Prophecy - The End Times

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

1. There will be a Great Revival
2. All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past...

Matt, I Cor 15.52 and I Th 4.15 are often joyously quoted, in fact, when I was saved 50 years ago, they were some of the very first verses I learned. That was the era of Hal Lindsey’s book “Late Great Planet Earth.”

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment. I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... . And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment.

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... . And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

The judgments on Egypt come to mind. Our loving Father definitely wants His children to mature, and hardships can help. Revelation speaks of both persecution by man, and judgment by God. Peter says "judgment begins in the house of God." But obviously God has wrath for those who reject His Son, take the mark of the beast, and worship the AntiChrist, or should we say "False Christ" since in so many ways this Man of Sin will establish himself as a counterfeit to the real Christ, Israel's real Messiah. He will convince much of the world that Jesus was a total failure, and he alone shall be worshiped as God.

Your comment "most would argue" kind of summarizes Revelation studies. And recently I have had quite a few.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

I am going to parse on this comment a bit later. I have a detailed expansion and explanation related to the 7th trumpet that may affect your current perception of it. (Maybe not... )

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

1 Timothy 4:1–3 (NASB95)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1 Tim 4:1 says the "Spirit explicitly says". We can only take this one of two ways. The Holy Spirit gave direct revelation to Paul with no OT Scriptural foundation OR The Holy Spirit gave Paul a spiritual understanding of OT Scripture and events which ARE the "Spirit explicitly say(ing)" something about the apostasy described in 1 Ti 4:1-3.

Here it is in the Old Testament. I have this by revelation from the Lord. I asked the Lord about this verse for more than 15 years and then one day He showed it to me. Feel free to give me a hard time because I am claiming it was revealed to me by the Lord.

Read Numbers 25 and I will comment on verses 1 and 2 after some contextual setup.

Contextual Setup: The congregation in the wilderness is a representation of the ekklessia. 1 Cor 10, says that these ones wilderness are "types" of us. The church in this age has a start and end as a typological picture in the Old Testament. The church age STARTS by exiting from Egypt and (I believe) ENDS near the time of the destruction of Jericho. Numbers 33 gives us a full review of the journey through the wilderness. There are 40-41 stops along the way. In Numbers 33:49, we see the LAST STOP (mapping 1 Tim 4:1 - "in later times"). The LAST STOP is Abel-****tim (aka ****tim or Baal-Peor). So, in the progression of the "ekklessia in the wilderness" we have a progression from beginning to end and we have the "latter times" of this journey.

This contextual setup helps us also see how Paul could set the timing of the Day of the Lord after the man of sin is revealed and apostasy. There is more proof than just the contextual setup.

Now, let's look at Numbers 25:1-2 which tells us what happens at the LAST STOP in the journey to the promised land.

1 While Israel remained at ****tim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.

There is a direct mapping between these two verses and 1 Tim 4:1

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

paying attention to deceitful or seducing spirits --> play the harlot with the daughters of Moab
paying attention to doctrines of demons --> invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods

The mapping to doctrines of demons may seem obscure. The children of Israel were supposed to eat the manna from heaven. This is a picture of spiritual food we partake of now. So, "meat sacrificed to idols" is a picture of spiritual food from the wrong source which are "doctrines of demons". For me, this means the apostasy is already in full swing and increasing right now.

There is more to say, but I will stop there. This leaves the "man of sin" as unaddressed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

I see one primary basis for the rapture as a single event. However, I also see that there will be a lot of martyrdom during the Great Tribulation. Martyrdom is not "the rapture", but it can be seen as the way that some leave the Great Tribulation earlier. I know this is an ugly view, but it is what I have considered to be able to account for Rev 7:9-17 as happening before a single event rapture.

My primary basis for the rapture as a single event is 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 and John 6:39-54. 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 both indicate the dead rise FIRST and then those who are alive and remain are raptured. This pushes the idea of rapture until after this first resurrection of the dead and these verses say ALL who are alive and remain will be raptured.

John 6:39-54 anchors this first resurrection of the dead "on the last day".

I understand what you are saying about first fruits and I agree that the ones who are taken up to the throne are firstfruits. (Do you link the Rev 12 - male child to the Rev 7 & 14 - 144k)

So, I do leave open the idea of two phases of rapture, but in general I do not think there is a "progressive" rapture. It seems there may be just two chunks with the rapture described in 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52 as being after the first resurrection which happens near the end of the Great Tribulation.

Comments?

Note: all my thinking on all the End Times stuff is based on tearing down everything I learned from others in the past and then just reading for 20+ years and various things emerged throughout the process as I asked questions of the Lord and He answered a little here, a little there.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1

Matt, since I have heard and read so many untrustworthy eschatological interpretations of OT prophecy, I do not look first to the OT. It can definitely provide details, context, and foundation for Revelation prophecy, but I look to the NT first and primarily.

For example, Daniel 9 speaks of the abomination in the Temple by the Prince. Perhaps this was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes in the Maccabees, or as some Preterists claim, by Nero in the 1st Century. But since a physical Temple is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, Paul in 2 Thess 2, and John in Revelation 11, I have complete confidence in its literal fulfillment.

I Tim 4 does describe details of the end times, including especially the children of God. Some say this is happening now, some say this has been happening since Acts 5. Like you, I do believe the final days will bring out the worst in many.

What jumped out to me 4 years ago during Covid was that "The Apostasy" was a clearly identifiable event which will occur near in time to when the Man of Sin is clearly "revealed" to all. Prior to this, the actual character of the First Therion Beast will be hidden from most people. It seems that most of Israel will mistake him for their Messiah. (Matt 24.5)

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

This verse 2 Thess 2.3 should be read in parallel with Revelation 13.15, otherwise it doesn't make sense. And Matt, since you prefer OT foundation, Daniel 3.14-18 comes to mind.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

The passage above ends with a call for the endurance of the saints and for them to remain faithful to Jesus just like Daniel's friends when they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image at the threat of death.

It will be a time of testing to reveal who are the true and false Christians.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.