Prophecy - The End Times

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

[Timotheist]

So are you suggesting a timeline that goes something like this?

Trumpets (tribulation), Resurrection, Bowls, Rapture

whereas I currently think of the timeline in this way:

Trumpets, Resurrection, Rapture, Bowls

I have not considered the former, but it does provide an alternative that might hold up.

People in my camp are called "Pre-Wrathers" as opposed to "Pre-Tribbers".

Not discounting your third option at all (if that is indeed what you meant to say)... and Rev 16:15 certainly brings up a decent question.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

So are you suggesting a timeline that goes something like this?

Trumpets (tribulation), Resurrection, Bowls, Rapture

whereas I currently think of the timeline in this way:

Trumpets, Resurrection, Rapture, Bowls

I have not considered the former, but it does provide an alternative that might hold up.

People in my camp are called "Pre-Wrathers" as opposed to "Pre-Tribbers".

Not discounting your third option at all (if that is indeed what you meant to say)... and Rev 16:15 certainly brings up a decent question.

Uh...I'm basically just asking a question. I was raised a pre-tribber. Now I'm not so sure...just exploring all possibilites. I like the picture of God's protection of his people ... in all ages.

I'm also considering the question of "does it matter" what I believe when I'm admonished on every turn to "be ready", i.e. being ready is more important than being "right".

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Uh...I'm basically just asking a question. I was raised a pre-tribber. Now I'm not so sure...just exploring all possibilites. I like the picture of God's protection of his people ... in all ages.

I'm also considering the question of "does it matter" what I believe when I'm admonished on every turn to "be ready", i.e. being ready is more important than being "right".

Nell

Amen to that... my only pushback would be that we should not rely on the "happy path" too much, if that is being used as an excuse (unconsciously of course) to remain lukewarm.

A healthy fear of the Lord is also a good thing.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Amen to that... my only pushback would be that we should not rely on the "happy path" too much, if that is being used as an excuse (unconsciously of course) to remain lukewarm.

A healthy fear of the Lord is also a good thing.

My pushback to your pushback: I trust you don't really think that's what I meant. There are plenty of verses to "be ready", watch and pray, look up, be not deceived, and other such warnings. Does anyone really take these warnings seriously enough? This is my context for "be ready".

Some Christian scholars speak and write on many topics with "authority" they do not possess. Witness Lee, for example. Does it really matter about the interpretations of men if you are personally not on the lookout, if you're not reading the words for yourself, if you're not asking the Lord for guidance and understanding but simply believe what someone else says? (Lord? What does THAT mean?)

This is what I hope to accomplish with this topic. That readers would "wake up", look around at the world today, and begin to go to the only one who knows what's really going on. A good question to start with would be "Uh...Lord? Is something going on that I should know about?"

Another warning: Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Wow. This sounds serious.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

My pushback to your pushback: I trust you don't really think that's what I meant.

oops. my bad. I reread your post and it registered differently this time.

pull back on my push back.

Oh, and whoever decided to "feature" one of my posts on the front page recently, I give my thanks. Although I do not deserve that kind of recognition

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

Nell, Rev 14.9-10 (Warning) and 16.2 (1st Bowl) indicate plainly that those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast (whether Christians or not) will suffer the wrath of God. This implies that those who reject the mark and refuse to worship the Beast will be protected by God and spared from some of His judgment.

Personally, I believe pre-, mid-, and post-trib themes all have value, but who says that God has one common plan for all of His children? Perhaps all three are correct. Using the metaphor of a ripening harvest, perhaps each will be taken as they mature, some earlier and some later. according to their needs. I think most of the rapture time debates spring from the requirement that all God's children have a similar destiny.

Following this thought, I can't believe that all Christians will reject the mark of the Beast. I have never seen all Christians adhere to anything in total uniformity. Those who accept the mark may be part of the "falling away" apostasy which Paul predicted in 2 Ths 2.3. They may even side with the Beast for temporary gains. (Didn't Nee attempt something similar with the CCP?) I also think it's foolish to write them all off as false or tares, though some may be.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, Rev 14.9-10 (Warning) and 16.2 (1st Bowl) indicate plainly that those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast (whether Christians or not) will suffer the wrath of God. This implies that those who reject the mark and refuse to worship the Beast will be protected by God and spared from some of His judgment.

Personally, I believe pre-, mid-, and post-trib themes all have value, but who says that God has one common plan for all of His children? Perhaps all three are correct. Using the metaphor of a ripening harvest, perhaps each will be taken as they mature, some earlier and some later. according to their needs. I think most of the rapture time debates spring from the requirement that all God's children have a similar destiny.

Following this thought, I can't believe that all Christians will reject the mark of the Beast. I have never seen all Christians adhere to anything in total uniformity. Those who accept the mark may be part of the "falling away" apostasy which Paul predicted in 2 Ths 2.3. They may even side with the Beast for temporary gains. (Didn't Nee attempt something similar with the CCP?) I also think it's foolish to write them all off as false or tares, though some may be.

Thanks Ohio,
Good points to talk to the Lord about, huh?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Ohio,
Good points to talk to the Lord about, huh?

Nell

you mean like pullback or pushback?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

you mean like pullback or pushback?

Or both.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Oh, and whoever decided to "feature" one of my posts on the front page recently, I give my thanks. Although I do not deserve that kind of recognition

Well, every once in while I like to give recognition to a beautiful nut, and to the blind squirrel that found it.

Seriously though, I'm so proud of some of the great things that our forum members post, and sometimes I want to make sure lurkers and passerbys don't miss it.

Originally Posted by Nell

Thank UntoHim. He’s the forum big Kahuna.

Ah...so that's how you spell "Kahuna"!...Thanks Nell. I usually have to find out the proper context and spelling of big words from aron! And while I've got your attention, thank you so much for being the assistant Kahuna! (or would it be Kahuness?-)
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