My situation with the Local Church

[InChristAlone]

OGOP, thank you for your testimony.

I don't feel I can tell you anything more thoughtful than the brothers who left their comments in this thread. Let me just share my personal experience.

I met my wife many years ago when both of us were students. Later, I found out that she was a member of the LRC. But that wasn't a big problem for me since I was a nominal Christian. To me, the LRC was another Christian church. So, after a few years of dating, we got married. I wasn't a member of the LRC but everyone welcomed me with open arms. Partly, because they were really nice and sincere people. Partly, because (as I believe it now) they saw me as a potential brother. Though, I still believe in their natural sincerity and friendliness more than in their failed expectations. (I can't complain. Then and now, my ex-brothers and sisters have always treated me well).

After our marriage, my parents-in-law tried to convert me into their faith. I refused the baptism a few times (since I had been baptized before and the Creed says: "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins"), so my new Dad and Mom let me alone. My wife was more gentle in her approach. She knew it was useless to pressure me. So, she never forced me to do anything. It was always my or "our" common will.

Thus, I started to attend meetings, conferences and trainings in my locality. And of course, every Sunday I followed my wife when she was going for the Lord’s Table meeting. I was not very active but I read the Morning Revival, prayed, "prophesied" and even broke the bread since we didn't have many brothers in our hall.

With time, all those meetings became a routine for me. Not that I hated or enjoyed them much. But they were the only form or expression of my Christian spiritual life. Now, I realize that it was not a true life in Christ but its imitation. However, years ago, I couldn't tell the difference. I was happily married and the center of my life was not God but my beloved wife.

I read some critical articles (in my native language) about the LRC but they didn't bother me. When you are dreaming, you are not realizing that it is the illusory reality of a dream. It is the same with life in the LRC. You can read all those alerts, warnings and negative reviews, but you brush them off because you accept your dream for reality, finding out an explanation to the weird things.

After a few years of marriage, I started to feel that our life in the LRC didn't bear any fruit. Well, I could blame myself for my lukewarm heart but when I looked around, I saw that my wife and I were not the only ones without any progress. It wasn't just our problem. It was a common issue in the LRC even for her zealots. Numerous meetings, trainings and conferences didn't draw people nearer to the Lord. The glorious church life didn't work. It didn't have power to transform people's hearts. No matter how hard they tried, all their efforts were in wain. And I was one of them. I was full of passions which I didn't even notice. I was nothing but a barren fig tree. (Not that I am much better now. But at least I opened my eyes a little bit and can see clearer who I am (just a great sinner) and why I need our Lord and Savior).

So, I became more cautious towards the LRC. I started to listen to the elders critically. I found this forum. It waked me up and helped me a lot to realize the nature of the LRC. And then I decided to help my wife open her eyes.

I started to study more about the Christian faith, church history, Witness Lee, the differences between the LRC and other denominations, etc. Long story short, all my attempts to talk to my wife failed. I was talking to a wall. She had never been interested to know anything new. She had her answers before I could start asking questions. Most of our conversations ended up with quarrels, anger and insults. Even when I controlled my hot temper, my wife rejected any arguments. She could hear but never listened.

Thank God, we still kept the marriage. I believe my wife to be the best woman I ever met. In spite of anything, I am happily married because our marriage is based on love, trust, and mutual respect. But there is one important thing that my wife and I are lack of. It is spiritual union.

For my wife, WL is like a prophet and a new apostle, the LRC is the only genuine Christian Church and her teachings are the recovered Christian faith. For me, WL is a false teacher, the LRC is the Witness Lee Bible study group, full of very nice people, but whose "recovery" is nothing but a dangerous imitation of the Lord’s gospel. "Dangerous" because it doesn't lead its followers anywhere. They delude themselves, thinking that they are working for Christ, building up His Church. While in reality, they are just servants of a man-made business organization.

So, it is useless to discuss the topic with my wife. I tried to do it in different ways but always failed. In most of other things, she does listen to me but not when we try to discuss her or my faith. I brought her to an Orthodox church. I introduced her to some priests and nuns. She has a very good, friendly relationship with them. Well, that was a big step for her because originally she was set against my attempts to go back to my church. At least now she doesn't mind (at least outwardly) when on Sundays we attend different churches.

My wife is still an active member of the LRC. Only God's grace can help her to see the truth. I can only pray. Witness Lee has always been a God's oracle for her. Other Christians, especially us Eastern Orthodox, are some kind of a weird ancient brontosauros who didn't catch up with the oracle.

Once again, my wife and I have physical and mental union. But we lack of spiritual union. (Though I am sure God blessed me with my wife for a reason). Our home and we ourselves are not a small church, united by the Holy Spirit. I am not sure if I am able to explain what it means. I will just say that spiritually, we live on different planets. It doesn't mean that my planet is better or I am closer to God. (In many ways, my wife is a better person and a much better Christian than me). We are just separated by the distance. I feel the centers of our lives are in different galaxies.

I have been married for 10 years. We do love each other. And I don't have any intentions to divorce my wife. But if I had a choice to go back and choose not to marry my wife, I would not have married her. The lack of spiritual union doesn't make my marriage complete. It is not the whole thing. It is not something that is capable to grow. It is alive, not dead. But it is limited and it doesn't bear spiritual fruits.

I know neither you nor your girlfriend. Besides, we have different backgrounds, so I doubt if you will have a similar experience. I just wanted to share what makes my marriage uncompleted. You don't need to learn from my poor experience. But I would ask you to listen to the brothers who gave you a good piece of advice in this thread. In short: Pray. Be honest with your girlfriend. Don't depend on your emotions. Don't depend on a man/woman. Depend on God. Leave everything to the Lord. Don't look for your way. Ask for His way for you.

There is one more advice that helped me and my wife a lot lately. I got it from my priest. If you face a dilemma and can't find a solution, read a few chapters of the Gospels in a row (with attention, reverence, humility and gratitude) before you sleep. Then pray (again - with attention, reverence, humility, repentance, and gratitude) and ask the Lord for His guidance and help. My wife and I did it once (we read the Bible together) and received the answer next morning. Criteria of the right decision were clear thoughts, assurance/confidence in the right decision, and peace of mind.

May the Lord bless and help you and your girlfriend.

Please excuse my poor English and forgive me if I offended someone's feelings.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

For me, WL is a false teacher, the LRC is the Witness Lee Bible study group, full of very nice people, but whose "recovery" is nothing but a dangerous imitation of the Lord’s gospel. "Dangerous" because it doesn't lead its followers anywhere. They delude themselves, thinking that they are working for Christ, building up His Church. While in reality, they are just servants of a man-made business organization.

Wow, I love that -- Witness Lee Bible Study Group. How about Witness Lee Bible Study for short? WL BS?

As for "in reality they are just servants of a man-made business organization", that hurts. I would hate to think that this is how the Lord would view my service. Instead I will stick with the verse "serve as unto the Lord". If your service was, as Ed Marks said, to please Witness Lee, then yes, it will be weighed as servants of a man-made business organization. But if your service was as unto the Lord then you would not have had respect towards man (trust me everyone in the WL BS will be tested on this at some point). Then it would not be right for the Lord to forget that.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OGOP

My girlfriend is the exception (dating outside the LC)

Originally Posted by Drake

No, she is not and you could not possibly know differently given your limited experience. And "dating" probably happens more outside than it does inside since dating is not encouraged,

And Drake could not possibly know OGOP's girlfriend is not the exception in their particular LC...unless he is claiming to be like Witness Lee, who claimed in his speaking to be virtually omniscient and omnipresent, everywhere in every place since the beginning of the church. To say that "dating is not encouraged" is a whopper of an understatement. In general, entering into any serious relationship outside the Local Church denomination is considered as "unequally yoked" (as if a Christian brother or sister is some sort of unbeliever) and this should not be a hard concept to understand considering the horrific attitude towards Christians outside of the movement.

Originally Posted by Drake

..and yet you talk about laying out plans and schemes. There is love, then there is love. There is love that makes a man desperate, then there is love that puts her first, shares the heart, that can wait for things to be right, that relies on the Lord and His timing.

Please excuse our friend Drake, he apparently lives within the hermetically sealed confines of the Local Church of Witness Lee, where people are not free to make their own plans, especially young people, who are expected to follow the person and work of Lee in every aspect of their lives, even in such intimately personal matters as choosing a spouse. This is especially frustrating and confusing for American young people, who are being adversely affected by the Chinese/Asian culture of meddling and matchmaking. As has been noted on this forum, this culture of meddling and matchmaking has made for quite a number of unhappy and even miserable marriages. Due to the culture of secrecy in the sect, we will probably never know just how many marriages fell apart, but it seems there were far too many for a place that claims to be "THE Lord's Recovery".

I certainly can't blame OGOP for being at least a little desperate. The woman he loves and wants to be with for the rest of his life is being influenced not by "the Lord and His timing", but by the teachings, practices and culture of some obscure religious movement whose teachings, practices and culture stand at odds with not only traditional Christian teachings and practices, but with the common and accepted cultural norms of modern Christian people in this area of the world.
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[Intothewind]

As someone who grew up in the LC and left, I understand your situation.

I actually pendulumed all the way out of Christianity, but looking back what I can tell you is people are not very rational creatures.


Even growing up in the church, I saw some read flags. The buying up and taking down of a dissenter(Moran)s website when he passed was excitedly announced in a mtg in 6th grade. The lawsuits, apologetics journal, culture.

I eventually left. I left partly out of disgust that some elders saw a vulnerable time in my life as a time to pressure me to attend the training. Id like to say I thought my way out..but mainly I escaped because the fear of the unknown because less than the pain of staying.

I dunno what universe Drake is reporting from. Even couples in the LC follow strict unspoken code that has been laid out.

Youre asking this girl to literally throw out everything and everyone she has ever known. Its great you understand that. That is not something you can convince her to do in a logical manner.

I would be supportive, and know your boundaries, and make sure you have a network outside the LC. One fear of people raised in it is that genuine love and friendship wont be found outside. This is sadly often taught.

[Drake]

Intothewind) "i dunno what universe Drake is reporting from. Even couples in the LC follow strict unspoken code that has been laid out."

The universe part of your statement I get, but what is the "strict unspoken code" and how is it different from what i said?

Drake

[Drake]

OGOP) "The problem is when you're born and raised in a life, and know absolutely nothing else, you're not going to take well to somebody telling you its time to leave it all behind. All your friends, your entire social life, some of your beliefs, etc."

Brother, you really want this girl to leave her friends, companions, social life, and beliefs all behind? And knowing that she would not take well to you for saying its time to leave it all behind you think to conceal your true feelings from her?

If this is love, its not the marrying kind.

I think you should meditate on posts #7, #9, #10, and #11 on the first day of this hopeful new year and every day therafter until they sink in. Let their message penetrate your heart deeply, else I think both you and she are heading for a world of hurt.

Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And Drake could not possibly know OGOP's girlfriend is not the exception in their particular LC...unless he is claiming to be like Witness Lee, who claimed in his speaking to be virtually omniscient and omnipresent, everywhere in every place since the beginning of the church. To say that "dating is not encouraged" is a whopper of an understatement. In general, entering into any serious relationship outside the Local Church denomination is considered as "unequally yoked" (as if a Christian brother or sister is some sort of unbeliever) and this should not be a hard concept to understand considering the horrific attitude towards Christians outside of the movement.

If true, the "unequally yoked" view is no worse than the belief held by many baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics and Lutherans etc. That is, to marry someone of another denomination may bring difficulties and one of the two will have to compromise their denominational beliefs to join the other's denomination, or find a third denomination.

Anyway what you say of the local churches regarding being unequally yoked I have not found to be the case in my experience. A number of people in the movement have taken wives from non-LC churches, and Drake can probably confirm this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If true, the "unequally yoked" view is no worse than the belief held by many baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics and Lutherans etc. That is, to marry someone of another denomination may bring difficulties and one of the two will have to compromise their denominational beliefs to join the other's denomination, or find a third denomination.

Anyway what you say of the local churches regarding being unequally yoked I have not found to be the case in my experience. A number of people in the movement have taken wives from non-LC churches, and Drake can probably confirm this.

First you tell OGOP that, if he truly loved the girl, he should cut his ties with her because the demands upon her would be too great.

Then you say it happens all the time, and being unequally yoked is not a problem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First you tell OGOP that, if he truly loved the girl, he should cut his ties with her because the demands upon her would be too great.

Then you say it happens all the time, and being unequally yoked is not a problem.

It must be nice for these couples where everyone looks on you as "being unequally yoked" as though an ox and a donkey were married.

"It happens all the time" -- is that like putting a positive spin on babies born out of wedlock, children of the saints leaving, and people marrying outside of the confines of the church?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It must be nice for these couples where everyone looks on you as "being unequally yoked" as though an ox and a donkey were married.

"It happens all the time" -- is that like putting a positive spin on babies born out of wedlock, children of the saints leaving, and people marrying outside of the confines of the church?

It is one of the Recovery's greatest evils to place their system above marriages, "That God has joined together." Even the so-called "degraded" denominations do not do this.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First you tell OGOP that, if he truly loved the girl, he should cut his ties with her because the demands upon her would be too great.

Then you say it happens all the time, and being unequally yoked is not a problem.

Drake said that. Check your facts first before posting.

UntoHim has made some factually incorrect statements about the local churches regarding the view of marriage with non-LC members as being unequally yoked.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Drake said that. Check your facts first before posting.

UntoHim has made some factually incorrect statements about the local churches regarding the view of marriage with non-LC members as being unequally yoked.

Have you suddenly become a stickler for facts? Perhaps a New Years resolution?