Whistleblower

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Questions. Have you ever read the accounts of the victims of LSM's abuses?

Yes... On a few occasions over many years.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Or do you just believe that LSM like most ministries is good and wholesome?

If by "ministries" you are referring to the content of the ink published on the paper... In my experience what I've read from the ministry has been good.

If by "ministries" you're referring to the people associated with the content of the ink that is published on the paper, then no, as scripture is clear... Only God is good.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This would greatly determine the kind of "sense" you have developed over time.

Actually...

The only determination that you could gain regarding my sense of the matter that I have developed over time would either be that given to you by the Lord... Or that contrived by you in and out of your natural man.

And if you were clear about scripture, you would be clear about that.

Hope that helps.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

Actually...

The only determination that you could gain regarding my sense of the matter that I have developed over time would either be that given to you by the Lord... Or that contrived by you in and out of your natural man.

And if you were clear about scripture, you would be clear about that.

Hope that helps.

Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.

Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business. But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?

Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story. I and many others were greatly deceived, and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.

[awareness]

I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale there was a brother I knew but wasn't close to. I didn't get to know him until after leaving the LC.

Turns out he was caught several times in the parking lot doing the nasty with the young daughters of the saints. The girls were underage, but were active participants in the deed. He was dealt with in each case, it was statutory rape, but the law was never called. Why? Because it would have brought public scandal and shame to the church ... and to the Lord.

This matter of public scandal is what motivates the cover up. We see it today with e RCC, who is presently sitting on evidence of sexual crimes upon young boys by declaring the sovereignty of the state of the Vatican. But it happens in churches all across this land, of the Protestant sort too, not just in the local churches.

And no one wants to shame the church. For obvious reasons. No one wants to shame the Lord.

Churches, of course, are full of sinners, so sins are going to happen. And when they happen the reflex of the loyal members is going to be to cover it up ... especially if it was a crime. And who pays the price? The victim.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that Philip Lee committed rape? Or that other like crimes were covered up?

Have I missed something? I haven't seen that yet.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

Because of his position in LSM I think it is very reasonable to say the charge would have been sexual assault. There is a fine line between the two. Both are felonies.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.

My brother Ohio...

I "...jump into..." hornets nests almost every day as I participate in online forum discussions... And I've been doing so for some almost twenty years.

I mourn this... But I'm not fearful of it... As He who is in me is greater than he who is in any hornet's nest.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business.

Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6:10... "So then, as we have the opportunity, let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith."

And seeing that scripture tells us that God is after one thing... The built up church, we should most of all care for His body of believers, as this is to...

Psalms 100:2... "Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; Come before His presence with joyful singing."

Originally Posted by Ohio

But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?

This is the way of the fallen old man... Divide and conquer.

Those who propagated the British Empire exemplified this way.

The folly Roman Catholic religious institution exemplifies this way.

Folly Christianity exemplifies this way.

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?

Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Ephesians 6:18... "By means of all prayer and petition, praying at bevery time in spirit and watching unto this in all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints,..."

Colossians 4:2... "Persevere in prayer, watching in it with thanksgiving,..."

And to have the following mindset...

Psalms 16... "Preserve me, O God, for I take refuge in You... I say to Jehovah, You are my Lord; No good have I beyond You;... As for the saints who are on the earth, they are the excellent; All my delight is in them... The sorrows of them who bartered for some other god will be multiplied; Their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, Nor will I take up their names upon my lips... Jehovah is the portion of my inheritance and of my cup; You maintain my lot... The measuring lines have fallen on pleasant places for me; Indeed the inheritance is beautiful to me... I will bless Jehovah, who counsels me; Indeed in the nights my inward parts instruct me... I have set Jehovah before me continually; Because He is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken... Therefore my heart rejoices and my glory exults; Even my flesh dwells securely... For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, Nor let Your Holy One see the pit... You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand there are pleasures forever."

And...

1 Peter 3:14-15... "But even if you suffer because of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not be afraid with fear from them, nor be troubled,... But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, being always ready for a defense to everyone who asks of you an account concerning the hope which is in you,..."

A believer can choose to look at humanity...

Or to look only at Christ Jesus.

Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.

But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting...

That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story.

And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place.

Scriture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good.

I don't.

We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them.

We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Hebrews 12:1-2... "Therefore let us also, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, put away every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race which is set before us,... Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God."

"...Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith..."

That's it.

Nothing else matters.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I and many others were greatly deceived,..."

John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality?

If you are a born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus... You most certainly do.

And if you do... Then you could have been guided into all reality regarding any situation you encountered.

And the same is true of other born again believers.

Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?

Originally Posted by Ohio

...and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.

My brother...

According to scripture...

The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.

2 Corinthians 3:18... "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."

Psalms 27:4... "One thing I have asked from Jehovah; That do I seek: To dwell in the house of Jehovah All the days of my life, To behold the beauty of Jehovah, And to inquire in His temple."

Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Steel

My brother Ohio...
I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.

Very funny, reminds me of me. Thanks.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Steel

...Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.
Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".

Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?

[Nell]

I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

...
I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.
...
I wish you all the best in your journey!

Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.
Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38

Well I know if a very burning brother, who looked to be very given to the church, that was molesting his own daughters. But he wasn't in leadership, and it wasn't found out until the girls grew up and left the LC. I liked the brother. You never know someone.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.
Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

I don't think anyone is trying to determine that rape was committed. That's a red herring brought forth from our friend Drake. He produced a quote from Ohio from years and years ago on another thread. NOT RELEVANT TO OUR DISCUSSIONS HERE.

What is not in dispute is the fact that Phillip Lee was a sexual predator of the worse kind - one that was placed in a "position of trust". And the person who put Phillip in this person of trust position was none other than his father, Witness Lee. It is a documented fact that Witness Lee was made fully aware of Phillip's deviant behavior going back at least to the mid-70s. Can there be any doubt that it goes back further in time?

There is absolutely no excuse for Witness Lee allowing his son to be placed in a position of trust with women/sisters. The entire ministry of Lee and even the entire Local Church movement was polluted and defiled by these two men - Phillip as the predator and Witness as the enabler. Any blessing that was experienced in the Local Church was in despite of these two men, and not because of them. And we don't have to wait to "let the Lord judge"....The Lord has already judged sin and death. He has already condemned sin in the flesh. Yes, "we will all appear before the judgement seat" at some point in the future. But the church is NOW. The genuine New Testament ministry is NOW. Women and children should be honored and protected NOW...in this life - we don't have to worry about the life to come....God himself will see to it that women and children are honored and protected in his Kingdom.

The church is watching. The world is watching. The public is watching. Satan and his fallen angels are watching. God is watching too. Local Churchers talk a lot about "bringing the Lord back". What will he come back to?

Quote from John Ingalls in Speaking the Truth in Love:
"and all of this happened in what we call 'The Lord's Recovery'.".

Yes, brother John, all this happened in what we call The Lord's Recovery. And what is worse, I greatly fear, is that it is still happening to this very day. May God have mercy on us, his people.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?

Nope... But it sure seems by the gross dishonesty in your speaking regarding your veiled suggestion of what I'm saying that you have no problem holding to and expressing your old fallen man.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?
Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age." For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities. Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled. In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church. Are not church leaders held to higher standards? Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God? Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches. But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting ... That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?
Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery. He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses. In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard. But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others. Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place. Scripture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good. We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them. We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much." Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM. Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality? Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

My brother... According to scripture... The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures? Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post. 3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful? And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Oneness among the siants is always a good thing my brother.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age."..."

No such designation in scripture.

And if the "...LC members..." did there due diligence regarding their searching the scriptures they would have know this.

Also... Hopefully being born again of the Spirit, and therefore having the Spirit in them to turn to so that the Spirit could reveal the reality of the situation... They would not have had to depend on what others presented Witness Lee as.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities.

Fallen humans do fallen human things.

Read scripture... It says so very clearly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled.

"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

Originally Posted by Ohio

In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church.

Praise the Lord.

Are you not familiar with this scripture verses...

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Or do you just choose to not believe it.

And don't you know that scripture tells us that a believer must suffer even as the Lord suffered... And that we learn (grow with the growth of God) in and through our sufferings?

Surely you know this.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are not church leaders held to higher standards?

Those who are put in positions of leadership by the Lord are held to the requirements of their given position.

The standard that they are held to is the same standard all believers are held to... That standard being Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God?

In Christ, yes.

Not in their natural humanity.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

Elders of a local church should always carefully consider anything being applied to the duties of their position.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery.

In chapter 6 of the book titled with his name, Isaiah tells us that he found that out.

God is like shining light... And when He comes in, His shining spontaneously exposes the true condition of what it is shining on.

Originally Posted by Ohio

He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses.

He certainly could... But then scripture tells us that God can take even that which was meant for evil and bring about good.

Try not to be boastful in your fallen humanity my brother.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard.

Wonderful.

But I didn't say or suggest anyone ignore anything... Did I.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others.

Scripture tells us that Satan is a cunning, crafty enemy.

One whom only the Lord is able to be victorious over.

Which is why we should always be found in the Lord at all times.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

Which I certainly subscribe to... And have said this on these threads.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

The Lord gives each of us a measure of grace according to His need.

Don't be downcast by what has past... Be uplifted by what must come.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much."

My brother... You are in Christ... His victory is your victory... You are only a failure when you fail to see and enter into this reality... And yet... Even then... It is the life that is in you... His life... That ensures your victory.

And that life cannot be defeated.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Yes...

Look at Joseph... His beginning was awful... But his end was wonderful.

It's not how we begin our race my brother... It's how we finish our race.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM.

Each one is responsible for themselves.

Be responsible for yourself before the Lord.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

I try my brother... And by God's mercy, I have brothers I can fellowship with about all matters as the Lord leads.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

Amen... Now what is important is how you apply this reality... Will you do so in and for the Lord?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures?

I try to listen to all that a person is telling me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post.

Witness Lee has been dead for over 20 years. He can speak nothing. Dead people cannot speak.

He is no threat to me.

And as long as I continously seek the Lord, and hold to what scripture tells me, and follow the leading of the Spirit, I'll be walking in the light of God and have fellowship with Him and other believers.

When it comes to his ministry... I am fine with what brother Lee has presented.

As a human... I didn't know him, so I have nothing to say about the brother.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Originally Posted by Ohio

3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

For sure... So did Jesus.

But we all have natural ambition my brother... Towards one thing or another, and to one degree or another.

And so, yes... Always keep watch.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful?

Absolutely... But do so in life... By abiding in and speaking out of your regenerated spirit.

Not in death, by speaking in and out of the offended feelings of your fallen natural man.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

My brother... Don't think to know what I know.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Steel

"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches. Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.
The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

I was clear on that.

But my response was focused on "...being shunned and expelled..." from what?

A particular meeting of believers in the local church (local church being all believers in an area)?

Whose problem would that be if before the Lord those who were "...being shunned and expelled..." were actually standing in the Lord... And those doing the shunning and expelling were not doing so in the Lord?

Not mine if it were related to me.

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

People have problems with being shunned and expelled because they are holding to their vanity and not Christ.

Matthew 5:10... "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens."

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Originally Posted by Terry

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches.

Well... Welcome to the way of the fallen man that corrupts us all... Us all being all of us born again believers in Christ.

Originally Posted by Terry

Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.

Oh boohoo.

Suck it up, take the way of the cross... Be brought into resurrection life... And rejoice all the way through the next door that the Lord opens for you.

Originally Posted by Terry

The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Shoot...

If I could I'd just rent the building next door to the building I was just escorted from and carry on with the Lord without loosing a step... Make it easy for anyone else who suffers the same... Same ministry speaking... Same recovered way... With the hope that the Lord would in His mercy and grace save myself and any I meet with from becoming religious also.