Prophecy - The End Times

[Matt Anderson]

What is the Great Tribulation?

I don't see this topic as terribly complex like some other topics, but I have found it is important to define this clearly as part of the overall discussion on the topic of End Times prophecy.

• Jesus calls it "Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)
• The Great Tribulation is more than the "tribulation" that all christians experience in the world (John 16:33)
• The Great Tribulation is "short" (Matthew 24:21-22)
• The Great Tribulation is either 3.5 or 7 years long. There are two primary portions of the Bible that establish these time periods which I map to the label "Great Tribulation"
• Daniel 9:24-27 establishes a 7 year period (the 70th week of years) which is split into two 3.5 year halves.
• Revelation establishes a 3.5 year period - 1260 days (Rev 11:3, 12:6), 42 months (Rev 11:2, 13:5), time, times and half a time (Rev 12:14). It may not be obvious at first, but if you study the text and events described in Revelation closely, I believe it is valid to conclude that each of these references (1260d, 42m, etc) to 3.5 years is actually referring to the exact same period of 3.5 years with different references/labels.
• My belief is that there is a continuous 7 year period (referred to in Daniel) where the last 3.5 years is the subject of a large portion of the Book of Revelation.

Note: every time I say year, I mean the 1260 day lunar year, not the 365.25 day long solar year.

Personally, I believe the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long but I hold my belief "loosely". I accept that my choice of what to believe could be wrong and that a 7 year view of Great Tribulation is viable. I choose the 3.5 year option with an 80% likelihood, but recognize that it could be 7 years. It is not important to me to say that I have it right. It is important to me to be aware that both options are possible and I will depend on the Lord to further clarify my understanding at the right time IF he chooses to do so.

Simply put, I think I have a good interpretation with a 3.5 year long view of "the Great Tribulation", but I DON'T CARE IF I AM RIGHT. I care that I have a good attitude about listening and hearing if and when God reveals and clarifies.

Who is in the Great Tribulation?

The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

• 144,000 Sealed Ones
• Saints
• Earth Dwellers

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

I agree that a large portion of Revelation applies to "Israel", but I do not agree that this necessarily dictates that that rapture of the whole church has occurred. I already know most of the views and all the supporting scripture used to back up the pre-tribulational rapture of the church. I'm not going to try to argue that the pre-tribulational rapture is wrong. Instead, I am going to list the options that various people believe in (including the pre-trib view) and review them. There are other views that have strong validity from scripture. I'm not ready to dive into this subject yet, but I am being forthright that I can show at least one different view that I believe competes against a pre-trib view very competitively.

Based on the text of Revelation, when does the Great Tribulation (3.5 years) start?

I am presenting this part without the foundation that brought me to this conclusion. I may have to "fill in the blank" (i.e. foundational elements of this assertion).

I believe the 3.5 year Great Tribulation starts with the opening of the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17). I believe this correlates with Joel 2:30-31 where it says that the events happening in the creation (sun, moon, etc) precede the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". Take close note of the condition of the moon. In Rev 6:12 and Joel 2:31 describe a blood moon. This is distinct from Matthew 24:29 and Joel 2:10 where the moon is darkened. Matthew 24:29 says the moon is darkened AFTER the time of Great Tribulation. So, I think the Great Tribulation is book ended with great disturbances in the creation in the heavens and on the earth, but the moon is the key to setting the opening book end and the closing book end. The moon is turned to blood as the opening book end and the moon is darkened as the closing book end.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is the Great Tribulation?

Note: every time I say year, I mean the 1260 day lunar year, not the 365.25 day long solar year.

I need to remember that for myself!!

Personally, I believe the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years long but I hold my belief "loosely"……..
……Simply put, I think I have a good interpretation with a 3.5 year long view of "the Great Tribulation", but I DON'T CARE IF I AM RIGHT. I care that I have a good attitude about listening and hearing if and when God reveals and clarifies.

Great attitude. I myself am pretty convinced “The great tribulation” is 3 1/2 yrs long. I am pretty sure it will begin soon after the “first” rapture. I believe there will be at least 3 raptures. After the first “biggie”.

Who is in the Great Tribulation?

The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

[*] 144,000 Sealed Ones

There is an interesting study I found on the 144,000 but not ready to share it yet.

[*] Earth Dwellers

Another interesting study I am doing on them but don’t have enough info yet to share.

If you or anyone has thoughts on the earth dwellers please share. Thank you.

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

I agree with your thoughts. I hold a dispensationalist view but don’t agree with everything certain dispensationalists teach.

I agree that a large portion of Revelation applies to "Israel", but I do not agree that this necessarily dictates that that rapture of the whole church has occurred.

I agree. As I stated, I believe there are at least 3 more raptures after the big one. I also don’t believe the wedding mentioned in Revelation 21 occurs right after the first rapture.

Everywhere I turn, people are believing the Lord is coming for His Bride, referring to the rapture. I don’t think that is what is going to happen right after the rapture.

Gotta run now!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

What is the Great Tribulation?
...
Who is in the Great Tribulation?
The portion of Revelation that dives into the period we know as the Great Tribulation refers to some groupings with key labels.

• 144,000 Sealed Ones
• Saints
• Earth Dwellers

I believe most dispensationalists further refine their definition of "saints" to be "tribulation saints" which are completely distinct from the church. With many of them holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint, they see the church as removed from the earth and the remainder of Revelation being applied to "Israel".

To define our terminology, and briefly discuss:

"Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture.

***First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning.

***The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal.

There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today. ...

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church. ... "

I'll leave it to Matt, and others, to adjust this definition of the term "dispensationalism" if necessary.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

I appreciate the definition of Dispensationalism here, as I have been wondering about it lately. I was brought up with Dispensationalist thinking, so I really didn't know any differences. But lately, a well-versed brother on the radio, Steve Gregg, has been speaking about it quite a bit. When people call into his radio program and ask about things like the rapture or tribulation or the kingdom, he always goes into this rather lengthy discussion about how Dispensationalism has shaped most Christians view of things and he believes it to be an error. He says he used to be a Dispensationalist for a long time, but then saw differently in the word. His speakings on this topic are generally foreign to me, but it has caused me to be aware and consider my own Dispensationalist views some.

However, nothing I've heard or read has swayed me from still thinking mostly in Dispensationalist terms, that is, there will be an "hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth, then there will be rapture(s), and Jesus will return to set up His thousand year kingdom on earth, and His elect will rule and reign over the earth with Him.

[Ohio]

Dispensationalism definitely has value in the study of the Bible, but like anything, can be taken to extremes. Those who teach pre-trib rapture of the entire church are simply forced to shoehorn too many scriptures which indicate otherwise.

I first heard this from Hal Lindsey, who based this teaching solely on the absence of the word “church” after Revelations 3. While this speculative fulfillment of prophecy was quite appealing to us as immature Christians, the Bible never said as much.

Much of prophetic scripture concerning the believers during the end times seems to address us individually, rather than as a collective. Consider, “one is taken, one is left.” Israel, however, noting Daniel’s prophecies, often views the collective.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

However, nothing I've heard or read has swayed me from still thinking mostly in Dispensationalist terms, that is, there will be an "hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth, then there will be rapture(s), and Jesus will return to set up His thousand year kingdom on earth, and His elect will rule and reign over the earth with Him.

I still see validity in some amount of dispensational thinking, but I believe there is some error in it as well. I am significantly literal in my views and interpretation, but I can poke holes in a strict literal approach. I do think God has dealt with man under some "phases" of His administration, but I do not fully agree with how dispensationalists have handled what I call the "Audiences of God".

Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

I have thought quite a bit about how this type of mapping can work. For example, let's use one particular audience to think about the mapping process... Greece.

Genesis 10:2-5

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread out through their lands, each according to his own language by their own families, in their nations.

Greece comes from the 4th son of Japheth, Javan. Greece is part of the coastland peoples as denoted in Genesis 10:5 ("from these the coastland peoples spread out"). Historians and Bible scholars agree that the name "Javan" mutates to "Ion" (i.e. the Ionians) who are the peoples of Greece. Greece is a nation that has been known down through the ages up until the present time. They are also a culture (Hellenism) that has influenced many other cultures throughout the ages. The Greek culture and way of thinking is important in New Testament time as seen through Paul's writings (ex: 1 Cor 1:22 - Jews ask for sign miracles and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified).

Here are a few examples of references to Javan, Greece/Greeks and the coastlands. This is not a full list of references:

• Javan - see Isaiah 66:19 and Zechariah 9:13 (both of these were prophetic when spoken)
• Greece/Greeks - see Daniel 8:21, Joel 3:6, Romans 1:16
• part of "the coastlands" (Genesis 10:5) - see Isaiah 11:11, Isaiah 49:1, Ezekiel 26:18

If you review these examples, you will see that God is specifically targeting prophetic speaking to the Grecian/Greek "people grouping" established in the "table of nations" of Genesis 10. Some of God's targeted prophetic speaking HASN'T HAPPENED YET. So, how do we map God's speaking forward in time???

Methods of Mapping
1. Is it Future bloodline lineal descendants which may not be identifiable as a grouping in modern times?
2. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture with the same or changed name?
3. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture under the same spiritual dominion with the same OR different name?
4. Is it some combination of #1-#3

I know I cannot give a fully definitive answer and say it is only #1, #2 or #3 or even a combination (#4). I have seen passages that could work with any of these mappings. I have seen other passages where only one of these "methods of mapping" seems to make any sense. I do not presume to be able to resolve this challenge, but instead I hold the relevant scripture in my mind "loosely" as God's word that will be fulfilled exactly as it was said to "Audience of God" to whom He directed it.

I don't let my ideas of "dispensationalism" override the direct prophetic speaking of God even though I cannot fully comprehend the meaning of some of these prophetic speakings. The main point of sharing this in response to your comment about dispensationalism is to introduce the idea of the "Audiences of God" and that as I have read what The Author of these prophecies has said and the audiences that The Author uses I find that I rarely even consider the word "dispensation" or "dispensationalism". After a while, I realized that some of what I was learning sometimes cut through dispensational thinking. This doesn't destroy the idea dispensationalism. I have just learned to put "dispensational thinking" in it's place. It is a conceptualization of man (not God) about the truth of God's word and its application across the ages which may not hold up.

The ("I don't think there is a resurrection") Saduccees found out about how their reasoning and conceptualization of the topic of resurrection held up when they spoke to The Author.

Matthew 22:29

But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God!

I know it may not seem relevant to focus on the "Audiences of God" in prophecy, but when we change our example from Javan/Ionian/Greece (or Greek) to the people groupings in Israel it becomes very interesting. When I started reading the Bible with the "Audiences of God" and further understanding these audiences, the entire history of Israel changed in my understanding. As my understanding changed, so did my interpretation of some End Times prophecies.

Matt

p.s. next comes the rapture...

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

...Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

To make sure I understand what you're saying, before you can properly understand what someone says in any speaking, you need to know who the speaker was addressing. Especially when interpreting the scripture itself in relation to prophecy. For example, a father speaking a message to his daughters vs. a father speaking the identical message to his daughters' boyfriends.

Additionally, that father might use words differently while maintaining the same intended message.

We have all experienced, often with great frustration, the way Witness Lee and the Local Church leadership have used words differently, without paying attention to the integrity of the message of the message/s in the scriptures..

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

Would an example of this "disconnect" be the verses that say things "surely I come quickly" when thousands of years have passed and He has not returned. Or, with the phrase "I come" his coming may have more than one manifestation or "definition". That is, this type of similar admonitions were spoken in different contexts, or to different groups.

Another example would be whether the OT prophets were speaking to Gentiles or to Jews. "Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Nell

"Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Some Audiences related to Israel: Jacob, Israel, Judah (Jehudi/Jew), Ephraim, House of God/Yahweh, House of Jacob, House of Israel, children of Israel, House of Judah, House of Levi, House of Joseph

There is a lot of intricacy here in the names which is very relevant to interpreting prophecies of the Old Testament. It is helpful (but not always critical) to understand the name reference (i.e. House of Judah, House of Israel) at the time it was spoken and who the name reference is pointing to for future fulfillment.

This subject moves into the topic of "Who is Israel?". Most christians lump everything into one name, "Israel" and then think in terms of "Israel" versus the "Church".

Using your example of "Jew", it comes from Jehudi which comes from Judah or the Southern Kingdom (aka House of Judah). Judah is a single tribe which rises to preeminence in Israel by the time of David. Judah WAS NOT preeminent before the time of David. Ephraim was the preeminent tribe. Ephraim bore the title of House of Israel at multiple stages in the history of Israel. House of Israel is an overarching title that still has relevance today beyond what most people think of when they say "Israel". I have multiple scriptural proofs of the preeminence of Ephraim until the time of David which can be reviewed as needed. Ephraim's standing as the preeminent tribe in Israel starts in Genesis 49 and goes all the way into the time of Samuel. Here is one passage that helps to understand both the preeminence of Ephraim and the transition to Judah in the time of David. It is from Psalm 78 that reviews some of the history of Israel up to the point the Psalm was written. Even after this point, Ephraim is distinctly spoken to prophetically in ways that could only apply to the future (at or after Jesus Christ's first coming). If you sum it all up and think of all the various references as "Israel", then you miss a lot.

Psalm 78:56–60 (LEB)
56 But they tested and rebelled against God Most High and did not keep his statutes. 57 And they turned and were treacherous like their ancestors. They twisted like a crooked bow. 58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and made him jealous with their images. 59 God heard and he was very angry and rejected Israel utterly. 60 So he abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh, the tent he had placed among humankind. ... 67 And he rejected the tent of Joseph, and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 but chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion that he loved.

There is quite a bit more intricacy here if you trace the title "House of Israel" through the course of Old Testament history. The ownership of this title moves around as their history progresses.

For now, I will leave this with a few questions (with answers) to consider. When we say, "Jew" does that mean ALL of Israel? (No, it doesn't.) When we say "Israelite" does this cover ALL Jews? (Yes, it does.) Are their other "Israelites" that are NOT "Jews"? (Yes, there are.)

This isn't just an exercise in name research. It has direct bearing on End Times prophecy. I'm going to stick with going over the rapture next, but your comment provoked a preview related to "Who Is Israel?".

Matt