Prophecy - The End Times

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1

Matt, since I have heard and read so many untrustworthy eschatological interpretations of OT prophecy, I do not look first to the OT. It can definitely provide details, context, and foundation for Revelation prophecy, but I look to the NT first and primarily.

For example, Daniel 9 speaks of the abomination in the Temple by the Prince. Perhaps this was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes in the Maccabees, or as some Preterists claim, by Nero in the 1st Century. But since a physical Temple is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, Paul in 2 Thess 2, and John in Revelation 11, I have complete confidence in its literal fulfillment.

I Tim 4 does describe details of the end times, including especially the children of God. Some say this is happening now, some say this has been happening since Acts 5. Like you, I do believe the final days will bring out the worst in many.

What jumped out to me 4 years ago during Covid was that "The Apostasy" was a clearly identifiable event which will occur near in time to when the Man of Sin is clearly "revealed" to all. Prior to this, the actual character of the First Therion Beast will be hidden from most people. It seems that most of Israel will mistake him for their Messiah. (Matt 24.5)

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

This verse 2 Thess 2.3 should be read in parallel with Revelation 13.15, otherwise it doesn't make sense. And Matt, since you prefer OT foundation, Daniel 3.14-18 comes to mind.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

The passage above ends with a call for the endurance of the saints and for them to remain faithful to Jesus just like Daniel's friends when they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image at the threat of death.

It will be a time of testing to reveal who are the true and false Christians.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever.

Not exactly.

The warning in Rev 14.9-10 says this: And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image AND receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”

I agree that “The Apostasy” will be identified when many Christians take the mark of the Beast due to the extreme persecution from the beast. The 2nd Beast probably will publicize this event with great fanfare. But the verse actually includes the word “AND.” This is significant. Some will take the mark but NOT worship the beast and its image. This may seem like a technicality, but important at the Judgment for some. For others, this may identify them as Tares.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some will take the mark but NOT worship the beast and its image. This may seem like a technicality, but important at the Judgment for some. For others, this may identify them as Tares.

It could also be the other way around.

In Revelation 14:9-11 worship of the beast and its image is followed by receiving the mark. This order is also repeated in Revelation 13:15-16:

15. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads

The penalty of not worshipping the image is to be martyred and those who remain will likely go on to take the mark. So in this view, all those who take the mark would have also worshipped the image first to save their own life.

[Nell]

In light of current events related to Israel and Iran, I thought it would be interesting to bring this topic from 2022 to the top again. Scroll down to the opening post.

Nell

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Nell

In light of current events related to Israel and Iran, I thought it would be interesting to bring this topic from 2022 to the top again. Scroll down to the opening post.

Nell

To the post that says Armageddon will happen in 2022?

[bearbear]

Esther 3:12-13
On the thirteenth day of Nisan, Haman called in the king's secretaries and ordered them to write letters in every language used in the kingdom. The letters were written in the name of the king and sealed by using the king's own ring. At once they were sent to the king's highest officials, the governors of each province, and the leaders of the different nations in the kingdom of Xerxes.

The letters were taken by messengers to every part of the kingdom, and this is what was said in the letters:

On the thirteenth day of Adar, the twelfth month, all Jewish men, women, and children are to be killed. And their property is to be taken.

The 13th of Nisan on the Hebrew Calendar is April 2nd in our 2015 calendar. April 2nd 2015 also happens to be the date when the Iran Nuclear deal was announced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKP4_3a9m4E