Not sure if this post is allowed on this thread? If not, admins please remove. But, in my research concerning the pre-tribulation rapture of the church I discovered that Corrie ten Boom, one of my heroines of the faith did not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. She made some pretty strong statements against that teaching.

In short, I agree with you and your source, and I will leave it at that.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

Not sure if this post is allowed on this thread? If not, admins please remove. But, in my research concerning the pre-tribulation rapture of the church I discovered that Corrie ten Boom, one of my heroines of the faith did not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. She made some pretty strong statements against that teaching.

Originally Posted by Timotheist

In short, I agree with you and your source, and I will leave it at that.

Make your case, guys. I'd like to hear both sides. There will be a rapture of the believers. "When" has long been the question.

I heard a quip from a strong anti "post trib" preacher who declared he wouldn't allow his children to eat "Post Toastiest" cereal.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Make your case, guys. I'd like to hear both sides. There will be a rapture of the believers. "When" has long been the question.

I heard a quip from a strong anti "post trib" preacher who declared he wouldn't allow his children to eat "Post Tosties" cereal.

Nell

I had a thread devoted to this topic. Unfortunately it was in the old "alternative views" area.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Make your case, guys. I'd like to hear both sides.

Right. Wouldn't it be good to just have honest, polite discussion about these events, based only on scripture, so that we all can learn? Like a home Bible study, where "each one has"?

[Timotheist]

OK I will bite:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

So the topic of the following verses is Paul's explanation about those who die before the second coming.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th*4:13-18*NAU)

These verses are about as clear as it gets. The resurrection will happen first, then the rapture. If Paul believed in two raptures, one pre-trib and another one later, he would not have been able to make these statements. He would have had to say something like "some of you will be with the Lord before the resurrection", and the whole argument would have been meaningless. We are to comfort each other when someone dies... they will get to see the Lord before the living.

The pre-trib rapture theory apparently originated with Darby and the Plymouth Brethren (they called it the "secret rapture"). I have not been able to find any references that pre-date Darby.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

OK I will bite:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

So the topic of the following verses is Paul's explanation about those who die before the second coming.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th*4:13-18*NAU)

These verses are about as clear as it gets. The resurrection will happen first, then the rapture. If Paul believed in two raptures, one pre-trib and another one later, he would not have been able to make these statements. He would have had to say something like "some of you will be with the Lord before the resurrection", and the whole argument would have been meaningless. We are to comfort each other when someone dies... they will get to see the Lord before the living.

Can you explain how His coming "as a thief in the night" (I Ths 5.2) can correspond "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God?" They just don't seem to be the same.

The verses above do not preclude a prior secretive rapture, otherwise why would Paul say "those of us who are alive and remain?"

[Timotheist]

A more credible response to me would be “maybe Paul did not know about the secret rapture”. Since the concept was not in anybody’s mind until the 1800’s, that would make sense to me.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you explain how His coming "as a thief in the night" (I Ths 5.2) can correspond "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God?" They just don't seem to be the same.

Here is the entire passage:

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Th*5:1-9*NAU)

I cannot read this passage in its entirety and conclude it is pointing to anything other than the second coming. To the ones who are in figurative darkness His coming will be like a thief. To the ones in the light, it will be during the "day".

The idea that the "thief" is coming to steal believers simply does not hold up to scrutiny in this context. The thief is not coming to believers, but rather to unbelievers, and they will be taken by surprise and destroyed. And there is nothing "secret" about it: the day will be noticed.

Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

3.10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and elements will be dissolved, burning with heat, and the earth and the works in it will not be found.
11. All these things being dissolved in this way, what kind ought you to be? In holy conduct and godliness,
12. Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens will be dissolved, being set on fire, and the elements are melting, burning with heat.
13. But according to His promise, we are awaiting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Lots will happen on that one “day.”

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

OK then, you say you want a discussion but you keep moving the target. How about we stay in Thessalonians some more and you defend your position?

If this is a true discussion, then I get to ask questions, too.

To answer your point: the "day of the Lord" begins with His coming, and ends 1000 years later. The tribulation occurs before that day. So the day does not last 1003.5 years or 1007. That's how I see it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

Sorry, not sure how that happened.

[Timotheist]

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

[Nell]

Where do these verses fit?

Revelation 14:1-5
The Lamb and the 144,000
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


Revelation 7:1-4
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From Witness Lee: "In principle, God's Harvest will (also) be gathered in 3 stages".

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...IRSTFRUIT.HTML

Nell

[Timotheist]

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

OK I will try my best. Of course we all understand that Lee drew a lot of his doctrines from the Plymouth brethren, and went from there. So he was biased to believe in a pre-trib rapture of "overcomers".

1) I place the vision in Rev 14 as occurring between the second coming and the 7 bowls of God's wrath. Yes, the 144000 are described as "firstfruits", but what Lee calls the "harvest" at the end of the chapter describes the wrathful judgement of those who remain on the earth after the second coming. I cannot read these verses as describing a general harvest of believers apart from the firstfruits. Lee sees the fact that the 144000 are described as being in heaven is evidence of a pre-trib rapture. I obviously differ with him on this point.

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

I will also try to elaborate the 144,000 in a future post

[Timotheist]

Rev 7 calls out two groups of saved people:

1) The 144,000, who are sealed at the onset of the Tribulation
2) A very large number of folk who are killed during the Tribulation

The first group are called out as "Israelites", the second are from "every nation".

The first group are mentioned again in ch. 14, and are described in this way:

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The second group are described this way in ch. 7:

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

So what is the difference? To summarize, the 144,000, the firstfruits, are "blameless" and represent the future Bride. The second group are described as servants, and represent the future "royal priesthood".

My take on the description of the New Earth is that the Bride and the royal priesthood are distinct entities. One is 'holy', the other is 'holier'. The Bride will be joined to the Lamb and sit on the throne, the servants will serve the throne and rule over the nations.

This was Paul's hope for the Thessalonians:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are blameless do not deserve death, and even their bodies are considered "holy".

The vast majority of us are not thoroughly sanctified, and will be given "holy bodies" at the resurrection, and our souls will be judged. The servants in Rev 7. were not holy enough to escape death of the body, but the Bride is truly holy, in both body and soul.

A question that I still have today is this: "Is the Bride made up of only these 144,000, or will others be added to her number?"

Lee's teaching concerning the Bride is that all of us will eventually be added to her number, and he blurs the distinction between the Bride and the king-priests. This all sounds good, but I don't think this will be the case.

==============================

Sorry, Nell, I see that we posted at the same time again!

(fixed...Nell (:-) )

[Nell]

RUSSIA, MAGOG?
Ezekiel 38:1-3 NKJV
38 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, [a]the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

Who is Gog? Gog is believed to be a title for a person, like the “president” of the land of Magog.

https://truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezeki...iel-38-Gog.htm

https://www.endtime-insights.org/202...ssia-rosh.html

https://midseventiethweekrapture.blo...is-russia.html

Ezekiel 38:1-3 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

There is significant question as to the word “Rosh”. Can it legitimately be interpreted as “Russia”? I don’t know, but my question is “If not Russia, who?” So far, I haven’t found an answer. Those who believe Rosh is not Russian offer no answers either.

Ezekiel 5:5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

From Ezekiel 5:5 and Ezekiel 38-39 we see that this geographical position in a prophetic context places Jerusalem in the center. The prophet Daniel described the ruler who would lead an attack against Israel in the latter days as the “king of the north”. Dan. 11:5-35 Ezekiel’s prophecy says the invading armies will come to Israel “from the far north” Ezek. 38:6, 15.

Only one country occupies a geographical position in the “far north” in relation to Israel. Russia. The Russian landmass stretches from the Baltic to the Bering Sea.

This seems to be better evidence than the etymology of the word “Rosh”.

Who and where is Gog/Magog?
Who is Gog…the leader of the united countries that will invade Israel? What countries will invade Israel? Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Libia, Gomer, Togamarh. In the present day, Russia and Turkey will lead the coalition, from the North, they will be joined by Iran from the east, Sudan and Libia from the south, and possibly Germany from the west. These nations represent a revived European coalition.

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Why will Russia and its allies attack Israel?
1. To seize Israel’s land (Eze. 38:11-12)
2. Steal Israel’s wealth (Eze. 38:12-13)
3. To slaughter Israel’s people. (Eze. 38:16)
4. To set the stage for God’s punishment of Russia and her allies for their history of rebellion against Him.

When will the invasion occur?
Three things must happen first. Two have already taken place.
1. Israel must exist in its own land. This happened in 1948.
2. Israel must be prosperous in its land. This has happened. The prosperity of Israel today is beyond question.
3. Peace in Israel. After the seven-year peace treaty with antichrist. Peace has never achieved in Israel’s existence as a Nation. Not even close. So today, the Russian invasion is nowhere near imminent. But, it will come.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Defeat of Magog by God Himself
Ezekiel 38:15-16 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

When all hope for the survival of Israel is gone:
Eze. 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
 
Great shaking in the land of Israel
1. Earthquakes (Eze. 38:19-20) 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
2. Military confusion; v. 21 (2 Chron. 20:22-25) 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
3. Disease Epidemic: Eze. 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
4. Calamities: Ezekiel 39:1-6 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: 3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. 4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. 6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

This massive destruction leaves a grisly scene in Israel. God sends in ravenous birds to clean up the mess.

Zechariah 12:9-11
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zechariah 14:2
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

[Nell]

Very interesting John Ankerberg interview with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung. There are several interviews.

https://jashow.org/prophecy/

Nell

You may recall, or not, that John Ankerberg co-authored "Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions" published by Harvest House, and included a chapter on Witness Lee and the Local Church. Of course, they filed a lawsuit against Harvest House, Ankerberg and Weldon. The LC lost its case on appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court, which refused to hear the appeal.

Here are the details from Harvest House if you're interested

[Nell]

AMERICA
Of course, there is no mention of the United States of America, by name, in the Bible. Yet surely God has blessed America as America has blessed the Nation of Israel. Two examples: beginning in 1948 as soon as the National Declaration of Independence was declared, a US President, Harry S. Truman, recognized Israel as the authority of the Jewish State. In 2019, another US President, moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem, recognizing the “true capitol” of Israel.

The Nation of Israel, May 14, 1948
The Nation of Israel Declaration of Independence
“…this right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations in their own Sovereign State.

Accordingly…we are here assembled…and by virtue of our natural and historic right, and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment a Jewish State in Ezret-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.” David Ben-Gurion, Jewish leader.

U.S. Recognition of the State of Israel
At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed a new State of Israel. On that same date, the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as the de facto authority of the Jewish state.

US opens embassy in Jerusalem,
recognizing city as ‘true capital’ of Israel
By Brooke Singman , Judson Berger , | Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-opens-embas`sy-in-jerusalem-recognizing-city-as-true-capital-of-israel
…
The Trump administration officially opened the new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem on Monday, in a historic move cheered by Israelis but met with mass protests from Palestinians that turned deadly in the lead-up to the ceremony.
…
In moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to the holy city -- a relocation long debated in Washington -- Trump said America was simply recognizing reality.

"For many years, we have failed to acknowledge the obvious, plain reality that the [Israeli] capital is Jerusalem. At my direction, the United States finally and officially recognized Jerusalem as the true capital of Israel," Trump said.

“The United States will always be a great friend of Israel and a partner in the cause of peace,” Trump said in his video address. “We extend a hand in friendship to Israel, the Palestinians and to all of their neighbors. May there be peace.”

In his Life Study of Revelation,
Message 37, God’s Preservation of the Woman, Witness Lee says this:

“Some may wonder what the wilderness is. I cannot answer this question definitely, but I do have my own realization of what it might be. Although I do not wish to interpret this verse, I am willing to share with you my realization of what the wilderness is. Since its beginning, the United States has been a land to which people who desire a free conscience toward God might escape. We are all familiar with the story of the Mayflower. The pilgrims fled from persecution and escaped to this country. For more than three hundred years, America has been used by God as a refuge for His escapees. The symbol of this country is an eagle. When the persecution comes, many of God’s people may escape to the United States by airplane. Hallelujah, there will be a wilderness on earth for God’s escapees! Even today, the United States is still a refuge for escapees.”

In these messages 36-37, interspersed, is an almost shameless promotion of his own preconceived notion of the importance of his own “ministry” in the end times.

Would Lee have the same take on America today?

There are too many instances of God’s blessing on America, from its conception to today. There are also a terribly large number of American people who have fallen away from its rich Christian heritage. None of these are specifically related to this discussion of historic prophecies related to America. There are certainly prophecies that will be discussed later which are more related to Christians in general, but not American Christians specifically.

[Nell]

In summary, the Tribulation is the 7-year time period in the end times in which humanity’s decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly. Many Christian scholars have the understanding of Daniel’s 70 sevens, with 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel’s people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights (lowlights?) of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.' In the middle of the ’seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice.

Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years.

Revelation 13 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.

Daniel 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

[Timotheist]

So are you suggesting a timeline that goes something like this?

Trumpets (tribulation), Resurrection, Bowls, Rapture

whereas I currently think of the timeline in this way:

Trumpets, Resurrection, Rapture, Bowls

I have not considered the former, but it does provide an alternative that might hold up.

People in my camp are called "Pre-Wrathers" as opposed to "Pre-Tribbers".

Not discounting your third option at all (if that is indeed what you meant to say)... and Rev 16:15 certainly brings up a decent question.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

So are you suggesting a timeline that goes something like this?

Trumpets (tribulation), Resurrection, Bowls, Rapture

whereas I currently think of the timeline in this way:

Trumpets, Resurrection, Rapture, Bowls

I have not considered the former, but it does provide an alternative that might hold up.

People in my camp are called "Pre-Wrathers" as opposed to "Pre-Tribbers".

Not discounting your third option at all (if that is indeed what you meant to say)... and Rev 16:15 certainly brings up a decent question.

Uh...I'm basically just asking a question. I was raised a pre-tribber. Now I'm not so sure...just exploring all possibilites. I like the picture of God's protection of his people ... in all ages.

I'm also considering the question of "does it matter" what I believe when I'm admonished on every turn to "be ready", i.e. being ready is more important than being "right".

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Uh...I'm basically just asking a question. I was raised a pre-tribber. Now I'm not so sure...just exploring all possibilites. I like the picture of God's protection of his people ... in all ages.

I'm also considering the question of "does it matter" what I believe when I'm admonished on every turn to "be ready", i.e. being ready is more important than being "right".

Nell

Amen to that... my only pushback would be that we should not rely on the "happy path" too much, if that is being used as an excuse (unconsciously of course) to remain lukewarm.

A healthy fear of the Lord is also a good thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

Nell, Rev 14.9-10 (Warning) and 16.2 (1st Bowl) indicate plainly that those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast (whether Christians or not) will suffer the wrath of God. This implies that those who reject the mark and refuse to worship the Beast will be protected by God and spared from some of His judgment.

Personally, I believe pre-, mid-, and post-trib themes all have value, but who says that God has one common plan for all of His children? Perhaps all three are correct. Using the metaphor of a ripening harvest, perhaps each will be taken as they mature, some earlier and some later. according to their needs. I think most of the rapture time debates spring from the requirement that all God's children have a similar destiny.

Following this thought, I can't believe that all Christians will reject the mark of the Beast. I have never seen all Christians adhere to anything in total uniformity. Those who accept the mark may be part of the "falling away" apostasy which Paul predicted in 2 Ths 2.3. They may even side with the Beast for temporary gains. (Didn't Nee attempt something similar with the CCP?) I also think it's foolish to write them all off as false or tares, though some may be.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, Rev 14.9-10 (Warning) and 16.2 (1st Bowl) indicate plainly that those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast (whether Christians or not) will suffer the wrath of God. This implies that those who reject the mark and refuse to worship the Beast will be protected by God and spared from some of His judgment.

Personally, I believe pre-, mid-, and post-trib themes all have value, but who says that God has one common plan for all of His children? Perhaps all three are correct. Using the metaphor of a ripening harvest, perhaps each will be taken as they mature, some earlier and some later. according to their needs. I think most of the rapture time debates spring from the requirement that all God's children have a similar destiny.

Following this thought, I can't believe that all Christians will reject the mark of the Beast. I have never seen all Christians adhere to anything in total uniformity. Those who accept the mark may be part of the "falling away" apostasy which Paul predicted in 2 Ths 2.3. They may even side with the Beast for temporary gains. (Didn't Nee attempt something similar with the CCP?) I also think it's foolish to write them all off as false or tares, though some may be.

Thanks Ohio,
Good points to talk to the Lord about, huh?

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Amen to that... my only pushback would be that we should not rely on the "happy path" too much, if that is being used as an excuse (unconsciously of course) to remain lukewarm.

A healthy fear of the Lord is also a good thing.

My pushback to your pushback: I trust you don't really think that's what I meant. There are plenty of verses to "be ready", watch and pray, look up, be not deceived, and other such warnings. Does anyone really take these warnings seriously enough? This is my context for "be ready".

Some Christian scholars speak and write on many topics with "authority" they do not possess. Witness Lee, for example. Does it really matter about the interpretations of men if you are personally not on the lookout, if you're not reading the words for yourself, if you're not asking the Lord for guidance and understanding but simply believe what someone else says? (Lord? What does THAT mean?)

This is what I hope to accomplish with this topic. That readers would "wake up", look around at the world today, and begin to go to the only one who knows what's really going on. A good question to start with would be "Uh...Lord? Is something going on that I should know about?"

Another warning: Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Wow. This sounds serious.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

My pushback to your pushback: I trust you don't really think that's what I meant.

oops. my bad. I reread your post and it registered differently this time.

pull back on my push back.

Oh, and whoever decided to "feature" one of my posts on the front page recently, I give my thanks. Although I do not deserve that kind of recognition

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

oops. my bad. I reread your post and it registered differently this time.

pull back on my push back.

Oh, and whoever decided to "feature" one of my posts on the front page recently, I give my thanks. Although I do not deserve that kind of recognition

Thanks for your pullback. I’ll pull back on my pushback on your pushback. Online communication gets to be interesting, huh?

Thank UntoHim. He’s the forum big Kahuna.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Ohio,
Good points to talk to the Lord about, huh?

Nell

you mean like pullback or pushback?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

you mean like pullback or pushback?

Or both.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Oh, and whoever decided to "feature" one of my posts on the front page recently, I give my thanks. Although I do not deserve that kind of recognition

Well, every once in while I like to give recognition to a beautiful nut, and to the blind squirrel that found it.

Seriously though, I'm so proud of some of the great things that our forum members post, and sometimes I want to make sure lurkers and passerbys don't miss it.

Originally Posted by Nell

Thank UntoHim. He’s the forum big Kahuna.

Ah...so that's how you spell "Kahuna"!...Thanks Nell. I usually have to find out the proper context and spelling of big words from aron! And while I've got your attention, thank you so much for being the assistant Kahuna! (or would it be Kahuness?-)
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Well, every once in while I like to give recognition to a beautiful nut, and to the blind squirrel that found it.

Seriously though, I'm so proud of some of the great things that our forum members post, and sometimes I want to make sure lurkers and passerbys don't miss it.


Ah...so that's how you spell "Kahuna"!...Thanks Nell. I usually have to find out the proper context and spelling of big words from aron! And while I've got your attention, thank you so much for being the assistant Kahuna! (or would it be Kahuness?-)
-

Yes…that’s correct. I Googled it. Assistant is fine.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Well, every once in while I like to give recognition to a beautiful nut, and to the blind squirrel that found it.

Yeah but … Is that beautiful nut one of my missing Buckeyes?

[Nell]

ANTICHRIST
Who is he? Unknown. If you Google "who is Antichrist?" you will definitely get some "ideas", even a few names. In years past, some actually gave a specific date for the 2nd Coming. These dates could obviously be called "dates the 2nd coming" will NOT happen. We could also look at these names as "who the Antichrist ISN"T", IMHO.

Scriptural Aliases for Antichrist:
What does the Bible say about the kind of guy we might look for?

Daniel 8:23 A fierce king, Master of intrigue
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Daniel 9:26 A “prince” who is to come after “threescore and two weeks”.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 11:21 A vile man
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Zach. 11:16-17 An idol shepherd who abandons the flock.
16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

2 Thess. 2:3 One who brings destruction
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thess. 2:8 The lawless one
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: [f]only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord [g]Jesus shall [h]slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his [i]coming; 9 even he, whose [j]coming is according to the working of Satan with all [k]power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev. 13:1 the “beast”
and [a]he stood upon the sand of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as though it had been [b]smitten unto death; and his death-stroke was healed: and the whole earth wondered after the beast;

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thought you said Trump was the biggest distraction to Christians?

Don’t you think Christians should pay attention to Israel and the prophecies concerning them?

Trump may be among the biggest distractions, however I said it. But my comment re: Cahn was not that he was the biggest, but among the biggest. Pay a little attention and you won't look like a fool in your replies.

As for paying attention to Israel and the prophecies concerning them, is the purpose to find prophecies to transfer from Israel to the US, or to find a reason to cease living in this world and simply look away to the future? Or is it as a reminder that we know not when the next life may come for us. Whether by natural death, immediate catastrophe, or the Second Coming.

I would note that when Jesus made mention of prophecies, it was generally to the teachers of the law, not the multitudes that he came to save. He expected them to understand the prophecies. He doesn't appear to have intended the multitudes to be concerned with it.

Why do we spend so much energy on the prophecies concerning Israel? To recongnize them is sufficient. They are there as signposts along the path of this life. But they are not signposts to turn from this life to pining for the next, but rather reminders that we have been left here with a charge that is our path to that next life. And that charge is not about the prophecies. Instead, the prophecies are reminders, as I mentioned earlier. Like recognizing the signs of the times. The important thing is that we "be about our Father's business." And that business is not about chasing prophecies, but about obedience to the commands.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

...
I would note that when Jesus made mention of prophecies, it was generally to the teachers of the law, not the multitudes that he came to save. He expected them to understand the prophecies. He doesn't appear to have intended the multitudes to be concerned with it.
...
Why do we spend so much energy on the prophecies concerning Israel? To recongnize them is sufficient. They are there as signposts along the path of this life. But they are not signposts to turn from this life to pining for the next, but rather reminders that we have been left here with a charge that is our path to that next life. And that charge is not about the prophecies. Instead, the prophecies are reminders, as I mentioned earlier. Like recognizing the signs of the times. The important thing is that we "be about our Father's business." And that business is not about chasing prophecies, but about obedience to the commands.

OBW,

Since this is a forum for discussion, we are free to choose topics of interest. If you choose to join the prophecies discussion, you're welcome to participate. If not, you're welcome to not participate as well. Your choice.

Here's my favorite verse on the prophecies:

Revelation 1:3 ASV
3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

So we are encouraged to discuss the prophecies by the Lord Jesus himself...for the time is at hand.

This is why we are spending our time and energy in this discussion.

Nell

[OBW]

. . . for the time is at hand

As it has been for almost 2,000 years. I do not mean that as a dismissive statement. Rather, it seems to me that for it to have meaning, it must be more than just a declaration that we can read the signs and realize when that time actually is. Instead, it seems more like a statement that no matter when you are reading it, the time is at hand. The horsemen will be busily out doing their thing. Our time is always at hand, whether by natural death in some number of years, by various calamities sooner, or at the Second Coming if it is sooner. No matter which, for us, it is effectively "at hand." Even if we still have 50 years (from the perspective of a 20-to-40-year-old).

I see the signs, the pictures, in Revelation as reasons to be about the business of the Kingdom that is charged to me, not to stopping to read the tea leaves to determine whether I do or do not have more time.

As for prophecies about Israel, there surely are some that are unfulfilled. But I am a little uncertain how figuring them out will move them along. As for reading back to the statement that "they will prosper that love thee," there is a serious argument that this related to the theocracy that existed during the time of the OT and not necessarily applied to the present democracy that is today's Israel. In any case, we are so certain that the fact that Israel exists almost miraculously since 1948 (ish?) but feel the need to help it along afterward. So God is not necessarily in charge? The signs are supposedly pointing to His timeline, not ours. Just like He doesn't need Nee and Lee to bring in the Kingdom, neither does he need us to understand how He will work it out whenever it is to actually be worked out.

I mentioned the time between the '67 war and today because the whole idea of a generation (kind of important to literalists reading prophecy) is kind of messed up. Forget that the recreation of Israel goes back another 20 years.

The number of somewhat significant Protestant sects that arose when a declaration concerning the date of the return of Jesus failed to come to pass (and persisted afterward) is somewhat humbling. We have a propensity to be ready to forsake everything to run to the top of a hill wearing clean white robes rather than accept that even the erroneous thought on the subject should only drive us to more diligently do what we are charged to do.

And it really isn't to contemplate the meaning of prophecy.

My thoughts, like so many things that we have had to say about the teachings of Nee, Lee, and the LRC, arise from a desire to at least question whether we are reading everything in the best way. And since the deep chasing of prophecy is mostly an exercise of the last 200 or so years, I think it is at least worthwhile to question whether what we are reading. And maybe why.

You are free to limit the discussion of this topic to the positive consideration of more of the same. That's fine. I probably won't be around again soon enough to see your response. It is a shame that open discussion seems unwanted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

ANTICHRIST
2 Thess. 2:3 One who brings destruction
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thess. 2:8 The lawless one
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: [f]only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord [g]Jesus shall [h]slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his [i]coming; 9 even he, whose [j]coming is according to the working of Satan with all [k]power and signs and lying wonders,

Nell

The following verses (vv. 10-12) have been even more striking to me. V.9 says, "The coming of whom ..." referring to this "lawless one."

These last few years have displayed such a growing "delusion, the operation of error, (v.11) sent by God Himself to those who rejected the love of truth, that they all would believe the lie."

This partly explains the great apostasy. Not just in the church, but all mankind rejecting what is true, what is truth. People are even losing the ability to find and know what is true.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The following verses (vv. 10-12) have been even more striking to me. V.9 says, "The coming of whom ..." referring to this "lawless one."

These last few years have displayed such a growing "delusion, the operation of error, (v.11) sent by God Himself to those who rejected the love of truth, that they all would believe the lie."

This partly explains the great apostasy. Not just in the church, but all mankind rejecting what is true, what is truth. People are even losing the ability to find and know what is true.

Ohio,

What exactly was rejected? Paul addresses this:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The truth is clearly seen and understood. Today we see everywhere the consequences of rejecting what is clearly seen and understood. Judgment comes with a strong delusion..

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

What exactly was rejected? Paul addresses this:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The truth is clearly seen and understood. Today we see everywhere the consequences of rejecting what is clearly seen and understood. Judgment comes with a strong delusion..

Nell

Yes, and this delusion affects both the Christian and not.

"The god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving." - 2 Cor 4.4

"So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth." - 2 Ths 2.11-12

"Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction." 2 Ths. 2.3

This shows what incredible difficulties will face God's children in the final days. They will be surrounded by those who reject all semblance of truth. Basic honesty will be abandoned. Brotherly love will be a frozen relic.

Many seem to focus on what is happening in the world, but the way the world thinks must precede that.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, and this delusion affects both the Christian and not.

"The god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving." - 2 Cor 4.4

"So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth." - 2 Ths 2.11-12

"Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction." 2 Ths. 2.3

This shows what incredible difficulties will face God's children in the final days. They will be surrounded by those who reject all semblance of truth. Basic honesty will be abandoned. Brotherly love will be a frozen relic.

Many seem to focus on what is happening in the world, but the way the world thinks must precede that.

This includes believers who resist simple acknowledgement that there is a day of reckoning coming. It's been a long time coming. As a result, believers, rather than paying attention as we are commanded to do, dismiss the end times as "you've been saying that for hundreds of years", and it hasn't happened yet. This is a delusion. Labeling the serious warnings as "fearmongering" is a delusion.

Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What were the days of Noah like?

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (there's more...)

Romans 1:20 still applies today, I think. No excuses. If you believe the Bible, you have to believe all of it and not try to explain the scary parts away. No excuses.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Nell]

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Antichrist as revealed by John: There is antichrist and the spirit of antichrist, which may be possessed by others.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Some have said that it may be a waste of time for Christians to focus on Israel or the Jews during these end times, but these verses (prophesied by Daniel, Jesus, and Paul) provide compelling evidence that neither the Antichrist Beast nor our Lord Jesus Christ will appear until the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem.

The rebuilding of the 3rd Temple will be a monumental event in the history of mankind. We may or may not know the exact timing of the covenant (9.27) which the Beast will sign with Israel, but we can most assuredly assume the temple will be finished asap afterwards. Daniel (9.25) says to "know therefore and discern" the times of these events. Had the Jewish leaders of old "known and discerned," they would have known the exact year (9.26) their anointed Messiah was "cut off, having nothing" and thus "make an end of sins and reconciliation for their iniquity." (9.24)

Unfortunately most of contemporary Israel will miss this warning also. They will wrongly assume that the Antichrist Beast is their long-awaited Messiah. When this Beast "Prince" fake-Messiah is killed in the "middle of the week," (9.27) and subsequently resurrected by the power of the Dragon, (Rev 13.1-9) initially all Israel will be overwhelmingly deceived. Suddenly, however, the great tribulation will commence, and "peace and security" will be no more.

Nell, what do you think about this Beast ruling both Europe and the USA, under the auspices of NATO, with all their nukes? How else could this ruler be the 7th Caesar of Rome, and yet intimidate China, Russia, and the entire Moslem world into subjection, long enough to make the covenant, tear down the Dome of the Rock, build their Temple, and restore the sacrifices in Jerusalem?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some have said that it may be a waste of time for Christians to focus on Israel or the Jews during these end times, but these verses (prophesied by Daniel, Jesus, and Paul) provide compelling evidence that neither the Antichrist Beast nor our Lord Jesus Christ will appear until the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem.

Yeah, "some" are entitled to speculate, but Daniel, Jesus and Paul have more credibility in my mind, too. I also don't trust anyone who comes up with some bright ideas and claim they are "right". In some places, the scripture is clear. Otherwise, we are clearly told that no one knows for sure...except the Father.

The rebuilding of the 3rd Temple will be a monumental event in the history of mankind. We may or may not know the exact timing of the covenant (9.27) which the Beast will sign with Israel, but we can most assuredly assume the temple will be finished asap afterwards. Daniel (9.25) says to "know therefore and discern" the times of these events. Had the Jewish leaders of old "known and discerned," they would have known the exact year (9.26) their anointed Messiah was "cut off, having nothing" and thus "make an end of sins and reconciliation for their iniquity." (9.24)

Unfortunately most of contemporary Israel will miss this warning also. They will wrongly assume that the Antichrist Beast is their long-awaited Messiah. When this Beast "Prince" fake-Messiah is killed in the "middle of the week," (9.27) and subsequently resurrected by the power of the Dragon, (Rev 13.1-9) initially all Israel will be overwhelmingly deceived. Suddenly, however, the great tribulation will commence, and "peace and security" will be no more.

The rebuilding of the 3rd Temple is a huge mystery to me. There are too many verses referencing what will happen in the end times, in the 3rd rebuilt Temple, specifically with Antichrist.

There is some evidence that the 3rd Temple could be rebuilt fairly quickly. It's believed it's already been prefabricated "somewhere" and with today's construction capabilities, assembling the pieces could happen quickly. The utensils for worship have been crafted too, apparently, and are ready to go.

The location of the site has always been identified as the location of the current Dome of the Rock, the site of a Muslim Mosque. Then evidence surfaced that the actual location may be in a nearby area in the City of David.

The timeline of what we see in the scripture doesn't seem to allow for a lengthy process of rebuilding the temple. So, it would be amazing if all of orthodoxy were to be convinced of a different location. When/if we see that happen, it might be time to fasten your seatbelts!

Nell, what do you think about this Beast ruling both Europe and the USA, under the auspices of NATO, with all their nukes? How else could this ruler be the 7th Caesar of Rome, and yet intimidate China, Russia, and the entire Moslem world into subjection, long enough to make the covenant, tear down the Dome of the Rock, build their Temple, and restore the sacrifices in Jerusalem?

I think Europe, the USA, and the nations of the world will all likely be deceived by the Antichrist beast and peacefully accept him as ruler. If so, this would expand the involvement of the nations of NATO and include the UN. The issue here is, I think, "new world order" or another term "globalists" which bring nations of the world together.

There are some pretty extreme websites out there describing what is about to happen as a "takeover" is, not "predicted" but promised based on current events. What's happening in Canada is extraordinary.

There's just too much happening in the world not to pay attention: watch and pray; look up; etc.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

There is some evidence that the 3rd Temple could be rebuilt fairly quickly. It's believed it's already been prefabricated "somewhere" and with today's construction capabilities, assembling the pieces could happen quickly. The utensils for worship have been crafted too, apparently, and are ready to go.

The location of the site has always been identified as the location of the current Dome of the Rock, the site of a Muslim Mosque. Then evidence surfaced that the actual location may be in a nearby area in the City of David.

The timeline of what we see in the scripture doesn't seem to allow for a lengthy process of rebuilding the temple. So, it would be amazing if all of orthodoxy were to be convinced of a different location. When/if we see that happen, it might be time to fasten your seatbelts!

Nell

There’s probably the same levels of speculation and controversy as to end time events among the Jews as among Christians. I’m thinking that the “covenant with the Prince” spoken of in Daniel perhaps will provide a suitable compromise. It was fascinating to see several Arab countries normalize relations with Israel under the last administration. I wonder if the Temple was ever discussed?

It’s interesting to see the ironies. The Temple was rebuilt the 2nd time under the endorsement of the Persian king. Today, however, the Persian “king” is forcing a security realignment between Israel and Arabs. Seeing Iran aligned with Russia/China probably will only strengthen that alliance. One strange difference between our own two political parties can be seen here. The left favors Iran while the right favors Israel/Arabs.

Daniel 9 mentions the “Prince” destroying the Temple, and yet (spaced apart by two millennia) the Prince will later facilitate its rebuilding.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There’s probably the same levels of speculation and controversy as to end time events among the Jews as among Christians. I’m thinking that the “covenant with the Prince” spoken of in Daniel perhaps will provide a suitable compromise. It was fascinating to see several Arab countries normalize relations with Israel under the last administration. I wonder if the Temple was ever discussed?

It’s interesting to see the ironies. The Temple was rebuilt the 2nd time under the endorsement of the Persian king. Today, however, the Persian “king” is forcing a security realignment between Israel and Arabs. Seeing Iran aligned with Russia/China probably will only strengthen that alliance. One strange difference between our own two political parties can be seen here. The left favors Iran while the right favors Israel/Arabs.

Daniel 9 mentions the “Prince” destroying the Temple, and yet (spaced apart by two millennia) the Prince will later facilitate its rebuilding.

1. Plans for Third Temple Have Begun

2. The Building of The Third Temple Has Begun (2019) The tone of this one is "be careful what you wish for".

3. Lost Temple Mount FOUND?

I have provided these links an example...not that I agree or disagree with the narrative.

There's a lot of interest in the rebuilding of the Temple. The interesting part to me is that, as the 2nd video points out, seemingly, one strong motivation for the rebuilding is world "peace and security". This peace and security is a man-made peace, a false flag, brought about by a New World Order, not by God. The NWO goal is not peace and security, but world dominance. The pieces are falling into place to make peace with Antichrist, just as scriptures prophesy.

Does the phrase "peace, peace, when there is no peace" apply here? I think it does.
Jeremiah 6:13-14 ASV For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Why would Israel want to make "peace" with the very Islamic extremist countries whose sworn goal is, and always has been, to wipe her off the face of the earth...denying her the very right to exist. Do these extremists suddenly change their minds, or is "peace" a ruse? The United States has been included in that curse by Islamic extremists who want to wipe the US off the face of the earth.

IMHO, when people, Christians and unbelievers alike, begin to rely on the Federal Governments of the world for "peace and security", this would highlight the great "falling away" that is to come, or is already here.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

RUSSIA, MAGOG?
Ezekiel 38:1-3 NKJV
38 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, [a]the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

Who is Gog? Gog is believed to be a title for a person, like the “president” of the land of Magog.

https://truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezeki...iel-38-Gog.htm

https://www.endtime-insights.org/202...ssia-rosh.html

https://midseventiethweekrapture.blo...is-russia.html ...

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” The Complete Jewish Bible translation is: “Human being, turn your face toward Gog (of the land of Magog), chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval, and prophesy against him.” The mistranslation is such: “Rosh,” or “Ros” in Hebrew, translated correctly is always “Chief” or “Head,” never “Russia” (i.e., Rosh Hashana, meaning “Head” of the year)." Bill Wilson, The Daily Jot

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” The Complete Jewish Bible translation is: “Human being, turn your face toward Gog (of the land of Magog), chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval, and prophesy against him.” The mistranslation is such: “Rosh,” or “Ros” in Hebrew, translated correctly is always “Chief” or “Head,” never “Russia” (i.e., Rosh Hashana, meaning “Head” of the year)." Bill Wilson, The Daily Jot

Nell

I appreciate your insight and in depth studies 👍. I am also studying and praying fervently for more understanding, revelation and knowledge. Blessings be upon the true believers and followers of Jesus, The Word of God, our Savior and King.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.”

Nell

I do agree with the first part of this about Israel-centric prophecies, but even though these grandsons from Japheth were once located in Turkey during Ezekiel's time, I don't think that requires these tribes to remain in Turkey for the next 3 Millennia.

Also, I do think it's more than a coincidence that Rosh, Meshech (Moscow, Russia) is exactly north of Jerusalem on the same longitude within a couple degrees.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I appreciate your insight and in depth studies 👍. I am also studying and praying fervently for more understanding, revelation and knowledge. Blessings be upon the true believers and followers of Jesus, The Word of God, our Savior and King.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Thanks, Carole. Its important to "keep the things that are written", but hard to keep if you don't know what these "things" are! "The time is at hand" might indicate we should have started our "keeping" a long time ago.

Your thoughts are appreciated and welcome on this topic. Going back to the beginning verses of prophecy (I think, maybe), the serpent has been rebelling against eatin' dirt since the garden, and has been behind the evil that has existed in God's creation ever since. The serpent, the devil, has read the book of Revelation

Gen. 3:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou [g]above all cattle, and [h]above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall [i]bruise thy head, and thou shalt [j]bruise his heel

Going back to Genesis 6:5 (ASV) And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Chuck Missler brought to my attention that the book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible that states we are literally blessed for reading it. Of course we are blessed in reading the entire Bible. ��

I have been a prophesy buff since 2005 when pope John Paul II died.
Revelation 2:19 came to light hitting me like a 2X4. The scripture refers to the church in Thyatira. Her deeds being greater in the end than they were in her beginning.

The list of his accomplishments went on and on and on. Watching all the diplomats, kings, presidents, prime ministers, Jews, Muslims and Christians all paying their respects to this religious man stunned me. These same people were not there for Billy Graham’s funeral. (Not that THAT was important in any way). Just making a point about Revelation 2:19.

That was the start of my journey as I truly believe the Holy Spirit revealed to me we were now running the last leg in the age of Grace.

I remember the first question I had was,

what is the difference between the rapture and the second coming of Christ?

Through the teachings of Chuck Missler and the writings of Clarence Larkin who died in 1925, I learned the rapture is the event in which Christ comes FOR us and the second coming is the event Christ comes WITH us in which every eye will now see Him.

I am not so sure Jesus is coming “FOR” us since it does not say He will touch the ground and pick us up. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we will meet the LORD in the air. The dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive AND REMAIN (hmm ��) will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Interesting that it says “we who are alive AND REMAIN”. I do have some thoughts on why it says “and remain”. But that’s for another day.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 also says we will be changed in the blink of an eye and this mortality will put on immortality and this corruptible body will put on our incorruptible glorious body. We will be translated. I always picture the scenes on Star Trek, where people step on to the transporter and they desintigrate and appear somewhere else. “Beam me up Scotty!”. But it is still a “rapture” event. I don’t believe this event will be like”the left behind books and movies” portray the rapture.

There could very well be a world wide earthquake, the rumors of wars are certainly no longer rumors. But certainly the true Blood washed believers in Christ Jesus will experience an event the world has never experienced as of yet.

There were 2 “raptures” in the OT. First one is Enoch. The second one is Elijah, in 2 kings chapter 2. Elisha, and more than 70 prophets not only witnessed Elijah going up in a chariot, but KNEW Elijah was going to go up that very day.

I believe the Holy Spirit will reveal to each and everyone of us the day we will be glorified and translated, when the time comes.

I realize I sort of dissected from the conversation of the current events at hand. I have my thoughts on this subject too. But for now I will stop here. To be continued later.

Blessings be to all through our Savior and Awesome King, Jesus, the Author, Perfector and Finisher of our Faith in Him.

Come Quickly Beloved Dearest Lord Jesus. Amen.

[Nell]

ARMAGEDDON
Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

When beginning to study the prophecies and trying to figure out what’s going on, I was confused by the invasion of Israel by Magog (Russia) and its allies. My thinking was, how can this possibly not be the battle of Armageddon? My problem was, simple. If it WAS the battle of Armageddon, why didn’t “they” (whoever) just call it “Armageddon”? Well, they didn’t because they didn’t. That’s the only answer I could come up with. So, just keep digging.

When I reached the battle that IS called the battle of Armageddon, David Jeremiah says this: “Satan’s first attempt at persecution will be the battle of Gog and Magog. This battle, which precedes the battle of Armageddon, will be a massive, Russian-led coalition of nations coming against Israel like a swarm of hornets against a defenseless child.” David Jeremiah, Book of Signs, p. 337.

In the battle of Gog and Magog, we are told the battle is so intense that only God Himself can rescue Israel from being annihilated.

Satan knows prophecy, much better than I do. The rebuke he received in the Garden has been ringing in his ears since it happened. He knows his future and has been in a seething rage ever since. The seed of woman is on the scene, ready to crush him once and for all. Satan’s goal, before his own destruction, is to destroy the Jewish people before Christ’s kingdom can be established to rule the earth. This kingdom will be the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant God made with Abraham to bless his people, the Jews and Gentiles.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am not so sure Jesus is coming “FOR” us since it does not say He will touch the ground and pick us up. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we will meet the LORD in the air. The dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive AND REMAIN (hmm ��) will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Interesting that it says “we who are alive AND REMAIN”. I do have some thoughts on why it says “and remain”. But that’s for another day.

I am curious to hear what you have to say... after all, it is now "another day".

A lot rides on this phrase "alive AND remain" if it is being used to support a rapture before the second coming.

Young's translation reads this way:

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (1Th*4:17*YLT)

Note the missing word "and", which the more honest translations will put in italics, indicating that it is not in the Greek.

Young's uses a comma, not a conjunction. This changes the meaning of the verse significantly, and Young's translation is more consistent with the context. As I stated before, Paul is trying to assure the Thessalonians that those who died will see Christ first, at the resurrection. Period. If he believed in a pre-resurrection rapture, this passage would have read differently.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I am curious to hear what you have to say... after all, it is now "another day".

A lot rides on this phrase "alive AND remain" if it is being used to support a rapture before the second coming.

Young's translation reads this way:

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (1Th*4:17*YLT)

Note the missing word "and", which the more honest translations will put in italics, indicating that it is not in the Greek.

Young's uses a comma, not a conjunction. This changes the meaning of the verse significantly, and Young's translation is more consistent with the context. As I stated before, Paul is trying to assure the Thessalonians that those who died will see Christ first, at the resurrection. Period. If he believed in a pre-resurrection rapture, this passage would have read differently.

Thank you for your question. To be clear I truly believe there will be a catching up, a harpazo, or rapture before the second coming of Christ in which every eye will see Him. In fact I think there is going to be more than one rapture but that’s a topic for another time. You may not think so, but that is ok by me. After all we are still here!! And this is just food for thought.


So in Matthew 27:52, of it reads “Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the [a]saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

In 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 we read that
in the twinkling or blink of an eye, the dead (in Christ) shall be raised …and we shall be changed. we will put on our Glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Our bodies will now be Glorified.

Philippians 3:21 says

(Our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ); will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His Glorious Body,


It seems POSSIBLE, repeat POSSIBLE (no actual proof) that when we are changed into our Glorified bodies in the twinkling of an eye, we might remain here for a short time just as many of the the resurrected saints of the OT did when Jesus resurrected as we read in Matthew 27:52.

Why cannot that happen? After all 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we who are alive AND REMAIN! Or as Young’s literal translation reads

And the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Regardless of the translation, the dead in Christ rise first correct? Then we who are living, who are remaining over… WOW, That really brings Mathew 27 to light if you ask me! Those resurrected saints from the OT remained over in Jerusalem!

I think just as the resurrected remained on earth for some time, we could very well remain ourselves.

We have biblical proof that many bodies of the OT saints when they resurrected remained in Jerusalem and appeared to many.

Imagine if our loved ones, friends, neighbors, coworkers saw us in our Glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies before we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air???

What a Glorious testimony! How many people might get saved then. They might not get caught up like we did, but they will be saved and be with the Lord at some point. Again FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

I do want to get back to the Russia/Gog discussion… hopefully sometime today.

Blessings from our Beloved LORD AND KING

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth. and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Frie...

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth. and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

Frie,

I understand your concern...your fears. I think we all share your feelings to one extent or another. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a horror show and we don't know where it will go. We don't know if it's the beginning of the end but it certainly looks like a piece of the end-times puzzle is in play. It would be hard to look at all the things happening now, and not see the seriousness of what's happening.

My prayer is that the Lord will make me ready for whatever comes my way. He is the only one who can do that. He can calm our fears. I don't want to die either. We have no assurances of our time on earth. I talk to Him daily like he's a real person...because he is. I can give you a bunch of verses about trusting Him, etc., but you probably know them as well as I do. The only thing that helps me is to just talk to Him. That has been my practice throughout my Christian walk.

I hope this helps. If you care to request a forum account, we could talk further in the Private Message system, if that would be helpful.

We are told to watch and pray. If you can, talk to Him and watch, and pray, that you will be ready when your time comes...whether that be next month or 30 years from now.

Blessings to you, Frie
Nell

[Nell]

Outline of Revelation, Enhanced 8/26/2024 by Nell
Rev. 1:1-20 – John commissioned by Jesus
Rev. 2:1-3:22— Message to the 7 churches
Ephesus
Smyrna
Pergamos
Thyatira
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Rev. 4:1-5; 5:1-4— Heavenly Court and 7-Sealed Scroll
Throne, 24 elders, 4 “good beasts”
Book with 7 seals
Lamb worthy to open the book

Rev. 6:1-17 – 7 Seals, Judgment
1st Seal—White horse, one of the four beasts, conquering and to conquer
2nd Seal—Red horse, second beast, take peace from the earth, kill
3rd Seal—Black horse, third beast, “a balance”, food shortage, finance?
4th Seal—Pale horse, fourth beast, death and hell
5th Seal—souls of them that were slain cry out
6th Seal—Earthquake; sun blackened, moon as blood; the great day of wrath

Rev. 7:1-17 Sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 8:1-9:21 7th Seal; ½ hour silence in heaven. 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Prayers of the saints.
1st angel; hail and fire with blood; third part of trees, all green grass burnt up.
2nd angel; 3rd part of the sea became blood; 3rd part of the creatures in the sea died; 3rd part of the ships were destroyed.
3rd angel; great star from heaven fell, burning as a lamp on the 3rd part of the rivers, and the fountains of waters; star is called Wormwood: many died of the bitter waters
4th angel; 3rd part of the sun, moon stars darkened. 3 woes: Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev. 10:1-11—11:13 Seal up the things spoken by the seven thunders
Rev. 11:14-19 7th Trumpet
Rev. 12:1—14:20 12 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
13 Beast out of the sea.
14 The Lamb with 144,000

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT. (Matt Anderson: 8/26/2024)

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates[a] to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Revelation14
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. (Insert by Nell)

Rev. 15:1—16:21 7 Bowls

Rev. 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
(Added by Nell: 8/26/2024)

Rev. 17:1-19—19:10 Judgment of Babylon the Great
Rev 19, 21. 2nd Coming

Rev 20: 7 - 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev. 21:9—22:5 The beast and false prophecied judged.
Rev. 22:6—22:21 Final Exhortation


NOTES: I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment. I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

I Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.
--Matt Anderson 8/26/2024

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Frie...

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth.

it´s still going to take some time for the very last bad time on earth. There are many things that need to line up and happen before that.

Originally Posted by Frie...

and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

Nobody can say rightly that "they are ready." So we all need to press on. The Lord understands and He is merciful, we just have to continue growing and doing His will and word.

NATO has big muscles, although anything can happen, the likelihood that this would spread to war in Germany seems pretty low.

Thanks for the kind words Raptor & Nell, I'll look at this for revelation. Membership here is difficult. I do not speak English. Google doesn't translate very well. I pray a lot in tongues, now for the situation, probably mainly for the saints, unfortunately I don't understand myself what I'm speaking.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Frie...

Thanks for the kind words Raptor & Nell, I'll look at this for revelation. Membership here is difficult. I do not speak English. Google doesn't translate very well. I pray a lot in tongues, now for the situation, probably mainly for the saints, unfortunately I don't understand myself what I'm speaking.

Frie…

Thank you for posting. We will pray for you.

We will also help you as best we can with the language barrier if you want to give membership a try. There are other translators that might work better for you.

Regardless, please stay in touch.
Nell

[Nell]

Rev. 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The timing of the Magog/Russia, Ezekiel 37-38 battle, as seen above, occurs after the millennium when Satan is loosed, defeated by God Himself, then cast into the lake of fire. The timing is notable in contrast to the current events today regarding Russia. A lot of things will happen before this event.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

The following verses (vv. 10-12) have been even more striking to me. V.9 says, "The coming of whom ..." referring to this "lawless one."

These last few years have displayed such a growing "delusion, the operation of error, (v.11) sent by God Himself to those who rejected the love of truth, that they all would believe the lie."

This partly explains the great apostasy. Not just in the church, but all mankind rejecting what is true, what is truth. People are even losing the ability to find and know what is true.

isn't that time now? Here in Germany, in the new government, more than half of them left out the sentence "with God's help" when they were sworn in. And evil, sin is called good, and good evil.

and this bible text fits a single autocrat who is currently putting people in fear and terror, i sit here and am helpless when i see how he himself is fooling politicians.

daniel 8, 15-27 15 When I, Daniel, had the vision and was trying to understand it, suddenly someone who looked like a man stood before me. 16 At the same time I heard a voice over the Ulai Channel calling out to him, "Gabriel, explain the vision to him!" 17 Then he came up to me. When he approached, I was so startled that I fell to the ground. But he said to me, "You, man, should understand that this vision pertains to the last days." 18 As he said this, I lay stunned on the ground, face to the ground. Then he touched me and put me back on my feet. 19 Then he said: "I will explain to you what will happen at the end of the judgment. For it is about the time when the end will come. 20 The ram with the two horns means the kings of Media and Persia, 21 the shaggy one The great horn between the goat's eyes is the first king of the Greek kingdom.* 22 That it broke off and that four others grew up in its place means: From the people of Greece there will be four kingdoms*, but not so many Having power like the first king. 23 Then when the reign of these kingdoms comes to an end, and the measure of the apostates of Israel is full, a bold and deceitful king* will appear. 24 He will become very powerful, though not by his own strength, and 25 Through his cunning he succeeds in deception. In his greatness he will kill many unsuspecting people. Even against the supreme Lord he will rise up, but eventually be crushed without human intervention*. 26 What you have heard about the evening and morning sacrifices is also true. But you should keep well what you have seen, for it relates to many days (Google Translate)

ist diese zeit nicht jetzt? hier in Deutschland, die neue Regierung? von denen hat über die hälfte bei ihrer vereidigung, den satz mit gottes hilfe weggelassen. Und Böses, Sünde wird gut genannt, und Gutes Böse.

und dieser bibeltext, passt zu einem einzelnen autokraten, der aktuell die menschen in angst und schrecken versetzt, ich sitze hier und bin hilflos, wenn ich das sehe, wie der selbst politiker hinters licht führt.

daniel 8, 15-27 15 Als ich, Daniel, die Vision hatte und sie zu verstehen suchte, stand plötzlich einer vor mir, der wie ein Mann aussah. 16 Gleichzeitig hörte ich eine Stimme über dem Ulai-Kanal, die ihm zurief: "Gabriel, erkläre ihm die Vision!" 17 Da kam er auf mich zu. Als er näher trat, erschrak ich so sehr, dass ich zu Boden stürzte. Doch er sagte zu mir: "Du, Mensch, sollst verstehen, dass diese Vision sich auf die letzte Zeit bezieht." 18 Während er das sagte, lag ich wie betäubt auf der Erde, das Gesicht auf dem Boden. Da berührte er mich und stellte mich wieder auf die Beine. 19 Dann sagte er: "Ich will dir erklären, was am Ende des Strafgerichts geschehen wird. Denn es geht um die Zeit, in der das Ende kommt. 20 Der Schafbock mit den beiden Hörnern meint die Könige von Medien und Persien, 21 der zottige Ziegenbock das griechische Königreich. Das große Horn zwischen den Augen des Ziegenbocks ist der erste König des Griechenreiches.* 22 Dass es abbrach und dass an seiner Stelle vier andere aufwuchsen, bedeutet: Aus dem Griechenvolk werden vier Reiche entstehen*, die aber nicht so viel Macht haben wie der erste König. 23 Wenn dann die Herrschaft dieser Reiche zu Ende geht und das Maß der Abtrünnigen Israels voll ist, wird ein frecher und hinterlistiger König* auftreten. 24 Er wird sehr mächtig werden, wenn auch nicht durch eigene Kraft, und wird ungeheures Verderben anrichten. Was er unternimmt, wird ihm gelingen. Er wird die Starken vernichten und Gottes heiliges Volk ins Verderben stürzen. 25 Dank seiner Schlauheit gelingt ihm der Betrug. In seinem Größenwahn wird er viele ahnungslose Menschen umbringen. Selbst gegen den höchsten Herrn wird er sich erheben, aber schließlich ohne menschliches Zutun* zerschmettert werden. 26 Auch was du über die Abend- und Morgenopfer gehört hast, ist wahr. Doch du sollst das, was du gesehen hast, gut verwahren, denn es bezieht sich auf viele Tage."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Frie...

isn't that time now? here in Germany, the new government? more than half of them left out the sentence with god's help when they were sworn in. And evil, sin is called good, and good evil.

and this bible text fits a single autocrat who is currently putting people in fear and terror, i sit here and am helpless when i see how he himself is fooling politicians.

Putin? the Antichrist? No way. Read about the 10 horns in Daniel 7, they need to come first. 10 Kingdoms out of which Antichrist comes. Where are the ten kings today? Not here yet.

Putin is NOT that strong, attractive, cunning, able, or powerful to be the Antichrist. And he is definately NOT deceiving most of the world. There have been many worse than him.

Raptor, Thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Putin? the Antichrist? No way. Read about the 10 horns in Daniel 7, they need to come first. 10 Kingdoms out of which Antichrist comes. Where are the ten kings today? Not here yet.

Putin is NOT that strong, attractive, cunning, able, or powerful to be the Antichrist. And he is definately NOT deceiving most of the world. There have been many worse than him.

Agreed. Good points, Raptor. The Antichrist will initially be considered the savior of the [western] world. Israel will consider him the long-awaited Messiah. Thugs like Putin, however, may help set the stage for his arrival on the world scene. NATO may be the visible strength of his military power. The current weaknesses in WashDC may transfer the real western leadership to Europe real soon, since they are on record saying our top global “threat” is white supremacy and the use of proper pronouns.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Agreed. Good points, Raptor. The Antichrist will initially be considered the savior of the [western] world. Israel will consider him the long-awaited Messiah. Thugs like Putin, however, may help set the stage for his arrival on the world scene. NATO may be the visible strength of his military power. The current weaknesses in WashDC may transfer the real western leadership to Europe real soon, since they are on record saying our top global “threat” is white supremacy and the use of proper pronouns.

Agree about America. My personal speculation is that the US will be greatly weakened at the end times. Of course this could happen in an instance if WWIII happens. Europe will have to stand on its own against a Russia/China alliance.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Frie...

Isn't that time now? Here in Germany, in the new government, more than half of them left out the sentence "with God's help" when they were sworn in. And evil, sin is called good, and good evil.

And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
(1 Jn 4:3)

I find postulating about future prophesies really fascinating, but if taken too far or emphasized too much in common ministry, it can be a distraction from what we as Christians are facing in the here and now. It may seem like a small thing for these German politicians to leave out "with God's help" (many American government officials have been trying to get "In God we trust" removed from our money for decades) but how much further of a step is it to officially deny that Jesus is from God?

Brothers and sisters, the spirit of the antichrist is in the world already. In fact, the spirit of the antichrist has been given at least a two thousand year head-start before the actual antichrist hits the scene. I fear that if God's people do not recognize the spirit of the antichrist, they will be easily deceived by the actual antichrist. Here is a chilling passage from Daniel that should give us a good idea of what we are up against:

And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
(Daniel 11:36,37)

Everywhere we look today certain people "speak astonishing things against the God of gods". Certain people are magnifying themselves above all. Yes, the spirit of the antichrist in now already in the world. And this spirit of the antichrist has already taken up arms against God's people. The battle is here. The battle is now. Yet the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. And our battle is not against the actual people speaking the astonishing things, or even against the people who deny the Jesus is from God, but against the principalities and powers behind them.
-

Danke, ihr drei. So ähnliche Gedanken kamen mir auch. Es macht große Angst. das man das erleben muss.

Thank you, the three of you. Similar thoughts came to me. It is very frightening. that you have to experience that. - -Nell

[Nell]

Whoa! Rampant speculation on the President of Turkey, Erdogan being antichrist. Rather than give you links, I suggest that you type "Erdogan Antichrist" in your browser and read the speculation for yourself. It's interesting. There is some compelling ... stuff.

Nell

[Raptor]

The following study is composed of verses from Daniel chaps. 7,8,9,11,12, about the Antichrist and organized under prevalent themes. Paragraphs are composed of verses simply cut and pasted with very little editing for grammar (changed to present or future tense) and punctuation. 99% of this document consists of verses directly out of the Berean Study Bible.


ANTICHRIST – TIME OF WRATH

"I will make known to you what will happen in the latter time of wrath, because it concerns the appointed time of the end." spoken by the angel Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God.


ORIGIN
The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, and it is extremely terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong, with large iron teeth different from all the other kingdoms. It will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it and trample underfoot whatever is left. It will devour and crush with iron teeth and bronze claws.

The beast has ten horns on its head which are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. Suddenly a little one will come up; when the rebellion has reached its full measure, an insolent king, a despicable person will arise, he will come to the throne. His appearance will be more imposing and different than the others.

CRAFTINESS
He has eyes like those of a man, skilled in intrigue and he will seize the kingdom by intrigue. Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper.

ARROGANCE
He has a mouth that speaks words of arrogance, and he will speak out against the Most High. In his own mind he will make himself great. He will magnify itself, even to the Prince of the host. He will even stand against the Prince of princes and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, nor for the one desired by women, nor for any other god, because he will magnify himself above them all.

SUCCESS
This little horn will emerge and grow extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land. He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain. He will prosper and succeed in whatever he does, the king will do as he pleases. Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed.

POWER
He will extend his power over many countries and gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and over all their riches. He will plot against the strongholds—but only for a time. He will honor a god of fortresses—a god his fathers did not know—with gold, silver, precious stones, and riches. His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause terrible destruction and destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. In a time of peace, he will destroy many. He will attack the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god, his forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. He will also invade the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall. He will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

TIME OF PEACE
He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. He will come in a time of peace and invade the richest provinces and do what his fathers and forefathers never did. He will lavish plunder, loot, and wealth on his followers.

TIME OF DISTRESS
There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.

BREAKING OF COVENANT
In the rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice will be given over to the horn. He will fling truth to the ground and he will intend to change the appointed times and laws. After an alliance is made with him, he will act deceitfully. He will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering, they will abolish the daily sacrifice and he will remove God´s daily sacrifice and overthrow the place of God´s sanctuary. The sanctuary will be surrendered. With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him, making them rulers over many and distributing the land for a price.

DESOLATION
Desolations have been decreed. There will be a rebellion that causes desolation. They will set up the abomination of desolation, on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation.

WAR vs. SAINTS
The saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. The horn will grow as high as the host of heaven, and cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trample them, the host will be trampled. This horn will wage war against the saints and prevail against them, he will oppress the saints of the Most High, he will destroy the holy people.

DESTRUCTION
Until the end there will be war, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him. The court will convene and books opened, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. The beast will be slain, and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. The horn will be broken off, but not by human hands, he will meet his end with no one to help him.

KINGDOM OF GOD
The Ancient of Days will arrive and pronounce judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time will come for them to possess the kingdom. At that time His people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. The sanctuary will be properly restored. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him. The saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.

Danke. Raubvogel.

Google translate: Thanks, Bird of prey.
Nell

https://www-pro--medienmagazin-de.tr..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[Matt Anderson]

End Times Prophecy

The first book in the Bible I studied was Revelation. I was somewhere between 7-9 years old. In classic fashion, I got in trouble for doing something wrong and in the many attempts to figure out how to discipline me my mother gave me the punishment of writing a book report. She pointed at a bookshelf and gave me the option to pick a book from the shelf and write a book report (I don't remember the number of words, but it was multiple pages). I walked to the bookshelf and picked the last green bound book of Life Studies by Witness Lee. That's right, I picked Witness Lee's Life Studies on the Book of Revelation to write my book report about. I am pretty sure these are the ONLY Life Studies by Witness Lee that I ever read.

This moment in my life is sad, funny, true and SOVEREIGN and I am thankful for it to this day.

I wrote my report, presented it to my mom and went on with life. I didn't forget anything I read from Lee.

About 8-10 years later, I began to revisit the subject of End Times prophecy. A few years before this, I had begun to read my Bible with interest and to develop a relationship with the Lord for myself. I was in the process of unlearning some of the things I received from the Local Church that needed to be tested and set aside. I was also in the process of keeping the things which were good (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21).

This second time of learning about End Times prophecy was much more significant and I began to test everything that Witness Lee had said. It wasn't my goal to cast aside everything from Lee. I had just realized that I had received a mixed bag in my mind from what Lee taught on this subject and that I needed to start filtering it down.

To close this introduction, beyond my 7-9 year old experience with the Life Studies of Revelation I have had three (maybe four) more phases with End Times Prophecy in my life. I've filtered Lee. I've studied what many others believe from multiple points of view (there are at least 4 major views). Then I stopped and told the Lord that I was done. I had learned enough that I didn't need to learn more. I asked the Lord to bring it back to my attention if and when it was relevant for me. This led to a new adventure. The Lord taught me a number of things that ended up connecting with End Times Prophecy, but I didn't realize it. Then in late 2016, God put it back in front of me with a number of significant realizations and the Lord began weaving things together that I could have never anticipated. Since then, it feels like a process of progressive realization that has significantly changed this subject for me.

I've shared these things with a number of others and I have tried to "test" what I have learned with others who are well informed on these subjects.

I'd like to take some time to share some of the things I have learned (and unlearned). I'd also like to share a little bit about how my perspective has changed and how I approach End Times prophecy now.

To be clear, I am not trying to convince anyone of a new point of view with any claim that "Aha! I have it figured out!". I don't. I see darkly as in mirror. I see foreshadowings. I also see some common deceptions that are broadly held which are highly, highly unlikely to be truth. They may have some slice or glint of truth, but they fundamentally mislead believers into a lukewarm status.

So, I am writing here because of my concern for believers that matches what Jesus tells the disciples in Matthew 24:3-4

And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came up to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Watch out that no one deceives you!" ...

Here are some key subjects I'd like to "pontificate" about

• How I approach and handle End Times prophetic subjects now (versus earlier in my life)
• What is the Great Tribulation (and who is in it)?
• What is (and is not) God's Wrath?
• Who is Israel? (Extremely important topic that can significantly alter our understanding of End Times prophecy)
• The touchy subject of The Rapture
• Some key subjects along the Prophetic Timeline (more specifics on this later...)

[Matt Anderson]

End Times Prophecy

How I approach and handle End Times prophetic subjects now (versus earlier in my life)


This post is the least relevant post about the actual subjects of End Times prophecy, but I feel it is essential to lay a little ground work for what I am starting to share.

Like most people, I WANT TO KNOW. I want to have knowledge and I want my knowledge to be correct. Given this natural disposition, it used to be my goal to study, figure things out and come to a point of view that I claimed as my own.

In my late teens, I had a teacher that taught me that this may not be the wisest approach. I didn't learn what this teacher taught me right away. It took some time. My teacher was Witness Lee. When I read his Life Studies on the Book of Revelation I understood how he had put together a comprehensive picture of End Times prophecy. I came to think of it in terms of drawing a circle. He appeared to have drawn a complete, unbroken circle with his interpretation of End Times prophecy. As I studied what Lee had written a second time (not at 7-9 years old, but 18-19 years old), I realized that there were some breaks in the circle he had drawn. He didn't say there were breaks, but I began to see them. So, I began to shift my goal. There was still a strong (and I believe fleshly) desire TO KNOW. I studied further, but I realized that someone who was intelligent and very learned couldn't draw a full and complete circle in their interpretation of End Times prophecy.

So, I worked on drawing my incomplete circle as completely as I could. I think I did a pretty good job. At this stage, I did not realize my assumptions and those assumptions I inherited from others.

By the end of this multi-year exercise which happened in chunks at various times, I was convinced that I had an incomplete circle. There were questions that I could not definitively answer and that I felt that anyone who was intellectually honest also could not definitively answer. The only thing I could do with these unanswerable questions was to survey a set of possible answers and assign some weighting to their likelihood based on my understanding.

This was where I stopped this phase of End Times prophecy study and learning. I could definitively know some things while others were a set of possible options which I could know about, but not come to a definitive answer or conclusion. So, I left various things about End Times prophecy in a state of "Open Questions" and I asked God to put these things back in front of me at a later time if I needed to know more.

During the next 15-20 years, I learned one other core lesson that has influenced my approach to End Times prophecy. Without sharing any testimonial, I will simply state what I learned.

I have learned that answers to difficult questions come by revelation from God. In addition to His revelation, I have to use a sober/healthy mind to test what I believe has been revealed using several "tools".

I have to do this in a relationship that is completely dependent upon God for this revelation. I cannot force God to show me anything and I will only know what He wants me to know when He wants me to know it.

Until He does this, I can know the things He has presented in Scripture as "knowledge without full understanding". This is what I call "seeing darkly as in a mirror" or seeing a "shadowy picture which is not in focus". I can only see more clearly when He reveals it. Many times this happens progressively.

I cannot emphasize enough the dependent approach to learning. I am not driving the conversation or setting the subjects. I express my curiousity and interest in certain things, but I recognize that He has to reveal it. For me, it has been through this approach that I have come to understand more about End Times prophecy than I ever thought possible.

I am an active listener in receipt of things which I believe the Lord has shown me and I do not presume that I immediately have an accurate interpretation of something that He has shown me. I am responsible to test with the "tools" and training God has given me over the years.

In summary, there are many things about End Times prophecy that I do not understand. I have a shadowy image as presented through Scripture and I am completely dependent on relating to God and listening to Him to understand any further. In my experience, God has only made things clearer to me when I needed them to be clearer. He has not satisfied many aspects of my curiosity or interest to know. So, I know I have to continue to be connected to Him related to the End Times.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

End Times Prophecy

How I approach and handle End Times prophetic subjects now (versus earlier in my life)


This post is the least relevant post about the actual subjects of End Times prophecy, but I feel it is essential to lay a little ground work for what I am starting to share.

Like most people, I WANT TO KNOW. I want to have knowledge and I want my knowledge to be correct. Given this natural disposition, it used to be my goal to study, figure things out and come to a point of view that I claimed as my own……

……In summary, there are many things about End Times prophecy that I do not understand. I have a shadowy image as presented through Scripture and I am completely dependent on relating to God and listening to Him to understand any further. In my experience, God has only made things clearer to me when I needed them to be clearer. He has not satisfied many aspects of my curiosity or interest to know. So, I know I have to continue to be connected to Him related to the End Times.

Matt

First of all…nice to “see” you here after a very long time.

2ndly…I truly was captivated reading your posts.

And to everyone else, starting with Nell, Thank you all for posting and sharing.
I am so glad this topic is up for discussion as we ARE living in the END TIMES.

Muchos blessings be upon all.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am so glad this topic is up for discussion as we ARE living in the END TIMES.

Muchos blessings be upon all.

Every generation since the Lord ascended has had believers thinkining the Lord was going to come back during their life time.

We do have the vantage point of more history to look at, but we still don´t know; the Lord may come back in 20 years, 50 or 100....So if it´s 100, are we living in the END TIMES?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Every generation since the Lord ascended has had believers thinkining the Lord was going to come back during their life time.

The recent Covid lockdowns sparked many progressive leaders to first investigate contact tracking and later demand societal expulsion for vaccine hesitant resistors. This seemed to me unprecedented in history and like a serious preparation for the pending mark of the beast.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Every generation since the Lord ascended has had believers thinkining the Lord was going to come back during their life time.

We do have the vantage point of more history to look at, but we still don´t know; the Lord may come back in 20 years, 50 or 100....So if it´s 100, are we living in the END TIMES?

The difference between this generation and other generations is the re birth of the nation of Israel and the return of Jerusalem back to Israel from Jordan in 1967.

Jesus could not return prior to this historical event because of what He said in Matthew 24:32-35

The question is whether a generation is 70, 80 or 120 years. I personally don’t see it being 120 yrs.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The recent Covid lockdowns sparked many progressive leaders to first investigate contact tracking and later demand societal expulsion for vaccine hesitant resistors. This seemed to me unprecedented in history and like a serious preparation for the pending mark of the beast.

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The difference between this generation and other generations is the re birth of the nation of Israel and the return of Jerusalem back to Israel from Jordan in 1967.

Jesus could not return prior to this historical event because of what He said in Matthew 24:32-35

The reference to "this generation" always poses the question, "how long is this generation?"

But one thing is certain -- the prophecies are Israel-centric. All the prophets focused on what was happening in Israel. Myriads of Jews died in eastern Europe from numerous pogroms starting even in the early 19th century. Others dies from forced emigrations. Wholesale slaughters did not end until Israel became a nation, but that was the just the beginning of their struggles as a free people.

Yet as horrible as the WW2 Holocaust was, and many thought the end was then nigh, yet without the nation of Israel, without their capital Jerusalem, without possession of Mt. Zion, without their Temple, and without the restoration of "sacrifice and the oblation," (Daniel 9.27) the end is not yet.

Many had foretold the coming of Christ around Y2K, based on the principle of 7 days of Creation foretelling 7 millennia of history. But that was based on the time of the birth of Christ, rather than the death of the Christ ~ AD 30.

What do you think?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The reference to "this generation" always poses the question, "how long is this generation?"

Yeah… that’s the million dollar question! I used to think a generation could be 40 yrs. Then, with a little help, I learned many people quote Psalm 90:10 to base what a generation is: “for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years”.

Others quote Genesis 6:3 “ Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Back then people easily lived 120 years. Not so today.

But one thing is certain -- the prophecies are Israel-centric. All the prophets focused on what was happening in Israel.

Very true indeed. There are some very good dispensationalist teachers out there. Their teachings explain how the Bible is written for all to read, but it is not written to everyone. The 4 gospels is mostly written TO the Jews, as is Acts 1 to about Acts 13. From Acts 1-13, the Good News is mostly preached to the Jewish people. In Acts 13, Paul begins preaching to the gentiles but he also preaches to the Jews. He sure was given a heavy duty task by God!

Oh…and the book of Hebrews… while we glean a LOT from it and I have grown spiritually from studying it, it is addressed to THE HEBREWS ! I have heard some teachers think it is very possible Hebrews will be the first book the Jewish people will read after the rapture. Interesting train of thought.I

There is also another so called controversial book in the NT (that is not controversial to me btw). And that book is James. It is addressed to the 12 tribes of Israel…

“ James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings”

It’s not being addressed to the converted Gentiles. But I personally have gleaned a lot from that book too. Another book the Jews will possibly read after the rapture.

Yet as horrible as the WW2 Holocaust was, and many thought the end was then nigh, yet without the nation of Israel, without their capital Jerusalem, without possession of Mt. Zion, without their Temple, and without the restoration of "sacrifice and the oblation," (Daniel 9.27) the end is not yet…

And sadly Israel will suffer terribly again during the coming Trib. However there will be many miracles too. IMHO, the 144,000 Israelites who will be sealed with the Seal of God on their foreheads, Revelation 7 will perform miracles providing shelter, food, water, healings to help people believe in Christ Jesus. Unlike those that take the mark of the beast, the 144,000 will have the Seal of GOD on their foreheads.

Those that take the mark of the beast, will have either the name of the beast or the number of his name. (Revelation 13).

Btw, I read somewhere that the word “end” really means “climax”. “The climax is not yet”. The climax will occur either at the battle of Armageddon or the final battle at the end of the millennium when Satan is loosed for a little while.


Many had foretold the coming of Christ around Y2K, based on the principle of 7 days of Creation foretelling 7 millennia of history. But that was based on the time of the birth of Christ, rather than the death of the Christ ~ AD 30.

What do you think?

Y2K was all the buzz around the world….yet we are still here.

But HOPEFULLY SOON :

[Matt Anderson]

But one thing is certain -- the prophecies are Israel-centric. All the prophets focused on what was happening in Israel.

Prophecies are Israel-centric. One of the things that has changed for me is one of the key questions I mentioned in my first post on this thread.

• Who is Israel? (Extremely important topic that can significantly alter our understanding of End Times prophecy)

As time permits, I'll be digging into this question and possibly affecting your view of who Israel is as an audience of End Times Prophecy.

As a preview, we do know and agree that most prophecies are Israel-centric but Israel is not a singular audience. Israel is a collection of tribes where various tribes are given different prophecies in some cases. At a higher level there are two major sub-groupings in OT Israel that receive distinct prophetic utterances.

Here is one prophetic text where these two major sub-groupings are represented.

Ezekiel 37:16 - “And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’

Judah, stick of Judah (for the sons of Israel, his companions) - southern kingdom of Israel and "sons of Israel" uses the Hebrew word ben which is typically a blood-line descendent

For Joseph, stick of Ephraim (all the house of Israel, his companions) - northern kingdom of Israel and ALL in the "house of Israel". Membership in a "house" does not require a bloodline connection. It includes bloodline descendants, but can also include adoptees and other members the master of the house has chosen to include.

These references to two major sub-groupings under the label "Israel" are not isolated. There is consistent usage of these sub-groupings in various prophetic text throughout the Old Testament.

At first, you may already think you have a view of these sub-groupings because of the history of Israel, but what has opened up for me and I believe it is confirmed by Paul the Apostle is that these sub-groupings also have significant implications for the End Times. So, even though prophecy is "Israel-centric" it may be time to begin to REMAP and REFINE our understanding of WHO ISRAEL IS and how we MAP the various prophecies forward to groups of modern people while preserving the "Israel-centric" nature of End Times prophecy.

I'm going to take the label "Israel" and begin to poke at whether the label "Israel" applies to is a singular grouping in modern times OR whether it points to multiple groupings. If multiple groupings then who are they. The Bible should tell us some about who they are and I believe it does.

And yes, I am going to be bringing up whether or not we as christians fall under the scope of the "whole house of Israel" from an End Times prophetic point of view. Many people have a hardened view that "the church" is completely distinct from "Israel". There is definitely a distinction, but I believe I have come to see that the totality of scripture does not support the level of distinction that most christians make.

This is more complex and challenges assumptions. My assumptions have been challenged and a rich tapestry of prophecies, types and foreshadowings have emerged for me over time that has significantly challenged the views I read about at first about End Times prophecy.

Matt

P.S. I have never come to a conclusion about the length of a "generation". There is no definitive way to figure it out, but I do believe the "End Times" spans a longer period of time than most might think with the exception of the last 7 (Daniel's 70th week) or 3.5 years. It is certain that the last 3.5 years is definitive and limited to that time window. It is likely that the last 7 years (which includes the last 3.5) happens without a gap. So, I believe we can be in the "End Times" without yet being in the last 7 years.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The recent Covid lockdowns sparked many progressive leaders to first investigate contact tracking and later demand societal expulsion for vaccine hesitant resistors. This seemed to me unprecedented in history and like a serious preparation for the pending mark of the beast.

Politics and politicians can be and are very corrupt...., but generally speaking, leaders in a society trying to implement measures during a pandemic to help prevent the spreading of a virus:

unprecedented in history? Just read examples of vaccination policy history here, "The first school vaccination requirement was enacted in the 1850s in Massachusetts to prevent the spread of smallpox."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccin..._United_States

is a serious preparation for the mark of the beast There is no logic to that, no real connection.

[Matt Anderson]

What is the Great Tribulation?

I don't see this topic as terribly complex like some other topics, but I have found it is important to define this clearly as part of the overall discussion on the topic of End Times prophecy.

• Jesus calls it "Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)
• The Great Tribulation is more than the "tribulation" that all christians experience in the world (John 16:33)
• The Great Tribulation is "short" (Matthew 24:21-22)
• The Great Tribulation is either 3.5 or 7 years long. There are two primary portions of the Bible that establish these time periods which I map to the label "Great Tribulation"
• Daniel 9:24-27 establishes a 7 year period (the 70th week of years) which is split into two 3.5 year halves.
• Revelation establishes a 3.5 year period - 1260 days (Rev 11:3, 12:6), 42 months (Rev 11:2, 13:5), time, times and half a time (Rev 12:14). It may not be obvious at first, but if you study the text and events described in Revelation closely, I believe it is valid to conclude that each of these references (1260d, 42m, etc) to 3.5 years is actually referring to the exact same period of 3.5 years with different references/labels.
• My belief is that there is a continuous 7 year period (referred to in Daniel) where the last 3.5 years is the subject of a large portion of the Book of Revelation.

Note: every time I say year, I mean the 1260 day lunar year, not the 365.25 day long solar year.

Personally, I believe the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long but I hold my belief "loosely". I accept that my choice of what to believe could be wrong and that a 7 year view of Great Tribulation is viable. I choose the 3.5 year option with an 80% likelihood, but recognize that it could be 7 years. It is not important to me to say that I have it right. It is important to me to be aware that both options are possible and I will depend on the Lord to further clarify my understanding at the right time IF he chooses to do so.

Simply put, I think I have a good interpretation with a 3.5 year long view of "the Great Tribulation", but I DON'T CARE IF I AM RIGHT. I care that I have a good attitude about listening and hearing if and when God reveals and clarifies.

Who is in the Great Tribulation?

The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

• 144,000 Sealed Ones
• Saints
• Earth Dwellers

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

I agree that a large portion of Revelation applies to "Israel", but I do not agree that this necessarily dictates that that rapture of the whole church has occurred. I already know most of the views and all the supporting scripture used to back up the pre-tribulational rapture of the church. I'm not going to try to argue that the pre-tribulational rapture is wrong. Instead, I am going to list the options that various people believe in (including the pre-trib view) and review them. There are other views that have strong validity from scripture. I'm not ready to dive into this subject yet, but I am being forthright that I can show at least one different view that I believe competes against a pre-trib view very competitively.

Based on the text of Revelation, when does the Great Tribulation (3.5 years) start?

I am presenting this part without the foundation that brought me to this conclusion. I may have to "fill in the blank" (i.e. foundational elements of this assertion).

I believe the 3.5 year Great Tribulation starts with the opening of the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17). I believe this correlates with Joel 2:30-31 where it says that the events happening in the creation (sun, moon, etc) precede the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". Take close note of the condition of the moon. In Rev 6:12 and Joel 2:31 describe a blood moon. This is distinct from Matthew 24:29 and Joel 2:10 where the moon is darkened. Matthew 24:29 says the moon is darkened AFTER the time of Great Tribulation. So, I think the Great Tribulation is book ended with great disturbances in the creation in the heavens and on the earth, but the moon is the key to setting the opening book end and the closing book end. The moon is turned to blood as the opening book end and the moon is darkened as the closing book end.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Politics and politicians can be and are very corrupt...., but generally speaking, leaders in a society trying to implement measures during a pandemic to help prevent the spreading of a virus:

unprecedented in history? Just read examples of vaccination policy history here, "The first school vaccination requirement was enacted in the 1850s in Massachusetts to prevent the spread of smallpox."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccin..._United_States

is a serious preparation for the mark of the beast There is no logic to that, no real connection.

Carol here.
As I see it, the mandatory masks and mandatory vaccines ARE a precursor to being able to buy and sell with only the mark of the beast as described in Revelation 13:16-17. These mandate masks and mandate vaccines are test runs if you ask me. For almost 2 years we could not enter a store or restaurant without wearing a mask. Many employers let go employees who refused to get a vaccine.

I know people who are still paralyzed with fear even after they have been fully, double and tripled vaccinated.

It was/is a huge red flag of what is to come.

I never understood how the mark of the beast was going to be enforced. It is very obvious now. You induce fear and control the masses who then obey the powers that be, “the kings of the earth” with no questions asked.

Those that refuse will suffer consequences.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is the Great Tribulation?

Note: every time I say year, I mean the 1260 day lunar year, not the 365.25 day long solar year.

I need to remember that for myself!!

Personally, I believe the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long but I hold my belief "loosely"……..
……Simply put, I think I have a good interpretation with a 3.5 year long view of "the Great Tribulation", but I DON'T CARE IF I AM RIGHT. I care that I have a good attitude about listening and hearing if and when God reveals and clarifies.

Great attitude. I myself am pretty convinced “The great tribulation” is 3 1/2 yrs long. I am pretty sure it will begin soon after the “first” rapture. I believe there will be at least 3 raptures. After the first “biggie”.

Who is in the Great Tribulation?

The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

[*] 144,000 Sealed Ones

There is an interesting study I found on the 144,000 but not ready to share it yet.

[*] Earth Dwellers

Another interesting study I am doing on them but don’t have enough info yet to share.

If you or anyone has thoughts on the earth dwellers please share. Thank you.

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

I agree with your thoughts. I hold a dispensationalist view but don’t agree with everything certain dispensationalists teach.

I agree that a large portion of Revelation applies to "Israel", but I do not agree that this necessarily dictates that that rapture of the whole church has occurred.

I agree. As I stated, I believe there are at least 3 more raptures after the big one. I also don’t believe the wedding mentioned in Revelation 21 occurs right after the first rapture.

Everywhere I turn, people are believing the Lord is coming for His Bride, referring to the rapture. I don’t think that is what is going to happen right after the rapture.

Gotta run now!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Politics and politicians can be and are very corrupt...., but generally speaking, leaders in a society trying to implement measures during a pandemic to help prevent the spreading of a virus:

unprecedented in history? Just read examples of vaccination policy history here, "The first school vaccination requirement was enacted in the 1850s in Massachusetts to prevent the spread of smallpox."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccin..._United_States

is a serious preparation for the mark of the beast There is no logic to that, no real connection.

Don’t wish to go off on the Public Health Officials who are the mass murderers behind this recent DemPanic, but you and I watched two very different news reporting these last couple years.

But back on topic. Why would our “leaders” attempt to enact, with various levels of success, the exact same penalties prophesied in Revelation surrounding the mark of the beast for some outbreak of flu?

“No logic, no connection?” Have you not read Revelation, that those without the mark of the beast could not buy or sell? Now just substitute Vax Papers, and the Orwellian plans to prevent those without these papers, not to be able to buy food, go shopping, go to work, live your life.

I have a family member who lost his job, had his car repossessed, went bankrupt, etc. all because he rejected the shot. One day the same, and worse, will happen to those who reject the Beast “shot.” It WILL happen because the Bible said so.

But you can’t see any connection.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Carol here.
As I see it, the mandatory masks and mandatory vaccines ARE a precursor to being able to buy and sell with only the mark of the beast as described in Revelation 13:16-17. These mandate masks and mandate vaccines are test runs if you ask me. For almost 2 years we could not enter a store or restaurant without wearing a mask. Many employers let go employees who refused to get a vaccine.

I know people who are still paralyzed with fear even after they have been fully, double and tripled vaccinated.

It was/is a huge red flag of what is to come.

I never understood how the mark of the beast was going to be enforced. It is very obvious now. You induce fear and control the masses who then obey the powers that be, “the kings of the earth” with no questions asked.

Those that refuse will suffer consequences.

For those who think this recent flu pandemic naturally occurred …

First, our g’ment financed the manufacture of Covid virus in Wuhan lab, deceiving us all.

Second, our g’ment prevented the use of perfectly safe off-label therapeutics which could have prevented nearly all deaths, by criminalizing and demonizing their use.

Third, our g’ment has endangered thousands by requiring everyone to be vaxxed, removing all liabilities, and hiding adverse effects. (VAERS)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those who think this recent flu pandemic naturally occurred …

First, our g’ment financed the manufacture of Covid virus in Wuhan lab, deceiving us all.

Second, our g’ment prevented the use of perfectly safe off-label therapeutics which could have prevented nearly all deaths, by criminalizing and demonizing their use.

Third, our g’ment has endangered thousands by requiring everyone to be vaxxed, removing all liabilities, and hiding adverse effects. (VAERS)

If you put the federal g’ment in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand.
- Milton Friedman

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Carol here.
As I see it, the mandatory masks and mandatory vaccines ARE a precursor to being able to buy and sell with only the mark of the beast as described in Revelation 13:16-17. These mandate masks and mandate vaccines are test runs if you ask me. For almost 2 years we could not enter a store or restaurant without wearing a mask. Many employers let go employees who refused to get a vaccine.

I know people who are still paralyzed with fear even after they have been fully, double and tripled vaccinated.

It was/is a huge red flag of what is to come.

I never understood how the mark of the beast was going to be enforced. It is very obvious now. You induce fear and control the masses who then obey the powers that be, “the kings of the earth” with no questions asked.

Those that refuse will suffer consequences.

100% speculation. You have no basis in Scripture. Illogical.

It is these baseless assertions that bring a bad name to the faith.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

100% speculation. You have no basis in Scripture. Illogical.

It is these baseless assertions that bring a bad name to the faith.

Raptor,

Of course Carol was speculating. She said as much. That's what we do...we speculate. We discuss. You are free to agree or disagree. Carol didn't make a "baseless assertion". She wasn't talking about "the faith". When you begin a sentence with "As I see it, ...", that means "I"m going to speculate...". It implies "I don't have scripture".

So, Carol framed her remarks appropriately. Her remarks were not "without logic". She made her case. I personally agree with her about the possibility of the precursor she described.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

100% speculation. You have no basis in Scripture. Illogical.

It is these baseless assertions that bring a bad name to the faith.

Even the unbelievers are starting to connect the news with Biblical prophecy. I am hearing “apocalyptic” all the time.

“Bad name to the faith?” Absurd. I have never had so much opportunity to speak about Revelation. People know things are crazy. They are looking for answers.

It is sin and hypocrisy which bring a "bad name."

And I agree with Carol that “people are paralyzed with fear.” I can say that about some in my family. But God has not given us a “spirit of fear,” and we Christians can “cast all our anxiety on the Lord.” Many get saved due to this fear.

Anyways, like Nell said, all "speculations" welcome!

[UntoHim]

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[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

End Times Prophecy

1. I have learned that answers to difficult questions come by revelation from God. In addition to His revelation, I have to use a sober/healthy mind to test what I believe has been revealed using several "tools".

2. I have to do this in a relationship that is completely dependent upon God for this revelation. I cannot force God to show me anything and I will only know what He wants me to know when He wants me to know it.

3. Until He does this, I can know the things He has presented in Scripture as "knowledge without full understanding". This is what I call "seeing darkly as in a mirror" or seeing a "shadowy picture which is not in focus". I can only see more clearly when He reveals it. Many times this happens progressively. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

I cannot emphasize enough the dependent approach to learning. I am not driving the conversation or setting the subjects. I express my curiousity and interest in certain things, but I recognize that He has to reveal it. For me, it has been through this approach that I have come to understand more about End Times prophecy than I ever thought possible.

4. I am an active listener in receipt of things which I believe the Lord has shown me and I do not presume that I immediately have an accurate interpretation of something that He has shown me. I am responsible to test with the "tools" and training God has given me over the years.

In summary, there are many things about End Times prophecy that I do not understand. ...

Matt

These 4 topics stood out to me:
1. Answers to difficult questions...by revelation from God.
Because of curiosity to "know things", I have a tendency to try to figure things out by research, reading what others have said, pro and con, on what I think the answer might be. Another method we employ, as Christians, is to rely on our understanding of Scripture. "The Bible doesn't say that" or "The Bible says this..." I also rely on what I have been taught by a child, not because I tested what I believe by asking for God's clarity.

2. A particularly ear tickling question might cause me/us to come to a conclusion based on something that God has not revealed, but something research has uncovered.

3. Knowledge without understanding. Wow!

4. Listen to God's answer then test to be sure you heard Him correctly.

Be willing to admit that you/I/we don't know everything.

Knowing God is more important than knowing stuff about prophecy and/or the Bible. Unless He's talking to you via revelation, what you/we/I have may be "knowledge without understanding."

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

These 4 topics stood out to me:
1. Answers to difficult questions...by revelation from God.
Because of curiosity to "know things", I have a tendency to try to figure things out by research, reading what others have said, pro and con, on what I think the answer might be. Another method we employ, as Christians, is to rely on our understanding of Scripture. "The Bible doesn't say that" or "The Bible says this..." I also rely on what I have been taught by a child, not because I tested what I believe by asking for God's clarity.

2. A particularly ear tickling question might cause me/us to come to a conclusion based on something that God has not revealed, but something research has uncovered.

3. Knowledge without understanding. Wow!

4. Listen to God's answer then test to be sure you heard Him correctly.

Be willing to admit that you/I/we don't know everything.

Knowing God is more important than knowing stuff about prophecy and/or the Bible. Unless He's talking to you via revelation, what you/we/I have may be "knowledge without understanding."

Nell

I also ask God the Holy Spirit to help me understand what I am reading, be it a passage or even something unrelated I don’t understand. And while it is not always instantaneously, He always comes through (sometimes it is almost immediately). Most of the time it is followed by confirmation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I also ask God the Holy Spirit to help me understand what I am reading, be it a passage or even something unrelated I don’t understand. And while it is not always instantaneously, He always comes through (sometimes it is almost immediately). Most of the time it is followed by confirmation.

That too! I've always known you to be a bible scholar.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

That too! I've always known you to be a bible scholar.

Aww.. how kind of you Nell! But Bible scholar I’m not. However, I do spend a lot of time studying. 👍

You know as well as I and many former LCrs, we trust man’s Bible teachings with a 10 foot pole!! We tread very carefully! Not only did Lee in particular do a number on us so has the clergy laity system done a number on a lot of people.

In a round about way, it is a good thing because it has made a lot of us search the scriptures for ourselves. I hear and we all, often hear people say “Well. The pastor said this is what the Bible says and the pastor knows!”. Ugh.

When reading, studying or listening to a teacher/preacher, I often pray “LORD. Please don’t let me deceived. Thank You. And Amen”. 👍

Muchos blessings be bestowed upon you dear friend and sister

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those who think this recent flu pandemic naturally occurred …

First, our g’ment financed the manufacture of Covid virus in Wuhan lab, deceiving us all.

TRUE and that is a fact!! Isn’t it interesting that there is no covid talk as Russia attacks Ukraine and the Ukrainians are fleeing? No one is concerned that people could be catching and spreading covid. Did Covid suddenly disappear over there?

Second, our g’ment prevented the use of perfectly safe off-label therapeutics which could have prevented nearly all deaths, by criminalizing and demonizing their use.

I have been taking Vitamin D3 and Zinc for 10-12 years. Plus a whole slew of vitamins and minerals with hopes it will control the Rheumatoid Arthritis my body suffers from. I have not had a cold or any flu since the late 1980s.

I also exercise a lot (water exercises at a gym). Never got vaccinated. I am not going to compromise my already compromised immune system!!

I am not anti vax but I am so thankful I am retired and was never forced or pressured to get vaccinated.

Third, our g’ment has endangered thousands by requiring everyone to be vaxxed, removing all liabilities, and hiding adverse effects. (VAERS)

There are also countless horror stories of people becoming violently ill even dying from the vaccines.

Ohio, I am soo very sorry for your family member having lost everything for rejecting the vax.

Stand on God’s Promises of Philippians 4:19 that He will supply all he and his family’s needs. God will never leave him or forsake him. (Hebrews 13:5)

And trust in the Lord that GOD ALMIGHTY will restore everything back to your family member twice over as He did with Job. Last 2 verses of Job.

Remember too, there is WONDER WORKING POWER ���� in The Blood of the Lamb. So as you pray for your loved ones, cover them in the Precious Blood of Jesus. ��

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Aww.. how kind of you Nell! But Bible scholar I’m not. However, I do spend a lot of time studying. 👍...

I had to smile at this! A Bible scholar is someone who spends a lot of time studying...the Bible.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

There are a number of reasons Christ Himself does not fit as the "man-child" (more literally "male son"). Linked here is a paper, written by A.S. Copely perhaps around 1930. The Manchild by A.S. Copely

Below is a copy of what he said in this paper regarding Jesus Christ being the manchild:

THE MANCHILD IS NOT JESUS CHRIST
1. Jesus was not a sign or wonder child when He was born. He was actually a Jewish child, born
in a stable in Bethlehem.
2. Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt.
The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.
3. Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that
the birth described in Revelation 12 can have no reference to His birth in any sense.
4. Jesus' mother also fled into Egypt with her Babe; but when the manchild was taken up to
heaven, the woman fled into the wilderness alone. John saw the facts of Revelation twelve from
the Day of the Lord; hence, he expressed them as past, though they are still future.
5. Both Jesus and His mother returned from Egypt after some months. But the manchild is not
seen returning from heaven, nor the woman from the wilderness.
6. Jesus went up to heaven, not as a child, but when He was thirty-three years old. The sign child
goes to heaven as soon as it is born, while it is yet a child.
7. Mary was not in heaven - neither before, nor after, her Babe was born. The sign woman of our
text chapter was first seen in heaven, then on earth also. There is not the slightest reference to
Mary in this chapter.
8. We do not read that Mary cried with travail pain. No doubt, the birth of Jesus was lively and
painless, as we read of the Hebrews in Exodus 1:19. This sign woman "cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered."
9. Mary was not a great wonder woman, but a simple Jewish maiden attracting no special
attention even after her Child was born.
10. Mary was not sun-clad, with the moon under her feet. She wore no crown of twelve stars. She
was simply a favored Jewish woman, whom God chose to be the mother of the Messiah. But the
wonder woman will be sun-clad, moon-honored, and star-crowned.
11. Immediately after the birth and ascension of the manchild, war is seen in heaven; but we read
of no war, neither in heaven nor on earth, at the birth of Jesus.
12 . Satan was expecting the birth of the manchild; for he "Stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." But the birth of Jesus was a
surprise to Satan. He did not stir up Herod against Him until after His birth - after the wise men
from the East has inquired of him where the Christ should be born. Next, let us note, that - THE MANCHILD IS NOT THE CHURCH

[Matt Anderson]

What is (and is not) God's Wrath?

• Wrath is stored up for those who do not repent (Romans 2:5-7)
• Wrath is not the entire Great Tribulation, it is just part of it at the end - this is interpretive on my part based on the text of the Bible (Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:10,30-31; Matthew 24:29-30; Revelation 6:12; Revelation 11:15-19; Rev 16)
• It appears based on Biblical text that God's wrath happens with the 7 bowls of wrath poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation.
• The saints do not experience God's wrath. God's wrath targets on unbelieving Israel and the rest of the "earth dwellers"
• So far, I have not found any prophetic text that indicates that any aspect of "God's wrath" happens before the 7 bowls of wrath. I understand that "God's wrath" has been stored up to pour out on all unrighteousness at the end of this age as we transition to Jesus' new kingdom (i.e. millenial kingdom).
• God's wrath is definitely the seventh trumpet (i.e. the last trumpet) which I believe is also at the time of the seventh bowl - read Revelation 11:15-18 where the 24 elders proclaim from heaven "your wrath has come" (v18) referring to God's wrath
• God's wrath also appears to include the first six bowls of wrath, but there is a significantly problematic verse (Rev 16:15) between the sixth and seventh bowls of wrath that has to be addressed.

Note: I use "earth dwellers" in multiple places in my posts. The text of Revelation uses the greek word anthropos which just means man/men. The text around the use of men sets the context for what kind of men they are. If it is clear from the surrounding text that they are not saints, then I call them "earth dwellers". In truth, they can be either unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. They cannot be any type of the saints.

For Reference - Key Verses
- Romans 1:18, 2:5, 5:9, 9:22; Colossians 3:5-6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 11:15-18, 16:19, 19:15

Bowls of Wrath

I'm going to go "into the weeds" here to define the boundaries of "God's wrath". It may not seem to be extremely important, but I think it is necessary to cover this in some detail before getting to the subject of the rapture. The Bible never says that the saints (whomever this label covers during the Great Tribulation) will not experience Great Tribulation. It only says they will not experience "God's wrath" nor are they destined for "God's wrath". I should also note (for later reference) that the Bible does not say that the saints cannot be on the earth during some portion of "God's wrath". It is only completely clear that they can't experience it. I'll be drilling down on this later to present how the Bible could support the presence of the "saints" on the earth even after "God's wrath" starts while not being the target of His wrath. By no means do I want the "saints" to be on the earth for any part of "God's wrath". I don't. I am just being faithful to the complete text and will show you how the text supports this possibility.

Revelation 16:1 - And I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

This seems to pretty obviously connect "God's wrath" to the seven bowls of wrath. With no other text that I can find that happens sequentially before this text, I believe this is a key description of "God's wrath" in the Bible. The challenge with the seven bowls in Revelation 16 is that this chapter is not set in sequential order in the Book of Revelation.

I believe Revelation is structured as follows:

• Chapter 1-3 - Introduction & Seven Churches
• Chapter 4-11 - Main sequential narrative starting before the Great Tribulation (3.5 years) all the way to the end of the Great Tribulation, God's Wrath. I believe the change over to the Millenial Kingdom is minimally referenced at the end of Chapter 11.
• Chapter 12-19 - Expanded Descriptions (or Appendices) which elaborate on the main characters and events of the sequential narrative from Chapter 4-11
• Chapter 20-22 - Continuance of Main sequential narrative including Satan's imprisonmnent, the Millenial Kingdom through to the New Heaven/Earth, New Jerusalem, etc.

Since Revelation 16 is an Appendix, here is how I connected it to the sequential timeline.

Revelation 16:17-21 - And the seventh poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were lightnings and sounds and thunders, and there was a great earthquake, as has not happened from the time humanity has been on the earth—so great in this way was the earthquake. 19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of his furious wrath. 20 And every island fled, and mountains were not found. 21 And large hailstones, weighing about a hundred pounds, came down from the sky upon people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, because the plague of it was very great.

Revelation 11:15,19 - And the seventh angel blew the trumpet, and there was a loud voice in heaven saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign ⌊forever and ever⌋.”
... 19 And the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant appeared in his temple, and there were lightnings and sounds and thunders and an earthquake and large hail.

At first, it may seem a little flimsy to connect these texts based on the items I have bolded. It turns out that God uses the various effects on elements in the creation in various key prophetic scripture. The things happening to these elements in the creation (the sun, the moon, the stars, lightnings, thunders, mountains, islands, coastlands, etc) are reliable for connecting and sequencing some portions of prophetic scripture. Some of the most important synchronization and sequencing of scripture can only be done by paying close attention to the things happening to various elements of the creation in prophetic scripture.

In summary, I have connected the timing of the last trumpet to the last bowl. The first six bowls precede the 7th bowl and the last (7th) trumpet.

Bowl 1-3 (intensified versions of Trumpet 1-3)

• Earth, Sea, Fresh Water extremely affected
• Trumpets affected 33%, Bowls affect 100%
• “Earth Dwellers”/Beast Worshipper’s receive harmful and painful sores with Bowl 1

Bowl 4 - Sun scorches “Earth Dwellers”. They curse God in response. They refuse to repent.
Bowl 5 - 1st Beast’s Kingdom plunged into darkness, pain and sores on “Earth Dwellers” persist. They continue to curse God. They refuse to repent.
Bowl 6 - Euphrates dried up to prepare for kings from the East to assemble for Armageddon

From the text alone, I am not able to definitively say that the first six bowls of wrath happen after the sixth trumpet. However, this seems to be viable and it is my current assumption.

If you read through them, there are some pretty dire descriptions in the first 6 trumpets, but at present I do not include these in my definition of "God's wrath". The bowls of wrath are "God's wrath" and the 7th bowl is the summation of "God's wrath" which completely addresses all unrighteousness and all those who refuse to repent even after going through all of the previous judgments spoken about in Revelation.

I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone could make it through all the judgments in Revelation described before reaching the 7th bowl without being brought to repentance. I could never endure all of it without looking at myself and acknowledging that I have need of repentance. So, those who make it this far without repentance truly deserve "God's wrath".

Matt

[Nell]

The attached paper was written by C. Yoakum in 2017 and contains some very interesting commentary that I have never considered.

Particularly interesting to me is the linkage of the reign of terror by Adolph Hitler playing a role in the fulfillment of prophecy in recent history. This quote specifically: "Adolf Hitler was a forerunner of the antichrist."

Additionally, the paper notes "Germany made a remarkable economic recovery after the war. The whole country was rebuilt, and it now has the
strongest economy in Europe."

On a personal note, Germany was rebuilt initially by the United States Army. One of my family members served 3 tours in Germany after the war as part of the US Army Occupation Forces. His role was as a surveyor. His unit covered Germany and marked, in his words, "every house, barn, tree, stream, and rock in Germany." The work of the US Army laid the foundation for the rebuild of Germany. He spent so much time in Germany that his first child was born in Aschaffenburg.

Another quote: "The fourth beast is beyond the scope of this paper except for one thing. Revelation 13:2 says the fourth
beast will have characteristics of the first three. This can be understood with new light after the first
three beasts have been identified. The antichrist will be stealthy as a leopard, like the Arab League on
Yom Kippur. His feet will be like a bear's, like the Soviet Union's, a massive brutal kingdom trampling
people and nations. His mouth will be like a lion's, like Hitler's, the most infamous mouth in history."

Sound familiar? His feet will be like a bear's, like the Soviet Union's, a massive brutal kingdom trampling
people and nations

If you have questions, C. Yoakum will be available to reply.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you have questions, C. Yoakum will be available to reply.

Nell

Related to Kyle?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Related to Kyle?

Well....I'll just let posters reveal their own identity if they choose...sorry.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is (and is not) God's Wrath?
...
*God's wrath also appears to include the first six bowls of wrath, but there is a significantly problematic verse (Rev 16:15) between the sixth and seventh bowls of wrath that has to be addressed.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

I was raised to believe the "Pre-Tribulation rapture" teaching by well-meaning Christian men. In researching this topic, in my mind, the scriptural "evidence" for this pre-trib teaching continues to dwindle.

Does "Coming as a thief" include unveiling of the truth of the events of the End Times...that is...where our interpretation of scripture is "off"? Although, looking around and noticing that Christians are still here when things are falling apart should indicate that we should still be watching long after we thought it necessary.

And...what does this mean? "and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." What garments? Naked? Not me. I'm a Christian. Shame? I don't get it.

In Genesis 3:7-11, is the first word-picture of the nakedness of man/mankind. Immediately after disobeying God, the man and woman became aware of their nakedness. They had always been naked, they just didn't realize that nakedness, or perhaps, their true dependence on God. Nakedness, or the awareness of nakedness, seems to be the first indication of sin or disobedience.

Then 11 And God said, Who told you that you were naked? He's really asking "who have you been listening to?" Lately, I'm starting to ask myself the same question. I used to listen to Witness Lee and saw the error of my ways.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is (and is not) God's Wrath?

• Wrath is stored up for those who do not repent (Romans 2:5-7)
  
• Wrath is not the entire Great Tribulation, it is just part of it at the end - this is interpretive on my part based on the text of the Bible (Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:10,30-31; Matthew 24:29-30; Revelation 6:12; Revelation 11:15-19; Rev 16)
• It appears based on Biblical text that God's wrath happens with the 7 bowls of wrath poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation.
• The saints do not experience God's wrath. God's wrath targets on unbelieving Israel and the rest of the "earth dwellers"
• So far, I have not found any prophetic text that indicates that any aspect of "God's wrath" happens before the 7 bowls of wrath. I understand that "God's wrath" has been stored up to pour out on all unrighteousness at the end of this age as we transition to Jesus' new kingdom (i.e. millenial kingdom).
• God's wrath is definitely the seventh trumpet (i.e. the last trumpet) which I believe is also at the time of the seventh bowl - read Revelation 11:15-18 where the 24 elders proclaim from heaven "your wrath has come" (v18) referring to God's wrath
• God's wrath also appears to include the first six bowls of wrath, but there is a significantly problematic verse (Rev 16:15) between the sixth and seventh bowls of wrath that has to be addressed.

...Matt

These cited verses are amazing: Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:10,30-31; Matthew 24:29-30; Revelation 6:12; Revelation 11:15-19; Rev 16

Isaiah 13:9-11 9 See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Joel 2:9-11 9 They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows.
10 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
11 The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Joel 2:30-31 30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-30 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Revelation 6:12-13; 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Revelation 11:15-19; 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, ...
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

These cited verses are amazing: Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:10,30-31; Matthew 24:29-30; Revelation 6:12; Revelation 11:15-19; Rev 16

Isaiah 13:9-11 9 See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Joel 2:9-11 9 They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows.
10 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
11 The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Joel 2:30-31 30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-30 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Revelation 6:12-13; 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Revelation 11:15-19; 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,...
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Nell

(I know. I'm replying to my own post.)
One of the "amazing" parts of these verses, which I have never given much consideration, is the consistent, recurring references to God's creation in end times verses. Specifically, the sun, moon and stars. It must mean something, right? I don't know what, but it's worth a little consideration now.

There was discussion a few years back about the "blood moon" and its possible significance in End Times Prophecy. Blood moons are rare, but do happen on a regular cycle. To me, there is significance in these verses:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I believe this might be a companion verse of sorts:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The "invisible things" are clearly seen and understood...in creation. What does that mean? Invisible or...not...to the extent that "they" are without excuse. Does that mean that the gospel of the kingdom has indeed been preached? In context of Romans 1:20-21, the answer might be "yes".

In addition, the verses about "watch" and "look up" seem to, at least partially, reference what's happening in creation that, at some point, we can actually see.

Nell

PS: "destroy them that destroy the earth"? Who is that?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is the Great Tribulation?
...
Who is in the Great Tribulation?
The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

• 144,000 Sealed Ones
• Saints
• Earth Dwellers

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

To define our terminology, and briefly discuss:

"Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture.

***First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning.

***The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal.

There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today. ...

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church. ... "

I'll leave it to Matt, and others, to adjust this definition of the term "dispensationalism" if necessary.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

I appreciate the definition of Dispensationalism here, as I have been wondering about it lately. I was brought up with Dispensationalist thinking, so I really didn't know any differences. But lately, a well-versed brother on the radio, Steve Gregg, has been speaking about it quite a bit. When people call into his radio program and ask about things like the rapture or tribulation or the kingdom, he always goes into this rather lengthy discussion about how Dispensationalism has shaped most Christians view of things and he believes it to be an error. He says he used to be a Dispensationalist for a long time, but then saw differently in the word. His speakings on this topic are generally foreign to me, but it has caused me to be aware and consider my own Dispensationalist views some.

However, nothing I've heard or read has swayed me from still thinking mostly in Dispensationalist terms, that is, there will be an "hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth, then there will be rapture(s), and Jesus will return to set up His thousand year kingdom on earth, and His elect will rule and reign over the earth with Him.

[Ohio]

Dispensationalism definitely has value in the study of the Bible, but like anything, can be taken to extremes. Those who teach pre-trib rapture of the entire church are simply forced to shoehorn too many scriptures which indicate otherwise.

I first heard this from Hal Lindsey, who based this teaching solely on the absence of the word “church” after Revelations 3. While this speculative fulfillment of prophecy was quite appealing to us as immature Christians, the Bible never said as much.

Much of prophetic scripture concerning the believers during the end times seems to address us individually, rather than as a collective. Consider, “one is taken, one is left.” Israel, however, noting Daniel’s prophecies, often views the collective.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

However, nothing I've heard or read has swayed me from still thinking mostly in Dispensationalist terms, that is, there will be an "hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth, then there will be rapture(s), and Jesus will return to set up His thousand year kingdom on earth, and His elect will rule and reign over the earth with Him.

I still see validity in some amount of dispensational thinking, but I believe there is some error in it as well. I am significantly literal in my views and interpretation, but I can poke holes in a strict literal approach. I do think God has dealt with man under some "phases" of His administration, but I do not fully agree with how dispensationalists have handled what I call the "Audiences of God".

Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

I have thought quite a bit about how this type of mapping can work. For example, let's use one particular audience to think about the mapping process... Greece.

Genesis 10:2-5

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread out through their lands, each according to his own language by their own families, in their nations.

Greece comes from the 4th son of Japheth, Javan. Greece is part of the coastland peoples as denoted in Genesis 10:5 ("from these the coastland peoples spread out"). Historians and Bible scholars agree that the name "Javan" mutates to "Ion" (i.e. the Ionians) who are the peoples of Greece. Greece is a nation that has been known down through the ages up until the present time. They are also a culture (Hellenism) that has influenced many other cultures throughout the ages. The Greek culture and way of thinking is important in New Testament time as seen through Paul's writings (ex: 1 Cor 1:22 - Jews ask for sign miracles and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified).

Here are a few examples of references to Javan, Greece/Greeks and the coastlands. This is not a full list of references:

• Javan - see Isaiah 66:19 and Zechariah 9:13 (both of these were prophetic when spoken)
• Greece/Greeks - see Daniel 8:21, Joel 3:6, Romans 1:16
• part of "the coastlands" (Genesis 10:5) - see Isaiah 11:11, Isaiah 49:1, Ezekiel 26:18

If you review these examples, you will see that God is specifically targeting prophetic speaking to the Grecian/Greek "people grouping" established in the "table of nations" of Genesis 10. Some of God's targeted prophetic speaking HASN'T HAPPENED YET. So, how do we map God's speaking forward in time???

Methods of Mapping
1. Is it Future bloodline lineal descendants which may not be identifiable as a grouping in modern times?
2. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture with the same or changed name?
3. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture under the same spiritual dominion with the same OR different name?
4. Is it some combination of #1-#3

I know I cannot give a fully definitive answer and say it is only #1, #2 or #3 or even a combination (#4). I have seen passages that could work with any of these mappings. I have seen other passages where only one of these "methods of mapping" seems to make any sense. I do not presume to be able to resolve this challenge, but instead I hold the relevant scripture in my mind "loosely" as God's word that will be fulfilled exactly as it was said to "Audience of God" to whom He directed it.

I don't let my ideas of "dispensationalism" override the direct prophetic speaking of God even though I cannot fully comprehend the meaning of some of these prophetic speakings. The main point of sharing this in response to your comment about dispensationalism is to introduce the idea of the "Audiences of God" and that as I have read what The Author of these prophecies has said and the audiences that The Author uses I find that I rarely even consider the word "dispensation" or "dispensationalism". After a while, I realized that some of what I was learning sometimes cut through dispensational thinking. This doesn't destroy the idea dispensationalism. I have just learned to put "dispensational thinking" in it's place. It is a conceptualization of man (not God) about the truth of God's word and its application across the ages which may not hold up.

The ("I don't think there is a resurrection") Saduccees found out about how their reasoning and conceptualization of the topic of resurrection held up when they spoke to The Author.

Matthew 22:29

But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God!

I know it may not seem relevant to focus on the "Audiences of God" in prophecy, but when we change our example from Javan/Ionian/Greece (or Greek) to the people groupings in Israel it becomes very interesting. When I started reading the Bible with the "Audiences of God" and further understanding these audiences, the entire history of Israel changed in my understanding. As my understanding changed, so did my interpretation of some End Times prophecies.

Matt

p.s. next comes the rapture...

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

...Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

To make sure I understand what you're saying, before you can properly understand what someone says in any speaking, you need to know who the speaker was addressing. Especially when interpreting the scripture itself in relation to prophecy. For example, a father speaking a message to his daughters vs. a father speaking the identical message to his daughters' boyfriends.

Additionally, that father might use words differently while maintaining the same intended message.

We have all experienced, often with great frustration, the way Witness Lee and the Local Church leadership have used words differently, without paying attention to the integrity of the message of the message/s in the scriptures..

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

Would an example of this "disconnect" be the verses that say things "surely I come quickly" when thousands of years have passed and He has not returned. Or, with the phrase "I come" his coming may have more than one manifestation or "definition". That is, this type of similar admonitions were spoken in different contexts, or to different groups.

Another example would be whether the OT prophets were speaking to Gentiles or to Jews. "Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Nell

"Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Some Audiences related to Israel: Jacob, Israel, Judah (Jehudi/Jew), Ephraim, House of God/Yahweh, House of Jacob, House of Israel, children of Israel, House of Judah, House of Levi, House of Joseph

There is a lot of intricacy here in the names which is very relevant to interpreting prophecies of the Old Testament. It is helpful (but not always critical) to understand the name reference (i.e. House of Judah, House of Israel) at the time it was spoken and who the name reference is pointing to for future fulfillment.

This subject moves into the topic of "Who is Israel?". Most christians lump everything into one name, "Israel" and then think in terms of "Israel" versus the "Church".

Using your example of "Jew", it comes from Jehudi which comes from Judah or the Southern Kingdom (aka House of Judah). Judah is a single tribe which rises to preeminence in Israel by the time of David. Judah WAS NOT preeminent before the time of David. Ephraim was the preeminent tribe. Ephraim bore the title of House of Israel at multiple stages in the history of Israel. House of Israel is an overarching title that still has relevance today beyond what most people think of when they say "Israel". I have multiple scriptural proofs of the preeminence of Ephraim until the time of David which can be reviewed as needed. Ephraim's standing as the preeminent tribe in Israel starts in Genesis 49 and goes all the way into the time of Samuel. Here is one passage that helps to understand both the preeminence of Ephraim and the transition to Judah in the time of David. It is from Psalm 78 that reviews some of the history of Israel up to the point the Psalm was written. Even after this point, Ephraim is distinctly spoken to prophetically in ways that could only apply to the future (at or after Jesus Christ's first coming). If you sum it all up and think of all the various references as "Israel", then you miss a lot.

Psalm 78:56–60 (LEB)
56 But they tested and rebelled against God Most High and did not keep his statutes. 57 And they turned and were treacherous like their ancestors. They twisted like a crooked bow. 58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and made him jealous with their images. 59 God heard and he was very angry and rejected Israel utterly. 60 So he abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh, the tent he had placed among humankind. ... 67 And he rejected the tent of Joseph, and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 but chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion that he loved.

There is quite a bit more intricacy here if you trace the title "House of Israel" through the course of Old Testament history. The ownership of this title moves around as their history progresses.

For now, I will leave this with a few questions (with answers) to consider. When we say, "Jew" does that mean ALL of Israel? (No, it doesn't.) When we say "Israelite" does this cover ALL Jews? (Yes, it does.) Are their other "Israelites" that are NOT "Jews"? (Yes, there are.)

This isn't just an exercise in name research. It has direct bearing on End Times prophecy. I'm going to stick with going over the rapture next, but your comment provoked a preview related to "Who Is Israel?".

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 1

Here are some options for the timing and audience of the rapture that I have heard, read or envisioned over the years. In my mind, each of these views has a different ranking or weighting of likelihood. For example, most pre-tribulational rapture proponents will emphasize that it is not in the nature of God to put the church through the events of the Great Tribulation. They also point at key portions of the Word as support.

Having gone through this exercise for each variation of interpretation from multiple perspectives, I can pretty confidently say that there is no way to come to a definitive conclusion and remain intellectually honest. I know that some people think they can, but under the scrutiny of testing I don't think any view really holds up. Over the years, I attempted to take up each view in my mind (and through notes) to see if there was any view that I could support without also being able to poke holes in it. I haven't found any view that can legitimately survive attempts to poke holes in them.

As background, I think it is worth mentioning that most people on this forum will fit into the "dispensational pre-millenial" view, but there are also "historical premillenialists", "amillenialists" and "post-millenialists". I'm not trying to chase all these views, just sharing that there are entirely different approaches to the key End Times events that can alter how you handle the Word of God. I'm sticking with more of a "dispensational pre-millenial" view which basically just says that Jesus Christ will "literally" return for the second time before we enter the time of the Millenial Kingdom.

For the rapture, here are some of the views I have entertained in review of this topic over a number of years. The complexity of all of these views against the whole of scripture has made my head spin. I haven't spent unending hours of analysis trying to figure it out. I've had help and with some insights from God, I have verified what I have seen against scripture. Even after doing this, I still hold my current understanding "loosely" because of the speculative nature of this topic.

TIMING:
For a one-time, singular fulfillment of the rapture:

• Pre-trib - the whole "church" before the start of the Great Tribulation (I have defined this as 3.5 years) or 7-year period since others define the Great Tribulation as 7 years.
• Mid-trib - the whole "church" near or at the middle of the Great Tribulation (this fits better with a 7-year view of Great Tribulation)
• Pre-wrath - the whole "church" before God's wrath is poured out
• Out of the Midst of Wrath - the whole "church" out of the midst of God's wrath being poured out
• Post-wrath - the whole "church" after God's wrath is poured out

Some of these timings may seem implausible. Especially, "out of the midst of wrath" and "post-wrath". When we start to review all the text, you may be surprised that at least one of these two is not implausible.

For a multiple occurrence fulfillment of the rapture:

• Multiple fulfillments of rapture for portions of the "saints" (pre-, mid-, etc). I am not equating "saints" with the whole church.
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity with multiple fulfillments of rapture mixed in as well

These are the main ones I know, does anyone have any more?

AUDIENCE (OR TARGET) OF RAPTURE:
You don't have to pick just one item from this list. It could be a combination of items.

• Some (mature, overcomers, etc) or All of the Church
• Tribulation Saints (if they exist as a distinct grouping under a different dispensation)
• Some or All of Old Testament Saints - I tossed this one in just to move "outside the box" in thinking about this subject. Will all the Old Testament ones that God has credited with faith wait for the end of the Millenial Kingdom to be raised from the dead?

In general, figuring out the audience of the rapture gets hard right away. Even if we narrow our thoughts to just the Church, We do not know when membership in the Church stops. We assume things about this topic. Assuming that the total membership in the Church starts with Jesus' death and resurrection and ends at another point in time, we can look at the POSSIBLE timing and end point of membership in the Church. Said another way, we do not know when the "dispensation of grace through Jesus Christ" ends and another dispensation begins. Here are some options.

1. Assuming a pre-tribulational rapture of all members of the Church then this could be the endpoint
2. If the rapture happens later - the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14:6) could be the endpoint
3. If the rapture happens later - Armageddon/Christ's Second Coming could be the endpoint

There may be some other endpoint options, but these three seem to be most plausible.

Sorry to be so analytical with all these categorizations and interpretive options, but this topic is a mine field that kind of requires doing this to try to bring some foundations before proceeding. Next, I am going to start introducing key text from the Bible related to the rapture. If I miss some references that anyone thinks are important, please add them in.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Here is my perspective on the rapture/ 2nd coming of Christ. Part 1

All true believers will be raptured regardless of their maturity. The key phrase is TRUE BELIEVERS. Babies, children, mentally handicapped people will also be raptured. I also believe most if not all animals will also be rescued. I base this belief about animals on God’s love for them. There were a lot more animals in the ark than people.

The Lord’s return is in 2 major stages. I do believe there will be other raptures after the big one.

My case for the rapture are patterns.

Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. Everyone else was “left behind”. There is no evidence of people witnessing the Lord taking him. But God’s Word states it twice. 1) Genesis. 2) Hebrews

Then there is Elijah. He knew he was going to be raptured as did Elisha and the prophets following them. There were many witnesses to Elijah’s rapture.
2 KINGS chapter 2. A chariot with horses picked up Elijah proving there are animals in heaven.

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Boy oh boy…how to begin.

Ok I will start with 1 Corinthians 15:52-53. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump, the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible, The corruptible will put on incorruptiion, the mortal->immortality. We will all be changed

Next
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The Lord will descend with a shout, with the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of God. The dead will rise first, the we who are alive AND REMAIN will be caught up with them in the clouds and meet the Lord in the Air.

Next:
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened. Then many bodies of the saints that slept arose. They came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the city and appeared to many.

The scriptures don’t say what became of the risen saints but I personally believe when Jesus ascended, they did too. Otherwise how could these people who saw them and most likely spoke with them, truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus had they died again? Not everyone saw Jesus ascend after all.

So here is my proposal:

I think it is very possible that when the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive AND REMAIN, will witness to many people just as the resurrected saints did after Jesus resurrected. We will be here a short time, perhaps 10 days, maybe a bit longer IN OUR PERFECT GLORIFIED BODIES. For we will have been changed in the twinkling of an eye. No more corruptible body, no more mortal body. Truly “no weapon formed against us will prosper”. Then just as Elijah passed “the baton” to Elisha, we will pass the baton to (drumroll) the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Could it be Elijah is a picture of the true believers being caught up and Elisha receiving the double portion of Elijah’s spirit are the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel?

If we consider what the angel said in Revelation 7 to the 4 other angels, I think it could very well be that the reason the command for them not to hurt the earth, the sea, the trees until the 144K are sealed with the Seal of God on their foreheads, is they had to wait for us to “pass the baton” to them, and THEN we WHO REMAINED for a short while are raptured.

I know this line of thinking is far fetched but also consider the book of Acts especially before Paul came into the scene…the Boldness, the miracles, even Phillip being caught up by the Spirit was found in Azotus after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch who was reading from Isaiah regarding Jesus. As soon as they came out of the water the Ethiopian never saw Phillip again. And Phillip was immediately found in the city of Azotus (Acts chapter 8:26-40)

I leave you with John 14:12
Verily, verily I say unto you. He who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do. And greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father.

This is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT! I am following a Bible study on Revelation. I have had a lot of questions on the book..still do but one thing I am truly convinced now, is Revelation is not written in chronological order, that is from left to right.

When we consider that we don’t learn about Lucifer’s fall from heaven until Isaiah 14 and not Genesis 1, it’s not too far fetched for me to think outside the box, that Revelation is not written in chronological and how the rapture may occur.

Peace in Christ Jesus everyone!
Carol

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

...This is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT! I am following a Bible study on Revelation. I have had a lot of questions on the book..still do but one thing I am truly convinced now, is Revelation is not written in chronological order, that is from left to right.
Carol

Well, Carol, in this point--at least for Rev. 16, Matt agrees with you! See Matt's Post #164 . I've also read other authors who note the same thing in an outline of Revelation with "parenthetical" chapters.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

...The challenge with the seven bowls in Revelation 16 is that this chapter is not set in sequential order in the Book of Revelation.

I believe Revelation is structured as follows:
Chapter 1-3 - Introduction & Seven Churches
Chapter 4-11 - Main sequential narrative starting before the Great Tribulation (3.5 years) all the way to the end of the Great Tribulation, God's Wrath. I believe the change over to the Millenial Kingdom is minimally referenced at the end of Chapter 11.
Chapter 12-19 - Expanded Descriptions (or Appendices) which elaborate on the main characters and events of the sequential narrative from Chapter 4-11
Chapter 20-22 - Continuance of Main sequential narrative including Satan's imprisonmnent, the Millenial Kingdom through to the New Heaven/Earth, New Jerusalem, etc.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Next:
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened. Then many bodies of the saints that slept arose. They came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the city and appeared to many.

The scriptures don’t say what became of the risen saints but I personally believe when Jesus ascended, they did too. Otherwise how could these people who saw them and most likely spoke with them, truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus had they died again? Not everyone saw Jesus ascend after all.

I think these verses are often overlooked when thinking about rapture. I think they do set some context, but I don't think they specifically address rapture. I have felt that they are part of the fulfillment of the "feasts of the Lord". The connection between Christ's 1st and 2nd coming and the "feasts of the Lord" was something I read from someone years ago. I think there is a strong connection. The OT presents 7 feasts. Four feasts in the spring time. Three feasts in the fall.

Based on the New Testament authors, the 4 spring feasts appear to be exactly fulfilled by the events of Jesus' death, resurrection and giving of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. I think the three fall feasts (trumpets, day of atonement, tabernacles/booths) foreshadow things about Jesus' second coming. In the spring, the 3rd feast is the "feast of firstfruits". I think that Jesus was the firstfruit (being resurrected from the dead first) and I think these ones seen in Jerusalem were also firstfruits. (I think it is important to note that the dead seen in Jerusalem were from the Old Testament age and yet they were resurrected in some fashion either temporarily or for transport to a new location).

I also agree with you that it is seems they probably ascended with Jesus to heaven. I am guessing that the good part of "paradise" moved from the heart of the earth to somewhere in heaven until the time of Jesus' second coming. This is my conjecture, but it is what I have come to lean towards in my thinking.

For several of your other verse references, I will be bringing them in my next post(s) and sharing my thoughts on them.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I also agree with you that it is seems they probably ascended with Jesus to heaven. I am guessing that the good part of "paradise" moved from the heart of the earth to somewhere in heaven until the time of Jesus' second coming. This is my conjecture, but it is what I have come to lean towards in my thinking.

I also agree.

Years ago when Dr. Phil Comfort ministered in Columbus, I asked him about this. Remember that PC was basically humiliated and expelled by TC for being a "pure wordist," and "too independent, too theoretical, void of reality," rather than the typical ministry lackey. None of us in the church thought so, but who were we to oppose the "apostle" in Cleveland.

Phil's comment was, "the weight of Christian authorship supports this view." Of course, that view was contradictory to WL's teaching, hence suspect. Comfort used Ephesians 4.8 (quoting Psalms 68) as support.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Too funny!

Go for it! We're all just presenting our views. No firing squads here!

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 2

Here are all the passages I have identified that address specific and important aspects of the rapture. I think there may be a few foreshadowings in the Old Testament as well, but first the New Testament passages.

Rather than trying to explain all the different scenarios I mentioned in my part 1 post and how they fit or don't fit all the scripture, I want to start by sharing a "Worst Case Scenario". This "Worst Case Scenario" doesn't completely rule out all other options, but I think it is a good baseline. Once I have it laid out, then we can start looking at the better scenarios and see if they hold up as well as this "Worst Case Scenario"

I am going to say "church age believers" whenever I am referring specifically to members of the Church. If I say "saints", then I am including the possibility of believers who may be what others call "tribulation saints" as well as "church age believers". If you believe that the church is totally raptured before the start of the Great Tribulation then you don't agree that "saints" = "church age believers" + "tribulation saints". You believe "church age believers" are gone and there are only "tribulation saints". I am clear that I can poke a big hole of doubt in this interpretation, but this does not mean that I am totally convinced there is no possibility of a pre-tribulational rapture of all the "church age believers". Based on what I am about to share, the likelihood of a pre-tribulational rapture has moved down to one of the LEAST LIKELY possibilities, but this doesn't mean it can't happen. (Note: I surely prefer a pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church, but intellectually honest study of the Word has not allowed me to take up that position as reliable.)

Key Passages (in biblical order)

• Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect")
• Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion)
• Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready)
• 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet)
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath)
• 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo)
• 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night)
• 2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief)
• Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference)
• Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial")
• Revelation 16:15-16

Here are some comments based on these verses that relate to the subject of Rapture...

To some extent, Matthew 24 links Jesus' second coming with "like a thief". Verse 30 shows Jesus appearing in the sky where everyone sees it. If you keep reading it is a continuous theme related to His second coming and verses 42-44 use the picture of a thief coming.

To a significant extent, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2 link Jesus' second coming, the rapture and "like a thief" to be at or near the same time (not years apart). If you read starting in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 all the way to at least 5:2 you can see the linkage between "coming like a thief" and the rapture.

I'm not trying to say that these linkages (between 2nd coming, "like a thief", and the rapture) are completely definitive from an analytical point of view. However, when you see correlating references to trumpets and "like a thief" with both rapture and Jesus' second coming and then you read Revelation 16:15 the main issue left is how to resolve what the Word says about being "delivered from the coming wrath" (1 Th 1:10). Additionally, there isn't anything that helps you separate them to two different events at two different time frames.

Here are some key points I think are worth considering.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to Great Tribulation & God's Wrath

• church age believers are not appointed or "destined" for wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), while non-believers are (multiple verses)
• saints are delivered from (gk. apo/s575 or gk. ek/s1537), depending on the source manuscript) the coming wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) - these two tiny greek prepositions (apo and ek) play an important role in some of what I will share.
• the "Great Tribulation" seems to be referred to synonymously as the "hour of trial" that comes to the whole earth
• there no verses that equate "Great Tribulation" with "God's wrath".
• there are verses that appear to separate "Great Tribulation" from "God's wrath" (close reading and collation of Joel 2:10-11 & Matthew 24:30-31) show "God's wrath" coming just after "Great Tribulation"
• there are no verses that state that the church age believers will not experience the "Great Tribulation". People assume this based on the pre-tribulational rapture teaching.
• In my opinion, there is no valid argument which asserts that God's nature or the salvation of Jesus Christ precludes church age believer's from enduring tremendous suffering (up to and including martyrdom). One of God's main goals from this age is to bring each believer to full maturity in Christ and this can include tremendous suffering. The Bible and history bear this out.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to "Coming Like a Thief"

• If you start reading in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and continue through to 1 Thessalonians 5:2, I believe "Coming Like a Thief" is directly connected to the Rapture event.
• Revelation 16:15 places the time of "coming like a thief" between the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath. As mentioned in a previous post, I believe the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet happen at almost the same time.
• Revelation 3:3 places church age believers (from Sardis) in the position of being surprised by Jesus "coming like a thief" if they are not alert. How is this possible if all church age believers have been raptured?
• All verses talking about "like a thief" are clear that the experience of being surprised (as a thief in the night) only applies to those who are NOT READY and NOT WATCHING. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is clear, "but you, brothers, are not in the darkness, so that the day should catch you like a thief".
• Even though Jesus does not suprise those who are READY and ALERT like a thief would, the verses still indicate that the "day and the hour" are unknown and unexpected so there is still some element of surprise possible.

Additional Key Points

• Revelation 3:10 indicates church age believers (from Philadelphia) will be kept from the "hour of trial" that will affect the whole earth. This is 1 of 7 church age churches. What about the rest? If you think about Sardis, Jesus can only come to them "like a thief" if they are present up until the time Jesus comes "like a thief" in Revelation 16:15 between the 6th and 7th bowl
• there are three separate references to trumpets (Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and they connect to BOTH his second coming and the rapture. Two of them are specific to rapture (1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16) and 1 Cor 15:52 anchors the time to the LAST trumpet. I tend to believe that all these trumpet references are referring to the SAME trumpet event which is the last trumpet (i.e. seventh trumpet of Revelation) and happens at about the same time as the seventh bowl of wrath.
• Saying that we do not know the "day or the hour" does not say we cannot know the year or the month. I believe that the last 3.5 years are a set amount of time. We will know when it starts (pretty closely, but maybe not exactly), so we will be able to know it is 3.5 years later giving us a year and a month. Knowing the year and/or month does not violate any scripture.

At this point, you may think I am violating the logic of my own points. Specifically, I've said that the church age believers are not appointed (destined) for wrath and that the saints are delivered from (apo or ek) wrath. How can I turn around and then place ANY of the saints on the earth during the bowls of wrath.

Let's look closely at the two primary verses that define the relationship of the saints to God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to await his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, the one who delivers us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

The Bible is absolutely clear that the target of wrath is not the saints. This does not preclude the possibility of the saints being on some part of the earth during SOME of the bowls of wrath. The verse is 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says "delivers us FROM the coming wrath". In most manuscripts, the greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537) is used, but in some manuscripts the greek word "apo" (Strong's 575) is used. I have done some laborious study on both of these and have found a greek scholar that tried to determine if "apo" or "ek" was the correct word. He believes it is "ek", but leaves room that a 100% definitive conclusion cannot be made.

"ek" means "out of" or "away from", but the Strong's entry starts with this information. "Ek" is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;.

This definition leaves the interpretation of the meaning of this verse entirely open to the saints being present on the earth even after God starts pouring out the bowls of wrath.

So, I don't believe I am violating the logic of my own points and in this "Worst Case Scenario" some members of the church (i.e. church age believers) could be present on the earth up until just before Armegeddon.

This is my least favorite view of the Rapture, but applying as much intellectual honesty as I can it is the one that fits the totality of Scripture the best. Again, this does not mean that other possibilities are precluded. God is all-powerful and can do what He wants. He could plan for a "secret" rapture of some at a different point and not record it in Scripture in a way that it is interpretable by men's mind. He could plan for some kind of progressive rapture.

The main point of this post is to put forward a view that tears down the "pre-tribulational" rapture as the foregone conclusion. I'm also putting forward a whole new perspective that I haven't seen many look at. In the end, my goal is not to have a new view that I claim is correct. My goal is to encourage everyone to talk to the Lord and ask Him for revelation as it is needed to navigate in the time of His Second Coming.

[Nell]

Key Passages (in biblical order)
Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect")
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion)
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready)
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night)
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial")
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[Timotheist]

I have mentioned this before on this thread. Darby and his cohorts saw support for a pre-trib rapture in two passages:

1) open advent vs coming as a thief. Matt pointed out, like I did, that Paul considered these two phrases to be coincident: in the "day" for those who are waiting, but in the "night" for those who are in "darkness"

2) "Alive and remain". The word 'and' is added to many of the English translations. Reading the passage in its context, Paul is referring to two groups of people, not three: those who have died, and those who are "still alive" (Timotheist's translation) at the coming of the Lord.

A mysteriously veiled third group, those who were raptured before the second coming, would have caused Paul to write this paragraph very differently, and we would no longer comfort each other if people died and missed the pre-trib rapture:

"Regarding those who have passed away, try to take comfort in the fact that, while they missed out on the first rapture, they will be ahead of the second."

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 3 (last part)

In my last post, I took up one view of the rapture (Out of the Midst of Wrath). Here is how I see the other views (note: the 2nd most likely view is pre-wrath and I can see how it could fit scripture).

There are two main difficulties in accepting other views as reliable.
1. We are to be changed and caught up at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET (1 Cor 15:52). This seems like a definitive time marker which seems to conceptually and literally connect with the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation.
2. Jesus' "coming like a thief" is pronounced clearly, loudly and specifically between the 6th and 7th bowl in Revelation 16:15. Given the connection I see between "coming like a thief" and Jesus' Second Coming, I don't know how any other view can work.

Someone will have to convince me with some text from the Word that "coming like a thief" could happen twice and be a second event that happens earlier than Revelation 16:15.

Again, I do not preclude the power of God nor His ability to share some obscure references that I don't see in Scripture. I have seen some obscure references applied to Jesus' first coming in the New Testament.

Lastly, I don't want my current view to be correct. I really don't, but I see danger for all believers in holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint too strongly. I feel that the pre-tribulational rapture view has lead to a great sleepiness and dullness in the broader church. Many listen to the End Times events with the general idea of "Oh, that is for those other people, I won't be here".

Personally, I have concluded that EVEN IF the pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church turns out to be what happens, it is still unsound doctrine at this time for believers. Teaching it as the ONLY POSSIBILITY to believers given the UNCERTAINTY in the Word of God is a great disservice to their maturing in Christ. It is scary to think about being in the Great Tribulation, but I know that times of fear in my life have led to some of the greatest times of maturing in the Lord. I have to learn how to process my fear and come to a place of faith and surety in Christ alone. This is a matter of my heart and learning to trust Him more fully in everything.

From my review of many current christian teachers, it seems that almost all of them are exclusively teaching pre-tribulational rapture as the only valid view. What happens when we begin to realize that the last 7 years have started or the last 3.5 years and the church is still present on the earth? Will this be part of what helps cause or increase a "great falling away" from the faith? Will the faith that congregants have placed in their teachers, pastors and/or leaders be destroyed? For all of those christians who have not set the anchor of their heart on Jesus Christ be lost at sea?

Even if you do not agree with my current view, consider what is healthy doctrine? Is it healthy to lock in on the pre-tribulational rapture as the ONLY possibility? If it is not, then consider the real possibility that the church could be here during the Great Tribulation and process through this in your heart with the Lord.

Yes, I know... A bit of preachiness at the end of this part about the rapture. I have been very concerned that the church is under massive deception on this topic and that almost the entire realm of well-known christian teachers are unknowingly collaborating with the Enemy to spread this deception. The deception I refer to is teach the pre-tribulational rapture as the ONLY legitimate possibility.

Matt

P.S. There is one major foundational argument that most christian teachers use to convince people of pre-tribulational rapture. They say that after Chapter 3 of Revelation we no longer see the "church" (i.e. gk ekklessia) mentioned in the text of Revelation and that the twelve tribes of Israel are the only thing referenced. To them, this means the church is no longer present and the target of Great Tribulation is "Israel" and other non-believers on the earth. I will take up this issue with my last set of posts on End Times prophecy regarding "Who is Israel?"

[Matt Anderson]

The Israel of God - part 1

The last thing that has significantly altered my understanding of End Times prophecy is "Who is Israel?". I am going to try to share some of the understanding that I have gained about the "Israel of God". This means the "Israel" that God has defined by His creative actions and choices.

Galatians 6:16

And all those who follow this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God.

I believe Paul understood something about the "Israel of God" that went beyond the definition that many of us use when we think about the name "Israel".

Romans 9:6-7

6 But it is not as if the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are descendants of Abraham, but “In Isaac will your descendants be named.”

In summary, this tells us that the scope of true "Israel" is bigger than lineal descendants of Israel. It also tells us that it is not about lineal descending from Abraham, but named according to Isaac (this is not just a lineal descendants, but of faith which includes us as adopted children). Prior to this verse, Paul has already clarified that our inclusion by faith makes us children of Abraham and that this establishes us as part of "many nations" descending from Abraham.

Romans 4:16-17

16 Because of this, it is by faith, in order that it may be according to grace, so that the promise may be secure to all the descendants, not only to those of the law, but also to those of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (just as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”) before God, in whom he believed, the one who makes the dead alive and who calls the things that are not as though they are

Just these few verses help expand the scope of the name/title "Israel" to be broader than lineal descendants from Old Testament Israel.

We have been trained by dispensational ideas to think in terms of "Israel" vs. the "Church". This thinking is off, BUT... The real picture is pretty intricate. I want to lay out a series of key verses from the Old Testament to rewrite some of the history of Israel. This rewritten history doesn't get rid of things you already know, but it expands our understanding.

Before I go down this path, I want to address the idea of "replacement theology" which basically says that all the promises to OT Israel have been transferred to the Church. I believe this is incorrect, but some of what I will share might cause you to think I am moving in that direction. I'm not.

To help understand why I think this topic is important to End Times prophecies, I will start with a direct assertion. Israel is comprised of multiple sub-groupings. I am pretty sure all of these sub-groupings are relevant up to the End Times and some of the prophecies (good and bad ones) are pointed directly at the Church through at least one of the audiences in the Old Testament USING SOME of the references to Israel.

Here are some major sub-groupings (there are more smaller sub-groupings)

• Houses - House of Jacob, House of Israel, House of Judah, House of Joseph -- A "house" contains natural born children, adopted children and even sometimes the servants in a "house".
• Children/Sons of Israel -- refers to lineal descendants (i.e. blood-line children)
• Individuals that sometimes point at sub-groupings - Judah, Joseph, Ephraim, Manasseh

These audiences of God's speaking overlap in some cases. When it comes to the label "Israel" it is important to remember that it is a name that is placed by Gods's election / choosing. No one in the Old Testament was born with the name "Israel". Think of it as a title. It is a title that moves around during the history of Israel. It's movement is under the hand of God. Let's look at some of these moves.

#1 - (Genesis 32:22-32) Jacob wrestles with God and is BLESSED (v29) with the name Israel. The title Israel is bestowed for the first time.
#2 - (Genesis 35:9-11) God visits Jacob again. Jacob's name change is finalized and the BLESSING is expanded. The blessing on Abraham is passed to the title Israel (v10 says "Then his name was called Israel") and then he is blessed in verses 11 & 12.

Genesis 35:11-12

11 Be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall be from you, and kings shall go out from your loins. 12 And as for the land that I gave to Abraham and to Isaac, I will give it to you. And to your descendants after you I will give the land.

#3 - (Genesis 48:3-6) The title of Israel passes to Ephraim by means of adoption. This is not my interpretation. God confirms this action as an adoption with great signficicance. See Jeremiah 31:9b ("for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.")

Genesis 48:3-6

3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, “El-Shaddai appeared to me in Luz, in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, 4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and make you numerous, and will make you a company of nations. And I will give this land to your offspring after you as an everlasting possession.’ 5 And now, your two sons who were born to you in the land of Egypt before my coming to you in Egypt, are mine. Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine as Reuben and Simeon are. 6 And your children whom you father after them shall be yours. By the name of their brothers they shall be called, with respect to their inheritance.

• v3-4 are Jacob's remembrance of #2 - Genesis 35:9-11. He tells Joseph about God's blessing on Him which was transferred to Him from Abraham by God. Abraham did not transfer the blessing. God did. During the transfer, God applies the blessing to the title Israel.
• v5 shows Jacob adopting Ephraim (2nd born of Joseph) in place of Reuben (1st born of Jacob) and adopting Manasseh (1st born of Joseph) in place of Simeon. Reuben and Simeon are replaced because of Jacob's displeasure with them. Reuben sleeps with Jacob's concubine. Simeon participates in killing people from the town where Dinah's rapist came from.
• v6 makes it very clear that Jacob has taken Joseph's two sons as his own. He calls them "mine" and then tells Joseph any other children that Joseph has are Joseph's.

I am going to stop here and call this "part 1". I know that everyone knows about Judah because he is part of the blood line of Jesus, but are you familiar with the fact that Ephraim inherited the title of Israel at this point in Genesis and became the FIRSTBORN OF ISRAEL BY ADOPTION? If not, what I am sharing will rewrite your understanding of Old Testament history and begin to point towards what I have to say about how this could affect our understanding of End Times prophecies. Again, what you know of Judah and Jesus as the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" won't change. I am just adding more and bringing out the importance of understanding some of the sub-groupings in Israel. Understanding these audiences (sub-groupings) in Israel becomes important when we read the prophetic speaking from God that is pointed at the End Times.

Matt

[Nell]

I was curious to know what Witness Lee had to say about the question "Who is Israel"? Though it doesn't answer my question, I did find this:
From Witness Lee's POV as expressed in his Life Study of Romans, #22

“Not, however, as though the word of God has come to naught. For not all are Israel who are out of Israel” (v. 6). In verse 3, Paul prayed out of his desire for his kinsmen to be saved. As he came to verse 6 he spoke of God's economy. In verse 3 he uttered a prayer out of his desperation, even willing to be “a curse, separated from Christ.” In verse 6 he said, “Not all are Israel who are out of Israel.” God's economy is that not all who are out of Israel, that is, all who are born of Israel, are the true Israel. All Jews have been born of Israel, but not all of them have been selected by God. All of them are of the Jewish religion, but not all are saved even though outwardly they have all the good things, including Christ, promised by God in His Holy Word."

Provided under the auspices of the Fair Use Doctrine. You will have to read the rest on your own. However, I haven't found anything that goes beyond these comments. Interestingly, of the 69 messages, Lee doesn't give us the usual scriptural reference at the beginning of the "message"...so digging around for more will take some time. From what I've read so far, Lee doesn't distinguish between/among the scriptural titles in the Bible, i.e., the question "who is Israel"?

From LSM:

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Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.
Your IP address is xxx.xxx.112.105 [4:55:45 AM (GMT -08:00), April 18, 2022].

I will also provide this very interesting, unrelated, off-topic, quote from the Romans 59 message:

In the church life we must be general, able to receive all genuine believers. However, it is not easy to learn this lesson, because we all want others to be the same as we are. Let us not make demands of others or require that they change their way for our sake. Rather, let us have unity in variety and variety without conformity. Even though there may be such variety, we still are one in Christ ---Witness Lee.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Nell,

It is interesting that almost no christian authors/teachers think any differently than "Israel" vs. "the Church". It seems that this VERSUS relationship was established long ago and became the presumptive understanding of almost everyone.

I held this same presumption for a very long time. I put on the glasses of "Israel" vs. "the Church" before I read the Bible. The only way I had a different thought was from an experience of revelation from the Lord. Without sharing the whole story, I will simply convey that God brought me to a verse in Genesis (48:19) that I will share more about in the next part of what I am sharing about the "Israel of God".

Genesis 48:19-20

But his father refused and said, “I know, my son; I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but his younger brother shall be greater than him, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying,

Through you Israel shall pronounce blessing, saying,
‘May God make you like Ephraim and like Manasseh.’”

So he put Ephraim before Manasseh.

When God first showed me this verse, I had not even understood that Jacob had just adopted Ephraim as his firstborn son and Manasseh as his second born son. I was just taken back by the statement "his offspring shall become a multitude of nations" referring to Ephraim. I thought, WHAT?!? Who is this Ephraim and what is this "multitude of nations"?

Given this one verse (which functioned like a key), I began to unlock the Old Testament in a way I never expected. I had no idea there was any connection to End Times prophecies. I wasn't studying the End Times when God brought me to this verse. It was just an isolated verse that caught me by surprise.

In summary, the idea of "Israel" vs. "the Church" is extremely hardened in our thinking based on presumption. It is presumption that doesn't seem to have any malice or intention in it. I don't think it is a correct way to view the Bible. There are distinctions between what most people think of as Israel and the Church, but I believe you have to significantly alter your understanding of the word "Israel" and understand it as a collection of audiences that have different pathways to the end of this age. For now, think of it very simply. There are twelve children of Jacob/Israel which become twelve tribes of Israel. Each of these children/tribes have different "blessings" bestowed by Jacob (Gen 49) and Moses (Deut 33). Think of these blessings as "prophecies" (future truth about these families in Israel). So, there are AT LEAST 12 different outcomes inside of Israel as a whole. By my count, there are at least 18 outcomes based prophetic speaking to the various sub-groupings in Israel. Some of these 18 apply across multiple families (i.e. tribes) while at least one of the sub-groupings seems to point at a single, significant individual from Israel.

More later...

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Btw, in Revelation 7, Dan son of Jacob is not mentioned. He is replaced by Manasseh, Joseph’s son.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Btw, in Revelation 7, Dan son of Jacob is not mentioned. He is replaced by Manasseh, Joseph’s son.

Additionally, the "tribe of Joseph" is also mentioned instead of Ephraim. It is not clear if this is synonymous (Joseph == Ephraim) or if Ephraim is not mentioned for another reason. In Genesis 48, just after Jacob claims Ephraim and Manasseh has his own there is an interesting verse.

I have assumed (maybe erroneously) that the tribe of Joseph is used here as a reference to the tribe of Ephraim.

Genesis 48:5-6

5*And now, your two sons who were born to you in the land of Egypt before my coming to you in Egypt, are mine. Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine as Reuben and Simeon are. 6 And your children whom you father after them shall be yours. By the name of their brothers they shall be called, with respect to their inheritance.

He is basically saying that any other lineal descendants of Joseph would be Joseph's, but what does "By the name of their brothers they shall be called, with respect to their inheritance" mean? It sounds like other descendants of Joseph would be Joseph's children (not adopted), but they would share the inheritance of Ephraim and Manasseh.

We don't know of any other children of Joseph recorded in the Bible, but it seems they would fall under Ephraim and/or Manasseh for future generations (at least from an inheritance perspective which is a lot). This seems to exclude the need for a "tribe of Joseph" to be mentioned as a separate audience from Ephraim or Manasseh.

I look at all of these excruciating details primarily for understanding audiences and prophetic speaking in the Bible. They are very fine-grained and can be difficult to sort out, but in my head I am predisposed to deal with all these little details.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

The Israel of God - part 2

Reviewing the History of Israel with a "new" lens (i.e. perspective or point of view) we find that there are TWO streams flowing down through the history of Israel that have relevance all the way to this day and age. There are many verses that come to play in establishing this "new" lens. In many cases, you will have read various verses I will reference. I am going to bring special attention to considering the specific audiences referenced or identified in various verses.

I am going to start with the verses that I think most clearly define and distinguish the two major audiences that affect your understanding of the title Israel. These two audiences are not the ONLY audiences. They are just the two most important ones.

Please keep an open mind. Most have already resolved some of the references I will provide to a particular conceptualization of who or what they refer to. Try to clear out any current ideas or assumptions you have about the verses I refer to and consider a new way of looking at them. I won't be able to quote all the passages I reference, but I encourage you to pause and read the references as you consider this post.

Ezekiel 37:15–22 (NASB95)

15 The word of the LORD came again to me saying, 16 “And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 “Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 18 “When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 “The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. 21 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

This is a prophecy pointed to the End Times. There are two sticks which represent two kingdoms which will be united into one kingdom in the hand of one who joins them in His hand. Let's look very closely at the two kingdoms.

Stick of Judah - Kingdom of Judah (Southern Kingdom)
FOR: Judah and the SONS of Israel, his companions

Stick of Joseph in Ephraim's Hand - Kingdom of Ephraim (Northern Kingdom)
FOR: Joseph and all the HOUSE of Israel, his companions

The stick of Judah refers to the SONS (S1121 - indicates children by birth) of Israel. This points more exclusively towards lineal descendants. This is a kingdom that still exists at the time of Ezekiel 37. They are in captivity, but they can still be seen as a nation of people.
The stick of Joseph in Ephraim's hand refers to the HOUSE (S1004 - indicates a household that contains a family) of Israel. This points to a potentially broader idea of a "house" that can contain natural born and adopted children. This is a kingdom that does not exist at the time of Ezekiel 37.

Let us further consider the exact timing of when this prophetic word is given. It is written while Judah (the southern kingdom plus a small remnant of the northern kingdom) is in captivity in Babylon. This has a major impact on our understanding. The Northern Kingdom (aka Israel or Ephraim) has already been destroyed and cast out by God by means of DIVORCE (Jeremiah 3:6-8; Hosea 1:4). The divorce of the Northern Kingdom made them OUTCAST rather than just DISPERSED/SCATTERED like the Southern Kingdom (See Isaiah 11:12).

So, here in Ezekiel 37:15-22, we have God speaking to the Northern Kingdom that DOES NOT EXIST as though they DO EXIST. This DIVORCE I am referring to was not partially executed against the Northern Kingdom. It was fully executed. This means that the Northern Kingdom fully lost its status with God. They were no longer His people (this is equivalent to saying they were no longer a spouse).

So, why is God speaking to a group of people who no longer belong to Him. It is bizarre, but it matches what God says in Hosea 1:8-11. Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9 and indicates that it points to us (i.e. christians).

Romans 9:23–26 (NASB95)

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’” 26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’ THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

So at the time of this prophetic word in Ezekiel 37, God is speaking to an audience that (at some level) does not exist anymore. God is going to interact with this audience under their DIVORCED status. Don't think I am crazy... . God says this himself in Isaiah 50:1-2 ("where is your mother's bill of divorcement) speaking to a future audience there as well.

So, there are two different kinds of audiences identified by Scripture that both have some level of association to the title "Israel". I believe these are best thought of as two separate sub-groupings in a single family. God prophetically indicates that these two sub-groupings (Judah and Ephraim) will exist right up to the very end of this age at which time they will be reunited.

Many people have referred to this in the following manner.
1. The Jews who are represented by those we see in modern day Israel plus the Jews who are still part of the diaspora (living outside of modern day Israel)
2. The 10 Lost Tribes of Israel who were "lost" when the Northern Kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrian empire and dispersed into various parts of the Assyrian empire.

I am proposing a new way of looking at these two sub-groupings.

1. Lineal descendants of Judah (aka Jews) and lineal descendants of the remnant of the Northern Kingdom that joined the Southern Kingdom when the Northern Kingdom was destroyed.
2. Lineal descendants of the Northern Kingdom that was carried away by the Assyrian Empire and other Gentiles who are grafted in to the "Israel of God" by way of Jesus Christ. These are those who are "called out of the world" (aka ekklessia) and it is not an exclusive grouping that includes more than just lineal descendants.

I have not attempted to replug the theological holes some may think I have opened up with this way of looking at these audiences. I have been looking at this for quite some time and I do not believe I have broken core theology of the Word of God. I am breaking some interpretations which are not core theology, but the best understanding of men. For example, this way of looking at these audiences affects most people's view of "dispensational theology". There are still some dispensations, but it reframes things.

Instead of "(A) Israel versus (B) the Church", it is "(A) the part of Israel which descends from Judah and whose hearts remain hardened until the time of reconciliation AND (B) the part of Israel which includes all those of the House of Israel who have been grafted in through Jesus Christ".

Next I will start laying out the scripture and history that paints this picture from the Word of God itself. I have already started to point at a few key references that Paul uses which match with this way of looking at the Israel of God.

Matt

[Nell]

Matt,

There was a time, early on, that Witness Lee taught something like "study the Bible--with the Bible." I remember this from "early on". This seems to be your approach as well...study the Bible with the Bible. Of course, Lee later abandoned his own advice.

It seems like one flaw with dispensational theology regarding the end times is that it does not incorporate the Old Testament context of the New Testament verses it cites as evidence of its dispensational perspective. That is, the "hidden in plain site" way that the New Testament teachings of Paul are validated in the Old Testament. Dispensationalism seems to ignore the Old Testament.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Israel of God - part 3

I am going to paint a brief picture which adds to what you already know. We all know that Jesus' bloodline ancestry goes through Judah. Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Bible records this lineage through its record of so-and-so begat so-and-so right down to Jesus.

What we need to add to this understanding to more fully see the Israel of God is that there is another path (or stream) through the history of the Bible that flows by election. When I say election, I mean the "choice of God". It is not a matter of blood line, but of God's choice (i.e. election). This additional path (or stream) has some additional complexity, but after seeing it in many places in scripture over the years I believe it is fully represented in scripture.

We have already seen in part 1 that Abraham and Jacob/Israel received something important by God's choice.

1. Abraham promised to be the father of MANY NATIONS. This was a matter of the choice of God and not because of Abraham's lineage.
2. Jacob as Israel promised to be the father of A NATION and MANY NATIONS. This was a matter of the choice of God as seen by God's direct interactions with Jacob/Israel.

Let's look at the next choice by God.

1. As mentioned in part 1, Jacob/Israel blesses Ephraim and Manasseh as his own 1st and 2nd born sons in place of Reuben and Simeon. The specific blessings are seen in Genesis 48:19

Genesis 48:19 But his father (Jacob/Israel) refused and said, “I know, my son (Joseph); I know. He (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he (Manasseh) also shall be great, but his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than him (Manasseh), and his (Ephraim) offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

Based solely on Genesis 48, we cannot see that this is God's choice. It looks like Jacob's/Israel's choice. It is not. It is a choice made by Jacob/Israel and confirmed by God in Jeremiah 31:9b as God's choice. We will look at Jeremiah 31 later because the timing of God's choice is very significant. It is mentioned here to confirm that the ADOPTION and BLESSING placed on Ephraim was God's will and choice, not just an action by Jacob/Israel apart from the will of God.

31:9b for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

At this point, consider this...

Ephraim has been changed from the LAST (2nd born to Joseph) to the FIRST (1st born of Israel by means of adoption). I believe this is a picture in the Old Testament that depicts what happens to christians as we are adopted into the Israel of God. Our adoption is spiritual in nature (Romans 8:15) and we wait for the adoption of our bodies (Romans 8:23). The spiritual nature of the adoption does not make our adoption lesser, but greater.

So I am opening up a new path/stream which is looking at things which are the Old Testament representation of things which are spiritual realities for us, as christians, after Christ has died, resurrected, ascended and the Holy Spirit is given.

So, I am putting forward two paths/streams. One stream that follows a blood lineage and a second path/stream that follows spiritual realities which are true for us by God's choosing and they represent a birthright/inheritance shared with us by our eldest brother (Jesus) in the Israel of God. Again, this is not my interpretation. This is God's presentation through the scripture. See 1 Chronicles 5:1-2 and note that these verses were written by Ezra after the return from Babylon. Ezra was looking back on the history of Israel and providing some interpretation of historical events. Ezra states there are two paths/streams in plain text.

The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph).

Judah - becomes strong and a chief came from him (i.e. the chief, David, also pointing to Jesus as Lion of the Tribe of Judah)
Joseph & the sons of Judah - the birthright! <-- wow, THE BIRTHRIGHT is set on a second path/stream through the history of Israel which is separate from Judah.

Next, we will look at the blessings of Jacob/Israel and Moses on our key characters with these two paths/streams in mind. These blessings are prophecies bestowed on the children of Jacob/Israel.

We have already seen the blessing on Ephraim and Manasseh, so we will look at a few other key characters to help draw a picture.
- Manasseh - he shall become a people
- Ephraim - he shall become a (malo goyim) which can be accurately translated two ways. 1) multitude of nations OR 2) fullness of gentiles

In a very long-winded fashion, I am writing down more about the Israel of God. I cannot really apologize for the long-windedness. It is very important to establish my definition of the Israel of God based on what God has presented in scripture. If I succeed in expanding your definition of the Israel of God then I may also succeed in helping you to realize that the common belief—that the Great Tribulation does not apply to "the Church"—may be false. We may fall under an "Audience of God" that is represented underneath the title of Israel. This would mean that in order to see our part in the Great Tribulation, we would have to more fully understand what PART of Israel we belong to and what portions of End Times prophetic scripture applies to us.

More later...

[Nell]

Matt,

This is really a "big gulp"! Something that helped me a lot was to go back and read all 3 parts of "Israel of God".

I may have said this before, but it's important to know the "audience", or who God is speaking to. Also, just because the word "Israel" is in the verse, there are multiple groups called by the title "Israel". Interesting that there is not one person in the Bible who was named "Israel" but God changed the name to Israel. Also, be mindful of the many "word pictures" which may or may not be literal. This is developed in the New Testament as "parables".

Thanks for all your work on this topic.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

After some delay, here is my final post on the Israel of God... There is so much to capture, it is impossible to write it all down. I keep finding more as I read more in recent years, but here is what I will stop with on this subject...

If you haven't already noticed, I am relying on a combination of the types, figures and the history of Israel to paint a picture of the Israel of God. There is a lot to this picture. I am going to try to make this my final post on the Israel of God which will leave a number of things unsaid.

Key Blessings
1. Read the blessing on Judah by Jacob/Israel (Gen 49:8-12) and Moses (Deut 33:7)
2. Read the blessing on Joseph by Jacob/Israel (Gen 49:22-26) and Moses (Deut 33:13-17)

You cannot help but notice when you compare these two that the blessings on Joseph seems much greater than the ones on Judah. Keep in mind what 1 Chronicles 5:1-2 says. Judah has a chief come from him, but Joseph and his adopted son's have the birthright.

There is one part of the blessing on Joseph by Moses that seems to have End Times significance. This particular verse always used to stick out to me and left me with the question "huh?!?" until I began to understand about Ephraim and Manasseh as sons of adoption and Joseph as a perfect type of Christ in the Old Testament. Joseph is not just a type of Christ in His first coming, but also in His second coming.

Deuteronomy 33:17

17 As the firstborn of his ox, majesty ⌊belongs to him⌋, and his horns are the horns of a wild ox; with them he drives people together, and they are the myriads of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

KEY MOMENTS IN HISTORY
1. Starting with the adoption of Ephraim as adopted into the place of the FIRSTBORN by Jacob/Israel, Ephraim is placed by choice to inherit the TITLE OF ISRAEL and position of the HEAD OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
2. There are two faithful witnesses who spy out the Promised Land, Joshua and Caleb. It is no mistake that Caleb is from Judah and Joshua is from Ephraim. Who is the "true and faithful" witness? Jesus Christ. There are two aspects of Jesus Christ foreshadowed in Joshua (Ephraim) and Caleb (Judah). There is an aspect that is tied to the blood line of Christ through Judah and Jesus's first coming. There is a second aspect that is tied to God's choice (election) and the birthright which belongs to Ephraim/Manasseh.
3. Given Ephraim's status as title bearer (Israel) and head of the house of Israel, it is correct that Joshua (i.e. Yeshua) leads the children of Israel into the Promised Land at the end of their wandering in the wilderness. I always used to wonder why Caleb as representing Judah and in the line of Christ didn't lead them in, but now I see what God connected with Ephraim,
4. The tent of meeting does not go to Jerusalem when they enter the promised land. It goes to Shiloh in the territory of Ephraim. God's choice was Ephraim at this time. Later God rejects Ephraim and moves the Ark of the Covenant and the tent of meeting. This choice of God is recorded in Psalm 78. The whole Psalm is a historical review of Israel, but verses 56-68 show this change of location.

Psalm 78:56-60

56 But they tested and rebelled against God Most High and did not keep his statutes.
57 And they turned and were treacherous like their ancestors. They twisted like a crooked bow.
58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and made him jealous with their images.
59 God heard and he was very angry and rejected Israel utterly.
60 So he abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh, the tent he had placed among humankind.

In verse 59, it says he rejected Israel utterly. This is directed at the current title bearer of Israel (Ephraim). It is not how most think of the word Israel in our modern age. This is one of those examples where you have to really understand the timing of a verse and who the audience really is.

Psalm 78:67-70

67 And he rejected the tent of Joseph, and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim,
68 but chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion that he loved.
69 And he built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
70 And he chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds.
71 He brought him from following nursing ewes to shepherd Jacob, his people, and Israel, his inheritance.

5. This Psalm gives us a clear record of God's transition from Ephraim to Judah. I believe that Judah became the title bearer of "Israel" as the period of Judges ended and the United Kingdom begins.
6. The United Kingdom splits into two parts. The Northern Kingdom (aka Israel or Ephraim) and the Southern Kingdom (aka Judah). The title of Israel goes with Ephraim (the Northern Kingdom).
7. The Northern Kingdom is destroyed (documented as a divorce) of one of the wives of God. Sounds strange, but read Ezekiel 23 where two sisters are identified (Oholah and Oholibah) as belonging to the Lord as wives. The language of an adulterous wife is ascribed to the Northern and Southern kingdoms repeatedly. Eventually, in Hosea 1, God divorces the Northern Kingdom, but preserves His relationship with the Southern Kingdom.
8. Multiple scriptures point to the restoration of Ephraim (i.e. Israel/Northern Kingdom) even after they are divorced. All of these references are prophetic.

The most significant references based on my reading to date are:

Jeremiah 31:9b (for I am a Father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn) which is part of the entire chapter which introduces the New Covenant with the "house of Israel".

Ezekiel 37:21-22

21 And speak to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Look! I am taking the Israelites from among the nations to which they went, and I will gather them from everywhere, and I will bring them to their own soil. 22 And I will make them into one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and they will all have one king as their king, and they will not again be two nations and will not again divide into two kingdoms again.

Hosea (multiple parts), but I will mention the reference that connects to Paul in the New Testament

Hosea 1:8–11 (LEB)

8 And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 And he said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not my people and I am not your God. 10 The number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea that cannot be measured or counted; and in the place where it is said to them, “You are not my people,” it will be said to them, “Children of the living God.” 11 Then the children of Judah and Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one head; and they will take possession of the land, for great is the day of Jezreel.

This connects us back to the New Testament where in Romans, Paul says

Romans 9:23–26 (LEB)

23 And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he also says in Hosea, “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and those who were not loved, ‘Loved.’ 26 And it will be in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Paul equates the verses that are directed at the House of Israel to us as Gentiles. Hosea shows us that God's action to cast out the Northern Kingdom by destroying them and scattering the people wherever the Assyrians sent them was an action to "seed the field" of the earth (i.e. seed the field of the Gentiles) with some who would later become the ekklessia ("ones called out of" the world). So, yes, the church is sourced from the Gentiles, but the Gentiles have also been "seeded" with the Israelites. This isn't to say that every Christian has to have a heritage back to the Northern Kingdom, but it is to say that God has been tracking every single one whom He cast out and their progeny. He is calling them back along with making a call to ALL the gentiles.

Matt

[Raptor]

This is must be true, right OHIO ? Oh, look 14 million views, surely it must be true, . This is proof Antichrist is coming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bntfUA6TmLs

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

This is must be true, right OHIO ? Oh, look 14 million views, surely it must be true, . This is proof Antichrist is coming:

Hello? Anybody home? You must have the wrong number.

Can anyone explain what Raptor is talking about?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hello? Anybody home? You must have the wrong number.

Can anyone explain what Raptor is talking about?

I don't drink energy drinks. And if Monster energy drinks are the antiChrist the poor devil is nothing to be concerned about.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The recent Covid lockdowns sparked many progressive leaders to first investigate contact tracking and later demand societal expulsion for vaccine hesitant resistors. This seemed to me unprecedented in history and like a serious preparation for the pending mark of the beast.

Can you explain more regarding this matter? I like to learn about it. Thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Can you explain more regarding this matter? I like to learn about it. Thanks.

Not sure where you are from, or which part of my post you are not familiar with, but my comment was a compilation of 2.5 years of news regarding the Covid pandemic, and how it is being used to prepare the whole inhabited earth for the mark of the beast. (Rev 13.16-17)

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure where you are from, or which part of my post you are not familiar with, but my comment was a compilation of 2.5 years of news regarding the Covid pandemic, and how it is being used to prepare the whole inhabited earth for the mark of the beast. (Rev 13.16-17)

Sorry. I didn't read all posts but yours attracted my attention; my focus is on "how." How is it being used to prepare the whole inhabited earth for the mark of the beast? Thanks, and I am from Dana Point.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure where you are from, or which part of my post you are not familiar with, but my comment was a compilation of 2.5 years of news regarding the Covid pandemic, and how it is being used to prepare the whole inhabited earth for the mark of the beast. (Rev 13.16-17)

Pure speculation, no Scriptural basis. Like so many others that have speculated throughout history. Then when it does not happen, the faith and the Bible get a bad name.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

How is it being used to prepare the whole inhabited earth for the mark of the beast?

Originally Posted by Raptor

Pure speculation, no Scriptural basis.

No scriptural basis? Did I not connect recent events, those occurring throughout the world, with these verses in Rev 13.16-17?

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Have you not read the news since March 2020? I don't plan to post thousands of links providing evidence of places around the world where people were/are not allowed to shop, to eat, to work, to ride public transportation, to participate in society because they were not properly vaxxed and boosted with proof. Didn't matter if they were "great or small, rich or poor, free or slave." There extreme mandates went well beyond customary and precautionary quarantines for the sick.

These vaccine mandates alone move this well beyond "pure speculation," and the referenced verses provide adequate "scriptural basis."

But you are entitled to your own opinions here.

P.S. Note that I never said the vaccine itself was the actual mark of the Beast, only that the draconian mandates with their penalties were a preparation for what the Bible prophecies of.

[Raptor]

OK, finally, proof!!! The Antichrist is coming soon, THIS is the proof...

Are Texas Schools Forcing Students to Bear the Mark of the Antichrist?

https://newrepublic.com/article/1105...surfaces-texas

"A San Antonio teenager and her family are suing her school district over a creepy new initiative launched this fall that requires students to carry ID badges with GPS chips that can track them at all times.... That barcode, says the Hernandez family, is the “mark of the Beast” prophesied in the New Testament Book of Revelation, and the school district's requirement that Andrea carry or wear a card bearing the code violates her religious rights."

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

P.S. Note that I never said the vaccine itself was the actual mark of the Beast, only that the draconian mandates with their penalties were a preparation for what the Bible prophecies of.

Thank you. I have heard of other comments, most on the vaccine itself. What you said here makes sense.

[JorgeP]

Fraternal greetings brothers. I would like to make my contribution on this topic because we are in the final days and the Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon. Please be open to what I am going to share with you. The Bible is a book of divine science, it is not a religious book or a spiritual book only. God's economy is a genetic economy. From the beginning, God wanted to impart his divine genetics or divine nature into man, into his human genetics. Human genetics are perfectly designed to be one with God's divine genetics. Satan the counterfeiter and impostor copied God and in the beginning with Adam and Eve, Satan went ahead and injected the satanic genetics and man and his human genetics became one with him. The result is that the man was ruined and his genetics damaged. Throughout the ages Satan has been working hard to destroy human genetics and not only destroy them but also mix them with angelic genetics. The result of this was: Cain and from him, that cursed seed half man and half fallen angel advanced to multiply with the Nephilim. The fallen angels who slept with women in Noah's day simply imitated what Satan did in Eden: corrupt human genetics and mix it with angelic genetics. The result of this genetic disaster was non-human offspring, if not hybrid and totally fallen. The consequences that this brought was the divine judgment of God to clean up this genetic mess and do a reboot. When the Bible talks about "Generations" it is talking about human genetics (Noah was perfect in his generations) Noah was perfect in his genetics, that's why God chose him to preserve humanity and repopulate the earth. After this, God uses Noah with preserved genetics to repopulate the earth. Despite this, the seed, or offspring of the serpent, was able to survive the flood and continued to multiply on earth and we can see the Nephilim at the time of the Canaan wars. God gave Joshua the commandment to exterminate all that cursed genetically hybrid race, which is why he wiped out almost all the Canaanites because they were the seed of the serpent. Joshua was physically victorious by almost completely eradicating the Nephilim, the serpent seed: half man, half angel. The survivors of this fallen race, throughout the ages, survived and infiltrated the most powerful kingdoms and have been stealing the highest positions of authority in all of human history. From the positions of the pharaohs through the Sumerian kings and the Babylonian kings, to the kings of Europe today. In the time of Joseph, the Nephilim were already ruling in Egypt. Archeology reveals and confirms these things, including Egyptian history, Babylonian history, and Sumerian history. Through all these years they have been destroying the genetics of man by genetically modifying everything: food, nature, environment, air, water, everything you need for essential human existence.

In this way, they can destroy and weaken human genetics to control it and in addition to controlling it, mix it with angelic genetics. How can they achieve that? It's not new, why? Because angels have the ability to develop technology. Technology is a knowledge or science that comes from the divine science of God, which the angels also know and the angels have used for the satanic purpose of the rebel angel. Remember that Lucifer was the height of wisdom, wiser than Daniel and no secret at the angelic level was hidden from him. Satan has been developing the technology to genetically give man, and mix it with angelic genetics. In the final days all these satanic agendas of modifying food, natural resources, the environment, water, air, are already exposed to light. Technology is the means to mix man with her. The mud mixed with iron (Mud, the man, the iron, the technology) Behind the technology are the fallen angels, the demons, and all these evil spiritual entities trying to modify man to make man a vessel genetically compatible with the fallen angels and all these evil entities. In simple words it is transhumanism. All the injections that have been developed throughout the ages have an end: to modify human genetics, poisoning man. The agenda of the coronavirus is simply to introduce poison into the human being and also to introduce technological matter to prepare the human body for transhumanism and men to receive the mark of the beast: Technology within the human body. The mark of the beast is technology within the human body and through this technology, Satan will be able to take genetic control of man and make him a vessel that instead of being filled with God is filled with Satan. Satan will sit in the temple of God and pose as God. God's temple is man, not the temple in Jerusalem. The good news is that there is a perfect man in divine and human genetics, who has lived the life that God prepared for us but we lost in the beginning. That man is Jesus Christ, the only God Man, perfect in his divine and human genetics. Jesus Christ destroyed Satan on the cross, also annulling the angelic genetics and has freed us from becoming the house of Satan, to be the house of God, we are the temple and abode of the Holy Spirit. Praise Jesus Christ! He is transforming and restoring us, so that His divine and human genetics, restore our genetics damaged by sin and we can live that life for which we were created, to be one with Him. So brothers, if we want to win until the end, we must keep ourselves genetically pure as far as possible, Jesus Christ came to save man, not genetic hybrids, not the Nephilim, not the cursed race of the serpent's seed, not half-man, half-angel, or half-man man half animal nor men half man half machines. He came for men who are genetically men. The mark of the beast is the final seal for the destruction of the genetics of man, all those who receive the mark of the beast will be one with the angelica, becoming transhumans and it is something irreversible. Do not receive the mark of the beast! All those who receive the mark of the beast will suffer the consequences of God's just judgment, and his wrath. Man was not created to be one with Satan and his genetics, man was created by God to be one with Jesus Christ and his genetics!

[Nell]

JorgeP,

We are “open” to what you have written….conditionally. Who told you this? Did you do the research personally or are you relying on other sources?

You need to provide source material for this discourse. We are long past taking someone's word for their speculations. You seem to have taken some scripture and "mingled" it with the historical writings of men.

Please do us the courtesy of providing documentation so that we can read and decide for ourselves the veracity of your post.

I've heard some of what you say before, but I'm not inclined to assign what you're saying as authoritative without source references. Thanks for your help.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[JorgeP]

Originally Posted by Nell

JorgeP,

We are “open” to what you have written….conditionally. Who told you this? Did you do the research personally or are you relying on other sources?

You need to provide source material for this discourse. We are long past taking someone's word for their speculations. You seem to have taken some scripture and "mingled" it with the historical writings of men.

Please do us the courtesy of providing documentation so that we can read and decide for ourselves the veracity of your post.

I've heard some of what you say before, but I'm not inclined to assign what you're saying as authoritative without source references. Thanks for your help.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

If it is the sum of the research that I have done of some ministries searching the Scriptures and testing what they share and connecting it with God's economy or God's plan for man, as well as working on my personal research in the Scriptures. At the end I leave you some links to some very useful ministries to clearly understand the biological, genetic and physical part of God's eternal plan for man.

Throughout the history of the ekklesia, there have been many Bible scholars, and true or genuine seekers were able to make their contribution to the ekklesia by sharing their revelation or understanding of the many aspects of divine truths that have been in the Holy Bible. Scriptures. I give credit to all the sincere Christian ministries that have worked hard to have an adequate understanding or the healthiest possible so that through these years the new believers or old believers can advance in our personal search for the truth. Without going into details of interpretations of the "Truth" understanding that the truth is the person of Jesus Christ and everything that is related to Him. So whoever is interested in reviewing this information I invite you to search, examine and test a sincere and humble manner.


Satan has done a hard job of discrediting the revelation in the Bible. Selling to the world, the revelation of the Scriptures as something religious or simply spiritual. But the truth is that in addition to the Bible being a spiritual book, it is also a book of revelation in the biological, genetic and physical part of creation with respect to God's plan. The biological, genetic and physical part of creation is as important as the spiritual part. The clear proof of this is that in addition to the divine spiritual Trinity creating the biological, genetic and physical creation, God also became man. God incarnated, and obtained a biological, human genetic and physical part. God and His divine nature or divine genetics mixed with humanity so that the God-Man Jesus Christ could be born. Besides that, he lived a real life, physical, genetic and biological. He went to the cross as a man, He died as a man, He rose as a perfect man in His genetics and physical biology, He ascended as a man. To this day, this God Man Jesus Christ is still a man, with human biology and genetics and a physical body. When he returns to earth to establish the visible part of his kingdom, he will do so physically.

When the Lord returns, whether we are physically dead or raptured, the Lord will perfect His work of restoration in our biological, genetic and physical part. After the resurrection we will continue to be normal men, with a biology, genetics and physical body saturated with the Holy Spirit.Even after the age of the millennial kingdom, when the time of this creation comes to an end, at the beginning of the days of eternity, the Lord will make new heavens and a new earth, with the nations that have remained from the time of creation, and will reign over them, including biological and physical human beings, as the New Jerusalem for eternity, even the final part of Revelation reveals this clearly and simply. The physical, biological and genetic part is as important as the spiritual part, because they go together, they cannot be separated.

In my personal case, I have been able to receive the blessing of the Lord's restoration in my life, abandoning more and more a technological life and returning to a more natural life. I am a testimony of the damage that technology does to man. Thanks to the liberation of the Lord, I have been able to change my diet, my technological lifestyle that was very harmful and devastating, and now I can experience in a practical way in my humanity how the Lord has freed me and continues to restore me from the damage that technology caused me. Technology, and all the bad foods, and anti-natural, anti-human lifestyle that I led before I met Jesus Christ. As a new believer, I thought that the spiritual was everything, and although it is partly true, thanks to the fact that I have been able to mature a little, I now understand that the Lord's restoration is spiritual, human and physical. I had neglected the physical part, thinking that the spiritual had more value and it turns out that the two go together.

I give credit to the brothers who are active in this Christian forum and have made very good contributions, thanks to the Lord for their work and collaboration. In my journey of this Christian life I have learned that although one has a personal search for the Lord and that is irreplaceable, it turns out that we all have spiritual gifts and that we need each other to be able to see everything in terms of the plan. of God with man, centered on the person of Jesus Christ. So, even though we have the anointing, which teaches us all things, this anointing is designed to be distributed in the Body and in this way we need each other. As for the gift of divine science, true science, there are brothers who have it more developed than others and it is a blessing to be able to receive the benefit of them. This motivates us to continue seeking to grow more in life and to be able to manifest the spiritual gifts that the Lord has given us to build His ekklesia. I understood that I cannot confine myself to a single ministry, but rather that I have to continue learning to work hard in research, and in addition to investigating other ministries, also my own personal search, learning to connect things to have a more interesting panorama of God's eternal purpose.


https://www.nicholson1968.com/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/user/nicholson1968/featured

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwR...FAX24KcXIIo7yA

http://www.ronaldmegiddo.com/

https://www.youtube.com/user/harmegiddocanal

[Nell]

JorgeP,

I looked at your source links ("Youtube theology?") and found them to be written in a language that I do not understand. From what I do understand about what you have written in your 2 posts, to be blunt, it seems to be a mixture of seductive knowledge. Some of it may be accurate...to an extent, but still a mixture and a counterfeit.

I understood that I cannot confine myself to a single ministry, but rather that I have to continue learning to work hard in research, and in addition to investigating other ministries, also my own personal search, learning to connect things to have a more interesting panorama of God's eternal purpose.

You seem to be seeking knowledge in your "research" and "investigation". If knowledge is what you want, you may get just that. But, you may open yourself up to knowledge from unexpected sources as described in I Timothy

1 Tim. 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

When you seek a relationship with God the Father, He will give you what you need...in His own time.

JorgeP, I just don't trust your sources...doesn't sound right.

Nell

[JorgeP]

Originally Posted by Nell

JorgeP,

I looked at your source links ("Youtube theology?") and found them to be written in a language that I do not understand. From what I do understand about what you have written in your 2 posts, to be blunt, it seems to be a mixture of seductive knowledge. Some of it may be accurate...to an extent, but still a mixture and a counterfeit.



You seem to be seeking knowledge in your "research" and "investigation". If knowledge is what you want, you may get just that. But, you may open yourself up to knowledge from unexpected sources as described in I Timothy



When you seek a relationship with God the Father, He will give you what you need...in His own time.

JorgeP, I just don't trust your sources...doesn't sound right.

Nell

You are free to accept and reject whatever you want. But I know that your answer has no weight in this case since you have not had a search regarding this topic. The fact that you are very active in this forum and that you have responded to some posts that I have made, does not mean that you have the capacity at this time to address the issue. Just as I recognized your good contributions, I can also tell you that since you don't handle the subject then, you don't know about the matter and it would be easier to be humble and say that you don't know and that you are interested, you are going to look for it and then comment on something. The fact that some of the sources of information are not in English does not mean that they are not truthful, it may be that they are wrong in some things but in others they are accurate as all the ministries have good and wrong things. I can also quote you many biblical verses to knock down many of your comments that you have made in the forum that do not make sense or are wrong, but the truth is that I am not interested in looking for your faults in terms of biblical understanding. I have already made my contribution, you can give your opinion what you want, but regarding this issue I see that you are scarce and you are not humble in accepting it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by JorgeP

You are free to accept and reject whatever you want. But I know that your answer has no weight in this case since you have not had a search regarding this topic. The fact that you are very active in this forum and that you have responded to some posts that I have made, does not mean that you have the capacity at this time to address the issue. Just as I recognized your good contributions, I can also tell you that since you don't handle the subject then, you don't know about the matter and it would be easier to be humble and say that you don't know and that you are interested, you are going to look for it and then comment on something. The fact that some of the sources of information are not in English does not mean that they are not truthful, it may be that they are wrong in some things but in others they are accurate as all the ministries have good and wrong things. I can also quote you many biblical verses to knock down many of your comments that you have made in the forum that do not make sense or are wrong, but the truth is that I am not interested in looking for your faults in terms of biblical understanding. I have already made my contribution, you can give your opinion what you want, but regarding this issue I see that you are scarce and you are not humble in accepting it.

I'll correct myself. I read your 2 posts. I don't trust what you said in your 2 posts. Of course, that your sources are not in English is irrelevant. That was not my point. My point was: I relied on your words to access what you said, since I couldn't read your sources.

Overall, although there may be some accuracy in what you said, I humbly do not accept it as sound Christian teaching.

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by JorgeP

Fraternal greetings brothers. I would like to make my contribution on this topic because we are in the final days and the Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon. Please be open to what I am going to share with you. The Bible is a book of divine science, it is not a religious book or a spiritual book only. God's economy is a genetic economy. From the beginning, God wanted to impart his divine genetics or divine nature into man, into his human genetics. Human genetics are perfectly designed to be one with God's divine genetics. Satan the counterfeiter and impostor copied God and in the beginning with Adam and Eve, Satan went ahead and injected the satanic genetics and man and his human genetics became one with him. The result is that the man was ruined and his genetics damaged.

JorgeP,

I don't think I have interacted with you yet, so first let me say welcome to the forum!

Like Nell, I also visited the links and they were not in English, so I was unable to read further to try to understand your point of view better. My main question regarding what you have written is about what I have put in bold above. You state that in the beginning with Adam and Eve, Satan injected the satanic genetics, and man and his human genetics became one with him [Satan].

This sounds similar to something the local church believes.....that Satan injected himself into man, that Satan entered into mankind in general, etc.... I may be wrong, but I think this is a rare belief among Christians in general....that Satan is in man or mingled with man. I have looked into the teaching some and have found little-to-no basis in the Bible for it. Can you please point me to where the Bible might back this claim up?

Thanks,

Trapped

[Nell]

Why the war in Ukraine is causing a worldwide apocalyptic famine:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bupS-d_cAtk

What do you think? 37 minutes but worth your time.

Nell

[Nell]

If you’re on your way to the grocery store, there are at least two possibilities: you and your family will benefit from extra supplies of food, or, you may one day have a much needed donation for the local food bank. A win-win.

So are we in Revelation 6?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So are we in Revelation 6?

Nell

Have you seen Lake Mead lately?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you seen Lake Mead lately?

I heard about it:
Lake Mead Water Level Drops to “Inactive Pool Status”
By Mark Schwendau
At approximately 2:00 p.m. yesterday June 22nd Lake Mead’s water level dropped to a historic point. The point where the electric generators of the Hoover Dam might become inactive. This is the first time this has happened in the history of the Hoover Dam since its completion in May of 1935. The dam was named after President Herbert Hoover.

More "drought/famine in the US" related links from Matt Anderson's website: Layman's Fellowship

Interactive Chart of Droughts in United States
https://www.drought.gov/historical-i...eUSDM=20101116
From June 2021
Who knew there was a website "drought.gov"?

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/dro...es-2021-06-17/
From July 2021
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rought-us-west
https://www.kqed.org/science/1975782...ions-heres-why
From September 2021
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/us/so...nge/index.html

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So are we in Revelation 6?

Nell

But to answer your question definitively, I think the earthquake of the 6th Seal will inform us believers without question. I believe the long-awaited “big one” will be God’s judgment on California.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But to answer your question definitively, I think the earthquake of the 6th Seal will inform us believers without question. I believe the long-awaited “big one” will be God’s judgment on California.

It might get pretty ugly before the earthquakes though. Re: earthquakes, at least CA decommissioned the San Onofre nuclear power plant on the San Andreas fault.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

I heard about it:
[I]Lake Mead Water Level Drops to “Inactive Pool Status”
By Mark Schwendau

Nell

I recalled a brother (who I respected) who said in his sermon, "watch for Hoover Dam." It's been a very long time since I couldn't recall the details. I probably would not recall if I didn't read the post.

[Ohio]

I believe that the use of primary education, exposed nationwide during the pandemic school lock downs, in order to groom children for gender crossover is particularly disturbing to our Creator. One of the most basic truths known by mankind is that God has created us, male and female. The major institutions of American society, especially our education system, have categorically rejected these truths. They reject the existence of God, that God created us, and that God made us male and female. Society now celebrates a transitioning child like we used to celebrate graduation from high school or college.

Because they have refused to love this simple truth, a bedrock for all of man’s history, God has given them over to a delusion, an operation of error, to believe the lies. America now faces a fever pitch from all those demanding the sanctioned slaughter of the unborn. The general condition in America is far worse than even that of Sodom when it was judged in Genesis19 before the long promised arrival of Isaac. Paul in 2 Thess 2 identifies this delusion as a condition prior to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So many Christian ministers today predict revival is looming. Most Christians accept this as Gospel truth. While I welcome revival, and have prayed for revival in our land, I just don’t see that promise in the NT. I’m starting to think this may be false hope. In this same section of scripture, Paul speaks of a great apostasy, a falling away. This does not reference society as a whole, but rather the church, God’s people, “falling away” from the faith. The only other time this Greek word apostasia is mentioned in the Bible, is when Paul was regularly accused by the Jews of “apostasy from Moses” in Acts 21.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

I heard about it:
Lake Mead Water Level Drops to “Inactive Pool Status”
By Mark Schwendau
At approximately 2:00 p.m. yesterday June 22nd Lake Mead’s water level dropped to a historic point. The point where the electric generators of the Hoover Dam might become inactive. This is the first time this has happened in the history of the Hoover Dam since its completion in May of 1935. The dam was named after President Herbert Hoover.

More "drought/famine in the US" related links from Matt Anderson's website: Layman's Fellowship

Interactive Chart of Droughts in United States
https://www.drought.gov/historical-i...eUSDM=20101116
From June 2021
Who knew there was a website "drought.gov"?

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/dro...es-2021-06-17/
From July 2021
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rought-us-west
https://www.kqed.org/science/1975782...ions-heres-why
From September 2021
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/us/so...nge/index.html

Nell

While alarming.. Arizona, Nevada, most of Utah and California are deserts. Building a metropolis in these areas was never sustainable to begin with.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

While alarming.. Arizona, Nevada, most of Utah and California are deserts. Building a metropolis in these areas was never sustainable to begin with.

Not to minimize the gravity of the situation or end time implications.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Not to minimize the gravity of the situation or end time implications.

True, but is it really an end times sign when it’s a natural consequence of an action? Hard to say.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

True, but is it really an end times sign when it’s a natural consequence of an action? Hard to say.

In context of everything else that is happening, i.e. the video link above, it fits. You don’t have to call it anything. Just watching all the ominous events occurring.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

So are we in Revelation 6?
Nell

WL taught that the great earthquake of Rev. 6 is right at the beginning of the great tribulation, a mega warning and initiation to the GT. I don´t agree. I believe Rev. 6 shows a vision of the end of the GT, just before the actual coming of the Lord. (not everything in Rev. is laid out in an orderly sequence. There are often things out of chronological order, repetitions and overlaps.)

Originally Posted by Raptor

WL taught that the great earthquake of Rev. 6 is right at the beginning of the great tribulation, a mega warning and initiation to the GT. I don´t agree. I believe Rev. 6 shows a vision of the end of the GT, just before the actual coming of the Lord. (not everything in Rev. is laid out in an orderly sequence. There are often things out of chronological order, repetitions and overlaps.)

Did anyone here ever considered why did the location of So Cal became the spot for Local Church headquarters? I mean, they have built their whole operation right next to the biggest fault lines in California, which has been predicted by many to cause one of the biggest earthquakes in that state.
Even bigger than that, they built everything on the wrong side of the fault line, and if it ever happens, it will wipe of the whole thing. Just an observation, but maybe that’s what they’re hoping for? or just miscalculation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Did anyone here ever considered why did the location of So Cal became the spot for Local Church headquarters? I mean, they have built their whole operation right next to the biggest fault lines in California, which has been predicted by many to cause one of the biggest earthquakes in that state.
Even bigger than that, they built everything on the wrong side of the fault line, and if it ever happens, it will wipe of the whole thing. Just an observation, but maybe that’s what they’re hoping for? or just miscalculation.

Recently there has been an exodus from Cal reportedly due to crime, taxes, and the high cost of living, but few mention the threat of an earthquake as reason for leaving.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But to answer your question definitively, I think the earthquake of the 6th Seal will inform us believers without question. I believe the long-awaited “big one” will be God’s judgment on California.

"and every mountain and island was removed from its place"

My personal speculation is that this earthquake will make the Atlantic ocean drain to the south and the six continent will re-unite. Jerusalem will be at the center of the single land mass and will be the world's capital during the last millennium.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

"and every mountain and island was removed from its place"

My personal speculation is that this earthquake will make the Atlantic ocean drain to the south and the six continent will re-unite. Jerusalem will be at the center of the single land mass and will be the world's capital during the last millennium.

Interesting. I think that much sudden continental movement would cause every land mass to temporarily be covered with water killing all life.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Interesting. I think that much sudden continental movement would cause every land mass to temporarily be covered with water killing all life.

My speculation is based on the assumption that the judgement on the Earth at the time of Peleg will be reversed.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

"and every mountain and island was removed from its place"

My personal speculation is that this earthquake will make the Atlantic ocean drain to the south and the six continent will re-unite. Jerusalem will be at the center of the single land mass and will be the world's capital during the last millennium.

There are a few more things to consider regarding the mountains and islands. Revelation 6 has the first reference to "mountains and islands". I think there is both literal/physical significance to the references of "mountains and islands" and also symbolic ones. Symbolically, "mountains" represent places of power of kingdoms in our current world. I believe "islands" are linked to another concept seen in the Old Testament which is "coastlands". Hebrew uses a single word to talk about "islands" and "coastlands" and both of these references refer to the "gentile" nations that are at a greater distance from Israel. I am not stuck on these understandings of the symbolic meanings, just my thinking from years of progressive observation.

As for the literal/physical aspects, there is another reference to "mountains and islands" in Revelation 16 at the end of the Great Tribulation to consider.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled, and mountains were not found.

Later on at the end of the millennial kingdom we find another interesting reference. This next verse comes after Satan is released from prison and goes out to the deceive the kings of the earth one final time.

Revelation 20:9 (LEB)
9 And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

At this point, the area surrounding Jerusalem (not the new Jerusalem yet) is a "broad plain". If we look at Jerusalem now, it is NOT surrounded by a "broad plain".

So, I also believe there is evidence of a reconfiguration of the earth as we move into the millennial kingdom, but I am not sure how significantly the continents are reconfigured. If the "islands" are synonymous with "coastlands" in Revelation (like they are in the OT), then it is entirely possible that all the continents would be reconnected as all the mountains and islands go away per Revelation 16:20.

We also know something else about the waters that currently separate the continents. There is a passage in Ezekiel 47 which I believe is connected to the millennial kingdom. I believe this passage shows us that there will still be waters, but their nature is changed from salt water to fresh water.

Ezekiel 47:7–11 (LEB)
7 When I returned, then look! On the bank of the river were many trees on both sides. 8 And he said to me, “These waters are going out to the eastern region, and they go down to the Jordan Valley, and they come to the sea and flow into the sea where they issue out, and the waters in the sea will be healed. 9 And then every living creature with which it teems, to every place the waters come it will live; and very many fish will live because these waters came there, and so the water will be healed and everything will be alive everywhere that the stream will come. 10 And then fishers from En Gedi and on up to En Eglaim will stand beside it, a sea-girt drying yard for nets; their fish for the dragnets will be of every kind, like the fish of the great sea, and very many. 11 But its marshes and its swamps will not be cured, for they were given for salt.

Matt

[Timotheist]

When the lands are re-united under one king, then we will finally have a MOTA.

[Nell]

Here are a couple of links to stuff that is going on in the US/World that are interesting. I can't say definitively that these are End Times issues, but neither can I say that they aren't.

Farm Chemical Shortages
A disturbing report by Reuters, featuring interviews with more than a dozen chemical dealers, manufacturers, farmers, and weed specialists, indicates chemical shortages have disrupted U.S. growers’ production strategies and points to reduced harvests this season.

Color Revolution
A color revolution (not about "color") is a known tactical CIA operation that uses a seemingly spontaneous act as the precipitating event to destabilize a country and effect regime change. The color revolution is what is happening in America...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here are a couple of links to stuff that is going on in the US/World that are interesting. I can't say definitively that these are End Times issues, but neither can I say that they aren't.

Color Revolution
A color revolution (not about "color") is a known tactical CIA operation that uses a seemingly spontaneous act as the precipitating event to destabilize a country and effect regime change. The color revolution is what is happening in America...

Nell, mentioning “Color Revolution” exposes how our own Intelligentia is working to overthrow our Democratic Republic in the the US. I doubt if any others on this forum have a clue as to what is happening beneath the surface. Here is just one comment from your cited article:

The organization Black Lives Matter (BLM) is not about black lives. BLM is a Marxist organization disguised as a civil rights organization. Instead of improving race relations, BLM exploits racial tensions to collapse America from within and replace our constitutional republic with socialism/communism. BLM is the ultimate humanitarian hoax being perpetrated on unsuspecting Americans who still believe that BLM cares about black lives. They don’t.

The reader who takes offense at the above comments has never taken the time to understand the riots of 2020 and probably would reject everything else in the article as “conspiracy theory,” or some such. Our entire Press and media has worked tirelessly to perpetrate this hoax on the unsuspecting Public.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, mentioning “Color Revolution” exposes how our own Intelligentia is working to overthrow our Democratic Republic in the the US. I doubt if any others on this forum have a clue as to what is happening beneath the surface. Here is just one comment from your cited article:

The organization Black Lives Matter (BLM) is not about black lives. BLM is a Marxist organization disguised as a civil rights organization. Instead of improving race relations, BLM exploits racial tensions to collapse America from within and replace our constitutional republic with socialism/communism. BLM is the ultimate humanitarian hoax being perpetrated on unsuspecting Americans who still believe that BLM cares about black lives. They don’t.

The reader who takes offense at the above comments has never taken the time to understand the riots of 2020 and probably would reject everything else in the article as “conspiracy theory,” or some such. Our entire Press and media has worked tirelessly to perpetrate this hoax on the unsuspecting Public.

Ohio,

I had never heard of “color revolution”, but it does fit with the 2020 riots. It’s chilling. Especially if our own CIA is, in fact, illegally operating domestically…working against us.

Somehow we have gone off the rails trusting the government instead of God.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

I had never heard of “color revolution”, but it does fit with the 2020 riots. It’s chilling. Especially if our own CIA is, in fact, illegally operating domestically…working against us.

Somehow we have gone off the rails trusting the government instead of God.

Nell

The proverbial “we,” who have gone off the rails, is no longer the “we” who began this American country. The people who now run the institutions of government have become a class of godless power hungry elites who neither know God nor trust God.

In the last days the book of Revelation cries out to those who still fear God and obey His commands. These ones will be societal outcasts rejecting the broad and popular way that leads to destruction, and choosing rather the narrow way that leads to life.

60 years ago JFK understood the power and the dangers of the intelligence community. He was setup during the Bay of Pigs fiasco. He tried to curtail its power and then died trying to make it happen.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The proverbial “we,” who have gone off the rails, is no longer the “we” who began this American country. The people who now run the institutions of government have become a class of godless power hungry elites who neither know God nor trust God.

In the last days the book of Revelation cries out to those who still fear God and obey His commands. These ones will be societal outcasts rejecting the broad and popular way that leads to destruction, and choosing rather the narrow way that leads to life.

60 years ago JFK understood the power and the dangers of the intelligence community. He was setup during the Bay of Pigs fiasco. He tried to curtail its power and then died trying to make it happen.

Yup. President Eisenhower warned in 1961, the rising power of what he called the military industrial complex.

“The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."—Ike

And then there's this:
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatica...raternity.html

Has some "one world religion" vibes. Set to open the end of this year.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here are a couple of links to stuff that is going on in the US/World that are interesting. I can't say definitively that these are End Times issues, but neither can I say that they aren't.

Farm Chemical Shortages
A disturbing report by Reuters, featuring interviews with more than a dozen chemical dealers, manufacturers, farmers, and weed specialists, indicates chemical shortages have disrupted U.S. growers’ production strategies and points to reduced harvests this season.

Color Revolution
A color revolution (not about "color") is a known tactical CIA operation that uses a seemingly spontaneous act as the precipitating event to destabilize a country and effect regime change. The color revolution is what is happening in America...

Here's another timely message. If you have access to the Roku channel, see Megiddo: The March to Armageddon. There are other places where it can be viewed.

• "Megiddo: The March to Armageddon" explores Bible prophecy concerning the last day kingdom of Antichrist, tracking the history of the New World Order from the pages of Scripture through the global revolution that is sweeping the world. Popular subjects in this film include the prophecies of Revelation and Daniel, as well as the history of the Illuminati and Freemasonry on the New World Order movement.
  —Christian J. Pinto

The book of Daniel is covered thoroughly then there are many quotes from "The New World Order" by William T. Stills.

It's 2h 12m long but worth it...very sobering.

Nell

[Nell]

As you check out these two links, consider these verses in Revelation 18. Specifically who or what Babylon the great? Who or what are "all nations" (global) and "the kings of the earth"(global leadership) and "merchants of the earth" (big business, big tech, little business, little tech).

Revelation 18
² And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
³ For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
⁴ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Coming soon: New version of the Internet WEB3

Already here: Cryptocurrency
IMHO, these two "things" are increasing the dependence of peoples of the world on the Internet which seems to be the foundation for the merchants of the earth to do business. Also, it appears to me that cryptocurrency is totally dependent on the Internet. Is this correct? If so, what happens if the Internet is compromised?

Nell


*****************
I want to keep these links together, so I'm repeating.
*****************

Farm Chemical Shortages
A disturbing report by Reuters, featuring interviews with more than a dozen chemical dealers, manufacturers, farmers, and weed specialists, indicates chemical shortages have disrupted U.S. growers’ production strategies and points to reduced harvests this season.

Color Revolution
A color revolution (not about "color") is a known tactical CIA operation that uses a seemingly spontaneous act as the precipitating event to destabilize a country and effect regime change. The color revolution is what is happening in America...

Here's another timely message. If you have access to the Roku channel, see Megiddo: The March to Armageddon. There are other places where it can be viewed. Warning! It's 2h 12m.

[Nell]

Huh?

Divine Coincidence? Red Heifers Arrive In Israel Before New Shmita Cycle Begins

“A major prophetic event just happened, and hardly anyone in the United States is talking about it.

In recent years a group of western Christians known as Boneh Israel has been working with officials from the Temple Institute to search for a perfect red heifer. A red heifer is necessary if Temple sacrifices are to be reinstituted, but one hasn't been seen in Israel for more than 2,000 years.

This is something that I have written about a few times over the years, because it directly relates to end times prophecies. For a long time, the search for a perfect red heifer seemed to be going nowhere, but now all of that has changed.

On September 15th, five perfect red heifers from the United States landed at Ben Gurion Airport. The following comes from the official website of the Temple Institute...

On Thursday, September 15, 2022, 5 PM, 5 perfect, unblemished red heifers arrived in Israel from the USA. A modest ceremony was held at the unloading bay of the cargo terminal at Ben Gurion airport, where the new arrivals were greeted and speeches were made by the incredible people who have put their hearts and souls and means into making this historic/prophetic day become a reality.

It would be difficult to overstate the prophetic importance of this event. In Numbers 19:1-10, we read about the very first time that the ashes of a red heifer were used...

Read the full article here. https://www.prophecynewswatch.com/ar...t_news_id=5612

Nell

The story link about the red heifers has no sources. It seems to be worded in a way common to conspiracy theory articles (or even advertising clickbait): It titillates with emotionally-laden possibilities. But it has no reliable sourcing of claims made. There is nothing verifiable. That is a red flag.

What brings the Lord back will not be the saints on jittery all-night internet rapture watch. It will be the saints choosing instead to watch in prayer, in bearing fruit, by gaining the oil. If we gained believers by excitement, we would lose them quickly. (Embarrassingly, I've had lots of experience bringing in college students who get excited at love feasts or conferences in the LR, we see them standing and shouting and calling on the Lord, their faces glowing. Wow!...and we never see them again).

This kind of thinking, that is, jumping to conclusions when we see an event that sounds similar to what we want to see, is not clear thinking. One test is: does it bear out in the long run? Also, does it create primarily emotional responses, like excitement, fear, or anger?

I would venture a guess, although I have no scriptural support for it, that if we're watching His face, it will not be a surprise when He comes.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The story link about the red heifers has no sources. It seems to be worded in a way common to conspiracy theory articles (or even advertising clickbait): It titillates with emotionally-laden possibilities. But it has no reliable sourcing of claims made. There is nothing verifiable. That is a red flag.

AT the end of the article is this statement:
Originally published at:
https://endoftheamericandream.com/is...ycle-to-begin/ reposted with permission. If you follow the link you'll see the article was published on September 18, 2022 and written by Michael. No last name provided.

It's "legitimate claim" is based on Numbers 19:1-10 which is quoted in its entirety on the link provided.

In Numbers 19:1-10, is the first time that the ashes of a red heifer were used...
And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:
...

What brings the Lord back will not be the saints on jittery all-night internet rapture watch. It will be the saints choosing instead to watch in prayer, in bearing fruit, by gaining the oil. If we gained believers by excitement, we would lose them quickly....

As for "what brings the Lord back," what are your sources, your references? You are entitled to your opinion/teachings/speculations, but it would be fair to provide your sources for your commentary...since you needed sources for this article.

There are many end times prophecies from the Bible. That's what we're discussing on this topic "Prophecy - The End Times". All opinions are welcome.

This kind of thinking, that is, jumping to conclusions when we see an event that sounds similar to what we want to see, is not clear thinking. One test is: does it bear out in the long run? Also, does it create primarily emotional responses, like excitement, fear, or anger...

I don't see the jump...to any conclusions. Just a report of an event that seems to parallel the prophecy in Numbers 19. But you are right: will it bear out in the long run? We'll see.

"Does it primarily create emotional responses like excitement, fear or anger...". Maybe. It's a discussion. I don't see the problem. What constitutes "clear thinking" is also an opinion.

I would venture a guess, although I have no scriptural support for it, that if we're watching His face, it will not be a surprise when He comes.

Your guess is as good as mine.

In my opinion, the interesting thing about this "Red Heifer" article is that End Times Prophecy is on the mind of many, many people. Even if it's speculation. There are a lot of articles out there on the "Red Heifer". Also, all you have to do is listen to or read the news and it's obvious to me that "something is going on". This "click bait" may get people's attention. It may cause them to do some research they had never considered before. It may give the Lord an opening to touch their hearts.

I think it's important to get people's attention. The Lord can use a lot of things to do that...even "click bait".

Thanks for stopping by. I hope you will hang around, register for an account so we can keep talking.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

For what it's worth, here's another article on the red heifers: https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-...rrive-in-israel And here's a video from CBN news (along with some interesting comments from the Israeli PM at the beginning concerning the Palestinian state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG-1PY2IOiw Part about heifers starts around 9:45 to about 13:30

[OBW]

I know that I have make my thoughts known about this general subject before, and it was generally panned at the time. But I thought that on this rare visit I would say something about it again. But before I do, I must say that I do not deny prophecy, but what it is saying, whether literal or metaphorical, is really not so clear.

I'm clearly not going through all that has gone before, but the button that is supposed to take me to the post after the last one I read (a couple of months ago) took me to the last post instead.

From Nell (from two posts):

#242:

Coming soon: New version of the Internet WEB3

Already here: Cryptocurrency

- - - - -
#243:

In recent years a group of western Christians known as Boneh Israel has been working with officials from the Temple Institute to search for a perfect red heifer. A red heifer is necessary if Temple sacrifices are to be reinstituted, but one hasn't been seen in Israel for more than 2,000 years.

This is something that I have written about a few times over the years, because it directly relates to end times prophecies. For a long time, the search for a perfect red heifer seemed to be going nowhere, but now all of that has changed.

(I note that the portion in #243 was not Nell's words.)

First, for all the potential lawlessness of a decentralized, blockchain internet, it is not evidence of the return of Christ. Man has been lawless since the fall. We may think we have gotten better, but not really. It is too often just hiding behind masks of civility.

Second, cryptocurrency? As a major bank CEO has recently said, it is a ponzi scheme. Whether he is right or not, it is too volatile to be the decentralized currency that the Wiki article discusses. Besides, what would it have to do with the end times that dollars, pounds sterling, or any other currency cannot do?

Red heifers? Maybe a red herring? Do we think that the sacrificial system cannot be begun, ended, and begun again before the actual return of Christ? We saw the 6-day war in 1967 as a “clear sign” of the return of Christ before the end of the generation. Well, it has been 55 years and those of us in our 60s and even 70s would not have been the “generation” that would not pass away. That generation is rapidly disappearing. Reading one prophecy as types and another as literal facts that can be followed with mathematical certainty is not a sound method of interpretation.

From Unregistered:

The story link about the red heifers has no sources. It seems to be worded in a way common to conspiracy theory articles (or even advertising clickbait): It titillates with emotionally-laden possibilities. But it has no reliable sourcing of claims made. There is nothing verifiable. That is a red flag.

What brings the Lord back will not be the saints on jittery all-night internet rapture watch. It will be the saints choosing instead to watch in prayer, in bearing fruit, by gaining the oil. If we gained believers by excitement, we would lose them quickly. (Embarrassingly, I've had lots of experience bringing in college students who get excited at love feasts or conferences in the LR, we see them standing and shouting and calling on the Lord, their faces glowing. Wow!...and we never see them again).

This kind of thinking, that is, jumping to conclusions when we see an event that sounds similar to what we want to see, is not clear thinking. . . .

You are onto something here. Whether we can actively do anything that hastens the return of Christ is uncertain. But going up to mountain tops dressed in white, or congregating on the web in prayer, is not it. The former has occurred too many times with no results (except the creation of yet another Christian sect).

But the notions of bearing fruit and gaining oil are not a lot clearer. What is bearing fruit? The metaphor would suggest that it is not simply more branches for the vine, yet what we call fruit is too often just that. And as to oil, is “gaining more oil” a function in seeking oil, or is it the result of entirely non-oil related “activities?” Sort of like teaching “God’s economy” v teaching a host of right things that result in God’s economy. (That would be the logical analysis of that passage written to Timothy. Bad teachings result in discord while good teachings result in God’s economy.) The commandments on us are not “gain more oil.” They are love God and your neighbor as yourself; live justly; and so on. Is this more likely the source of oil?

And no matter what the answers rightly are, is it more important to seek to be certain about the actual timing of the return of Christ, or to live the kingdom life that was commanded of us? Which will better set us up for that time?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

...And no matter what the answers rightly are, is it more important to seek to be certain about the actual timing of the return of Christ, or to live the kingdom life that was commanded of us? Which will better set us up for that time?

1. is it more important to seek to be certain about the actual timing of the return of Christ, ... ?
We're not "seeking certainty". We're having a discussion. We get to do that. We are not seeking the "certainty" of what "no man knows".

or
2. to live the kingdom life that was commanded of us?
3. Which will better set us up for that time?

Can we not do both? Can we not have a discussion? Lets start with Matthew 24 to hear what Jesus commands us to do.

Matthew 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples were curious too! Jesus didn't tell them: Don't ask questions, just "live the kingdom life." Jesus gave them very practical answers:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
...
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
...
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
...
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
...
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

********************
It's interesting that the commands in Matthew 24 also include serious warnings about what it will be like if you're not "ready" or if you're not looking for Him...in an hour that he is not aware...

Another interesting thing...36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What does this mean: ...of that day and hour knoweth no man...? "Day and hour", but it doesn't say "year". I wonder why...? Maybe we are charged to have a more immediate vigil over what's going on in our world...daily and hourly. IMHO Don't wait for the years to pass by before you start to pay attention to the end times, but it's your call. Do what you think the Lord is telling you to do.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

It's interesting that the commands in Matthew 24 also include serious warnings about what it will be like if you're not "ready" or if you're not looking for Him...in an hour that he is not aware...

Another interesting thing...36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What does this mean: ...of that day and hour knoweth no man...? "Day and hour", but it doesn't say "year". I wonder why...? Maybe we are charged to have a more immediate vigil over what's going on in our world...daily and hourly. IMHO Don't wait for the years to pass by before you start to pay attention to the end times, but it's your call. Do what you think the Lord is telling you to do.

Nell

It is well accepted that the Book of Daniel provides detailed prophecies for Israel of both the 1st and 2nd coming of the Christ. Had Israel carefully read those prophecies, they would have known that the One dying on the day of Passover as the Lamb of God of that specific year (9:24-26) was the Christ, unless you were inclined to believe that one of the 2 thieves was He. The Jews, of course, would not have known "the hour."

Such will also be true of His 2nd return. We have 2 specific events to help us know the time, specifically the year and the month. First, the covenant confirmed between "He" (the Beast in Revelation) and Israel will signify the start of the final week of years, Daniel's 70th week allotted for Israel. Second, in the middle of this week of 7 years, "He" will end sacrifices and setup the "abomination of desolation" on a wing of the Temple. (Dan 9.27, 2 Thess 2.4, Matt 24.15)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is well accepted that the Book of Daniel provides detailed prophecies for Israel of both the 1st and 2nd coming of the Christ. Had Israel carefully read those prophecies, they would have known that the One dying on the day of Passover as the Lamb of God of that specific year (9:24-26) was the Christ, unless you were inclined to believe that one of the 2 thieves was He. The Jews, of course, would not have known "the hour."

Such will also be true of His 2nd return. We have 2 specific events to help us know the time, specifically the year and the month. First, the covenant confirmed between "He" (the Beast in Revelation) and Israel will signify the start of the final week of years, Daniel's 70th week allotted for Israel. Second, in the middle of this week of 7 years, "He" will end sacrifices and setup the "abomination of desolation" on a wing of the Temple. (Dan 9.27, 2 Thess 2.4, Matt 24.15)

Thanks, Ohio. There's so much going on in the world today, we even got a "sign in heaven" this week...maybe...or not.

My takeaway of the state of the union is that if you're looking to the Federal Government, any government, to take care of you and/or protect you, your hopes are seriously misplaced. God is still trying to get our attention. That's why he told us "be not deceived".

Thanks again--
Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have 2 specific events to help us know the time, specifically the year and the monthl

What calendar was Jesus using when he made his statement in Matthew about day & hour?

Originally Posted by Ohio

First, the covenant confirmed between "He" (the Beast in Revelation) and Israel will signify the start of the final week of years, Daniel's 70th week allotted for Israel.

Who is Israel?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What calendar was Jesus using when he made his statement in Matthew about day & hour?

Who is Israel?

Are you serious?

[Matt Anderson]

I think Jesus said the Mayan calendar in the lost book of the Americas. . But, if it is a serious question, please clarify and I'll give it a go to respond. Matt

[Nell]

Matt's previous posts on the topic of Israel

The Israel of God - Part 1


The Israel of God - Part 2


The Israel of God - Part 3

Conclusion

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Second, in the middle of this week of 7 years, "He" will end sacrifices and setup the "abomination of desolation" on a wing of the Temple. (Dan 9.27, 2 Thess 2.4, Matt 24.15)

Didn’t Jesus’s death and resurrection get rid of the need to attend a physical temple?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Didn’t Jesus’s death and resurrection get rid of the need to attend a physical temple?

For the church of God, yes!
For the Israel of God, no!

Daniel, Matthew, and 2 Thessalonians all speak of the Prince, the Beast, the Man of Sin, aka the Antichrist desecrating the Temple, the abomination of desolation.

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I think Jesus said the Mayan calendar in the lost book of the Americas. . But, if it is a serious question, please clarify and I'll give it a go to respond. Matt

Ahhhh! The Lost Tribe Trope. Do not be confused, bro.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

I cannot state anything definitive here on this 3rd question and associated comments. I just have questions and I keep them before the Lord asking for insight when and if the time is ever appropriate.

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions. My questions about Daniel 9:27 give you a glimpse of a few of these assumptions.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

YLT can help at times, but language idioms get lost. Let me paraphrase Proverbs, "In a multitude of translations, there is wisdom." E.g. "causes present to cease," makes no sense. Sounds like the Grinch who stole Christmas. The "present" here are offerings in the Temple.

Q1. "Make a covenant, strengthen a covenant, confirm a covenant" all are the same, though I put less credibility on YLT than the other translations for the above reasoning. The impact of this covenant will be to enable Israel to safely rebuilt their Temple. Obviously no temple exists in Jerusalem presently, so one must be built. The "covenant" maker here must be one who has great power, i.e. the "Beast" of Revelation, the "Man of Sin" of 2 Thessalonians, the "He" of Daniel 9, or the un-named in Matthew 24.

Q2. The "many" is Israel, perhaps over the objections of some in Israel. Daniel chapters 8-12 are written in Hebrew to Israel, in contrast to Daniel 2.4 thru chap 7 which are written in Aramaic to the Babylonians. Daniel 9.27 describes the final 70th week "decreed for your people and your holy city." (9.24) The context here makes all the difference in understanding this verse. Verse 9.27 cannot be taken out of context.

The "middle of the seven" is crucial when compared with Revelation. Half a week of 7 years is 3 1/2 years, "42 months, a time and times and half a time, 1260 days" all of which are mentioned there. That something monumental happens in the "middle of this week" is mentioned often.

Jesus warned us that false Christs will come. Most in Israel will consider the Antichrist Beast to be their long-awaited Messiah, and will be completely deceived by him. In his first few years of ruling, he will appear as god on earth, and all will marvel. Some, however, will voice their objections and probably be banished as conspiracy theorists propagating foreign intelligence, or some such.

Q3. I interpret Daniel 9.27 "abomination and desolation" by Jesus in Matt 24.15 and Paul in 2 Ths 2.4. Jesus said you will "see" this event, and I suspect this will be well-publicized on all the 24 hr cable news stations. This spectacular event will follow the Beast's miraculous recovery from what is probably an assassination attempt. Perhaps he will die, and be brought back to life. Paul says, "he seats himself in the Temple, proclaiming himself as god."

Your reference to the church age "Temple" of God is interesting, and not without consideration based on 2 Ths 2. The Thessalonians asked Paul concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he spoke of two distinct events which must precede His coming. The "apostasy" must come first, and the man of lawlessness must be revealed. This evil man will be revealed when he enters the Temple and "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship."

The "apostasy" must also include the many in the church of God. In the only other NT mention of this word, it is used to condemn Paul he departed from his Jewish religion. (Acts 21.21) Ralph Earle Word Meanings says this means "to forsake, a defection or a revolt. The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within and not from without." Reminds me of Paul's word "all in Asia have deserted me."


Trying times indeed. What sayeth you?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the church of God, yes!
For the Israel of God, no!

Daniel, Matthew, and 2 Thessalonians all speak of the Prince, the Beast, the Man of Sin, aka the Antichrist desecrating the Temple, the abomination of desolation.

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?

Which verse? Which church?

Paul mentions the "temple" in numerous places. Context determines what he is referring to.

2 Thessalonians 2.4 is indeed a physical temple in Jerusalem

I Corinthians 6.19 says our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2.21 says the entire church is growing into a holy temple in the Lord

I Corinthians 8.10 indicates that the heathens have idol temples

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

Just plain old heretics.

Nell

Since the temple in the Old Testament (old covenant) signified two things:

1) God’s dwelling place on earth.
2) Separation between God and man, due to the veil and sacrificial system.

Since under the new covenant, God is no longer dwells on earth in temples, such as a man built buildings, and there is no longer the separation between God and man through the work of the cross and the resurrection, can you please tell me why would a new manmade temple needs to be built?

Thank you.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which verse?

The verses you cited here:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which church?

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

The verses you cited here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?

Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Since the temple in the Old Testament (old covenant) signified two things:

1) God’s dwelling place on earth.
2) Separation between God and man, due to the veil and sacrificial system.

Since under the new covenant, God is no longer dwells on earth in temples, such as a man built buildings, and there is no longer the separation between God and man through the work of the cross and the resurrection, can you please tell me why would a new manmade temple needs to be built?

Thank you.

Currently, the nation of Israel is under the Old Covenant. Had they believed and received Jesus, then there would be no need for a physical Temple, as you said. But they have rejected their true Messiah, and are still waiting for Him. Presently all the materials for this new Temple are stored and ready for immediate construction. Their covenant with God and their Law requires a Temple to be built, and they have been waiting to rebuild their Temple since it was destroyed.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Thank you for your response.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Currently, the nation of Israel is under the Old Covenant. Had they believed and received Jesus, then there would be no need for a physical Temple, as you said. But they have rejected their true Messiah, and are still waiting for Him. Presently all the materials for this new Temple are stored and ready for immediate construction. Their covenant with God and their Law requires a Temple to be built, and they have been waiting to rebuild their Temple since it was destroyed.

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

So is the church is kind of a side kick to the “Israel”? Or better to say, is the church being held hostage because the Jews rejected Jesus? Do you also believe that ALL biological Jews dead or alive will be saved regardless of their belief in Christ while in this world? Had a member of the Recovery claim these things to me before. I don’t believe in 1000 years of “self improvement” ie Recovery purgatory, so where does that put biological Jews? Is there consequences for their unbelief just as there is consequences for all other nations or people for rejection of Jesus Christ?
Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

So is the church is kind of a side kick to the “Israel”? Or better to say, is the church being held hostage because the Jews rejected Jesus? Do you also believe that ALL biological Jews dead or alive will be saved regardless of their belief in Christ while in this world? Had a member of the Recovery claim these things to me before. I don’t believe in 1000 years of “self improvement” ie Recovery purgatory, so where does that put biological Jews? Is there consequences for their unbelief just as there is consequences for all other nations or people for rejection of Jesus Christ?
Thanks

Unregistered,
If you would like to continue to post, please register for forum membership by sending your request to: Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com. Please include your desired user name.

Thank you for your contributions to the forum. We hope to see you around for awhile.

Admin/Moderator

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

So is the church is kind of a side kick to the “Israel”? Or better to say, is the church being held hostage because the Jews rejected Jesus? Do you also believe that ALL biological Jews dead or alive will be saved regardless of their belief in Christ while in this world? Had a member of the Recovery claim these things to me before. I don’t believe in 1000 years of “self improvement” ie Recovery purgatory, so where does that put biological Jews? Is there consequences for their unbelief just as there is consequences for all other nations or people for rejection of Jesus Christ?
Thanks

Yes, please do register for further discussion. As an added benefit, you do not have to receive endless annoying emails like those I get from everyone else who demands my email address.

As a guiding principle in understanding the Bible, God's covenant to Abram/Abraham was to have children in number "like the sand of the sea and the stars of the heaven." (Genesis 22.17; Romans 9.27; 1st Corinthians 15.41) Thus Abraham's descendants are both heavenly and earthly. This point is often missed with younger Christians. The "sand" refers to the biological children of Israel. The "stars" refer to the gentile children of faith.

Perhaps other posters here could recommend some (non-LSM) reference books/reading material that could assist you on this topic. I just returned from an out of town family funeral and have another out of town family funeral next week to prepare for. UntoHim often recommends Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. Perhaps he has addressed this topic.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

Great post here. Just last night an old brother and I were discussing some of the extremes of Dispensational Theology, which we are more familiar with. Knowing diverse frameworks and comparing them with Scripture really helps us know the truth.

Originally Posted by Zezima

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

Thank you. I’m aware of the things that you mentioned to some extent. I guess I definitely don’t fall into hyper dispensational view like a lot of the members and people with the Recovery, or I guess any dispensational views to be clear. I should have read more posts at the beginning of this thread before I commented. Sorry

I definitely don’t fall into dispensationalism so I will refrain from comments any further. Thanks guys for even considering my questions.

********************************

Unregistered,
Sorry to see you go.
Admin/Moderator

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

...
It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms....

Another option is "if you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

We truly don't know such matters conclusively. Further, do we really need to determine what we believe regarding schools of thought, and such other doctrines? There are certain matters of the faith that are not negotiable. This discussion is not such. We're told to "watch and pray" and other good advice.

I have certain thoughts that I think may be headed in the right direction, but ultimately I have to say "I don't know for sure." Until the Lord tells me more, I think that's good enough. Keep asking Him questions.

Nell

[Nell]

Clay Christensen:
“Some time ago I had a conversation with a Marxist economist from China. He was coming to the end of a Fulbright fellowship here in Boston. I asked him if he had learned anything that was surprising or unexpected.’

Without any hesitation he said “Yeah…I had no idea how critical religion is to the functioning of democracy. The reason why democracy works ,” he said, “is not because the government is designed to oversee what everybody does. Democracy works because most people, most of the time voluntarily choose to obey the law.

In your past, most Americans attended a church or synagogue every week and were taught there by people they respected.”

My friend went on to say that “Americans follow these rules because they had come to believe that they weren’t just accountable to society, but they were accountable to God.”

He stated that “As religion loses its influence over Americans, what will happen to democracy? Where are the institutions that are going to teach the next generation of Americans that they too must voluntarily choose to obey the laws? …Because if you take away religion, you can’t hire enough police.”

‘If you take away religion, you can’t hire enough police.’
John Adams once said that the U.S. Constitution “was made only for a moral and religious people.”
Clay Christensen Harvard Prof: Democracy Doesn’t Work Without Religion
A Rhodes Scholar and the Kim B. Clark Professor of Business Administration at Harvard
********************************

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

...In your past, most Americans attended a church or synagogue every week and were taught there by people they respected.”

My friend went on to say that “Americans follow these rules because they had come to believe that they weren’t just accountable to society, but they were accountable to God.” ...
********************************

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

To respond to my own question, Americans were taught, not that they were accountable to their teachers, to "church" or to "religion", but that they are accountable to God.

Again, in THIS context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

I think it’s important to be reminded of and hold onto the words that Witness Lee spoke about America.

The time is short; the end is close. If
you know world history and the trend of
history, you will realize that it is unlikely
God would prepare another country to
be a power in this world for Him to take
yet another step. I believe that America
is the last power God will use for His
final move.

[Ohio]

The next “power” to be used will be the Beast of Revelation.

I just finished reading Canfield’s book, Lawlessness …. He is ex-LC, and has posted here before. He compared the American and French Revolutions of the late 18th century. The former had the goal of freedom, based on faith and the rule of law. The latter was an attempt to destroy all cultural norms, religion, laws, traditions, etc. — much like we are now seeing in the US.

The result was an evil destructive powerful ruler who nearly destroyed all of Europe. Napoleon Bonaparte.

[Nell]

I think it’s important to be reminded of and hold onto the words that Witness Lee spoke about America.

This WL quote became stagnant at his death in 1998. World events didn't stop at Lee's death, so I don't think he covered all the bases.

This quote also presumes that God needs another world power to take another step. It presumes that God's "final move" is not already underway. I believe America is under God's judgement now, and has been since perhaps September 11, 2001, if not January, 1973 when Roe v. Wade began the legalized mass murder of children.

The evidence of what Clay Christensen discussed with his Marxist friend from China is the apostasy of the American people including, to an extent, the American church. A Chinese Marxist can see it clearly, but the American people cannot.

Possibly January, 1973 was a tipping point. Since the U.S. Constitution is chartered "Of the people, by the people and for the people", legalized mass murder of children, as of today a staggering 63 million plus, children, the American people have heaped judgment upon themselves since 1973. The American church didn't object much. Why? A strong delusion?

Whatever the American people allows the government to enact, which is against God's nature, God's will, and God's plan, this is on the American people who allowed it. This can only provoke Him and His judgment. Judgment begins at the House of God.

Do you think that the current earthquakes (Turkey), volcano eruptions (Hawaii), pandemic (worldwide), famine (worldwide), violent weather patterns (US tornadic activity)...do you think this coincidence? It's true there have always been such things, but it doesn't seem to be on a global scale as it is now. What about that de-railed train in Ohio? What about those "signs in the sky"? What's going on? I don't know.

Now is not the time to look to the Federal Government for relief, protection and sound judgment. It really troubles me to see the America I love going down this path, but I cannot "not see" the hand of God. and His judgment unfolding like a scroll.

“As religion loses its influence over Americans, what will happen to democracy? Where are the institutions that are going to teach the next generation of Americans that they too must voluntarily choose to obey the laws?"

Is there any question that "religion" (God) has lost its influence over many, if not most, Americans? Is there any question that democracy is devolving into socialism, where God is given no place or space in the lives of many Americans today?

So...I keep thinking...what am I supposed to do? Apart from repenting for things in my life that shouldn't be there, praying for light, praying for God wake-up His people...what am I supposed to do? Apart from what I'm doing now (moderating a Christian forum), what am I supposed to do?

Truthfully, I won't know until He tells me, and I keep asking every day when something new pops up. For now, all I know to do is to keep telling the truth of what I see and hear from him, in fellowship with others. That includes, paying attention to what's going on. Watch. Pray. Look up!

Until then, I just live my life as a baseball fan(season tickets), a Dallas Cowboys fan, a photography fan (3 cameras) , etc. I have 3 sewing machines that do different things, 5 different OS laptop computers (retired network engineer), a ham radio...my motto is "have toys, will play". I think you get the idea. I'm not a prophecy nut (I don't think). I just want to be available to the Lord for whatever he has for me. Oh, and I do a little prepping. Worst case, I may have a nice donation for local food bank someday...so why not?

Hopefully, you will be willing to think differently from what you've always thought about these things.

Nell

[Nell]

Here’s a WLee quote from his Life Study of Revelation covering Rev. 9. It’s interesting to me because, though dated, he links the end times to China. Today China and the US are … whatever they are. His comments though don’t really imply an adversarial relationship, between “us and them” as clearly exists today.

II. TWO HUNDRED MILLION CAVALRY TROOPS
Verse 16 says, “And the number of the cavalry troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.” In order to kill the third part of men, the four angels will use two hundred million cavalry troops. The number of these horsemen is nearly that of the total population of the United States. The two hundred million horsemen will come from the rising of the sun (16:12), that is, from the east. The place on earth that produces the most horses is Mongolia. The Western world has invented so many modern methods of transportation, but these cavalry from the east will not use them. Instead, they will use horses. …

….I have been saved for more than fifty years. During the years since 1918 I have spent much time observing the world situation and studying the prophecies in the Bible. I can testify that no time has been closer to the fulfillment of the New Testament prophecy than today. Today’s world news is focused on the Middle East. Much of the daily news concerning the Middle East matches what is spoken in the Bible. This means that the Lord is keeping His word and that prophecies are now being fulfilled. Undoubtedly, we are very close to the time of the sixth seal, the main aspect of which is the great earthquake.

So, of course, we are closer now than then, and as of today, China seems to be a bigger player than the Middle East. Then there’s the massive earthquake in Turkey. There are no conclusions, other than “we’re closer today” and IMHO, something is going on. I can’t imagine the 200M horsemen…

Nell

[Zezima]

Nell, Do you think humans can dictate when God comes back or delay his coming, like we were taught in the Recovery?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Nell, Do you think humans can dictate when God comes back or delay his coming, like we were taught in the Recovery?

No.

I don't think the second coming has anything to do with what was taught in the non-Recovery. What I remember is that "bring the Lord back" was used almost like a tag line for a lot of other teachings..."if" we do this, "then" we will "bring the Lord back." It was also used somewhat to manipulate the behavior of the membership.

I don't think you mean "dictate" literally, regardless, I don't think anyone "dictates" to God. I further don't think Lee's teachings are authoritative and God is not bound by them.

2 Peter 3 gives us some direction, but nothing that correlates to Witness Lee's teachings. To me v. 14 maybe gives us the best advice: "be at peace with God". Then, v. 17 "don't get carried away with error."

If Lee's teachings motivate his followers to "be at peace with God" and to "don't get carried away with error..." That's one thing, but I don't think that's what's happening. It's like that "tag line" is being held over our/their heads.

2 Peter 3 does specify "the day of the Lord", not limited exclusively to his coming. A lot will be happening related to his return and God's final judgment.

The Day of the Lord 2 Peter 3
...
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? ...

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

What do you think?
Nell

[Zezima]

Not sure, something I’ve been considering. Verse 12 from Peter that you posted suggests it, at the same time it seems odd that if we do something then God will come.

Thanks for your response

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Not sure, something I’ve been considering. Verse 12 from Peter that you posted suggests it, at the same time it seems odd that if we do something then God will come.

Thanks for your response

I noticed that too; speed its coming. My thought is that in that verse, perhaps it's implied that maybe:
* living a holy and godly life speeds his coming
* looking forward to the day of God...speeds its coming.

However, it's possible that "looking forward" doesn't mean the same thing now as it did then. Today, the common meaning of "look forward" is anticipation of some happy, pleasant, desirable event (looking forward to the birth of a child, looking forward to baseball season (!), to spring, etc.)

Looking forward in 2 Peter 3, could be more literal. Looking forward simply because whatever is to come is "up next". Looking forward to what's going on literally in the heavens and on the earth.

Another question is the "day of God". The 2nd coming and the day of God aren't the same thing, are they? The day of God, in context of 2Peter3 describes the final judgment of the earth.

Nell

Revelation 16:13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[Nell]

I know what "woke" means, though I've never found a precise definition--it seemingly changes every day...it keeps getting worse. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" things. I watched a video yesterday that came as a surprise to me..."woke" had been described and prophecied by Isaiah from the actions of those who practiced it a long time ago. So "woke" is nothing new.

The KJV translates "how terrible it will be" as "Woe unto them".

NIV: Isaiah 5:18 How terrible it will be for those who continue to sin and lie about it! How terrible for those who keep on doing what is evil as if they were tied to it! (Perhaps they ARE "tied to it"...demonically.)
19 How terrible for those who say, “Let God hurry up and do what he says he will. We want to see it happen. Let us see the plan of the Holy One of Israel. We want to know what it is.” (Mocking God to His face.)
20 How terrible it will be for those who say that what is evil is good! How terrible for those who say that what is good is evil! How terrible for those who say that darkness is light and light is darkness! How terrible for those who say that what is bitter is sweet and what is sweet is bitter!
21 How terrible it will be for those who think they are wise! How terrible for those who think they are really clever!
22 How terrible it will be for those who are heroes at drinking wine! How terrible for those who are heroes at mixing drinks!
23 How terrible for those who take money to set guilty people free! How terrible for those who don’t treat good people fairly!
24 Flames of fire burn up straw. Dry grass sinks down into those flames.
Evil people will be like plants whose roots rot away. They will be like flowers that are blown away like dust. That’s because they have said no to the law of the Lord who rules over all. They have turned against the message of the Holy One of Israel.
25 So the Lord is angry with his people. He raises his hand against them and strikes them down. The mountains shake. The bodies of dead people lie in the streets like trash. Even then, the Lord is still angry. His hand is still raised against them.

Since I watch/listen/read the news, I could make a list, giving examples that match the verses above and naming names of the actors. I just didn't realize that Isaiah had prophecied the events of the world today a long time ago...right down to the mountains shaking.

I have a new perspective on "woke". What do you think?

Nell

[Nell]

CASHLESS SOCIETY?
Are we on the verge of a cashless society? How cool! Uh-oh...did the Bible prophecy a cashless society 2,000 years ago?

Revelation 13:16-18:
"He (the false prophet; Rev. 19:20) causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."

Could this refer to the current move toward a cashless society? If cash was still in use, would the “mark” be necessary? It doesn’t seem so. From time to time, I attend Major League Baseball games. The venue I attend is cashless. Totally. If I want to make a purchase I do so through my "smart phone" which connects with my “account” which contains my credit card information. If my phone cannot make a connection to…whatever…I can't park, or attend the game, even though I purchased a ticket. I can't buy food. No paper tickets and no cash.

I'm sure you likely have your own examples of cashless venues? Imagine what life would be like if your cash was “no good”…anywhere. Could this situation be considered parallel to Revelation 13:17 ... that we cannot buy or sell unless we … have a smart phone?

SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL?
Is the “mark of the beast” totally a spiritual scripture reference? We see two physical locations stating the mark will be one place or the other: a hand or forehead which is not spiritual…is it?

ANIMALS WITH RFID MICROCHIPS:
Animals have been successfully tracked with implanted microchips for a long time. What about humans? Many today cannot consider "life as we know it" without constant possession and usage of their smart phones...especially children and young people. The rationale of implanting animals became a major necessity as well as a convenience. Is the next step to implant people with a microchip which contains features of the smart phone..., i.e., the "smart wallet"?

What do you think? Is there a case here?
More later...
Nell
________
Another thought...in a cashless society, what if the Internet becomes compromised to the extent that digital/electronic communication is impossible. Wow...what if digital communication, i.e., the grid, were compromised today (4/11/23)?

[Ohio]

This is already happening in Sweden.

Initially, like the vaccine, many will take the chip voluntarily, believing in all the many promised “benefits.” Eventually it will be forced on the rest of us. The Covid Vax was definitely not the “charagma mark,” but the trial run for something far more sinister to come. The good thing is that the Bible indicates that the ultimate decision to accept the charagma of the Beast will be ours to make. Before the actual return of Jesus Christ, it seems that all mankind will have some mark of ownership, either of God or of the Beast.

Recently, I was considering the pending apostasy prophesied in 2 Thess 2. A study of this word indicates that this apostasy will not be a rebellion from without, but rather a forsaking of the faith by many within the church. Could it be that the decision to accept the chip, under great economic and political pressure and societal coercion, causes many to abandon their faith? As with all disobedience (remember how Moses forsook the temporary enjoyment of sin in Hebrews 11), there are always short term benefits, but long term loss.

[countmeworthy]

Sort of derailing here. Sort of…. You know what I the unforgivable sin, the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is?

Tic toc tic toc….

The mark of the beast. No one can ever repent from taking it. I have heard the person who takes it becomes a hybrid. Whether or not that’s true, scripture is clear, you are doomed if you take the mark.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Sort of derailing here. Sort of…. You know what I the unforgivable sin, the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is?

Tic toc tic toc….

The mark of the beast. No one can ever repent from taking it. I have heard the person who takes it becomes a hybrid. Whether or not that’s true, scripture is clear, you are doomed if you take the mark.

I’m not so sure. I tend not to look at things homogeneously, believing “with every trial God will make a way out.” I think some will naively take the mark, regret it with great remorse, and then somehow remove it. Perhaps even obedience to Jesus’ command, “If your right hand makes you sin, cut it off, and throw it away.” Revelation 14.9 does say “to get the mark AND worship the beast,” as if both are required.

During the vax mandates, I told lots of people that it sounds like what will happen when the Antichrist makes everyone get the mark of the Beast. Few agreed, most listened, some thought I was crazy, but most thought there was no connection. Gen Z-ers today think cash is stupid and inconvenient. The “mark” will be marketed as safe, convenient, free, and even trendy. What’s not to like?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I’m not so sure. I tend not to look at things homogeneously, believing “with every trial God will make a way out.” I think some will naively take the mark, regret it with great remorse, and then somehow remove it. Perhaps even obedience to Jesus’ command, “If your right hand makes you sin, cut it off, and throw it away.” Revelation 14.9 does say “to get the mark AND worship the beast,” as if both are required.

During the vax mandates, I told lots of people that it sounds like what will happen when the Antichrist makes everyone get the mark of the Beast. Few agreed, most listened, some thought I was crazy, but most thought there was no connection. Gen Z-ers today think cash is stupid and inconvenient. The “mark” will be marketed as safe, convenient, free, and even trendy. What’s not to like?

No one really knows what the mark will be. But I do think that people will easily accept the mandate. Vaccine mandates have made it easy for people to accept everything and anything the government tells us to do.

One thing is certain. Stay faithful to the Lord, to the Holy Spirit’s leading, Our God will protect us and keep us safe. I believe it because our God has kept me safe time and time again.

May we all experience God’s Love, Goodness and Mercy that follows us all the days of our lives.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is already happening in Sweden.

Initially, like the vaccine, many will take the chip voluntarily, believing in all the many promised “benefits.” Eventually it will be forced on the rest of us. The Covid Vax was definitely not the “charagma mark,” but the trial run for something far more sinister to come. The good thing is that the Bible indicates that the ultimate decision to accept the charagma of the Beast will be ours to make. Before the actual return of Jesus Christ, it seems that all mankind will have some mark of ownership, either of God or of the Beast.

Recently, I was considering the pending apostasy prophesied in 2 Thess 2. A study of this word indicates that this apostasy will not be a rebellion from without, but rather a forsaking of the faith by many within the church. Could it be that the decision to accept the chip, under great economic and political pressure and societal coercion, causes many to abandon their faith? As with all disobedience (remember how Moses forsook the temporary enjoyment of sin in Hebrews 11), there are always short term benefits, but long term loss.

Your link above also has similar information on implants being used in India.
Biometrics in India

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL?
Is the “mark of the beast” totally a spiritual scripture reference? We see two physical locations stating the mark will be one place or the other: a hand or forehead which is not spiritual…is it?

What is the beast?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

No one really knows what the mark will be. But I do think that people will easily accept the mandate. Vaccine mandates have made it easy for people to accept everything and anything the government tells us to do.

One thing is certain. Stay faithful to the Lord, to the Holy Spirit’s leading, Our God will protect us and keep us safe. I believe it because our God has kept me safe time and time again.

May we all experience God’s Love, Goodness and Mercy that follows us all the days of our lives.

Yes indeed, and the Lord has miraculously cared for me too, but there’s no guarantee of safety during the tribulation, otherwise the book of Revelation would not speak of “loving not your life even unto death.”

I know way too many Christians believe rapture and a great revival is coming. The NT, however, never speaks of this revival, rather Paul warned the Thessalonians that Apostasy is coming. Why would Christians forsake the faith if we all will be so well cared for? Why would Jesus warn us of being deceived by false teachers and false prophets.

We are now living in a time of great deception. The Bible says that God Himself will send a strong delusion to those who refuse to love the truth. 2 Ts 2.11

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What is the beast?

Revelation chapter 13 is good place to start reading.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What is the beast?

I think it’s a system of control under the authority of the powers that be, the elitists of the world, the Illuminati, the religious institutions especially the Jesuits. All super powerful entities.

*** BEAST OF THE SEA = political system by which the AC will come out from (Revelation 13:1-10)

*** BEAST OF THE EARTH = religious system from where the false prophet comes out from. This beast performs great signs and wonders and miracles (Revelation 13:11-18). This beast issues the mark of the beast. And points people to worship Beast of the sea


Just my thoughts

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What is the beast?

Z,

What about you? What, or who, is the beast?

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Z,

What about you? What, or who, is the beast?

Nell

My interpretation is vastly different but I was asking to understand what it means to others who don’t hold the same view. Anyways, my understanding is the beasts in revelation are satan & the state. The beasts in revelation mimic God and try to be God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

My interpretation is vastly different but I was asking to understand what it means to others who don’t hold the same view. Anyways, my understanding is the beasts in revelation are satan & the state. The beasts in revelation mimic God and try to be God.

I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man, not just one who is against Christ, but one who will claim to be Christ Himself, the long awaited Messiah of Israel. Of course, the Beast will mimic the Lord and try to be God, probably using AI to his full advantage.

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh. Both serve 3.5 years, performing signs and wonders, speaking wisdom and truth. Both die, and then "rise" from the dead. (The beast will rise like Lazarus, only to be tossed into the lake of fire when the Son of Man does appear.)

Initially, at least for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, the Beast will be everything that Jesus Christ was "supposed to be" - powerful leader bringing peace and security to the world. Most of the world will believe that Jesus Christ was a failure, and now we have the "real" Christ. They will all marvel at him, saying "who is like the beast?" Unlike Jesus, who only appeared in Israel, this Beast will appear to the entire world.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man, not just one who is against Christ, but one who will claim to be Christ Himself, the long awaited Messiah of Israel. Of course, the Beast will mimic the Lord and try to be God, probably using AI to his full advantage.

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh. Both serve 3.5 years, performing signs and wonders, speaking wisdom and truth. Both die, and then "rise" from the dead. (The beast will rise like Lazarus, only to be tossed into the lake of fire when the Son of Man does appear.)

Initially, at least for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, the Beast will be everything that Jesus Christ was "supposed to be" - powerful leader bringing peace and security to the world. Most of the world will believe that Jesus Christ was a failure, and now we have the "real" Christ. They will all marvel at him, saying "who is like the beast?" Unlike Jesus, who only appeared in Israel, this Beast will appear to the entire world.

Clear and very good explanation Ohio !

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh.

Are there any verses that indicate the AC will claim to be the Messiah? And do you think the Jews in general will belive him?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Are there any verses that indicate the AC will claim to be the Messiah? And do you think the Jews in general will believe him?

Matt 24.3-5: "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many."

Matt 24.23: "At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Obviously Israel, especially as the end of the age approaches, will be looking for their long-promised Messiah. Actually the Bible never refers to this person as "THE Antichrist," rather by various other descriptors.

Daniel 9.27 refers to him as the Prince. "He [the Prince of the restored Roman empire, the forth of the Beasts in Daniel] will make a treaty with the many [referring to most of those in Israel, but not all] for one week [referring to a 7 year period of time.] In the middle of the week [referring to 3.5 years after the covenant was made] he [referring to the Prince] will put an end to sacrifice and offering. [these are Levitical animal sacrifices] And at the temple [indicting that the temple must have been rebuilt] he [the Prince, "who was not, and now is" according to Revelation 17.8] will set up an abomination that causes desolation, [referred to by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24.15] until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” [according to Rev 19.19-20]

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When we typically speak of “The End Times, ” we speak of major events prophesied in scripture. Many of these center on Israel. Just read thru the whole Bible, and see if you agree with me.

For approximately 1900 years, the status of the nation of Israel was “deceased.” Many, many had predicted the end of the world before that, yet there will be no end until certain realities about Israel happened. For example, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, and Daniel 9 all correspond and point to “someone” exalting himself in the temple of God, and desecrating it. Jesus Himself mentions this major event will occur in the future, so it could not have happened already. Neither did Vespasian nor his son Titus fit the description.

How could this happen without the nation of Israel (1948), and without the city of Jerusalem (1967) recognized as their capital (2018)? Yet these events, against all odds, have already occurred!

And how can this happen without their Temple rebuilt with the Ark of the Covenant?

Recently I came across an old friend who now believes that the prophecies in Revelation, in their entirety, occurred already in the 1st Century. This is called Preterism or Preterist Theology. There are also some modified Preterist viewpoints.

Even the great church historian Philip Schaff espoused this view. Beginning in the 17th century, when Israel was uninhabitable desert, preterism seemed to be a reasonable explanation for all the prophecies in the NT. As such, all these major end-time events occurred before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Since we now see Israel and Jerusalem come back to life, and so many other Biblical prophecies on the verge of fulfillment, it's difficult to explain how anyone could seriously embrace this view any more.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man.

I’m not ruling this view out, but when was the last time you saw a man “two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon”?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

I’m not ruling this view out, but when was the last time you saw a man “two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon”?

Do you want me to name names? These words in Revelation 13 are metaphorical, but not hyperbolic. Do you ever watch the news? Things are only getting worse. People love lies and hate the truth. Eventually this world will provide an eager audience when these 2 Beasts appear on the scene.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These words in Revelation 13 are metaphorical, but not hyperbolic..

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?

Here is an excellent example of the author, Carol Yoakum, who did extensive study of world history in parallel with Daniel 7 in her paper on Prophecy Fulfilled, written in 2017. Carol has answered the question "metaphor for what?" by highlighting the metaphorical nature of prophecy with parallels of literal, factual, fulfillment of the prophecy.

Ohio may have further answer to your question.

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

This prophecy matches Germany in every detail. Nazi Germany was a lion, the most deadly enemy in Jewish history. It killed six million. The lion with eagle's wings is a picture of the German blitzkriegs, which had the speed of an eagle with the power of a lion.

The wings must also represent Germany's eastern and western fronts. The Soviet Union plucked off the eastern wing, and the western Allies plucked off the western wing. Then it was made to stand on two feet like a man. Germany made a remarkable economic recovery after the war. The whole country was rebuilt, and it now has the strongest economy in Europe. And it was given a man's heart. After the war the people turned away from Nazism. The Berlin airlift in 1948 helped to turn their hearts toward their former enemies. The "candy bombers" won over the children. Germany has been a U.S. ally ever since.

Adolf Hitler was a forerunner of the antichrist. He was the lion's mouth, persuading the masses. He believed the Jews were conspiring to take over the world, and the Holocaust was his attempt to remove them in order to make way for a German thousand-year reich. Like the antichrist, he had no respect for treaties (Daniel 9:27). They were just pieces of paper to use deceitfully to accomplish his purpose.

Like the antichrist, he (Hitler) had a false prophet. Joseph Goebbels, his Minister of Propaganda, caused the people to worship Hitler. As the antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire together, so also Hitler and Goebbels were together in the Berlin bunker and died just one day apart.

A brief mention of Revelation 13:1

Daniel's prophecy in Revelation
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Revelation 13:1
The fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 appears in Revelation, but the first three beasts are notably absent. These three were not ancient empires ... . Nor will they come at the very end of the age, for their stories are not told in the book of Revelation. Their stories are written in modern history.

Hope this helps.
Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here is an excellent example of the author, Carol Yoakum, who did extensive study of world history in parallel with Daniel 7 in her paper on Prophecy Fulfilled, written in 2017. Carol has answered the question "metaphor for what?" by highlighting the metaphorical nature of prophecy with parallels of literal, factual, fulfillment of the prophecy.

Ohio may have further answer to your question.

A brief mention of Revelation 13:1

Hope this helps.
Nell

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

To clarify, I’m seeking to understand how to determine if something is metaphorical or not. If the beasts are metaphorical, why isn’t the mark? Genuinely asking how you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

To clarify, I’m seeking to understand how to determine if something is metaphorical or not. If the beasts are metaphorical, why isn’t the mark? Genuinely asking how you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t.

The words/prophecies of the Bible are spiritually discerned. If there is a "how to" answer, I don't know what it is. I know I wouldn't dismiss, out of hand, what might be a precursor to something prophecied. Also, I know for sure, we should be reading the news today with spiritual eyes.

Before I started this topic, I began reading various passages of scripture that I thought might fit what I wanted to know. I had been bothering the Lord to help me. I kept telling Him I didn't understand. I had been looking at current events in the news and researching what others were saying about what's going on. I was trying to overlay prophecies in my mind from the Revelation, Daniel, and other prophets to fit all the pieces together.

When I started reading Carol's paper, I was amazed. After so much digging, this brought things together for me. I learned something from her, and from the Lord. She put prophecy and history together in a simple way.

Unconsciously, I guess I personally approach most scriptural prophetic images as metaphors...then set about scouring history, current events and future events that would potentially confirm or deny the metaphor as prophetic words.

A couple of examples, the prophecy of coming earthquakes and signs in the heavens. There has been a significant uptick in earthquakes in the last few years. Could this be a precursor of what is coming? Here's a new one that popped up for me on April 8...a couple of weeks ago.... On April 8, 2024 there will be a total solar eclipse, visible in Mexico, the US, and Canada...North America. Looking at the projected path, the best visibility will include my house in North Texas!

Are these two "events" prophetic fulfillments? No. But...the propecy IS there, and these events are probably/possibly a precursor of what is to come. One day the metaphor for the prophetic signs will be manifest.

I hope this helps.
Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?

For example, Revelation and Daniel both speak of a number of “beasts.” Some commentators say these are empires, and some say they are certain individuals. They both have their points, and their views. I try to discern which is more faithful to the scripture, and in many cases both are correct. In other words, the “beasts” refer to both the leader and his empire, often determined by the context.

When reading these books, we need to be like detectives. We must gather the verses and study. Often, I come up with a “hunch,” an understanding of the facts, much like a detective gathers known evidence and tries to solve a “crime,” developing a theory of what has happened. Perhaps the “hunch” comes from pieces of others’ writings. Then I go back and try to fit all the verses into my interpretation of events. If that fails, try another. Does this make sense?

In this way, we are handling the scripture like a “craftsman,” rightly dividing the word of God. I learned this method years ago from Dr. Philip Comfort, and it has always served me well.

[OBW]

And some say that the beasts are shrubberies. ("Bring me a shrubbery! One that looks nice. And not too expensive.")

The question that I ask is whether thinking one version of what a beast is v another version has any significance to my living today? Might the important thing be to understand that things get more difficult? (They always will.) And that we should be ready to live as we have been charged no matter what we face?

I know.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

...
The question that I ask is whether thinking one version of what a beast is v another version has any significance to my living today? Might the important thing be to understand that things get more difficult? (They always will.) And that we should be ready to live as we have been charged no matter what we face?

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Significance to your living today aside, hearing the words of prophecy is hardly a dead horse, since we are charged to read and hear the words and keep these words ...why? "...for the time is at hand". If you listen to the news today, why not listen to the words of the prophets? Their message seems to be a “heads up"!

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Significance to your living today aside, hearing the words of prophecy is hardly a dead horse, since we are charged to read and hear the words and keep these words ...why? "...for the time is at hand". If you listen to the news today, why not listen to the words of the prophets? Their message seems to be a “heads up"!

Nell

Some fine folks think that the words of Graeme Edge and Billy Joel are worthy of our attention, and they may well be, but we have also been promised heavenly blessing just by reading the words of Revelation.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

"...for the time is at hand".

And it has been for 2,000 years.

But are we to read it as a challenge to understand, connecting dots like strands of DNA, then debating what the imagery literally means? Don't the plethora of writings on the details evidence enough that getting it right is not the point? Each has a different take on it.

But is finding a roadmap through the end times the point?

Or is it the reminder that it will touch us all in some way whether we are alive at that time, or have "fallen asleep" long before? A graphic reminder to never assume tomorrow?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

And it has been for 2,000 years.

But are we to read it as a challenge to understand, connecting dots like strands of DNA, then debating what the imagery literally means? Don't the plethora of writings on the details evidence enough that getting it right is not the point? Each has a different take on it.

But is finding a roadmap through the end times the point?

Or is it the reminder that it will touch us all in some way whether we are alive at that time, or have "fallen asleep" long before? A graphic reminder to never assume tomorrow?

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

This is a really simple verse. No need to overthink it, or become skeptical about His timeline. How ‘bout we just read, hear and keep, like the verses say? There is the blessing.

Meanwhile, ask him if he has something in mind for you to do. Do what he tells you. If he doesn’t have anything for you to do, live the life he has for you as best you know how. After all, it’s about Him. We don’t have to figure it out. But, we are charged with a task that comes with a blessing. I guess that’s ‘kinda what he does.

You don’t have to read the words of prophecy. Your call. Some of us are curious (me for one). Some are afraid and call these discussions “fear mongering” (not me). Regardless, this is a place for discussions, so that’s what we do, freely.

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a really simple verse. No need to overthink it, or become skeptical about His timeline. How ‘bout we just read, hear and keep, like the verses say? There is the blessing.

That seems to run contrary to all the discussion about who anyone thinks the beast is. Or talk about Illuminati. Or talk about uncertianties and assigning weights of probability to them. (Just a few examples from scanning quickly back through the thread and stopping randomly three or four times. I didn't need to cull out posts that didn't seem to be digging into solutions rather than "just reading."

I agree that just reading it is a good thing. And I never said otherwise.

And I was never skeptical about His timeline. Just our version of it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

You don’t have to read the words of prophecy. Your call. Some of us are curious (me for one). Some are afraid and call these discussions “fear mongering” (not me). Regardless, this is a place for discussions, so that’s what we do, freely.

Nell

“You may be right, he may be crazy.”

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

That seems to run contrary to all the discussion about who anyone thinks the beast is. Or talk about Illuminati. Or talk about uncertianties and assigning weights of probability to them. (Just a few examples from scanning quickly back through the thread and stopping randomly three or four times. I didn't need to cull out posts that didn't seem to be digging into solutions rather than "just reading."

I agree that just reading it is a good thing. And I never said otherwise.

And I was never skeptical about His timeline. Just our version of it.

Duly noted.

Nell

[Nell]

This week I found a movie on Fubo: Before the Wrath It's available other places. I've transcribed part of the opening comments below: (emphasis added)

It’s been 2000 years since the final prophecies were recorded, and today the foundation for the convergence of nearly every prophetic sign foretold and the remaining Biblical prophecies have never been more prominent. As a result, a recent rise in debate regarding the signs of the times has led to growing division regarding when the Messiah will return. After all, if the events prophesied within the ancient records are indeed to come to pass, then knowing the timing of the Lord’s return would be of great importance.

The timing is a real hot-button, especially among religious people, Christians and what the like. We love predictability. We want to know when He’s going to be coming back.

The conflict, the disagreement, the contention over the timing of the rapture, and particularly in the last ten years, has gone off the charts.

Instead of saying “my how they love one another” as they said of the early church, now today they say of the church, “my how they fight with one another”.

Recent findings from organizations, such as Lifeway Research, confirm that the infighting among Christians is deepening.

In one of our surveys we asked when they thought the rapture might occur:
36% (the largest group) though it might occur “pre-tribulation”.
4% believe it will happen in the middle (of the tribulation)
18% believe the rapture will happen at the end of the tribulation.
13% believe in “other views”, and
4% are “not sure”.
25% the remaining, a growing statistic, no longer believe in a literal rapture at all.

Why is this happening?

There is a sobering discussion around the 25%, in the church, who no longer believe in a literal rapture. At least I understood that the 25% were in the church. I could be wrong.

I really like this movie. It's well done and contains an interesting and different point of view. I couldn't find any deviation to scriptural truth. I'm watching it again...just in case!

Most of the movie covers (spoiler alert) a wedding in Galilee (not Canaan). I hope you find it somewhere and take a look.

Before the Wrath

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

This week I found a movie on Fubo: Before the Wrath It's available other places. I've transcribed part of the opening comments below: (emphasis added)

There is a sobering discussion around the 25%, in the church, who no longer believe in a literal rapture. At least I understood that the 25% were in the church. I could be wrong.

I really like this movie. It's well done and contains an interesting and different point of view. I couldn't find any deviation to scriptural truth. I'm watching it again...just in case!

Most of the movie covers (spoiler alert) a wedding in Galilee (not Canaan). I hope you find it somewhere and take a look.

Before the Wrath

Nell

Nell, I would love to discuss this topic further, but it might engender further conflicts on the forum. On my part, I will only post out of love and concern for the children of God.

For example, recently we joined a church with other family members, long-standing in their church. The Bible Study before Worship moved onto the Rapture and His 2nd Advent. Just asking questions about their Pre-Trib demands got us into trouble. Prior to this Bible Study, I had really not studied this topic since the mid-70's.

That recent study by Christianity Today was introduced, "1/3 of today's Pastors (36%) believe in Pre-Trib Rapture!" So I asked, "what about the other 2/3?" Later on I heard, "Don't worry! Nothing in Revelation applies to us, since we will all be gone!" So I asked, "what about the numerous martyrs in Revelation and v. 22.16?" The final words were mocking, "if you want to stick around for God's judgment, then have at it!" Privately I asked, "if I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then so many will be ill-prepared for what may come." He answered, "that's a risk I'm willing to take."

They rejected further personal discussions, and basically applied Romans 16.17.

I'll try to find the movie. Thanks.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, I would love to discuss this topic further, but it might engender further conflicts on the forum. On my part, I will only post out of love and concern for the children of God.

For example, recently we joined a church with other family members, long-standing in their church. The Bible Study before Worship moved onto the Rapture and His 2nd Advent. Just asking questions about their Pre-Trib demands got us into trouble. Prior to this Bible Study, I had really not studied this topic since the mid-70's.

That recent study by Christianity Today was introduced, "1/3 of today's Pastors (36%) believe in Pre-Trib Rapture!" So I asked, "what about the other 2/3?" Later on I heard, "Don't worry! Nothing in Revelation applies to us, since we will all be gone!" So I asked, "what about the numerous martyrs in Revelation and v. 22.16?" The final words were mocking, "if you want to stick around for God's judgment, then have at it!" Privately I asked, "if I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then so many will be ill-prepared for what may come." He answered, "that's a risk I'm willing to take."

They rejected further personal discussions, and basically applied Romans 16.17.

I'll try to find the movie. Thanks.

Thanks Ohio. Posting with love and concern for the bretheren is all we ask of our poster children on the forum. Feel free to discuss.

I hope you can find "Before the Wrath". It's different from any movie I've seen on the end times--it's much more than that. It tells a beautiful story set in the culture of Gallilea.

Nell

[Nell]

"Before our story can begin, we need to first understand that Jesus wasn’t simply a Jew. Specifically, He was a Galilean. Not only that, Jesus’ disciples were all Galileans as well. They were Galileans from just about every walk of life. A fisherman, a tax collector, Jesus assembled these together. There is a great reason why. They would be spoken to (by Jesus) in the Galilean vernacular. Even though the region shared the same culture, the Galileans developed customs that were unique only to them.

Why is this important? Because Jesus used people’s cultures to more deeply communicate the spiritual nature of God. He used words and symbols and analogies and parables for them to understand.

You see the Sermon on the Mount. Speaking to them in ways they can understand. He is speaking to them about being fishers of men. Why would you use that analogy unless you knew these were fishermen?

Everything he said was based on the life he lived, the culture he belonged to.

I love this! Everything he said was based on the life he lived, the culture he belonged to. Why?

When he talks to me, he talks to me where I am, in the life I live...what matters to me...whatever is going on in my life is important to him.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions.

Matt, I wholeheartedly agree with this old post. And this weighs on my heart.

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

So I examined this word apostasia in all my Bible study aids:

• The word occurs only here and Acts 21.21 where Paul was accused of being "apostate from Moses"
• The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within the church rather than from without
• It must arise from the Jews or apostate Christians, either of whom might be said to fall away from God
• Politically this word would be used of a "rebel," but religiously it is used only of an "apostate"
• Signifies not the act, but the actual state of apostasy
• Apostasy involves capitulation to heretical beliefs as an eschatological phenomenon; capitulation is a surrender under certain terms or conditions
• Signifies apostasy from the faith
• Apostasy implies a falling away from a position that can be fallen from; not a falling into sin, from which grace can recover, but a relinquishing of faith

All my study was confirmed by Paul's precise prophetic word from God:

"But the Spirit expressly says that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith, they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. - I Tim 4.1"

Needless to say, this study has unsettled me to this day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Ohio. Posting with love and concern for the bretheren is all we ask of our poster children on the forum. Feel free to discuss.

I hope you can find "Before the Wrath". It's different from any movie I've seen on the end times--it's much more than that. It tells a beautiful story set in the culture of Gallilea.

Nell

I did find this video "Before the Wrath" and there are many things I liked about what was presented. There was enough there that it demands a second viewing, and maybe a third.

Can you believe that those folks would actually prepare for a wedding in that manner? Only God's miraculous behind-the-scenes sovereignty could enable such a custom to develop over time, with the definite goal of presenting future events, the marriage of His First Born. Pretty incredible, eh?

It's kind of similar to God demanding Abraham to sacrifice his long-promised son Isaac on Mount Moriah. That old Genesis story by itself borders on the absurd, like some incredulous myth, or perhaps by a deranged imagination, u_n_l_e_s_s . . .

God desired to give us an actual real life story of faith to help us understand His incredible love for His own Son, and how one day He would allow His Son to be horribly slain on a cross for our sins. "God so loved the world ..."

[Nell]

Well said, Ohio. Incredible indeed. Such a contrast in wedding planning today!

So many beautiful pictures in God's word, and this is only a few. Reminds me of the hymn lyrics: "the Lord has yet more light and truth to break forth from his word."

It's also an encouragement to look back on our own lives to see the picture of what he has done to win our hearts. The picture for me, looking back, was the appreciation for his word, and the truth of his word. I credit Him for this gift...no one else. Truly spiritual gifts are from God....where credit is due. All other "gifts" must be judged by the fruit produced.

I know that not everyone is on the road to recovery from being in, or in many cases being born and raised in---what is erroneously called the "Lord's Recovery." I pray that will change.

Nell

I'm watching it again too.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Significance to your living today aside, hearing the words of prophecy is hardly a dead horse, since we are charged to read and hear the words and keep these words ...why? "...for the time is at hand". If you listen to the news today, why not listen to the words of the prophets? Their message seems to be a “heads up"!

Nell

An exercise in missing the point.

I did not say that I have no desire to read it. Or hear it. Or that anyone else should do neither. I said that reading it with a decoder ring — any decoder ring — to figure out the details of what all those types and figures mean is an exercise in missing the point.

I find it interesting that there is no charge to figure out who the sheep and the goats are. And it would appear that we are not put in charge of separating sheep from goats. That is God's job. I realize that if it is as simple as seeing fluffy, wooly sheep and relatively lean, scruffy, horned goats, then we could do it. But the clear distinction must not be so obvious because we don't just separate ourselves. Or help God with the task.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation is a complex view of both the "long game" and the "end game" in terms that are designed to keep us alert. Not for the purpose of giving us a chance to make an A+ in metaphor deciphering, but for the purpose of ensuring we are ready when our time comes. That may be at the actual end-times (whenever that happens) or when each of us dies in whatever way we leave this sphere.

And being ready is not about knowing the apocryphal prophecies found in Revelation, but in being spurred on to live the life we have been reborn to live. And Revelation is part of what spurs us on. Not the timing of the "rapture" or the position on figurative v literal understanding of things, but the realization that there is a cosmic war that is going on and will go on until it is all over and that we have a choice where we will ultimately find ourselves in that war.

And what we can do about it is to go back to the roots of our calling and live this life with the next in mind.

[Nell]

Thank you for your opinion.

Nell

[Ohio]

Yes, you do have a valid point. There are those who argue eschatology and never pay attention to their walk. Sadly, I and my gospel have been hurt by a few of these.

I believe we have been charged to both have a healthy walk and know the depths of His word.

Why do Christians know so much detail and stats about their favorite sports team, or their favorite music, or their favorite programs, or whatever, but see little value in applying this same long-term diligence to their Bible?

[Nell]

Interesting quote from the video:

Jesus said when he comes back, will he even find faith on the earth? We know that in the last days there’s going to be a diminishing of people believing. I believe what’s happened in America is the westernized version of, can I say, a “man-made” Christianity?

Christianity is failing. It’s failing in faith. It’s failing in its ability to engage the culture. It’s failing to be ready to be about our Father’s business. It’s failing in evangelism. Why? There’s no sense of urgency. So we are living in a time when there are those saying they believe in the Bible and they believe in Jesus. I have to ask a question “What Bible are you reading?” and “Which Jesus are you talking about?”

[OBW]

I hear you.

There is no true sense of urgency. And some of the urgency that is there is a substitute for the real thing. And even where there is a claim of belief but no outward urgency, the evidence sometimes might suggest little or no real belief.

Just a social religion that borrows from the Bible.

And, for better or worse, the sum total of all who claim belief is shrinking. There are arguments that it is just those who don't really believe that are dropping their claims, but that is not certain.

[Nell]

When you look at the whole picture, the Galileans are really the key to understanding the why and what of the second coming of Christ.

Jesus used this illustration that they knew so intimately, over and over and over again. That you have a bride who is loved by a bridegroom, who is betrothed to this bridegroom. The bridegroom is going to make a covenant with her and then he’s going to go away.

And eventually, when they don’t know, he’s going to come back and take her to be with him where he is. This is an amazing thing. It all stems from what the Galileans understood and Jesus talked to the Galileans like they were Galileans so that they would understand what he meant when he said “this is what it’s going to be like when I return”.

Wow.

Nell

[Nell]

One of the speakers (Jack Hibbs) at one point says this:

59 minutes in:
“So you’ve got the parable of those with oil in their lamp. You’ve got ten of them. All ten started, but not all ten finished. At the time of the midnight cry they all jumped up and trimmed their lamps. But only five had enough oil to continue on.

This is key. Symbolically in Scripture, the oil is reference to the Holy Spirit in your life. So you can be a believer. Jesus said “these are they who believed for awhile”. It doesn’t mean you are born again to believe. Has your belief brought you to faith in Christ.”

Essentially he's saying you can be a believer, but it doesn't mean you are born again..

What does THAT mean? Zezima? Ohio? Anybody?

Nell

[Nell]

"J. D. Farag: It is our choice. Jesus is not forced on anyone. It is our own free will, it is our choice that we choose to accept our proposal (of marriage) from Jesus Christ as our bridegroom.

This is why Satan, again the why, this is why Satan hates, particularly, the Christian marriage. He hates marriage because of what it represents. It’s (marriage) is a microcosm of what awaits in heaven. We are the family of God, our Heavenly Father. We are brothers and sisters, siblings in Christ. It is a microcosm, a picture of that which is yet to be fulfilled when it comes."
---Before the Fall

For the last few decades we've been seeing Satan's assault on marriage, growing worse and worse. During the Covid epidemic, when children were not allowed in school, parents began to see what their children had been exposed to in schools by the education system which has become perverted. The system in place is attempting to usurp the authority of parents over their own children. We've also been barraged with gender confusion. People are attempting to make themselves into something they are not...also an attack on marriage.

When man and woman were in the garden, in the beginning, God told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth.

If carried to the ultimate conclusion of this Satanic attack on marriage, mankind would cease to exist on the earth. Mankind would be unable to be fruitful, to multiply and replenish the earth. Mankind would no longer have dominion over the living on the earth.

Surely this attack is a rush to the end of days.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

One of the speakers (Jack Hibbs) at one point says this:

59 minutes in:
“So you’ve got the parable of those with oil in their lamp. You’ve got ten of them. All ten started, but not all ten finished. At the time of the midnight cry they all jumped up and trimmed their lamps. But only five had enough oil to continue on.

This is key. Symbolically in Scripture, the oil is reference to the Holy Spirit in your life. So you can be a believer. Jesus said “these are they who believed for awhile”. It doesn’t mean you are born again to believe. Has your belief brought you to faith in Christ.”

Essentially he's saying you can be a believer, but it doesn't mean you are born again..

What does THAT mean? Zezima? Ohio? Anybody?

Nell

I agree that Jesus has further defined real faith (to Nicodemus) with being born again, but in this parable all ten virgins were born of the Spirit, since they all had the oil of the Spirit at one time burning within them.

[OBW]

It would seem that the source Nell is looking at is suggesting that belief and being born again are two different things.

And another related question might be: "Is belief merely a step on the way to salvation, or is it the requirement for salvation?"

And if we assume that scripture says strongly enough that belief (true belief, not mere assent) is the requirement on our part for salvation, then there is the question whether being born again is something additional to salvation or is a component of salvation?

Is is not generally accepted by all except the Pentecostals that the receipt of the Spirit is concurrent with salvation? And unless we are questioning the declaration to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved," then what is being suggested by this audio source?

I will be the first to say that a strong acceptance of Calvinist theology makes the idea of believing and then not believing essentially confirms the idea that there is belief that does not equate to belief in Christ. And while I accept this idea at some level, how do we discuss belief in Christ as a certain thing when there are examples of people who have demonstrated strong faith over many years and then walked away from it all and now claim no belief? The Calvinist has the position that true faith cannot be lost. Yet I keep reading John 3:16 and note that it says ". . . who believes in me . . ." not "believed."

In other words, this is probably an inquiry that is not something anyone will resolve in this life. But we still have the assurance that if we believe, we are saved. Whether and how terms like "born again," "salvation," "sanctification," etc. apply is up for debate. At some level, it is a little like the pre/mid/post-tribulation debate. If we are believing and are therefore ready, we will be ready for whatever the answer is when it comes. In short, it will all "pan out" in the end.

[Nell]

6:55
Kevin: It’s been 2000 years since the final prophecies were recorded, and today the foundation for the convergence of nearly every prophetic sign foretold and the remaining Biblical prophecies have never been more prominent. As a result, a recent rise in debate regarding the signs of the times has led to growing division regarding when the Messiah will return. After all, if the events prophesied within the ancient records are indeed to come to pass, then knowing the timing of the Lord’s return would be of great importance.

Jay McCarl, Middle East Anthropologist
Jay McCarl: The timing is a real hot-button, especially among religious people, Christians and what the like. We love predictability. We want to know when He’s going to be coming back.

Jan Markell, Founder, Olive Tree Ministries
Jan Markell: The conflict, the disagreement, the contention over the timing of the rapture, and particularly in the last ten years, has gone off the charts.

J. D. Farag, Theologian, Senior Pastor
J. D. Farag: Instead of saying “my how they love one another” as they said of the early church, now today they say of the church, “my how they fight with one another”.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

Recently I posted how The Apostasy must come (2 Thess. 2.3) before the coming of our Lord Jesus. What would cause so many Christians to abandon the faith they once held dearly? The recent message by Nigel Tomes, "The Sifting: Difficult Words & Dropout Disciples" based on John 6, asked the same question. In the section, "Why do Disciples Depart & Christians De-convert?" Nigel made numerous explanations which are definitely valid considerations for The Apostasy which may soon confront all of us.

• Unresolved doubts about the Bible
• Unanswered questions about the Bible
• Unanswered prayer
• Unfulfilled promises

I believe that it behooves us to prepare for such a coming trial lest we be caught unprepared and deceived. In the course of my travels post-LC, I have spoken many truths from the Bible which have caused push back and even expulsion from my beloved brothers and sisters. Two common eschatological themes which seem to permeate contemporary Christians assemblies are:

• A great Revival is coming soon. Who has not sung Robin Mark's "Revival"?
• All Christians will be Raptured Pre-Trib.

I have personally and publicly been told, "I don't plan to be here during the Tribulation. The Book of Revelation after ch 3 is not for us. No need to worry, we will all be taken to heaven. etc."

Many Christians have concerns about this, yet are stifled by their leaders. What if these promises are not fulfilled. Are not the children of God being set up for The Apostasy, a tragedy indeed? Remember in the Gospel of John chapter 6 the Lord started out with 5,000 followers and ended with probably about Twelve, one of whom was a devil.

[Nell]

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostacy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

Jan Markell: I’m just so stunned. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. That the greatest news in the Bible is now marginalized jeopardized and is now coming under great criticism and skepticism. Then, you’ll talk to a pastor and he’ll say “well, you know what, I don’t want to be identified with the fringe.” There is a fringe. We don’t know the day or the hour and we don’t. Nobody’s got any special insight. Apparently only God the Father knows.

Amir Tsarfaty: Look. When you live in this world and suddenly someone tells you you’re about to be taken, physically, out of this world, then, knowing the date is like hitting the jackpot. However, it saddens me that, even though Jesus himself said, “no one knows the day and the hour”, why do we think that we need to know? It’s sends a clear message that we’re not supposed to deal with the actual date. We’re supposed to deal with the preparation for that date.

Kevin: In addition, with spreading misconceptions about Biblical prophecy, more church-going Christians, with each passing year, no longer want to hear about these so-called “fringe topics”. Most churches have clearly recognized this trend.

43:10
Jan Markell: If you ask a pastor, he will tell you—flat out—you know what? “The world is coming to an end” is not going to grow my church. The fact that even Jesus is coming back is not going to (grow my church.)

J. D. Farag: That is the number one reason, actually. And it’s really because pastors are, themselves, ignorant concerning Bible prophecy. They are also fearful. They are fearful that if they start teaching Bible prophecy—really they’re teaching the Bible—so how can you not teach the Bible, whole counsel of God, without also teaching prophecy by default? They’re (pastors) are fearful that it’s going to be too controversial.

Amir Tsarfaty: Christians always want to be accepted by the world. They are always on the run to embrace and adopt worldly views in order for people to like them. You sugarcoat everything. You become a motivational speaker rather than a pastor. Because, if you come to a non-believer and you pull out this rapture card, he’s going to run away from you. He’s going to think you’re crazy."

Watching the movie, Before the Wrath, will put this in context for you.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostasy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

I agree, Nell. Recently my wife was told by one Pastor, "we don't teach the book of Revelations because it's just too controversial."

Date-setting during this time is totally futile and distracting. Doing this should totally disqualify the ministry of these ones. The time will come, however, during Daniel's 70th week of years, that we will be able to know the month and the year of His Advent, though not the day or the hour. Both Daniel and Revelation continually mention the period of time of the last half of the week (Dan 9.27), a time, times, half a time (Rev 12.14; Dan 7.25, 12.7), 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.15), and 1260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

Until the great revelation of the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess 2.3) takes place, every time prediction / prophecy is just a lie. After this time, it is God's mercy to inform us that He will limit the wrath, the persecution, and the judgments lest all mankind is destroyed. (Matt 24.22)

To make things clear here, the above only refers to the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth. (Acts 1.11) This in no way applies to the many secret raptures spoken of throughout the Bible.

[OBW]

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

https://www.gotquestions.org/differe...nd-Coming.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

The question here is wrong. In 2 Thessalonians, while answering questions concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Apostle Paul says The Advent will not occur until THE APOSTASY and THE REVELATION of the man of sin. It’s not a matter of whether or not an apostasy has ever occurred. According to the Book of Acts, Paul was accused of Apostasy from Moses. There is no other mention of “apostasy” in the Bible.

So why would Paul prophesy so specifically of THE coming apostasy if it was not a recognizable event for the church of God? This event is coupled with THE revelation of the Man of Lawlessness, aka the Revelation Beast, aka the coming Antichrist. Obviously Paul considered this to be also a recognizable event. Does anyone think these 2 events might somehow be related?

*The Apostasy* does seem to be quite different from *The Revival* which most Christians are looking forward to. If *The Rapture* occurs long before the prophesied events in the book of Revelation, which many are so sure will happen, then WHY would Paul warn us? Why mention “The Apostasy” to the Thessalonians if it would be such a commonplace event throughout church history?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

Ohio is correct. Further, the movie "Before the Wrath", the current thread topic, provides insight if not answers to your questions, which is the reason I raised the discussion. The movie and quotes I posted from the movie transcript are also highly recommended.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Agathe

https://www.gotquestions.org/differe...nd-Coming.html

Thanks Agathe, please register and join the discussion.

The "Got Questions" website does often provide helpful answers to numerous Bible inquiries.

One huge source of confusion about this matter, which I find in nearly all contemporary writings, is that there will be a singular rapture for the entire church of God. This assumption causes endless difficulties among Christians. The Bible never says this, and in fact implies an array of raptures, based on our maturity, our watchfulness, our walk, our sanctity, our martyrdom, etc.

Because most current authors assume a singular rapture, instead of selective rapture, there are endless debates now waging among Christians. Our enemy uses this subject to divide the Church, as I recently experienced again. Reading the Bible again with this new perspective, changes everything for the believer.

Rapture is not a free gift of God, as forgiveness of sins and eternal life are for all those who believe, are born again of the Spirit of God. By simple faith in Jesus, the entire New Covenant is ours. We become children of God, members of His family, escape the lake of fire, etc. all based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. But rapture, on the other hand, is a reward based on what we do after we receive the Lord as our Savior.

[Nell]

I recently heard someone on a youtube video say:

"We need to watch the news today with spiritual eyes."

This helped me to realize that what's happening today is not primarily about politics. Rather, it's about how politics can, and in some cases has, become a tool for deception. It was not my habit in the past to be persuaded on matters of truth based on politics.

This quote goes along with another that I appreciate "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

There are many, what can only be called, doctrines of demons out there today. This is another reason to rely on spiritual eyes, and reserving our opinions until the truth is revealed. By "truth" I'm referring to spiritual truth as well as factual truth.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I recently heard someone on a youtube video say:

"We need to watch the news today with spiritual eyes."

This helped me to realize that what's happening today is not primarily about politics. Rather, it's about how politics can, and in some cases has, become a tool for deception. It was not my habit in the past to be persuaded on matters of truth based on politics.

This quote goes along with another that I appreciate "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

There are many, what can only be called, doctrines of demons out there today. This is another reason to rely on spiritual eyes, and reserving our opinions until the truth is revealed. By "truth" I'm referring to spiritual truth as well as factual truth.

Nell

Good points. About 3 years ago during the lockdowns, the Lord spoke to me from 2 Thess. Ch 2. It was a little startling to read how those who do not love truth will be given an operation of error, a delusion, from God Himself.

[Nell]

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
MATTHEW 24:3

"Jesus chastised religious leaders in the first century for not knowing the time of His arrival. Will we make the same mistake today? Christ stated how His second coming would be preceded by global events signifying the end of our age. We may not know the day or the hour, but we can know the season!"

This movie is by the same folks who produced "Before the Wrath". What stands out to me is how the ancient prophecies are playing out today...before our eyes. You can read these ancient prophecies in the bible, then turn on the world news and follow the dotted lines back to the prophecy with amazing accuracy.

I watched it for free on Tubi. You can watch "Before the Wrath" on Tubi also.

Check it out--
Nell

[Nell]

"Summarizer: According to various sources, the Bible contains prophecies that describe global politics, natural disasters, the future of the nation of Israel, the coming of a Messiah and a Messianic Kingdom, as well as the ultimate destiny of humankind.

According to J. Barton Payne's Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, there are 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament, for a total of 1,817. These prophecies are contained in 8,352 of the Bible's verses, constituting 26.8% of the Bible's volume.

However, some of the history and poetry also contain prophecy. Approximately 50% of all biblical prophecies have been literally fulfilled, while another 50%, many relating to the "latter days" or "end-times," have yet to be fulfilled."

Some/most Christian/people have an aversion to paying attention to biblical prophecy. This means 26.8% of the Bible is being ignored. That includes being ignored by pastors of Christian churches today. Does that also mean that, to some extent, 74.2% of the Bible is being taken out of context...by Christians today? To have the full counsel of God would logically mean paying attention to 100% of the Bible.

Nell

[Nell]

Jack Hibbs:

Things have snowballed in such a way that, frankly, I never thought I would see it this way. Global economic peril. Global border issues. Global lawlessness and global threat of terrorism...the things that the Bible has warned about is coming to pass at the exact time—across the board. We are living in the time of the signs. It’s amazing.

This movie was released in 2017. Add to this in the last 5 years:

Global pandemic.
"Global warming" cult? Hoax? The increase of natural disasters could easily be seen as the result of "Global Warming" while in blatant ignorance of the prophecies of just such events.

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
* We could never validly say "He could return any time" until Israel became a nation in 1948.

Don't mess around and blow this one off!

Free on Tubi.

Nell

[Kyle Yoakum]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Related to Kyle?

Yes, Carol is my wife. She is a diligent student of prophecy who puts her good analytical renewed mind to use in comparing Scripture with Scripture. I am always impressed with what she sees in the prophetic Word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
l

This verse has long been quoted in the attempt to roughly date the Lord's return:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Matt 24

This prophecy has been endlessly discussed since 1948. In 1973 I was told the end must occur by 1988 since a generation is 40 years. But perhaps it means, not the length of time of "this" generation following the inception of the restored nation of Israel. Could it mean that this is the final generation of Israel, that will never pass away or be again exiled? To date, Israel has been exiled into Egypt, then by Assyria, then by Babylon, and lastly by the Romans.

Since this section of scripture concerns the end times, tribulation, and His 2nd Coming, this prophecy may have been wrongly interpreted. Every time Israel has been exiled, they believed it could never happen to them due to their covenant with Jehovah. These covenants are guaranteed by the promises of Jehovah, yet secured as blessing based on Israel's faithfulness, or not.

The previous attacks on Israel will pale in comparison to what is prophesied in the Apocalypse. Tribulation as never before. 200 Million horsemen from the east. The Revelation Beast animated by a beast from the Abyss. Bloodshed of the wine press 200 miles long. Neither with Egypt, nor Assyria, nor Babylon, nor Antioches Epiphanees, nor Roman Titus, nor the Hitler Holocaust did Israel ever face extermination like this.

Yet the Lord promises "this generation will not pass away."

[Nell]

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

Good question.

I think, as time progresses, all believers will be asking, “when is the rapture we were promised.” How many times have I heard, “I don’t plan to be here when things get bad”?

Then the nations will begin to mock the believers. (2 Peter 3.4)

Will the false promises by lying prophets set us up for “The Apostasy?” (2 Thess 2)

I recently studied some the beginnings of the general acceptance of Pre-Trib Rapture popularized initially by J.N.Darby. The original Brethren split began with end times differences between Darby and B. W. Newton. Newton’s teaching on the Parable of the Tares was fairly persuasive. At least to me. None of the Exclusives would agree though.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? There's tribulation, and then there's "The Tribulation." Is there tribulation? Of course. Is there gonna be a "The Tribulation"? A tribulation to end all tribulations? I believe so, which is really scary considering everything that has happened so far. If I believe there is a "The Tribulation," do I believe it has happened yet? No. Do I believe the believers in Christ will be "taken away" before a "The Tribulation" happens? For the most part, at the very least, yes. But the scriptures also speak of the Antichrist "overcoming the saints." If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, are these saints Christians who were left behind for some reason? Are they people who came to the faith after the rapture (if we are building on the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture). Are they "the remnant" of Israel that come to believe in Christ after the rapture? So many questions.

I guess if I wanted to make this a bit simpler, I'd say... "I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. No scriptures or scriptural arguments that I have heard or read lead me to believe that anyone will get 'left behind,' though I am not rabidly opposed to the notion. Either way, God's people are called to live by faith, and that doesn't change regardless of when the rapture occurs. However, since my understanding favors a pre-tribulation rapture, I have come to believe that the rapture has not yet happened because we have not yet come close enough to a 'The Tribulation' despite having many tribulations."

That's my $2, anyhow.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? ...
That's my $2, anyhow.

ACF,

Yes. "tribulation" has been discussed, but I don't know that a definition was needed. "Prophecy - The End Times" seemed to be clear. This is a well established topic with 353+ posts on end times prophecy.

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell

[Nell]

Inputs about the (Pre-Tribulation) Rapture
Preface: I am clear that I don’t know when the rapture will occur because I know that God can do what He plans to do. Based on what is revealed in Scripture and God’s character, I do place a high likelihood on the ekklesia being present on the earth for a significant portion of the Great Tribulation. I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture. I believe it is important to know that God keeps things secret and that it is best for us to have readiness to respond and adapt to whatever happens. Our faith is not founded in our position about rapture. It is a lesser theological item which will become plain as future events unfold. I have found these two passages to be the most relevant as far as establishing a healthy mindset about Christ’s Second Coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:6–9 (LEB)
6 So then, we must not sleep like the rest, but must be on the alert and be self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But because we are of the day, we must be sober, by putting on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation, 9 because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Luke 21:34–36 (LEB)
34 “But take care for yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of daily life, and that day come upon you suddenly 35 like a trap. For it will come upon all who reside on the face of the whole earth. 36 But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

_____________
These inputs from Matt continue in the attached .pdf.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell

Nell, the Bible is pretty specific about the Great Tribulation. Jesus said the G.T. will begin (Mt 24.21) after the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing in the holy place." (Mt 24.15; Daniel 9.27) This will occur in the middle of the last week of years spoken of by Daniel.

The length of time of the G.T. will be 1/2 of 7 years, or 3.5 years (Dan 7.25; Rev 12.14), and is also referred to as 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.5), and 1,260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

The abomination of desolation at the Temple in Israel should correspond with the "revelation of the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction," spoken of by Paul. (2 Thess 2.3)


This time of the G.T. does not mean there will be no "tribulation," natural or supernatural calamities, or persecution prior to it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture.

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

I think it would be wise that all the children of God adopt this daily attitude. Unfortunately many have adopted what I would consider a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the Great Tribulation. Comments like, “I don’t plan to be here during this time,” or “we have nothing to worry about, God will rapture us all to heaven before things get bad,” are far too prevalent. It seems that many American church-goers have never faced real adversity, and may face shocking developments. I hope not.

But this is the scenario that may set us up for “The Apostasy” which Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2. He assured the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” will not come until “the apostasy” comes first. Why would many “leave their stand,” the meaning of apostasy? Paul does not refer to some rebellion by worldly people, but a departure of those who once professed the faith.

Facing unexpected tribulation, while completely expecting to be delivered from it, might cause many to cave under pressure. One Bible commentary used the word “capitulation” to describe the apostasy. In other words, it seems that some, or many, will renege on their faith in exchange for temporary comfort or safety. Such could be envisioned for those who accept the mark of the Beast.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think it would be wise that all the children of God adopt this daily attitude. Unfortunately many have adopted what I would consider a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the Great Tribulation. Comments like, “I don’t plan to be here during this time,” or “we have nothing to worry about, God will rapture us all to heaven before things get bad,” are far too prevalent. It seems that many American church-goers have never faced real adversity, and may face shocking developments. I hope not.

But this is the scenario that may set us up for “The Apostasy” which Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2. He assured the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” will not come until “the apostasy” comes first. Why would many “leave their stand,” the meaning of apostasy? Paul does not refer to some rebellion by worldly people, but a departure of those who once professed the faith.

Facing unexpected tribulation, while completely expecting to be delivered from it, might cause many to cave under pressure. One Bible commentary used the word “capitulation” to describe the apostasy. In other words, it seems that some, or many, will renege on their faith in exchange for temporary comfort or safety. Such could be envisioned for those who accept the mark of the Beast.

Good points, and I agree.

Christians who believe in their own personal interpretations of scripture, and live their lives according to their own understanding, might be in trouble.With so many contrary beliefs about the Word...everyone cannot be right. We are told to "watch and pray".

This statement from Matt: I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture. I believe it is important to know that God keeps things secret and that it is best for us to have readiness to respond and adapt to whatever happens. This is a healthy position. In most matters of the faith, God keeps things secret...

Based on these verses in Revelation 6 I personally believe that we are in the beginning stages of the tribulation now. I pray I'm wrong.

Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. (Reference to finance and economy)
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Famine)
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Good points, and I agree.

Based on these verses in Revelation 6 I personally believe that we are in the beginning stages of the tribulation now. I pray I'm wrong.

Nell

I agree. Talk to Christians in China, Muslim countries, or even Canada, and they will say that 5th Seal tribulation has already begun. When the Bible says "Great" Tribulation, it does not mean the only tribulation, but the worst tribulation mankind has ever seen. The G.T. will not just be an assault on Christians and Jews, but all mankind. There will be slaughters from the Beast on earth, and supernatural calamities from the heavens. The finale will be that horrible battle of Armageddon, with the armies of the East and the West, the kings of the earth gathered to make war against Him who rides the white horse, whose name is the Word of God.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree. Talk to Christians in China, Muslim countries, or even Canada, and they will say that 5th Seal tribulation has already begun. When the Bible says "Great" Tribulation, it does not mean the only tribulation, but the worst tribulation mankind has ever seen. The G.T. will not just be an assault on Christians and Jews, but all mankind. There will be slaughters from the Beast on earth, and supernatural calamities from the heavens. The finale will be that horrible battle of Armageddon, with the armies of the East and the West, the kings of the earth gathered to make war against Him who rides the white horse, whose name is the Word of God.

If you haven't watched the Coming Convergence movie, now would be a good time. It will provide a framework for your own research.

From Jack Hibbs, Founder, Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills
The amazing thing about biblical prophecy, is that biblical prophecy is something you can actually study scientifically. It’s actually called eschatology, where what the Bible has claimed to be prophetic, in fact, 27% of the Bible is prophetic, that the claims that it makes, do they come to pass? Is it true what the Bible has to say?

I don't know who Jack Hibbs is, but he is following Acts 17:11. Don't take anyone's word for it. Pay attention for yourself. We're at the point where we can look at what's been prophecied, then watch the evening news, read about it online, etc. Then here's another favorite quote "Watch the news with spiritual eyes."

The message to all believers is "be ready". There's "eternally" ready, and there's ready for today. How do you do that? How do you "get ready"? How do you know what is "true" vs. "coincidence" or some such? Here's my favorite quote, yet again, "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

Do you need to form an opinion this second? Can you wait a minute...until God tells you? In my experience, truth has a ring. You hear it and you know it...or not. There's that sneaky feeling "something's not right...". I don't know how else to describe it...a feeling that something is either true or not...right or wrong. If you've never experienced that "phenom", check your pulse.

In Ephesians 3 Paul writes:
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

So here's my "translation according to Nell": What Paul is saying is: "God told me." Further, I know what I know "by the Spirit." Not because I studied the bible and gained knowledge alone...even though no one knew the scriptures like Paul. It wasn't until Paul got knocked off his horse and God spoke to him. God communicates to us through the Holy Spirit and the word...not the word alone.

You may or may not get an immediate "revelation" from God. What's important is that you ask your questions of God. Read the word...ask Him if your understanding is truth...correct. This is called fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit.

We fell for Witness Lee's "truth" hook, line and sinker, refusing to question him...because he told us not to ask questions. Wow. We really did that. Let's don't do that anymore.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you haven't watched the Coming Convergence movie, now would be a good time. It will provide a framework for your own research.

I watched the Coming Convergence movie. Prolly watch again.

Movie continually speaks of "One World Government," as if there are scripture verses which define that. The Bible, however, speaks of a (restored) Roman prince and 10 kings which will give all their power to this Beast. It also speaks of tremendous armies from the east during the 6th Trumpet.

If we look at the current geo-political alignments, there seems to be Two world governments. More like NATO vs BRICS, West vs East.

What say you?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I watched the Coming Convergence movie. Prolly watch again.

Movie continually speaks of "One World Government," as if there are scripture verses which define that. The Bible, however, speaks of a (restored) Roman prince and 10 kings which will give all their power to this Beast. It also speaks of tremendous armies from the east during the 6th Trumpet.

If we look at the current geo-political alignments, there seems to be Two world governments. More like NATO vs BRICS, West vs East.

What say you?

Yeah. I'm not sure about a literal "one world government" either. But since you asked...

I read Revelation 18 again, thinking about "one world order", etc., with the phrase "Babylon is fallen". When looking at Babylon the Great, what is described is the entire world economic system. The movie states that individual nations/countries will still exist, but with one overriding authority, or one overriding court system to which all nations will submit. This seems to be feasible, but why or how would the entire world economies be linked or intertwined?

Rev. 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

At around 1:12 the narrator begins a discussion of "One World, One Internet" with the statement "Whoever controls the Internet, controls the world." When Al Gore invented the Internet (joke) he seemed to put in place the very means to link the economies of the world through electronic banking. With the emergence of digital currency, this would create stronger ties among the world economies. My question about digital currency is "Should the Internet become compromised, or unavailable for some reason, would digital currency still exist?" If so, how? How is digital currency accessed without a fully functional Internet?

Another scary verse Revelation 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

One hour? How can Babylon fall in only one hour? How can the economies of the world collapse in only ONE HOUR?

What makes the Internet work? Everyone probably is familiar with an IP address and its format 255.255.255.255 (IPV4). So what's in a number? IP addresses are mapped to a name through a protocol DNS (Domain Name Service). DNS is like a phonebook for the Internet. This DNS "phonebook" is held on "root servers" which are accessible throughout the Internet around the world. Should these DNS root servers become compromised...it would only take one hour...or less...to fulfill Revelation 18:17.

Of course, there are backup root servers, but I think you get the idea. There's a thought "The Internet will NEVER be down". Maybe not, but your access to the Internet can and is periodically compromised. You know this. Does any country have overriding control/authority over the Internet. You betcha. Who? Used to be the US. Not anymore.

Check out location 1:12.

Sorry, Ohio. Long answer.

Nell

[Nell]

I don't know when this article was posted but in lignt of yesterday's attack on Israel (October 7, 2023) it's interesting.

https://www.gotquestions.org/end-times-Israel.html

"There is much turmoil in Israel today. Israel is persecuted, surrounded by enemies—Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc. But this hatred and persecution of Israel is only a hint of what will happen in the end times (Matthew 24:15-21).

The latest round of persecution began when Israel was reconstituted as a nation in 1948. Many Bible prophecy scholars believed the six-day Arab-Israeli war in 1967 was the "beginning of the end."

Could what is taking place in Israel today indicate that the end is near? Yes.
Does it necessarily mean the end is near? No.

Jesus Himself said it best, "Watch out that no one deceives you. . . . You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come" (Matthew 24:4-6)."

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

[Nell]

I heard an interview between an American news source who asked a Jewish reporter on the ground in Israel. The question was something like this: How did the Israel Defense Ministry call up so many reserves so fast to muster to the situation in Israel?

Paraphrased answer:
All people of Israel are in the military. All are in the reserves. We have seen war before. We are trained on what to do when we see the signs of war. So the reserves didn't need to receive an order to report for duty. Reserves see what's happening is bad, and report for duty without hesitation.

This is on the events happening before our eyes on the world stage. What do you think is happening in the heavenlies? What is happening in the spiritual realm? We are commanded to "be ready". I think we have a great example of the readiness of the Israel military. They already know what to do. They have been trained. What about us? Are we fighting a spiritual battle? Will we even recognize a call to spiritual action should the call be issued?

Do we know and appreciate the signs of spiritual warfare? Will we wait for orders or will we just report for duty? Have we trained up according to scripture for the coming days? Our call for duty today should start on our knees.

The verse "watch and pray" should be much more meaningful today than it was last week. If we aren't adequately trained up now, we should get there. There's a message here. Maybe not the same message for each of us, other than the command "be ready".

Nell

[Nell]

Huh?

...426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded.


This is amazing....it really happened. 426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded by Hamas. Whatever the significance, we don't know. I think the only thing we can say for for sure...it was a foreshadow of things to come.

Nell


Additional confirmation: Earthquake Archive

Note: this video is in a loop. It begins with the light bulbs shaking so you know when to stop it. Unchecking "loop" doesn't help me. It's about 60 seconds.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Huh?

...426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded.


This is amazing....it really happened. 426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded by Hamas. Whatever the significance, we don't know. I think the only thing we can say for for sure...it was a foreshadow of things to come.

Nell

Every time Israel is attacked and invaded, they gain more of their promised land.

One of these times they will get their temple too.

[Nell]

This is my theory, but it makes sense to me. When you hear about children/babies openly being slaughtered in Gaza, some people are horrified, but some people are apparently unphased. How can this be?

In the United States alone, since abortion on demand was legalized in 1972, over 60,000,000...60 million lives of children have been taken. Around the world the count of innocent lives taken due to legalized abortion on demand is untold.

It seems to me that in some parts of the world, including the United States, people have become desensitized to the loss of its innocent children. Watching the news on TV today, some still protest—-not the taking of innocent lives, but those who stand against the brutality-to-the-death of children. These things should not be. God will judge.

Biblical evidence
"The laws given to Moses by God expressly forbade the Jews to do what was done in Egypt or in Canaan. “You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Moloch, and so profane the name of your God” (Leviticus 18:21).

Yet kings such as Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6), having been influenced by the Assyrians, are reported to have worshipped Moloch at the hilled site of Topheth, outside the walls of Jerusalem. This site flourished under Manasseh’s son King Amon but was destroyed during the reign of Josiah, the reformer.

“And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Moloch” (2 Kings 23:10)."

Nell

[Nell]

Who is Laodicea? It would be unlikely that anyone who has been "in" then "out" of the Local Church of Witness Lee would not not recognize the description of Laodicea from Revelation 3. Especially Rev. 3:17 highlighted below. Pride and arrogance are one hallmark of Witness Lee's "ministry", which continues in the LC leadership to this day.

What about the remainder of the Lord's brothers who come together in organized “churches” around the globe? Laodicea is everywhere. He knows the works of all his children. A serious warning in Rev. 3:22: if you have an ear to hear, hear what the SPIRIT SAYS to the churches. Listen to the Spirit...not the men who are in leadership. It's important to have an ear to hear the Spirit.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth.
17 Because you said, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and do not know that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that you may see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. ...

I don't recall that Lee, et al, practiced "forbidding to marry" but I do know that they, practiced arranging marriages...maybe they still do. Abstaining from meats is "commanded" globally as part of the "Green Cult".

Even so, there is a declaration of love to Laodicea and call for repentance.

Again, who is Laodicea? Is the church in America near the time of being spewed out of His mouth?

Nell

[Nell]

Another serious warning: 1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Nell]

Does any of this sound familiar…maybe from the news lately?

The Seals

Rev. 6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages,[b] and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

[Nell]

Pope Francis blesses same sex marriage.

"A seismic and prophetic event just happened in our culture end-time - Jonathan Cahn exposes it and what it means for the end-times and your future ..."

What do you think? Is this the most obvious apostacy of the end times to date?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Pope Francis blesses same sex marriage.

"A seismic and prophetic event just happened in our culture end-time - Jonathan Cahn exposes it and what it means for the end-times and your future ..."

What do you think? Is this the most obvious apostacy of the end times to date?

Nell

“Come out of her My People.” Rev 18.4

This should be a wake-up call for my Catholic friends and family.

[Nell]

"Summary
So, over a period of about one week in total, God gave me a very strong word regarding upcoming judgment that seems to match passages where the same language pointed at war. I cannot tell the scope of the war, but it seems to me that it is not too far off. We already have growing conflict in the Middle East. Since God did not give me a specific sense of timing, I won’t speculate.

I am not going to add any further summary. I will leave it to the reader to consider the things shared here before the Lord and I pray the Lord will speak to your heart.

– A. Layman"

Read all of the message from God here:

[Ohio]

Nell, I’ve had some thoughts recently on these verses in Revelation 13 which have long been troublesome to Bible scholars.

13 And the second beast [the False Prophet] performed great signs to cause even fire from heaven to come down to earth in the presence of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast [the Antichrist Beast], it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the [the Antichrist] beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived. 15 The second beast was permitted to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship it to be killed.

How could an image speak? The prophets of old often would mock those images of wood, stone, or metal because “they had eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, etc.” Recent technology has, in a sense, changed all that. Have we not seen robots with “faces,” which could also walk and talk?

Now let’s put together several additional recent technologies. A robot with a face that could talk. Add WiFi, AI, facial recognition, wireless charging, and these NSA super computers which are recording our every online action.

Let me now present a frightening and completely realistic scenario. A famous world leader who brought peace and security to us, will be recently assassinated. A perfect body double with matching face and voice is built. This image, which never needs sleep, could walk into a room with other leaders and could recognize each of them. AI would enable convincing undetectable conversation. The image could piece together one’s entire life and personality based on their online history with total recall. Every time the image “sat down” its battery was charged.

Think about it. Someone who “knows” you and knows everything about you, apparently better than you do. Is this not “God.” Would not the many be deceived into worshiping the image as “God.”

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, I’ve had some thoughts recently on these verses in Revelation 13 which have long been troublesome to Bible scholars.



How could an image speak? The prophets of old often would mock those images of wood, stone, or metal because “they had eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, etc.” Recent technology has, in a sense, changed all that. Have we not seen robots with “faces,” which could also walk and talk?

Now let’s put together several additional recent technologies. A robot with a face that could talk. Add WiFi, AI, facial recognition, wireless charging, and these NSA super computers which are recording our every online action.

Let me now present a frightening and completely realistic scenario. A famous world leader who brought peace and security to us, will be recently assassinated. A perfect body double with matching face and voice is built. This image, which never needs sleep, could walk into a room with other leaders and could recognize each of them. AI would enable convincing undetectable conversation. The image could piece together one’s entire life and personality based on their online history with total recall. Every time the image “sat down” its battery was charged.

Think about it. Someone who “knows” you and knows everything about you, apparently better than you do. Is this not “God.” Would not the many be deceived into worshiping the image as “God.”

Yes. This deception is not only possible but probable. This is a totally realistic scenario. One more thing, Add crypto currency to that and you have the world economy in collapse as crypto currency is digital only. This shows how critical it is that we have a walk with God himself…that we “be not deceived”. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

We desperately need to pay attention to what’s going on today.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes. This deception is not only possible but probable. This is a totally realistic scenario. One more thing, Add crypto currency to that and you have the world economy in collapse as crypto currency is digital only. This shows how critical it is that we have a walk with God himself…that we “be not deceived”. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

We desperately need to pay attention to what’s going on today.

Nell

Agreed. And a warning to us all not to allow our entire life to be “digitized.”

Talking to my wife recently, I wondered if in the tribulation there would no longer be any means to know the truth. Like totalitarian states of old, the news would only be “Pravda” propaganda. No bibles allowed, no churches or liberty to assemble. No freedom to speak or listen to anything which is actually “true.” God will have given all those who do not love the truth over to some horrible delusion, a system of error. (2 Ths 2)

How could we even discern what we see or hear? The whole world groping in the darkness of a huge cavern, unable to identify anything for what it really is. How frightening! Our only basis for truth in that day is what we know and remember from scripture today.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Agreed. And a warning to us all not to allow our entire life to be “digitized.”

Talking to my wife recently, I wondered if in the tribulation there would no longer be any means to know the truth. Like totalitarian states of old, the news would only be “Pravda” propaganda. No bibles allowed, no churches or liberty to assemble. No freedom to speak or listen to anything which is actually “true.” God will have given all those who do not love the truth over to some horrible delusion, a system of error. (2 Ths 2)

How could we even discern what we see or hear? The whole world groping in the darkness of a huge cavern, unable to identify anything for what it really is. How frightening! Our only basis for truth in that day is what we know and remember from scripture today.

If we haven’t already begun, we should begin to communicate with him now about the things coming through the written word and the spoken word. A particularly sobering word is: judgment begins at the house of God. I believe that judgment has already begun.

Nell

[Nell]

https://youtu.be/3_mcNX99VaU?si=X789e696CpEc9AOH

Very interesting stuff. Probably need to pay attention. We may need more than those little solar glasses.

Nell

[bearbear]

I leaned towards a pre-wrath view of end-times like the early church fathers did but I'm open to pre-trib as well. As described in The Didache, an apostolic instruction manual for the early church, many actually believed that Jesus could come at any moment as described in the parable of the wise virgins and encouraged each other to stay pure for his coming. At the same time they also believed they would have to have face the Anti-Christ and endure the tribulation.

Today we think of these two views as mutually exclusive but the early church somehow believed both of them could be true.

Attached is Chapter 16 of The Didache's perspective on "The Last Days".

[bearbear]

Nelson Walters had a interesting video where he contends that the most important question is not the timing of the Lord's return but whether or not we will actually make it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkWcbzfedIM

Jesus implies in verses like Luke 18:8 that not many on the earth will have faith when he returns: "... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Matthew 7:14
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

From NDE's I've research I've found two that claim only 2.5% of people on the earth are actually saved which would fit the narrative of only a few being saved and/or making it in a rapture.

Howard Pittman's testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKnwGMG7PHg&t=1398s

Karl Falken's testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qMpex6WPC0&t=3580s

To back up this claim using scripture, during Ejiah's time, God told him that he had saved a remnant of 7000 Israelites who did not bow down to Baal.

1 Kings 19:18
"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

The population of the kingdom of Israel around this time was around 300000, meaning 7000/300000 or ~2.3% of Israelites were saved during that time.

Now here's a sobering thing to think about: Jesus says few are saved yet many in comparison will think they are saved and refer to him as Lord and find themselves disowned. Jesus says he never knew them so they were likely never born again. They likely misinterpreted grace to mean they could live their lives however they wanted and they did not follow the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and hence were lawless/evil doers.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Okay you may be thinking to yourself 2.5% sounds abnormally low, but based on cell phone data only 2.8% of Americans actually attend church on a weekly basis including people of all faiths:
https://twitter.com/Devin_G_Pope/sta...70211841826817

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I leaned towards a pre-wrath view of end-times like the early church fathers did but I'm open to pre-trib as well. As described in The Didache, an apostolic instruction manual for the early church, many actually believed that Jesus could come at any moment as described in the parable of the wise virgins and encouraged each other to stay pure for his coming. At the same time they also believed they would have to have face the Anti-Christ and endure the tribulation.

Today we think of these two views as mutually exclusive but the early church somehow believed both of them could be true.

Attached is Chapter 16 of The Didache's perspective on "The Last Days".

I agree here. I do believe that it is a faulty assumption to believe that all raptures occur simultaneously. The general Harvest of believers in the parable of the Tares (Matt 13.30), connects with the Harvest of the Earth in Revelation 14.14-16 which is near the end of the Great Tribulation. The reaping of the Firstfruits, (Rev 14.1-5) however, appears to be earlier in time before the Warnings of the 3 Angels and the destruction of Babylon.

[Nell]

It ain’t over ‘til it’s over.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0MOFRTTTQ

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

https://youtu.be/3_mcNX99VaU?si=X789e696CpEc9AOH

Very interesting stuff. Probably need to pay attention. We may need more than those little solar glasses.

Nell

[Nell]

“Iran launches drone attack on Israel”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

“Iran launches drone attack on Israel”

Israel is being told to "turn the other cheek" towards Iran since US moneys paid for those drones.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Israel is being told to "turn the other cheek" towards Iran since US moneys paid for those drones.

Yeah...Israel takes orders from no one.

[OBW]

I happened to read some of the beginnings of this thread and they were quite interesting. According to the first post, Israel was prophecied (by the Arab world) to be blotted from the earth (my words, not theirs) by 2022.

And here we are in 2024.

What are the prophecies of the end times? I seem to recall that there was something about events that would indicate the end within that generation.

Yet the event keeps getting restated. First, it was the (re)creation of Israel as a nation. Then it was this war or that war.

Question. What was the relevance of Revelation for the past 2,000 years if it is really only about the end times? (Ignoring the first 3 chapters.) Are we looking for the wrong thing(s) in it? Is there current value if it turns out that the end still hasn't happened by 2095? If so, how do we read it apart from dispensational rapture theology?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I happened to read some of the beginnings of this thread and they were quite interesting. According to the first post, Israel was prophecied (by the Arab world) to be blotted from the earth (my words, not theirs) by 2022.

And here we are in 2024.

What are the prophecies of the end times? I seem to recall that there was something about events that would indicate the end within that generation.

Yet the event keeps getting restated. First, it was the (re)creation of Israel as a nation. Then it was this war or that war.

Question. What was the relevance of Revelation for the past 2,000 years if it is really only about the end times? (Ignoring the first 3 chapters.) Are we looking for the wrong thing(s) in it? Is there current value if it turns out that the end still hasn't happened by 2095? If so, how do we read it apart from dispensational rapture theology?

Obviously if you heed the many false prophecies of the end time like the Millerite SDA (1844), the Mayans (2012), or the Arabs (2022), it’s kind of like those predicted by Climate Prophets like Al Gore, John Kerry, AOC, or Greta Thunberg.

There is, however, a definite blessing in reading (1.3 out loud?) the Revelation of Jesus Christ. After these events in Revelation begin to occur, many Christians will wish they had heeded this instruction more carefully.

Today we are in a time of great delusion and lawlessness, with a tremendous adversity to truth, all predicted by Paul in 2 Thess 2. The Bible clearly instructs us to watch for the signs of the end times, rather than attempt to ascribe some date. The only times and dates we should consider are after the age of grace, the fullness of the Gentiles, when the Temple is restored in Israel. That event starts the clock.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously if you heed the many false prophecies of the end time like the Millerite SDA (1844), the Mayans (2012), or the Arabs (2022), it’s kind of like those predicted by Climate Prophets like Al Gore, John Kerry, AOC, or Greta Thunberg.

There is, however, a definite blessing in reading (1.3 out loud?) the Revelation of Jesus Christ. After these events in Revelation begin to occur, many Christians will wish they had heeded this instruction more carefully.

Today we are in a time of great delusion and lawlessness, with a tremendous adversity to truth, all predicted by Paul in 2 Thess 2. The Bible clearly instructs us to watch for the signs of the end times, rather than attempt to ascribe some date. The only times and dates we should consider are after the age of grace, the fullness of the Gentiles, when the Temple is restored in Israel. That event starts the clock.

Agreed. We are commanded to "watch". Any conclusions we may reach based on what we "see" are due to our own natural interpretation of events. Events before our eyes today are more global than ever before, due to the fact that news today is global. I think this might make a difference in how we view what's going on in the world today as compared to the past. There seems to be a clearer convergence of end-times events like never before.

Just because, in man's finite wisdom, events seem to get restarted and this war or that war has been going on seemingly "forever", does this relieve believers of the responsibility to watch and pray?

So what are we supposed to do? IMHO, be ready...get ready. Talk to Him. Repent. Stand firm. We don't know everything! We don't NEED to know everything. We NEED to know HIM. Here's another biggie "Lean not to your own understanding."

Nell

[Nell]

"Current Events Are Showing That
WE ARE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION"

Dr. Christian Wilder makes his case in The Temple Revealed

You can download the PDF of his book at this link.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

"Current Events Are Showing That
WE ARE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION"

Dr. Christian Wilder makes his case in The Temple Revealed

You can download the PDF of his book at this link.

Nell

Without me buying the book, where does he locate the Temple?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without me buying the book, where does he locate the Temple?

You can download the PDF at no cost at the above link.

You might start with this helpful video here.

Basically, he discusses, as a professional engineer, his own personal exploration of the temple mount and landmarks of the former temple which remain "hidden in plain sight" to this day. He discusses man's previous beliefs about what the scripture says and today's current events. Do we rely on man's interpretation of what we believe will happen, or look at our own beliefs in line with current events.

He isn't saying he is "right". Neither am I. He's just saying it's worth a look.

I haven't done a good job with this explanation. I'm reviewing his YouTube and just starting out on his book. I think current events are much further along than the time it would take to build the temple...anywhere...so there must be something going on that I/we don't know about regarding the temple.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without me buying the book, where does he locate the Temple?

From the introduction:

“Fascinating and a great read! I encourage any Christian interested in prophecies of Christ’s return to read this book. Dr. Widener has a great love for Israel and a deep interest in biblical prophecy. Believing that Scripture predicts not only the reestablishment of the State of Israel (which occurred in 1948) and the return of Jerusalem to Israeli control (which occurred in 1967) but also that the Jewish Temple must be rebuilt on Temple Mount before Jesus returns, he has set himself to examine how this could possibly happen, given the fact that the Mosque of Omar and the Dome of the Rock dominate the site.

No one believes the Islamists will voluntarily surrender this territory, and any attempt to seize it would clearly result in bloody violence. Dr. Widener examines the historical and archaeological record carefully, as well as the geography of Temple Mount, and he demonstrates that the Third Temple (of Herod’s day) actually stood north of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore the Jewish Temple can be rebuilt on its original site without the risk of war, and he strongly believes it will be.

While the details regarding the future Temple may still be debatable, what is clear and certain is where the former temples used to sit and that Christ will come again to rule and reign from Jerusalem.”

—DR. MICHAEL P. ANDRUS, LEAD PASTOR, RETIRED,
FIRST EVANGELICAL FREE CHURCH, WICHITA, KS

[Nell]

In light of current events this is VERY INTERESTING.

Preface

THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK is to attempt to settle the question of the location of the Jewish temple through a multi-disciplinary approach that includes religious and prophetic reasoning. In the past, this question has been mainly addressed with either: (1) simply less information that what is currently available today, or (2) by using a disciplined approach with purely historical or archaeological evidences. In either case, definitively substantiating the precise location of the temple before it was destroyed in AD 70 has proven intractable.

I have been studying this question for more than a decade because of its prophetic implications and because I think it is a key to achieving lasting peace in Israel. Many would challenge the latter statement and assert that it is exactly the temple that presents the greatest risk to peace. But that idea is deeply flawed because it assumes that it is possible that in some future state the Jewish people will finally forget about the temple. But we have almost 2000 years of observational data that argue quite convincingly to me that this is not true. It is like a piece of shrapnel embedded near the Jewish heart or the proverbial thorn in the lion’s paw. In both cases, the offense must be removed, i.e., by rebuilding the temple, in order for true peace to be achieved.

The other reason that this issue matters is that support from the U.S., fueled by the Christian community, is the key to Israel being able to establish sufficient sovereignty over the Temple Mount in order to allow them to begin rebuilding the temple. Some might chafe at this comment as well, but the truth is that it was the support of the U.S. that tipped the balance to approve the establishment of statehood by Israel in the first place. The U.S. has also played a significant role in the defense and continued existence of Israel as a nation. It was the acknowledgment of the U.S. that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel that finally made it a reality for the world to just accept. The U.S. also first approved the annexation of the Golan Heights, which afterwards was approved by the Israeli Knesset and annexed. Therefore, it is not mere
fanciful imagination to expect that finally allowing full and equal access to the Temple Mount and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple will also first require American support.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

No one believes the Islamists will voluntarily surrender this territory, and any attempt to seize it would clearly result in bloody violence. Dr. Widener examines the historical and archaeological record carefully, as well as the geography of Temple Mount, and he demonstrates that the Third Temple (of Herod’s day) actually stood north of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore the Jewish Temple can be rebuilt on its original site without the risk of war, and he strongly believes it will be.

While the details regarding the future Temple may still be debatable, what is clear and certain is where the former temples used to sit and that Christ will come again to rule and reign from Jerusalem.”

I once read an article that discussed 3 Temple sites that were being actively debated, each with “overwhelming” archeological evidence.

With the current state of anti-semitism, and the lack of action by our federal agencies, it’s becoming easier to see why a rising “Prince” from a restored Roman Empire will be revered by Israel as their long-awaited Messiah, who will provide them with security and allow them to build their Temple.

I doubt we will ever know the site of this Temple until construction begins.

[Nell]

What happened? It's widely believed that God intervened on July 13 to spare the life of a man. That can not rationally be disputed. Does this mean God is a Republican? Is that the message?

What's the message? God is God. IMHO the message is that a merciful God is in control. "God is in control."

Men, mankind, was created by God and God alone. God alone can secure and protect those he created. In fact, he is jealous over us.

Exodus 34:13-17 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

For a very long time Americans, including the church in America, has gone "a whoring" after a long list of other "gods". "gods" of all kinds.

This should get our attention. By his current actions God is extending his mercy to us for a little more time. That he is in control is a great mercy to us.

I might be wrong about some of this. But, in the spirit of the message, I might not be wrong.

What do you do when the Creator offers a hand of mercy as we approach the end of days? Are we really in the end of days?

Nell

[Nell]

1. Will we be here during the Great Tribulation?
2. Will any fear about the possibility of being present for the Great Tribulation affect our beliefs, i.e., our approach to the study of the rapture?
3. Is the reason for our beliefs to think we have a correct interpretation?
4. Rather, are our beliefs held in order to be equipped against being deceived (i.e. misled)?
5. Are our beliefs held in order to be ready for the Lord’s return (watching, being alert, praying and expectantly awaiting Jesus’ return)?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

1. Will we be here during the Great Tribulation?
2. Will any fear about the possibility of being present for the Great Tribulation affect our beliefs, i.e., our approach to the study of the rapture?
3. Is the reason for our beliefs to think we have a correct interpretation?
4. Rather, are our beliefs held in order to be equipped against being deceived (i.e. misled)?
5. Are our beliefs held in order to be ready for the Lord’s return (watching, being alert, praying and expectantly awaiting Jesus’ return)?

Nell

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

1. There will be a Great Revival
2. All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

Originally Posted by Nell

Outline of Revelation
Rev. 1:1-20 – John commissioned by Jesus
Rev. 2:1-3:22— Message to the 7 churches
Ephesus
Smyrna
Pergamos
Thyatira
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Rev. 4:1-5; 5:1-4— Heavenly Court and 7-Sealed Scroll
Throne, 24 elders, 4 “good beasts”
Book with 7 seals
Lamb worthy to open the book

Rev. 6:1-17 – 7 Seals, Judgment
1st Seal—White horse, one of the four beasts, conquering and to conquer
2nd Seal—Red horse, second beast, take peace from the earth, kill
3rd Seal—Black horse, third beast, “a balance”, food shortage, finance?
4th Seal—Pale horse, fourth beast, death and hell
5th Seal—souls of them that were slain cry out
6th Seal—Earthquake; sun blackened, moon as blood; the great day of wrath

Rev. 7:1-17 Sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 8:1-9:21 7th Seal; ½ hour silence in heaven. 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Prayers of the saints.
1st angel; hail and fire with blood; third part of trees, all green grass burnt up.
2nd angel; 3rd part of the sea became blood; 3rd part of the creatures in the sea died; 3rd part of the ships were destroyed.
3rd angel; great star from heaven fell, burning as a lamp on the 3rd part of the rivers, and the fountains of waters; star is called Wormwood: many died of the bitter waters
4th angel; 3rd part of the sun, moon stars darkened. 3 woes: Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev. 10:1-11—11:13 Seal up the things spoken by the seven thunders
Rev. 11:14-19 7th Trumpet
Rev. 12:1—14:20 12 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
13 Beast out of the sea.
14 The Lamb with 144,000

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev. 15:1—16:211 7 Bowls
Rev. 17:1-19—19:10 Judgment of Babylon the Great
Rev 19, 21. 2nd Coming

Rev 20: 7 - 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev. 21:9—22:5 The beast and false prophed judged.
Rev. 22:6—22:21 Final Exortation

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ex-LC-Rosemead

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

Thank you for the chart! BTW, where do you think we are in the Revelation timeline?

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

1. There will be a Great Revival
2. All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

https://www.christianwebsite.com/wha...the-last-days/

I found this collection of verses by one who offered an opinion on an alleged coming “Great Revival”. This opinion relies heavily on these verses:

“Acts 2:17-21 – Joel’s Prophecy Fulfilled at Pentecost
When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter declared “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people'” (Acts 2:17-18).
While Pentecost was an initial and partial fulfillment, the fullness of Joel’s prophecy will occur before Jesus’ return. This will be a time of revival marked by dreams, visions, and prophecy through the widespread outpouring of the Holy Spirit.”

I’m not sure we can take it to the bank.

Nell

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thank you for the chart! BTW, where do you think we are in the Revelation timeline?

Nell

I believe the first four seal are happening now because we can see them happening now. The 5th seal is something we can not perceive but it could be happening now. The 6th seal has not happened yet but when it does it will be perceived by everyone. And that is the Great Earthquake. And it is one like no other. It describes the stars falling unto the Earth. We know that stars don't move much. But if you consider your position on the Earth and its shaking and moving and you look up into the sky, the stars will look like they are falling or moving. That is a big earthquake! And from that shaking and moving there is going to be a lot of dust made that will blacken the sun and change the color of the moon.


So, to sum it up, I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ex-LC-Rosemead

I believe the first four seal are happening now because we can see them happening now. The 5th seal is something we can not perceive but it could be happening now. The 6th seal has not happened yet but when it does it will be perceived by everyone. And that is the Great Earthquake. And it is one like no other. It describes the stars falling unto the Earth. We know that stars don't move much. But if you consider your position on the Earth and its shaking and moving and you look up into the sky, the stars will look like they are falling or moving. That is a big earthquake! And from that shaking and moving there is going to be a lot of dust made that will blacken the sun and change the color of the moon.
So, to sum it up, I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal today.

Many, myself included, think that John probably saw meteors or asteroids falling to the earth, distinct from the sun and moon which he also mentioned in Rev 6.12-17. These "stars" that John saw should be literal, however, and different from the "stars" seen in 12.1 or the "star" fallen to the earth in 9.1.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

1. There will be a Great Revival
2. All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past...

Matt, I Cor 15.52 and I Th 4.15 are often joyously quoted, in fact, when I was saved 50 years ago, they were some of the very first verses I learned. That was the era of Hal Lindsey’s book “Late Great Planet Earth.”

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment. I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... . And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment.

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... . And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

The judgments on Egypt come to mind. Our loving Father definitely wants His children to mature, and hardships can help. Revelation speaks of both persecution by man, and judgment by God. Peter says "judgment begins in the house of God." But obviously God has wrath for those who reject His Son, take the mark of the beast, and worship the AntiChrist, or should we say "False Christ" since in so many ways this Man of Sin will establish himself as a counterfeit to the real Christ, Israel's real Messiah. He will convince much of the world that Jesus was a total failure, and he alone shall be worshiped as God.

Your comment "most would argue" kind of summarizes Revelation studies. And recently I have had quite a few.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

I am going to parse on this comment a bit later. I have a detailed expansion and explanation related to the 7th trumpet that may affect your current perception of it. (Maybe not... )

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

1 Timothy 4:1–3 (NASB95)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1 Tim 4:1 says the "Spirit explicitly says". We can only take this one of two ways. The Holy Spirit gave direct revelation to Paul with no OT Scriptural foundation OR The Holy Spirit gave Paul a spiritual understanding of OT Scripture and events which ARE the "Spirit explicitly say(ing)" something about the apostasy described in 1 Ti 4:1-3.

Here it is in the Old Testament. I have this by revelation from the Lord. I asked the Lord about this verse for more than 15 years and then one day He showed it to me. Feel free to give me a hard time because I am claiming it was revealed to me by the Lord.

Read Numbers 25 and I will comment on verses 1 and 2 after some contextual setup.

Contextual Setup: The congregation in the wilderness is a representation of the ekklessia. 1 Cor 10, says that these ones wilderness are "types" of us. The church in this age has a start and end as a typological picture in the Old Testament. The church age STARTS by exiting from Egypt and (I believe) ENDS near the time of the destruction of Jericho. Numbers 33 gives us a full review of the journey through the wilderness. There are 40-41 stops along the way. In Numbers 33:49, we see the LAST STOP (mapping 1 Tim 4:1 - "in later times"). The LAST STOP is Abel-****tim (aka ****tim or Baal-Peor). So, in the progression of the "ekklessia in the wilderness" we have a progression from beginning to end and we have the "latter times" of this journey.

This contextual setup helps us also see how Paul could set the timing of the Day of the Lord after the man of sin is revealed and apostasy. There is more proof than just the contextual setup.

Now, let's look at Numbers 25:1-2 which tells us what happens at the LAST STOP in the journey to the promised land.

1 While Israel remained at ****tim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.

There is a direct mapping between these two verses and 1 Tim 4:1

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

paying attention to deceitful or seducing spirits --> play the harlot with the daughters of Moab
paying attention to doctrines of demons --> invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods

The mapping to doctrines of demons may seem obscure. The children of Israel were supposed to eat the manna from heaven. This is a picture of spiritual food we partake of now. So, "meat sacrificed to idols" is a picture of spiritual food from the wrong source which are "doctrines of demons". For me, this means the apostasy is already in full swing and increasing right now.

There is more to say, but I will stop there. This leaves the "man of sin" as unaddressed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

I see one primary basis for the rapture as a single event. However, I also see that there will be a lot of martyrdom during the Great Tribulation. Martyrdom is not "the rapture", but it can be seen as the way that some leave the Great Tribulation earlier. I know this is an ugly view, but it is what I have considered to be able to account for Rev 7:9-17 as happening before a single event rapture.

My primary basis for the rapture as a single event is 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 and John 6:39-54. 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 both indicate the dead rise FIRST and then those who are alive and remain are raptured. This pushes the idea of rapture until after this first resurrection of the dead and these verses say ALL who are alive and remain will be raptured.

John 6:39-54 anchors this first resurrection of the dead "on the last day".

I understand what you are saying about first fruits and I agree that the ones who are taken up to the throne are firstfruits. (Do you link the Rev 12 - male child to the Rev 7 & 14 - 144k)

So, I do leave open the idea of two phases of rapture, but in general I do not think there is a "progressive" rapture. It seems there may be just two chunks with the rapture described in 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52 as being after the first resurrection which happens near the end of the Great Tribulation.

Comments?

Note: all my thinking on all the End Times stuff is based on tearing down everything I learned from others in the past and then just reading for 20+ years and various things emerged throughout the process as I asked questions of the Lord and He answered a little here, a little there.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1

Matt, since I have heard and read so many untrustworthy eschatological interpretations of OT prophecy, I do not look first to the OT. It can definitely provide details, context, and foundation for Revelation prophecy, but I look to the NT first and primarily.

For example, Daniel 9 speaks of the abomination in the Temple by the Prince. Perhaps this was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes in the Maccabees, or as some Preterists claim, by Nero in the 1st Century. But since a physical Temple is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, Paul in 2 Thess 2, and John in Revelation 11, I have complete confidence in its literal fulfillment.

I Tim 4 does describe details of the end times, including especially the children of God. Some say this is happening now, some say this has been happening since Acts 5. Like you, I do believe the final days will bring out the worst in many.

What jumped out to me 4 years ago during Covid was that "The Apostasy" was a clearly identifiable event which will occur near in time to when the Man of Sin is clearly "revealed" to all. Prior to this, the actual character of the First Therion Beast will be hidden from most people. It seems that most of Israel will mistake him for their Messiah. (Matt 24.5)

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

This verse 2 Thess 2.3 should be read in parallel with Revelation 13.15, otherwise it doesn't make sense. And Matt, since you prefer OT foundation, Daniel 3.14-18 comes to mind.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

The passage above ends with a call for the endurance of the saints and for them to remain faithful to Jesus just like Daniel's friends when they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image at the threat of death.

It will be a time of testing to reveal who are the true and false Christians.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever.

Not exactly.

The warning in Rev 14.9-10 says this: And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image AND receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”

I agree that “The Apostasy” will be identified when many Christians take the mark of the Beast due to the extreme persecution from the beast. The 2nd Beast probably will publicize this event with great fanfare. But the verse actually includes the word “AND.” This is significant. Some will take the mark but NOT worship the beast and its image. This may seem like a technicality, but important at the Judgment for some. For others, this may identify them as Tares.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some will take the mark but NOT worship the beast and its image. This may seem like a technicality, but important at the Judgment for some. For others, this may identify them as Tares.

It could also be the other way around.

In Revelation 14:9-11 worship of the beast and its image is followed by receiving the mark. This order is also repeated in Revelation 13:15-16:

15. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads

The penalty of not worshipping the image is to be martyred and those who remain will likely go on to take the mark. So in this view, all those who take the mark would have also worshipped the image first to save their own life.