Whistleblower

[Nell]

Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported. It's called blowing the whistle, saying NO MORE. There is NO spiritual justification for sexual abuse.

While I have not been a victim of sexual abuse, I have been a "whistleblower" in the workplace. My coworkers and I were exposed to criminal behavior in a government agency on the part of our direct supervisor. We contacted the FBI because we did not trust the Inspector General's office for that agency. The FBI contacted the US Secret Service who, in turn, brought in the IG that we didn't trust. This created "oversight" of the entire process. We reported the crime, because it is also a crime to have knowledge of, but not report criminal behavior to the authorities.

If you choose to become a whistleblower in any environment, bring in an outside advocate. (We brought in the FBI.) If you choose to report sexual abuse in the Local Church, don't report it internally. Because of the intensely closed Local Church culture, you don't know who you can trust. Get a lawyer, then go to the police.

This was not easy for my coworkers and I. There was a price. The stress was enormous. I eventually was terribly humiliated when I was unjustly fired from my job. All of my coworkers who reported the crime lost their jobs. Regardless, the Lord was with me and I had some amazing experiences of his love and care for me. I told the truth and was greatly blessed for doing so. Still, it wasn't easy. I told my story on a TV interview, as did another of my coworkers. But we all paid a high price. I could never again apply for a job and check the box "Have you ever been fired from a job?" with a "NO." But there was also a price for the criminals in my office. One of my coworkers, under direction of the Secret Service, "wore a wire" to gather evidence. The criminal actually tried to recruit my coworker on this wire tap, to join their criminal activity.

There was a "raid" on my office. The criminals were removed. Their homes were searched. They confessed to their crime and lost their jobs. They can never again work for a government agency. They bargained for "deferred adjudication" and avoided going to prison and a criminal felony record.

I'm telling you this to say that I'm not just preaching about reporting a crime with no experience. I'm a whistleblower myself. Federal laws were changed after my coworkers and I became whistleblowers. We actually gained the direct support of a member of the U.S. Senate.

You will notice that I keep saying "my coworkers and I." We did what we did together. I don't think I could have done this alone. The Local Church is not above the law. In this #METOO climate, when you report your assault to the police, it will not be swept under the massive Local Church rug.

I would not tell anyone what to do, but I would like to encourage those who were abused in the Local Churches to consider their options today. Think about the others who come after you. Pray about it. If you would like to talk further, PM me and we could perhaps even discuss further on the "sisters only" forum.

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Blessings to you all--

Nell

[Ohio]

Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."

Ohio, you're welcome.

I will say that my suffering during my ordeal was temporary. I recovered, found a new and better job and I rarely think of this experience. What I can take away from the experience is that God loves me and cares for me like none other. Also, it's important to tell the truth.

From what I can see, those who experienced sexual abuse in the Local Church (or any other place) as young women cannot yet say "I recovered." Sexual abuse and/or assault happens to your body. It happens to your soul. It takes something away that can never be regained. I pray for these young women who have posted their experiences and commend them for their bravery.

As to the criminals who perpetrated these crimes against young women, their sisters in Christ perhaps, I do not have the assurance that these Local Church men are in fact brothers. I pose this question because, as the scriptures say, "by their fruit you shall know them."

This criminal behavior, sexual sin, is the fruit of the ministry of Witness Lee. Lee's own son was a sexual predator. WL knew this and did nothing about it. Well...except banish those who exposed Phillip's sinful behavior--in the Living Stream office no less.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported.

Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee (Ni Tuosheng), admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.

[Nell]

History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

This is the earliest instance of sexual immorality, known to me, in the Local Church. Watchman Nee's immorality was not made public until the last few years. Witness Lee's son, Philip was a predator and was reported by the sister in "the office" to John Ingalls as described below. The events that followed resulted in a disaster in the Church in Anaheim which included the excommunication of Philip Lee. In another instance, a brother walked in on Philip and a sister in "the office." The brother was devastated and reported what he saw to Max Rapoport.

In the cases I will bring to the forefront, Witness Lee's solution was a coverup. We can also surmise that the situation continues today because of Lee's disastrous failures.

I have heard stories about sexual immorality in the Local Churches for years. Some of you have probably heard stories as well.

Below are excerpts from Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls which is posted on this forum here where the elders attempted to reason with Lee on the seriousness of his son's behavior and the need to deal with his son. I also have a copy of this story which was reported in the Los Angeles Times.

John Ingalls (deceased) and Godfred Otuteye were elders in the Church in Anaheim at the time.

A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
September 1987

On the following Tuesday, Sept. 29th, Godfred (Otuteye – O two tay) left for a business trip to Europe. On the next day, Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her. I had been acquainted with this sister for many years and knew her to be faithful, upright, and trustworthy; therefore, I took her word very seriously. I was amazed that she could put up with such conduct for so long. She stated that she tolerated it only for the sake of Brother Lee and his ministry. She said that she had no other recourse but to resign. I confirmed her intention.

That conversation utterly shocked me. I deeply felt that something must be done to acquaint Brother Lee with the situation and to let him know that we would not tolerate it. I obtained Godfred’s telephone number in Europe and called him a soon as the difference in time zones permitted, telling him the things that had come to my ears. Godfred listened and said that he already knew it. I was amazed. That night I considered what could be done. That we had to go to Brother Lee I was certain.
...

PART TWO
ANOTHER SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
December 19,1987

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze.

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery! We felt that Benson Phillips and Ray Graver, who were deeply involved in the LSM operation, must surely know something of these matters. Therefore, we resolved to confer with them about this when we got to Irving.

...

At this time Witness Lee could have put a leash on his son Philip but he did not.

More to come.

Nell

[awareness]

Good post and quotes Nell.

I'm nervous to even bring this up.

Don Hardy was very close with Witness Lee and his family. In a long list of emails he tells goings-on that would pop your eyeballs out, of all kinds on sexual goings-on at the top level of the LC.

Years ago I got a copy of them and wanted to share them with exLCers I'm still friends with. So I put them up on my domain, thinking to send the specific link to my friends, and not the whole WWW.

But that darn Google Spider found the page, so that they showed up if anyone searched for Don Hardy. And lo and behold brother Hardy found them. I was told I had to take them down.

And I did right away. Why? Because of fear of lawsuits by the Lee corporate system, and legal department, aka Defense and Confirmation Project, Inc - DCP.

The practice of suing their critics works to shut down the ugly truth of what really goes on at the top levels of the LC.

The practice of covering up sexual abuse, like what we see with the pedophile priest in the RCC, to protect the image and reputation of the institution, happens also in the local church.

So sister Nell, the information you shared from Speaking the Truth in Love, by John Ingalls, who was also close with the top inner circle, has been covered up in the local church, just as Don Hardy's revelations of the inner goings-on is covered up. And, btw, Lily Hsu's book, "My Unforgettable Memories - Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church," that reveals the sexual infractions by Nee, is also hidden from those in the local church.

Maybe that's because they know, "the truth shall set you free." Like it did to the very close co-workers of Witness Lee, when Lee and Co. was covering up Philip Lee ... and btw, the cover up of Lee's other son, Timothy Lee. His sexual infractions, with married sisters, is hardly mentioned anywhere. Hardy tells of them, because he caught Tim with is wife - now ex-wife. And Witness knew of it for 9 years, and told Hardy's wife to keep it secret.

If you ask me, Lee brought Nee's ministry to America, and Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual practices to America. Even tho it was known to at least 2500 in Shanghai, when Nee confessed, Witness Lee covered that up too.

Some "Recovery" that is.

Thanks again Nell.

Harold

[Nell]

Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

Nell

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee, admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.

I hadn't known about Nee having a serious moral problem till I read Lily Hsu's book. You could feel her deep sentiment and heavy heart in addressing the tumult that had left the church badly shaken involving her brother in Christ, Watchman Nee, and two of her sisters in the Lord - in incidents she determined to share candidly, and carefully. I have never heard of, or experienced, such a devastating scene of disillusionment and sadness in the church as what Lily depicts and brings to light regarding both government and church judgment in an upheaval and exposure of their brother of high regard, Ni Tuosheng.

Book: My Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church

The opening quote stunned me when I first read it, and unless I missed something about Nee's sentencing, i think the report could be meaningfully adjusted for accuracy's sake, if someone has enough confidence in what could be changed. (And what I have shared here, or will share, someone please adjust, if necessary, for even a small point or mis-impression on this, a most humanly sensitive subject, on a potentially volatile thread.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

Nell

I wouldn't without Don Hardy's permission. However, hit me in PM.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

I think this statement gives us the heart of the matter. It is the theme of this thread. And too many of the posts that have followed are taking us away from the general theme. That's probably on me. My bad.

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee.

-

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee. -

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?

-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?

UntoHim,

No one wants to avoid and evade the subject. However, challenging yours and others characterization about the subject is fair game and I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. Furthermore, in this topic and in other topics what you call a passing comment is often not just passing at all but often used to bolster the main argument or use it as a proof point. It too, is fair game ...else by letting it stand unchallenged one might infer that there is tacit agreement on our part.

Even letting your post quoted above go unchallenged could give someone the impression that those of us challenging Nell’s absurd accusations are trying to avoid and evade which we are not. And it is transparent that Nells cry of “Off-Topic” is her attempt to control the arc of the dialogue by letting your and those of her companions remarks stand and by censoring Evangelicals .....as she attempted with me previously. ZNP rightly pointed out that Nell legitimized as on topic a point she then criticized as off topic.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.
-

[Drake]

-1

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “....

.....:And the accusation of “rape” by forum members is ok with you.

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.
-

UntoHim,

You are correct. Thank you for your support.

Rule #1 of writing is "write about what you know".

John Ingalls' "Speaking the Truth in Love" is the classic. He wrote about the sister who came to him and poured out her heart and soul, exposing the sinful behavior of her abuser, at great personal risk to both of them.

As long as this book exists, it will remain the testament of sexual abuse in the Local Church. To deny John's account of Phillip Lee's sexual behavior in the LC, as documented by him in STTIL, you may as well deny the abuse of young boys in the Catholic Church. As with the LC, the question is not "did it really happen" but "how bad was it" and "is it still happening."

After having been out of the LC for a period of years, I went back to a meeting in Irving one Sunday morning. The only thing I remember about that meeting was the looks on the faces of the sisters. Blank. No smiles. No frowns. Just blank. The men were up and down with the fist pump. Declaring "I'm so happy in this lovely place." Even a few sisters gave testimonies but their faces were still blank.

Jane Anderson described it as a "good old boys club". And the "good old boys" are still blind as bats. And if you're in the club, you don't get to vote.

Nell

[JLBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

[Nell]

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by JLBW

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

Don't worry about Drake, JLBW. He's a serial prevaricator, and worse. He's probably mentally ill.

Thanks for stepping up and standing up to him.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Yet once more, for the sake of our readers, I will place this quote this from Nell's opening post to the forefront. This encapsulates all that Nell was really trying to get across in starting this thread. She can correct me if I'm wrong. As I have previously made clear, NO NAMES OF THE VICTIMS WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM HERSELF/HIMSELF. NO IDENTIFYING DETAILS ABOUT THE VICTIMS OR SPECIFIC DETAILS ABOUT THE ABUSE WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM. If anybody wants "proof" about the abuse, and covering up of the abuse, they can start their own forum and then censor the heck out of the victims, and those crying out on behalf of the victims, and then claim the moral victory before the Internet audience. Actually, such websites already exist. They are administered and under the full control of the official leaders of the Local Church of Witness Lee - The Blended Brothers.

In the meantime. The victims will have a voice here - either directly or indirectly through sisters like Nell and the other sisters that have posted here through the years. AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT FACING THE UNRIGHTEOUS, UNFAIR AND DESPICABLE IMPUGNING BY LOCAL CHURCH BROTHERS WHOSE ONLY CARE IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THEIR RELIGION, THE FOUNDER OF THEIR RELIGION AND THE CURRENT LEADERS WITHIN THEIR RELIGION.

If, as the admin of this forum, I am found to be error for giving girls/women/sisters a voice, then I will be found in error. But let it be known that my error will be on the side of caution for the sake of innocent girls/women/sisters - and on the side of God and God's Word I believe.
-

[Evangelical]

OK so you've given them a voice now where are the voices? Can we count them? How many voices can we see here?

As Drake pointed out, so far nothing relevant has been discussed other than goings on with PL , Watchman Nee and nothing really to suggest that "is it still happening" is true. If there was anything of substance today, would we need to keep repeating these things?

We've heard about atmospheres. We've heard about women with blank faces and the curse of Genesis. Drake was blamed for something, I still don't know what. Even the example that Nell gave in the OP was not related to the local churches but to her workplace. There's really been no attempts by any local church people to censor or evade, because no one has really said much at all.

[JLBW]

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by JLBW

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.

JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

Here we go again, gnats and camels...

Not "I'm sorry for your suffering." Not "I'm praying for your healing." But rather, "What little detail of your testimony can I slant to cast doubt on your credibility?" Gnats and camels, gnats and camels...

[UntoHim]

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

Originally Posted by JLBW

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them.
I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did.

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.
-

JLBW,
I am repeating myself as well:

... Also, Martha and Mary's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Remember, if you want to, we can take the points of Whistleblower to Martha and Mary's House. I think the honorable brothers on this forum have much to contribute, and I hate that it may come to this. Regardless, it's not likely that Drake can control himself.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.
-

UntoHim,

Please, stop threatening me with moderation. I've read it several times so don't worry about that. Furthermore, I've done nothing, nor said a single thing worthy of even a minor edit. On the other hand, you've allowed this christian forum to become a pit of profanity without raising a pinky finger to moderate the perpetrator of such despicable language. How many more profanity laced asterisks are in our future? Where does such pathetic vocabulary go next?

I, on the other hand, am very concerned about this sister. You see, it's not enough for her to simply sweep it under the proverbial rug. Nor will it be helpful that she holds on to the experience by reliving it here over and over. That is not progression and that will never reach closure. You have any experience in dealing with this sort of thing in any religious or secular settings besides this forum? No? I have.

I have no reason to doubt her personal experience and I am also for taking the appropriate action including "sicking" the law as needed... for if there is any sicking to be done that is perhaps where it should come from. She made a general statement based on a personal experience. Was it an elder or just a local active leading brother? Was it elders that advised to inaction or her parents? Was she a minor? Do you know? That matters. If so, how about you step up and agree to do the right thing by her and not use her for bashing others as is the SOP in this forum. How about that? Frankly, this forum is ill-equipped to handle this or is that not apparent? The most that can be done by any of us is to advise to facilitate her into an environment where she can get real help... and justice.

Or is it just an easier path to use this sister's personal experience to bash and generalize about all the Lords' brothers in the group you dislike? Are there incidents? I'm sure there are. Is it "rampant".... we'll see.

You don't like an honest conversation like that, well, I cannot help that, UntoHim. It's your forum and you get to exclude any thoughts you disagree with... maybe that sounds familiar to you? My observation is that this forum is the least tolerant of any internet group I have ever been a part of. Just don't take advantage of this sister because she is saying want you want to hear. It's a sensitive subject but that is not an excuse to hide behind. At least, I will step up on her behalf.

Drake

[Awoken]

[Hm.. removing this for now, so as not to take focus off the things being spoken of. Suffice it to say I sympathize, at least to some degree, with the victims of these wrongdoings.]

[Nell]

Bringing this forward again. There is a tremendous amount of information, including first-hand accounts about the abuse occurring in the LC Leadership. It began with Witness Lee himself when he covered up his son Philip's behavior.

Another topic to review is "What's going on in OKC".

From the "ChurchKid" video, we see the pattern continues in epidemic proportions.

Nell