Prophecy - The End Times

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am not so sure Jesus is coming “FOR” us since it does not say He will touch the ground and pick us up. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we will meet the LORD in the air. The dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive AND REMAIN (hmm ��) will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Interesting that it says “we who are alive AND REMAIN”. I do have some thoughts on why it says “and remain”. But that’s for another day.

I am curious to hear what you have to say... after all, it is now "another day".

A lot rides on this phrase "alive AND remain" if it is being used to support a rapture before the second coming.

Young's translation reads this way:

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (1Th*4:17*YLT)

Note the missing word "and", which the more honest translations will put in italics, indicating that it is not in the Greek.

Young's uses a comma, not a conjunction. This changes the meaning of the verse significantly, and Young's translation is more consistent with the context. As I stated before, Paul is trying to assure the Thessalonians that those who died will see Christ first, at the resurrection. Period. If he believed in a pre-resurrection rapture, this passage would have read differently.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I am curious to hear what you have to say... after all, it is now "another day".

A lot rides on this phrase "alive AND remain" if it is being used to support a rapture before the second coming.

Young's translation reads this way:

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (1Th*4:17*YLT)

Note the missing word "and", which the more honest translations will put in italics, indicating that it is not in the Greek.

Young's uses a comma, not a conjunction. This changes the meaning of the verse significantly, and Young's translation is more consistent with the context. As I stated before, Paul is trying to assure the Thessalonians that those who died will see Christ first, at the resurrection. Period. If he believed in a pre-resurrection rapture, this passage would have read differently.

Thank you for your question. To be clear I truly believe there will be a catching up, a harpazo, or rapture before the second coming of Christ in which every eye will see Him. In fact I think there is going to be more than one rapture but that’s a topic for another time. You may not think so, but that is ok by me. After all we are still here!! And this is just food for thought.


So in Matthew 27:52, of it reads “Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the [a]saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

In 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 we read that
in the twinkling or blink of an eye, the dead (in Christ) shall be raised …and we shall be changed. we will put on our Glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Our bodies will now be Glorified.

Philippians 3:21 says

(Our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ); will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His Glorious Body,


It seems POSSIBLE, repeat POSSIBLE (no actual proof) that when we are changed into our Glorified bodies in the twinkling of an eye, we might remain here for a short time just as many of the the resurrected saints of the OT did when Jesus resurrected as we read in Matthew 27:52.

Why cannot that happen? After all 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we who are alive AND REMAIN! Or as Young’s literal translation reads

And the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Regardless of the translation, the dead in Christ rise first correct? Then we who are living, who are remaining over… WOW, That really brings Mathew 27 to light if you ask me! Those resurrected saints from the OT remained over in Jerusalem!

I think just as the resurrected remained on earth for some time, we could very well remain ourselves.

We have biblical proof that many bodies of the OT saints when they resurrected remained in Jerusalem and appeared to many.

Imagine if our loved ones, friends, neighbors, coworkers saw us in our Glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies before we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air???

What a Glorious testimony! How many people might get saved then. They might not get caught up like we did, but they will be saved and be with the Lord at some point. Again FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

I do want to get back to the Russia/Gog discussion… hopefully sometime today.

Blessings from our Beloved LORD AND KING

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth. and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Frie...

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth. and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

Frie,

I understand your concern...your fears. I think we all share your feelings to one extent or another. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a horror show and we don't know where it will go. We don't know if it's the beginning of the end but it certainly looks like a piece of the end-times puzzle is in play. It would be hard to look at all the things happening now, and not see the seriousness of what's happening.

My prayer is that the Lord will make me ready for whatever comes my way. He is the only one who can do that. He can calm our fears. I don't want to die either. We have no assurances of our time on earth. I talk to Him daily like he's a real person...because he is. I can give you a bunch of verses about trusting Him, etc., but you probably know them as well as I do. The only thing that helps me is to just talk to Him. That has been my practice throughout my Christian walk.

I hope this helps. If you care to request a forum account, we could talk further in the Private Message system, if that would be helpful.

We are told to watch and pray. If you can, talk to Him and watch, and pray, that you will be ready when your time comes...whether that be next month or 30 years from now.

Blessings to you, Frie
Nell

[Nell]

Outline of Revelation, Enhanced 8/26/2024 by Nell
Rev. 1:1-20 – John commissioned by Jesus
Rev. 2:1-3:22— Message to the 7 churches
Ephesus
Smyrna
Pergamos
Thyatira
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Rev. 4:1-5; 5:1-4— Heavenly Court and 7-Sealed Scroll
Throne, 24 elders, 4 “good beasts”
Book with 7 seals
Lamb worthy to open the book

Rev. 6:1-17 – 7 Seals, Judgment
1st Seal—White horse, one of the four beasts, conquering and to conquer
2nd Seal—Red horse, second beast, take peace from the earth, kill
3rd Seal—Black horse, third beast, “a balance”, food shortage, finance?
4th Seal—Pale horse, fourth beast, death and hell
5th Seal—souls of them that were slain cry out
6th Seal—Earthquake; sun blackened, moon as blood; the great day of wrath

Rev. 7:1-17 Sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 8:1-9:21 7th Seal; ½ hour silence in heaven. 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Prayers of the saints.
1st angel; hail and fire with blood; third part of trees, all green grass burnt up.
2nd angel; 3rd part of the sea became blood; 3rd part of the creatures in the sea died; 3rd part of the ships were destroyed.
3rd angel; great star from heaven fell, burning as a lamp on the 3rd part of the rivers, and the fountains of waters; star is called Wormwood: many died of the bitter waters
4th angel; 3rd part of the sun, moon stars darkened. 3 woes: Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev. 10:1-11—11:13 Seal up the things spoken by the seven thunders
Rev. 11:14-19 7th Trumpet
Rev. 12:1—14:20 12 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
13 Beast out of the sea.
14 The Lamb with 144,000

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT. (Matt Anderson: 8/26/2024)

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates[a] to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Revelation14
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. (Insert by Nell)

Rev. 15:1—16:21 7 Bowls

Rev. 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
(Added by Nell: 8/26/2024)

Rev. 17:1-19—19:10 Judgment of Babylon the Great
Rev 19, 21. 2nd Coming

Rev 20: 7 - 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev. 21:9—22:5 The beast and false prophecied judged.
Rev. 22:6—22:21 Final Exhortation


NOTES: I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment. I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

I Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.
--Matt Anderson 8/26/2024

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

Originally Posted by Nell

Outline of Revelation
Rev. 1:1-20 – John commissioned by Jesus
Rev. 2:1-3:22— Message to the 7 churches
Ephesus
Smyrna
Pergamos
Thyatira
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Rev. 4:1-5; 5:1-4— Heavenly Court and 7-Sealed Scroll
Throne, 24 elders, 4 “good beasts”
Book with 7 seals
Lamb worthy to open the book

Rev. 6:1-17 – 7 Seals, Judgment
1st Seal—White horse, one of the four beasts, conquering and to conquer
2nd Seal—Red horse, second beast, take peace from the earth, kill
3rd Seal—Black horse, third beast, “a balance”, food shortage, finance?
4th Seal—Pale horse, fourth beast, death and hell
5th Seal—souls of them that were slain cry out
6th Seal—Earthquake; sun blackened, moon as blood; the great day of wrath

Rev. 7:1-17 Sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 8:1-9:21 7th Seal; ½ hour silence in heaven. 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Prayers of the saints.
1st angel; hail and fire with blood; third part of trees, all green grass burnt up.
2nd angel; 3rd part of the sea became blood; 3rd part of the creatures in the sea died; 3rd part of the ships were destroyed.
3rd angel; great star from heaven fell, burning as a lamp on the 3rd part of the rivers, and the fountains of waters; star is called Wormwood: many died of the bitter waters
4th angel; 3rd part of the sun, moon stars darkened. 3 woes: Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev. 10:1-11—11:13 Seal up the things spoken by the seven thunders
Rev. 11:14-19 7th Trumpet
Rev. 12:1—14:20 12 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
13 Beast out of the sea.
14 The Lamb with 144,000

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev. 15:1—16:211 7 Bowls
Rev. 17:1-19—19:10 Judgment of Babylon the Great
Rev 19, 21. 2nd Coming

Rev 20: 7 - 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev. 21:9—22:5 The beast and false prophed judged.
Rev. 22:6—22:21 Final Exortation

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ex-LC-Rosemead

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

Thank you for the chart! BTW, where do you think we are in the Revelation timeline?

Nell

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Frie...

I'm terribly scared that the ukraine / russia conflict is the beginning of the last bad time on earth.

it´s still going to take some time for the very last bad time on earth. There are many things that need to line up and happen before that.

Originally Posted by Frie...

and I'm not ready. I'm saved, but I don't want to die in the war if it spreads to Germany.

Nobody can say rightly that "they are ready." So we all need to press on. The Lord understands and He is merciful, we just have to continue growing and doing His will and word.

NATO has big muscles, although anything can happen, the likelihood that this would spread to war in Germany seems pretty low.

Thanks for the kind words Raptor & Nell, I'll look at this for revelation. Membership here is difficult. I do not speak English. Google doesn't translate very well. I pray a lot in tongues, now for the situation, probably mainly for the saints, unfortunately I don't understand myself what I'm speaking.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Frie...

Thanks for the kind words Raptor & Nell, I'll look at this for revelation. Membership here is difficult. I do not speak English. Google doesn't translate very well. I pray a lot in tongues, now for the situation, probably mainly for the saints, unfortunately I don't understand myself what I'm speaking.

Frie…

Thank you for posting. We will pray for you.

We will also help you as best we can with the language barrier if you want to give membership a try. There are other translators that might work better for you.

Regardless, please stay in touch.
Nell

[Nell]

Rev. 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The timing of the Magog/Russia, Ezekiel 37-38 battle, as seen above, occurs after the millennium when Satan is loosed, defeated by God Himself, then cast into the lake of fire. The timing is notable in contrast to the current events today regarding Russia. A lot of things will happen before this event.

Nell