The local church, the Work and the New Testament Ministry

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

for the sake of expressing a vindictive opinion in a pubic forum you would potentially throw them under the bus without a care. Be more selective in your battles Aron so you don’t cause harm to the innocent.

I requested this of you in the past and doing so here again.

Drake

Okay Drake. No smoking gun, here. Just a lot of coincidences.

But still the point remains: Bat Boy Theology leads, predictably, to results we see both near and far, and with many names.

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

Those are some names, and terms, we can safely associate with LSM.

[Drake]

-1

“Those are some names, and terms, we can safely associate with LSM.“

Yep. Fair game.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I was implying that the PEOPLE leading Christians on Campus are all members in the LC. ... yes, the work is different but it's still the same group of people and they are literally EMPLOYED by the LC..

It's just a coincidence, is all. No association between Christians on Campus and the LSM or the LC.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Did you know it's a common cult practice to have recruiting arms that have different names than the groups they're trying to recruit for?

Do you think it's OK for the local church to fall in line with such a misleading practice that's used in Scientology and other cults?

I personally don't. Just be honest about who your group is.

Drake says this is unfair - guilt by association. Like saying, "Hitler ate toast. You eat toast. Therefore you are a mass murderer."

Even if LC misleads, controls, manipulates, shames & isolates, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with similar behaviours of known cults. Don't smear their good name(s).

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

It's just a coincidence, is all. No association between Christians on Campus and the LSM or the LC.



Drake says this is unfair - guilt by association. Like saying, "Hitler ate toast. You eat toast. Therefore you are a mass murderer."

Even if LC misleads, controls, manipulates, shames & isolates, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with similar behaviours of known cults. Don't smear their good name(s).

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

My goodness Aron. I’m not sure why you just don’t lay your case out for why each of these are so wrong in your view. I already said these were fair game so have at it. Tear 5hose Rainbow Booklets apart! You show’em!

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”Again, you want to agree to those guidelines.... then let's discuss it.

I really want someone in the LC to answer theses questions for me.

If not you, then someone else.”

Hi kumbaya,

If you want answers from local church members and since you are acquainted with members of a local church where you live and they with you why don’t you ask them your questions in private setting ? Wouldn’t that yield a better result? Alternatively if you insist on a public setting you could invite some of them to this forum and have an open discussion here. I sure everyone would welcome the fresh perspectives.

Drake

Yes! Better yet... Drake can invite members from his “locality”.

That should be easy enough, right “Drake”

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks Boxjobox,

First, the BEMA is real. I cannot speak for the one that mentioned it to you first, but if you read my comment on it, I applied to myself, Witness Lee, and Watchman Nee as well. Every christian will be judged at the Bema for how they build on the foundation. Ultimately, He is the righteous Judge and I am certain we both agree on that. Though it may not have been presented to you in a considerate way it is nevertheless an important event that we should have in view while in this life.

Yet, I still do not understand what is your view on the New Testament work of ministry.... the scriptural view of course. Because, the situation can be cast in any number of ways, but the glaring vacancy in your description is that there appears to be no work of ministry to care for and shepherd the local churches. You are someone that at an earlier time was impressed with the teaching about the local churches and enjoyed the church life for some time. Along comes LSM and asserts itself as "the husband of every LC" in your view..... but to that I say, not so at all. I never felt LSM was a husband in the half dozen churches I was in for forty years. Not one iota. Not even a little bit. But then, I understood the relationship to be the legitimate work of ministry according to the scriptures for the building up of the local churches, not a husband because we have only one Husband. So we are servants with a commission obligated to carry out our function before the Lord. The work of ministry is not the duty of a husband, rather it is a service to local churches to build the Body of Christ. If you do not have the scriptural definition of the work of ministry in your understanding then you will misinterpret the relationship between the work of ministry and the local churches.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if the history tab on the SD local church website mentions Brother Lee. If the connection is important it is in the Link tab and there you will find it. I would prefer the history not mention the work through which it came about because each local church was raised up by the Lord no matter which servant was the instrument. Yet, no one is distancing themselves from LSM.... even the Church in Cleveland links themselves to LSM!

thanks for the dialogue
Drake

Drake,
In the NT, ministry, ministers, my ministry, the ministry, your ministry, etc, is basically working with the Lord for the saints and the church, and the gospel. When I first came meet with the local church, the saints, including the elders, worked for the benefit of the saints, for the church. It was a good time of mutual fellowship. Slowly, WL material became the primary focus, elders began going to " elder's meetings" things began to change from local to all things WL. The taste of the meetings, the suspicions that some were not fully into WL, clearing out of things not LSM began to occur at an ever rapid rate. It was a time of unsettling- if this was supposed to be the building up of gold, silver, precious stones, it felt more like splintering wood, smelly hay and I like to hike but hate hiking on trails where the mules and horses have walked. Saints began to get discouraged, unsettled, questioning motives- you were either in or out. Finally, the one elder who was probably the best example of a shepherding elder left, the edict of fully following WL/LSM came and it was obvious- despite what you may think or say, that the church took on a new husband- polygamy really. Following Christ, following WL same thing. In fact, the reigns were really turned over to WL. I left at this time in that I could no longer stomach the situation. As one brother said to me- we didn't leave the church, the church left us. Do you really want to ask me about ministry? One knows when there is help, and encouragement, and fellowship and love, and grace and brotherhood and when a mom and pop company gets bought out by a corporation. Drake, LSM is a business! I really don't think you can justify a business running the local church.

I have to again echo the wise observation of W Née: When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.

WL was most instrumental in establishing the LCs in The US, and then corrupted them by overpowering them with his business. Two husbands! Christ is just a product to be merchandised. The local churches need to be recovered by, repenting, dumping LSM and getting back to the ministry of the saints in the local church. Popery is an ugly thing. The real problem with WL's ministry is that it brought everyone back to the 4th century and then rebuilt according to the Roman Catholic model.

[Boxjobox]

By the way, and maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I sort of remember W Née and his books not being so popular because LSM did not have the copyrights to a lot of them. Now that WL is gone and the LSM does have the copyrights they are being merchandised- am I right? Business is business, and you don't want competition. Squash or buy out the competition, or sue them and profits are to be made.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

My goodness Aron. I’m not sure why you just don’t lay your case out for why each of these are so wrong in your view. I already said these were fair game so have at it.

Drake

Nothing wrong, Drake. Just an awful lot of names for a church that says there should be no name but Jesus.

Oh, but that's not the church, right? That's just the ministry, sprouting names left and right. And the church workers are full-time ministry employees. But pay no mind.

"Rhema Literature Distributors is a group of believers throughout the earth engaged in a single mission - to actively distribute the highest quality Christian literature. In over 100 countries and more than 25 languages, we distribute according to a simple principle - all our literature is given away completely free.

We are distributing the books that have helped us the most to understand the Bible and to know and experience Christ in our daily life. In particular, we work closely with Living Stream Ministry to distribute a number of key titles by their authors.

We are a nonprofit charity whose distribution is made possible by gifts from believers and churches from all over the world. They have entrusted us with the means to be a free and broad channel of supply to all those seeking to know God in a deep and satisfying way."

Witness Lee, incorporated. And processed, transformed and intensified. . . the more they try to hide the associations, the more cultic they look. "Oh, we're just Christians who enjoy Christ in oneness with all believers here in Smithville." And the more cultic they look, the more shell games they have to play with names, papering over corrupt relations.

[Drake]

-1

Okay, Aron. For arguments sake, let’s eliminate every one of those ministry initiatives. Poof, they’re gone! You got your greatest wish.

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

That is precisely what we are discussing.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

This is the main difficulty in a discussion concerning WL/LSM. WL is not the apostle Paul, yet verses are used to describe WL's work in those terms, so that there is this kind of two step of he is/he isn't an apostle, yet the impression left is that WL was in the same as Paul, we just can't use those words. This is the real reason, I think, WL is not mentioned on the c in SD web site history. You would think there would be an historical explanation for the sake of honesty. The selling point is basically we are Christians who meet together sing, pray, fellowship, preach the gospel- who could not want that? But they leave out the second husband who rules the marriage and dominates all aspects of "church".

In typical WL fashion, a small part of a verse, or a collection of small parts "indicate" that thus and thus is so, and then that "indicate" becomes Bible truth. I would like to add to that with a small snippet from Paul “Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.” **II Corinthians‬ *1:24‬ *NKJV‬‬

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is the main difficulty in a discussion concerning WL/LSM. WL is not the apostle Paul, yet verses are used to describe WL's work in those terms, so that there is this kind of two step of he is/he isn't an apostle, yet the impression left is that WL was in the same as Paul, we just can't use those words. ‬‬

That's why we must compare WL/LSM with Paul in II Corinthians.

For starters:

• 1.12 How apostles conduct themselves
• 2.17 Not peddling the word of God for profit
• 3.9 Not the ministry of condemnation on the whole body of Christ
• 4.2 Renouncing the hidden things of shame
• 4.2 Not walking in craftiness
• 4.2 Not adulterating the word of God
• 4.2 Commending themselves to every man's conscience

[Drake]

-1

Ohio,

Do you agree that there is a work of ministry for the local churches? Still, in our day? Not many here do, or if they do they have not bothered to define it based on scripture.

If you don't then no measure of executing that ministry matters.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Do you agree that there is a work of ministry for the local churches? Still, in our day? Not many here do, or if they do they have not bothered to define it based on scripture.

If you don't then no measure of executing that ministry matters.

Drake

Of course. The entire N.T. defines the work of ministry. Every book.

Your problem is two-fold. LSM fails as a ministry, and your LC's are not real local churches.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course. The entire N.T. defines the work of ministry. Every book.

Your problem is two-fold. LSM fails as a ministry, and your LC's are not real local churches.

Good. Now we are getting somewhere.

Do real local churches exist and if so, where?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good. Now we are getting somewhere.

Do real local churches exist and if so, where?

Drake

The church in Columbus is a real local church.

Even though LSM used a handful of malcontents to sue them and steal their meeting hall, they are still a real local church.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The church in Columbus is a real local church.

Even though LSM used a handful of malcontents to sue them and steal their meeting hall, they are still a real local church.

Ok. And the ministry they are affiliated with?

Is the Church in Cleveland also a real local church in your opinion?

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay, Aron. For arguments sake, let’s eliminate every one of those ministry initiatives. Poof, they’re gone!

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Poof they're gone hallelujah.

What does a biblical ministry in a local church look like? Good question.

Answer: it looks an awful lot like Jesus and the discipled ones in the 4 gospels. But careful! The "Jesus figure" in this setting is not Witness Lee, or some other guru. The only one with this role is Jesus himself.

Notice that Lee spent 60-70% of his efforts in the epistles, a conveniently-enough abstract setting for his jumping off into the imaginarium, into Bat Boy Theology, into la-la land. In this setting, Christ was whatever the ministry chose at that moment to satisfy the apparent need. "Today's Moses" - Today's Moses is Jesus. Read Peter in Acts 3:22,23 and Stephen in Acts 7:37. A prophet God has raised up, like Moses. You must hear him. Now, that corresponds to the Jesus of the gospels!

Another 20% or 30% is in the OT, mining for disjointed aphorisms and props for the imaginarium. For example, "re-plastered houses" means congregations that heard about Lee's machinations and his profligate sons, and needed leadership purges. All quite biblical, and all quite crazy. Or, "drunken Noah" - biblical, but Bat Boy-level whacko.

The gospels and the actual person of Jesus got maybe 10%. Where he could be fit in. Which wasn't often. I'll never forget the day the FTTA trainer told us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, who cannot repay you in this age. I was aghast, I was stunned. This sounded nothing like the Jesus of the gospels. It took me a couple more years to get the courage, but one day I walked out, with no housing, job, network. All gone, all swallowed by the ministry (i.e., LSM). But I had a dream & refused to give it up. I went into a shelter, got a temp job and kept going. And Jesus has met me, again and again, on the journey.

[Drake]

-1

Aron, you got as far as saying the work of NT ministry looks

.... “a lot like Jesus and and the discipled ones in the four gospels”...

... then you went back on script.

Using the Bible, please describe the work of ministry to the local churches. We’ve already wisked away your LSM list so no need to visit the nonexistent. Just the Bible at this point.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Drake, when are you going to demonstrate from the Bible that the work of ministry is LSM?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, when are you going to demonstrate from the Bible that the work of ministry is LSM?

that's been done...... I explained in detail what the biblical definition of the NT work of ministry is... I have explained how the service of LSM fits that definition in service and their historical role for those local churches.

However, we moved on.....now we are at the point of having eliminated everything that LSM contributes to the local churches, to aron's great delight, so the question now on the table is what is the work of ministry for those local churches? ... using the Bible of course.

Thanks
Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

By the way, and maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I sort of remember W Née and his books not being so popular because LSM did not have the copyrights to a lot of them.

That's been my experience. Non-LSM publishers of WN was scrutinized whereas LSM published books of WN was good as notarized.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Drake

I have explained how the service of LSM fits that definition in service and their historical role for those local churches.

I believe many can testify how the role of service has changed over the decades in the local churches. With it's beginnings in the mid-70's LSM served the churches. At some point there was a role reversal where the local churches serves the ministry (aka Living Stream Ministry). As such if you were not a local church receiving LSM publications, that local church or churches were no longer received as a local church. What does that tell you?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. And the ministry they are affiliated with?

Is the Church in Cleveland also a real local church in your opinion?

Drake

Sure, of course, and many others in Ohio. All of which have been under seige by LSM.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

that's been done...... I explained in detail what the biblical definition of the NT work of ministry is... I have explained how the service of LSM fits that definition in service and their historical role for those local churches.

However, we moved on.....now we are at the point of having eliminated everything that LSM contributes to the local churches, to aron's great delight, so the question now on the table is what is the work of ministry for those local churches? ... using the Bible of course.

Thanks
Drake

Drake- you have definitions, I'll give you that. If I had the time, I would dig through and show the contradictions-Ohio did an excellent job a few posts back. The issue is not so much your or my " biblical definitions" as it was the effect of the LSM take over, or to give the light version, the LSM intrusion into the goings on in all the LCs. The effect was not a ministry of building unless one wanted to say- in the case of the c in SD, say the whole practice of the saints and elders was rotten and the whole thing needed to be torn down to the ground and rebuilt according to WL standards. But, actually the c in SD was doing just fine and the intrusion of LSM was destructive. Many dear, good saints left because of it- many! There is no comparison of WL's work with Paul's where you could arrive a working definition from scripture- in fact, I would say that WLs work is what Paul was warning the elders to watch out for. Paul went to churches and knew people and found out what was going on and was like a caring mother. WLs methodology was a one size, my way or the highway, bulldozer during the 80's. As far as I can tell, his only interest was to be sure his products were moving- his business!

Drake, don't waste your time trying with the ministry thing- it is not what LSM is- LSM is a business. The sooner you accept that, the less time you'll waste trying to convince people who went through the takeover that LSM is a ministry to the churches. WL took what W Née saw about the local churches and turned it into a merchandise business, its nice he wanted to leave his family an inheritance, but by establishing a business, the symplicity of what the LCs could have been today with the saints, the word, the gospel, the Holy Spiri, the fellowship the prayer, the love the caring, the ministry of the saints, would be enormous! Instead, the LCs now all have become a Tupperware organization for the LSM! Think and consider how the Church in Antioch was- that's how a LC should be. If the LCs could have developed like that, the Lord would have had his way beyond imagination.

Drake- urging you, brother, don't settle for the facade that is going on now. The LCs need to repent and open that door to the one who is outside knocking!

Off for cataract surgery tomorrow, hope to see clearer!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure, of course, and many others in Ohio. All of which have been under seige by LSM.

Ok. What work of ministry is the Church in Cleveland affiliated with?

Drake

[Drake]

Boxjobox>”Off for cataract surgery tomorrow, hope to see clearer!”

Those operations are simplier now than they used to be so I’m sure you will be fine.

Think about this until you return. No rush to respond, I’ll be here the Lord willing.

You are focused on what went wrong, I am focused on the biblical pattern. Both are important. One is a question of the way, the other is a question of the execution. My observation is that you are dismissing the scriptural way because the execution in your experience was wrong. I am not dismissing or neglecting your experience but by taking the Bible as our anchor first and foremost we will at least be on the right path. Yet, by dismissing the way, the NT definition, the execution is also wrong. You may have a successful execution but if the way is wrong it is meaningless for fulfilling God’s purpose. However, if the way is right, if our path is right, if it is the path according to the NT definition then the execution can be assessed and judged and dealt with in the proper way before God and man. It’s merits will be assessed for reward or loss.

Boxjobox, I may not be clear in my writing but I am not inconsistent. I may not articulate what I want to say very well but there are no contradictions in my definitions of these matters we have been discussing. I believe what I say and say it the best I am able. Any appearance of contradiction is only because you, Ohio, Koinomia, ZNP, Igzy (now, why don’t he write?), Aron, LofT, etc. all agree on one thing (down with all things WL, LSM, Blended Brothers) but do not have the same beliefs about many other things discussed in this forum.

Last point. Though your negative experience and opinion of Brother Lee, Living Stream Ministry, etc. is not disputed by me (I was not in San Diego so I cannot provide a San Diego point of view), and is very much aligned with the majority opinion in this forum, yet everything you say about them is not my experience at all and is not the experience of tens or hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters in the local churches under the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. You are convinced that LSM is simply a business for profit or personal gain. First, it is a nonprofit org with clear government rules for nonprofit. Second, no one on that employee list is getting rich. Kerry is apparently making the same as a McDonalds or Walmart worker. I hope he has another job. Brother Lees apartment was modest.... Look the bottom line is this, I think you are missing something ..... what you call a business for profit I believe was in the character “these hands” in the example set in Acts 20:34.

Take care. Have a safe operation.

Drake

[aron]

The minister of the true tabernacles is Jesus (Heb 8:2), not some "drunken Noah" whose sins and defects must be covered at every turn, at the cost of truth and conscience.

The leader and guide of the congregation, the "my ekklesia" of Matt 16 - and there is none other - is Jesus himself, not some self-appointed guru. Those who elevate themselves will be brought down. The contrast could hardly be more striking.

At the beginning of Acts, Peter is not working, but God is working thru Peter. Same with the rest of them - you get a true sense of mutuality and interdependence. The only presence who pervades and dominates is that of Jesus. He is indeed "Lord of all". But those who seek the assembly or ekklesia as a vehicle for temporal dominion show their own lack of self-control. Peter's epistle confirms this.

And nothing against ministries or names per se - just noting the hypocrisy of having names while incessantly faulting others for doing the same. The "no-name" church being run by full-time employees of the named ministry. A blatant shell game, obvious to all but the most stubbornly blind. Likewise, nothing against WL the person, just saying that he got caught by a bad idea. He was as much a creature and captive of the man-exalting system, with its untouchable drunken Noah and all the rest as he was the creator and beneficiary.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good. Now we are getting somewhere.

Do real local churches exist and if so, where?

Drake

Gospel Community Church is a real local church.

The church of Christ is a real local church.

But you don't really care about them because they are not in your directory.

But why won't you compare LSM with II Corinthians? Too embarrassing?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Aron, you got as far as saying the work of NT ministry looks

.... “a lot like Jesus and and the discipled ones in the four gospels”...

... then you went back on script.

Using the Bible, please describe the work of ministry to the local churches. We’ve already wisked away your LSM list so no need to visit the nonexistent. Just the Bible at this point.

Drake

Back on script? Little offensive, eh? Dismissing personal testimony?

Drake, It's your "script" which damages the children of God. Put one of His children on the streets to escape the clutches of Lee's training centers. After forty years, you have become kind of heartless, don't you think?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

However, we moved on.....now we are at the point of having eliminated everything that LSM contributes to the local churches, to aron's great delight, so the question now on the table is what is the work of ministry for those local churches? ... using the Bible of course.

Thanks
Drake

Not exactly.

The question now on the table is how does Lee/LSM compare with Paul in Ii Corinthians.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. What work of ministry is the Church in Cleveland affiliated with?

Drake

Joyce Meyer?

How would I know?

I left Cleveland forty years ago.

[aron]

To go back to the "proper local church" and "proper NT ministry" idea, I have not read any books on "Jesus as CEO" or "Jesus leadership seminar" ideas. I'm sure there are many, some good, some not so good.

But my thoughts in passing are this: in warfare one wants to be predictable to one's allies, and unpredictable to one's foes. Jesus as commander of the troops, was surrounded by foes. Often those closest to him were not trustworthy.

So when you see him move in the gospels, he does so with fluidity. He assembled the thousands in companies of hundreds and fifties, and set ones over them. Then he broke the bread and had it passed down in strict hierarchy. And it worked just great. Everybody ate. Then he "fired" the company. He broke it up. It became fluid again.

Now, on earth we typically do the opposite. We become rigid, inflexible, and are easy prey for the enemy. The LSM model is quite rigid, and was easily penetrated and overcome by the enemy influences. It became an organization, successful in replicating itself, but unsuccessful in replicating Jesus' work.

Suppose Jesus had did-assembled the throng, post-meal, and one of those whom he'd set over the fifties or hundreds continued to "lord" it over the rest. "Don't you know that I am the one whom Jesus gave the food to, to feed you? You'd better pay attention to me!" That person's 'ministry' just became bankrupt.

In order to cooperate with the Lord, you have to be willing to sit at the end of the "hundred" or be the one passing out the bread and fish. One day you may be in one place, one day in another. If you set up a rigid structure you'll be easily overcome. It may work for you, or seem to - once, twice, but ultimately you have an empty shell, with no reality. And those who insist on holding the shell become the chief obstacle to the Lord's work. Because it is his 'ekklesia', his work.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Gospel Community Church is a real local church.

The church of Christ is a real local church.

But you don't really care about them because they are not in your directory.

But why won't you compare LSM with II Corinthians? Too embarrassing?

Happy to discuss. You start by making your case from II Corinthians and I will enjoin.

thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Happy to discuss. You start by making your case from II Corinthians and I will enjoin.

thanks
Drake

I already started, you got side-tracked.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's why we must compare WL/LSM with Paul in II Corinthians.

For starters:

• 1.12 How apostles conduct themselves
• 2.17 Not peddling the word of God for profit
• 3.9 Not the ministry of condemnation on the whole body of Christ
• 4.2 Renouncing the hidden things of shame
• 4.2 Not walking in craftiness
• 4.2 Not adulterating the word of God
• 4.2 Commending themselves to every man's conscience

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Joyce Meyer?

How would I know?

I left Cleveland forty years ago.

okay..... then it appears from their website that they affiliate with Titus Chu (no surprise there), T. Austin Sparks, and Watchman Nee... and they link to LSM for the latter.

The teachings of Watchman Nee define everything that I have been sharing here... the local churches, the ground of the local churches, the work of ministry, all of it is straight out of those pages of The Normal Christian Church Life, Further Talks on the Church Life, and Church Affairs.

If the Church in Cleveland is, as you say, a true local church, in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee, then so is every other church in that same mold. And they would also disagree with your contention that the "Church of Christ" denomination and the congregationalist Gospel Community Church are true local churches. if they are consistent. Given that perhaps you wish to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb also?

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I already started, you got side-tracked.

ok... it happens.

But I disagree with your negative characterization of those items applied to Brother Lee. You say they do, I say they don't.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

So when you see Jesus move in the gospels, he does so with fluidity. He assembled the thousands in companies of hundreds and fifties, and set ones over them. . . .Then he "fired" the company. He broke it up. It became fluid again..

Contrast this to what we too often see in practise. A certain group that I have familiarity with, which I won't mention by name because in a certain country they may persecute members, had a special chair for its leader, whom I shall call "Brother X". Everybody sat in vinyl chairs but Brother X up front had the stuffed leather chair. I saw people after the meeting, standing by Brother X's empty chair, taking photos of themselves standing by it. One young girl even sat in the chair, to the nervous gaiety of the onlookers. Such boldness!

Now this particular organisational system was set up where Brother X always had to be right. Even when he was wrong, he was right. So if he made a mistake, for example, and put a close family member over the flock, and the abuse inevitably started, and the presence of the Holy Spirit left, too bad. Because we were rigid, and "Brother X is always right." Or if he said something about the Bible that we didn't like, too bad. "Brother X is always right."

It is completely predictable, like a toy in the enemy's hands. Whatever happens, Brother X is always right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

If the Church in Cleveland is, as you say, a true local church, in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee, then so is every other church in that same mold. And they would also disagree with your contention that the "Church of Christ" denomination and the congregationalist Gospel Community Church are true local churches. if they are consistent. Given that perhaps you wish to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb also?

Drake

I never said that a a true local church is "in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee." WN changed his definitions over time like the creeds of the early church. Where convenient, Nee loved strict adherence to scripture, but where not advantageous, he charted his own course.

Neither do either of us know that the Church in Cleveland would object to my "Church of Christ" brothers up the road, who are not a denomination as you say, nor my elderly Gospel Community Church brothers and sisters who are struggling to care for one another in love after one family's house burnt down overnight, and he is now hospitalized.

One thing about you, Drake, you seem to know everything about everyone else, but nothing about LSM. That's called prejudice, a pre-judgment about others whom you don't even know.

Why is it you keep dodging the comparison between Lee and Paul's writing of II Corinthians?

[Drake]

-1

Ohio,

I didn’t say you said that. You said the Church in Cleveland is a true local church. I asked what work of ministry they are affiliated with and you said you did not know. I said from their web the ministries they reference are Titus Chu, T. A. Sparks, and Watchman Nee. The Watchman Nee link physically connects the reader back to the Living Stream Ministry website.Then I said everything I have been discussing here comes from the three books by Watchman Nee concerning the ground of the church and the work of ministry is found on that LSM website. So then, it was I that said if the Church in Cleveland is a true local church so are the others that came from that same ministry, the same mold, that the Church in Cleveland came from. I then asked you if you wanted to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb since they reference the same ministry that produced the local churches you said were false local churches.

That same ministry shed light that the denominations are sin and Congregationalism is unscriptural. Therefore, the Church in Cleveland, by commending the reader to the teachings of Watchman Nee would certainly strongly suggest that the Church of Christ, a denomination, and the community church you mentioned are not a true local church. This does not mean you should turn a blind eye to the suffering of those brothers and sisters. You obviously were touched by their suffering and I am sure you and the christians you meet with will do everything possible to help them.

As far as 2 Corinthians please feel free to take them one by one..... make your case and I will respond in kind. I don’t agree with what you said but I don’t know what your argument is for those because you have not made one. I will respond to your arguments.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Would anyone like to unravel this doublespeak lawyering gibberish for me?

I'm sure we have some bright folks out there.

Let me get this straight. LSM spent months and dozens of booklets convincing their little world that the CinCleve was fit for a Whistler quarantine, and now this same CinCleve website proves that the only true LC's are those with LSM?

Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, etc. It has nothing to do with some website links. If your criteria was correct, then any collection of people on earth with a savvy web designer and a couple of links could constitute a "true local church."

Did Jesus really say "I will build my church with good websites and the correct links."

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

I didn’t say you said that. You said the Church in Cleveland is a true local church...

Drake, do you consider the Church in Cleveland a "true local church"?

[Drake]

Ohio>”Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, et”

Ohio, it is called summarizing for the benefit of the listeners, not lawyering. It is part of a sensible discourse. It also gives you the opportunity to identify where we saw the dialogue differently. Not it’s conclusions but the course.

According to the definition you provided above the local churches you called false are not false at all.

Drake

[Ohio]

If a ministry peddles the word of God are they a "true ministry."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If a ministry peddles the word of God are they a "true ministry."

If they were a true ministry and they did peddle the word of God I do not believe they would be very effective.

Why do you ask?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

If they were a true ministry and they did peddle the word of God I do not believe they would be very effective.

That's right, they are not very effective, at least not among real Christians in the body of Christ.

Originally Posted by Drake

Why do you ask? Drake

This is a discussion forum for the LC movement and the ministry of W. Lee. Of course I should ask.

Lee and his Blendeds claimed for him a status as "today's Paul." Should not we then compare LSM and the ministry of WL to Paul?

Paul said, "For we are not like the many, peddling the word of God." WL and LSM are "like the many, peddling the word of God." This is evidenced by their IRS filing ($100M property, $20M income), their demand that all member LC's buy their books exclusively, their charges for semi-annual ministry meetings, demand that member LC's support DCP, etc.

They even charge widows and children for sitting part-time in video meetings. Talk about defrauding God's people!

[Drake]

-1

Ohio>"Why do you ask? Drake" This is a discussion forum for the LC movement and the ministry of W. Lee. Of course I should ask."

Ohio, of course you should ask. I asked "why" you were asking not how dare you ask. Sorry if I wasn't clear But I think I have your answer here:

Ohio>" "Paul said, "For we are not like the many, peddling the word of God." WL and LSM are "like the many, peddling the word of God." This is evidenced by their IRS filing ($100M property, $20M income), their demand that all member LC's buy their books exclusively, their charges for semi-annual ministry meetings, demand that member LC's support DCP, etc.
"
You are using the wrong teaching to make your point. Peddling in these verses do not mean just selling the word for profit, but it means to dilute the word and then passing it off as the real thing.... like watering down the wine. Unlike Paul and his workers who spoke in sincerity and did not hold back or adulterate the word... they did not peddle watered down wine but provided the real thing.

I have never known Brother Lee nor his co-workers to dilute the word.... I think if they did peddle the word of God they would be financially better off. But they don't and that is the price they pay for speaking the word unadulterated. Also, if the purpose and mission of LSM were to make a boatload of money then they would not offer the books on their website for free. They would not offer the Recovery Version for free to anyone who wants one. They would charge for conferences, they would charge to come speak at a local church... but they do none of that.... they will waive the training fee if the circumstances justify it.... and I have haven't heard a request for DCP funds for decades.... but I never heard a "demand" to support DCP as you say. Never.

You are confounding making money with mission. You have completely missed the motive.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You are using the wrong teaching to make your point. Peddling in these verses do not mean just selling the word for profit, but it means to dilute the word and then passing it off as the real thing.... like watering down the wine. Unlike Paul and his workers who spoke in sincerity and did not hold back or adulterate the word... they did not peddle watered down wine but provided the real thing.

I have never known Brother Lee nor his co-workers to dilute the word.... I think if they did peddle the word of God they would be financially better off. But they don't and that is the price they pay for speaking the word unadulterated. Also, if the purpose and mission of LSM were to make a boatload of money then they would not offer the books on their website for free. They would not offer the Recovery Version for free to anyone who wants one. They would charge for conferences, they would charge to come speak at a local church... but they do none of that.... they will waive the training fee if the circumstances justify it.... and I have haven't heard a request for DCP funds for decades.... but I never heard a "demand" to support DCP as you say. Never.

You are confounding making money with mission. You have completely missed the motive.

Drake

LSM is the ONLY ministry I know which charges money for their words. Other ministries only receive good will offerings.

Have you seen their IRS sheets? They have made a boatload of money. The Gideons also give away free Bibles, and theirs are only God's word.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM is the ONLY ministry I know which charges money for their words. Other ministries only receive good will offerings.

Have you seen their IRS sheets? They have made a boatload of money. The Gideons also give away free Bibles, and theirs are only God's word.

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

And other ministries charge for certain services. Here is an example:

https://store.joycemeyer.org/product...?categoryid=60

But post the link here or the IRS filing and let's all have a look.

Thanks
Drake

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

Balderdash! My local blood bank is non-profit and has lots of salaried employees, a really nice building, tons of buses, and even enough money to give out movie tickets. Of course LSM as a non-profit can and does make money, it just can't pay dividends and issue stock certificates. It can and does pay salaries, rent, and who knows what other kinds of expenses.

[Drake]

-1

"... a non-profit can and does make money..."

This is an oxymoron. Non profit means just that. ... non profit.

But let's have a look at the financial filing and go from there.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

And other ministries charge for certain services. Here is an example:

https://store.joycemeyer.org/product...?categoryid=60

But post the link here or the IRS filing and let's all have a look.

Thanks
Drake

I appreciate that you're trying to defend LSM. You're just being a good loyal brother.

And it is true that LSM is a non-profit, just like all churches.

You're also right that Christians are marketing their wares. It's big business in fact.

Christian's can be so gullible. Just like all the brothers that got taken by Lee's Daystar scheme. If non-profit's don't make money, then why do they market, and beg for donations? Your naivety is cute but laughable.

You point to Joyce Meyer, and her non-profit money making contrivances. You'll get a big kick out of this one :

"'Jesus bought this': Delighted televangelist Kenneth Copeland giggles with glee as he unveils new $3million private jet paid for by donations from his followers"
Scroll down to see his big smile as he points to his beautiful new jet :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...iggles-GV.html

And maybe you don't know -- we can't know everything -- but bro Lee had quite a history of shady dealings with saints' money, and property.

Then, and this is a big one, we mustn't ever -- no no ever -- forget, what Lee said, when asked about the brothers that lost their money on Daystar. It's a classic Lee, revealing his real attitude toward the saints' money. He said : "They lost their virginity." Of course -- my first immediate thought -- you screwed them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

And other ministries charge for certain services.

Sure they can make money, they just don't provide "profits" to owners.

But there are plenty of other ways the "owners" can be enriched.

And I said that only LSM charges for their words.

[Boxjobox]

Cataract surgery went really well- I see things a lot clearer now.

Drake, your obsession with breaking out "the ministry" and the local churchs is rather strange. All believers in the gospel are members of the church, hence The Church. In different areas, where believers gather together you have The Church gathering, like McDonalds corporation has so many franchises. The McDonalds down the street is not the entire corporation, but in all ways is a testimony of all that McDonalds is and does ( feel queasy using McD's as I don't care for their food, but it's a good example). Some McDs may have different specials etc., based on neighborhood demands, but they are all part of the same namesake. Ministry is part of The Church, it is not a separate entity; if its separate from The Church, then it's not under the headship of Christ, and plays by its own rules. If it is using scripture, but, not part of The Church, then it is pedaling the word of God, i.e. using what belongs to all the believers as its own.

Here is an example: John Ingals wrote some hymns. After departing association with LSM, he compiled a hymn book with various old hymns and included his own. LSM would not allow it! Where is LSM's care for the saints of The Church. It is only for their own organization. For an organization that loves using the scriptures to point out organic oneness, and no division, it seems to me that their eyes are not on the Lord's body, the saints, The Church, but on their own organization. LSM has actually created divisions. True Christian ministry should be for The Church. They have robbed the term " the Church in xyzzz" for their own organization.
Paul's and the apostles work was not apart from The Church, it was their function in The Church. It was not a business model!
A little politics here: The Clinton Foundation may be a non- profit organization, but it's set up to serve mainly their family interests. LSM may sound like they are there for The Church, but really it is pedaling the word for their own means. Else why do they care if TItus or someone else is also ministering ( I'm not promoting TC, just using the example). Many in the local gathering should be ministering- once again, take time to consider the Church in Antioch in Acts. The Lord is able to raise up capable teachers- LSM is a closed loop organization that actually frustrates what the Lord could be doing.

[Boxjobox]

I mean Drake, think about it- your model would have all things related to justification by faith as being a possession exclusively of the Lutherians, and any organization that uses justification by faith should fall under the Lutheran banner. Only those who fall under Lutherians are the real justified? No, the truth belongs to the saints, and due to the history of The Church, a lot of strange practices came in. Yes there is a need to recover the right practices; no, right practices are not the domaine of such and such a minister. W Née saw something of the right way to meet, WL spoke that and people began meeting according to that- but the meeting as a church in wxyzzz, does not give WL or his company exclusive rights to that meeting- it does not make LSM lord of that group meeting. This should be so blatantly obvious- somehow LSM has exclusive rights to LCs?

WL wrote and talked about a lot more than just LC. Some do not like the rest of his teachings- all of his material should not be imposed on a group gathering together as The Church in qrst just because he may have introduced the topic. Truth belongs to the Church, it is from God to The Church. Many do not see all of WLs work as being ministry. Obviously, you accept it, but either let The Church be the Church, or call the LCs the church of WL or Leeites but don't mix apples and rhubarbs!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

"... a non-profit can and does make money..."

This is an oxymoron. Non profit means just that. ... non profit.

But let's have a look at the financial filing and go from there.

Drake

How about a personal testimony. At one of the winter trainings I was in the LSM bookstore with several items in line to check out. While waiting a brother comes up to me and asks if I would like a copy of the church directory. I said sure! I had been looking for something like that. He said that it would cost $3 each and I said great I'll just add it to the stuff I'm buying. He said no it had to be cash, so me and my wife dug around in our pockets and paid cash. He was selling copies to several of the saints inside the LSM official bookstore in view of the cashiers. Later I realized this was odd. Not sure why I could not buy it with my other stuff.

[Drake]

Boxjobox >”Cataract surgery went really well- I see things a lot clearer now. ”

Excellent.

Boxjobox, I will respond to your posts this weekend.

Thanks,
Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

"... a non-profit can and does make money..."

This is an oxymoron. Non profit means just that. ... non profit.

But let's have a look at the financial filing and go from there.

Drake

Sorry Drake, check your facts - non-profits can and do make profits, I can assure you.

Your denial of truth and distortion of words moves into the business realm. Where does it end? Praying for you Drake.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Sorry Drake, check your facts - non-profits can and do make profits, I can assure you.

Your denial of truth and distortion of words moves into the business realm. Where does it end? Praying for you Drake.

Nonprofits do not make money LofT. That is why they are non profit. They generate income that is offset by outlay and may have more income than outlay creating a fund balance but that is not profit.

What is it about “nonprofit “ that is unclear?

Check your facts.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nonprofits do not make money LofT. That is why they are non profit. They generate income that is offset by outlay and may have more income than outlay creating a fund balance but that is not profit.

What is it about “nonprofit “ that is unclear?

Check your facts.

Drake

Nonprofits can and do make money. That is why your "work of ministry," LSM, has $100 million in assets.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, et”

Ohio, it is called summarizing for the benefit of the listeners, not lawyering. It is part of a sensible discourse. It also gives you the opportunity to identify where we saw the dialogue differently. Not it’s conclusions but the course.

According to the definition you provided above the local churches you called false are not false at all.

Drake

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?

[awareness]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Sorry Drake, check your facts - non-profits can and do make profits, I can assure you.

Your denial of truth and distortion of words moves into the business realm. Where does it end? Praying for you Drake.

This is all silly talk.

When I was in the LC there was no charge to attend conferences. So I never paid to go to them ... just the cost of getting there.

Charging for conferences came after Daystar. And it wasn't listed as a business transaction. It was called a donation. That way it was listed with the IRS as non-profit income. That was their dishonest way of manipulating their non-profit status. If it was a donation then it wouldn't be required. Donations aren't required. But paying to attend was/is required. They basically are lying about what it is to the IRS. They may be non-profit, but they are still a business, that uses marketing -- in this case to a captive market (forced marketing) -- in their business plan.

Let's face it, if we were all angels then non-profit's would truly be non-profitable. But we're not. So people can use the non-profit status to buy jet airplanes ... to buy extravagant homes on the beach, or to steal labor, and materials, to build a house for the leader, like with Lee & Co.

In short, none of us are angels (neither was Lee), and so in the end non-profit's play funny with the money : LSM is no exception.

But to be fair, for everyone's consideration, just for fun, here is some fact checking, in the form of the 2013 LSM Tax Return:
https://www.scribd.com/document/2717...tream-Ministry

It proves nothing, and hides profit, by playing funny with the money ... as non-angels are so wont to do.

One last anecdote. There is a brother, I won't reveal his name, that I talk to on cell phones from time to time. Like me he got kicked out of the LC ... but for a different reason.

He stated to a brother that he knew that Witness Lee committed crimes. The brother took it to the elders. They demanded that he retract his statement or he had to get out.

But he was the accountant for Daystar. He said, I couldn't deny what I knew to be a fact, so I had to leave.

Witness Lee was no angel. Neither is LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is all silly talk.

When I was in the LC there was no charge to attend conferences. So I never paid to go to them ... just the cost of getting there.

Charging for conferences came after Daystar.

Few LCers realize that it was Philip Lee's idea to charge those who wanted to hear Daddy speak. After the Daystar disaster went belly up, with many of the "pseudo-investors" (the hard-working brothers and sisters who were promised a sure-fire profit that God was certainly going to bless) wanting at least their principal back, the old Stream Publishers was flat broke. Philip then persuaded his Daddy to charge admission to his meetings. Just call it a "donation" to keep the IRS at bay. Lee's ministry was "born again" with a new and better name -- Living Stream Ministry.

It became such a cash cow that Philip later became "WL's most trusted co-worker." Max Rapoport also rose to prominence in Anaheim by traveling around the country persuading the elders and saints who invested in Daystar to consider it a "donation to the Lord's work." No different than buying your favorite minister a private jet for the "Lord's work." With the cash flowing in, they built that new place on Ball Road.

[UntoHim]

What is a true local church? If you asked this question of most evangelical Christians, I believe the vast majority would answer "you mean a Christian church at a certain location?" They might very well ask "what church?"

If the scripture writing apostles, lets say John, Peter and Paul, were suddenly to appear today, how might they answer this question, "what is a true local church?" Now while I wouldn't pretend to know for sure exactly what they would say, I think we might have some clues in the epistles these men wrote to the original local churches. I think they would firstly answer this question with a question of their own: "What is taught in this local church?" "What is the gospel they preach?" "Let us go and see what is taught in this local church, then we will answer your question."

Now some of you may have a different take. You might say that these apostles would ask "who appointed the elders of this local church?....If they were not appointed by any of us we will not accept them as a local church". While I can't prove that they wouldn't make this kind of declaration, I think the biblical evidence points us more towards what I have proposed. I believe if these apostles came to a meeting of the Local Church (LSM) they wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the fact that everything is Lee. Lee taught this, Lee taught that. I don't believe that would disqualify that church in their eyes as a true local church. What would disqualify them in their eyes, I believe, would be the strange and unfamiliar teachings. What would disqualify them would be the preaching of a different gospel.

Would these apostles be confused about, if not highly offended, by the fact that they would find numerous different Christian churches in any given city or locality? I believe they would be incredulous, if not downright furious. But I don't believe that their answer to the situation would be to force them all to meet as the one true "church in any town", much less tell them they had to meet in one meeting hall. To be sure, they would not start their own church meeting, and then declare that all other churches in that locality were illegitimate. I believe they would do exactly what they did in establishing the original local churches in the first century - Teach and preach the true gospel wherever they were welcomed. They would correct and admonish where there was a need for correction and admonishment. To be sure, they would decry any false gospel, and any and all strange and unfamiliar teachings. Finally, they would surely call for the resignation or ouster of any elder, pastor, teacher or ministry leader who was patently unqualified, or became disqualified by his words or deeds.
-

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Quote:

This is all silly talk.

I agree. The non profit status is a big incentive because they are tax free. However, the flip side is that their books are open for review and they are being judged by a much higher standard.

Kerry makes $97,000. That is not a lot for someone to live in So Cal, however, I think he also gets an allowance for rent -- they might be providing living quarters that are valued at a certain amount. By splitting up these two they are able to say that no one is paid over $100,000.

In addition it is clear from the form that there are a number of children of the founders and officers who are also on the dole.

In the end the Lord will judge. Either He will say "well done, good and faithful servant" or He will say "you got your reward".

As for WL committing a crime with Daystar that would also implicate the brother who was doing the books. Telling the "elders" is stupid. They are not the authorities in this matter. He put them in a terrible bind, they have an allegation that they are not equipped to verify. This brother had several positive options:

1. refuse to sign any falsified records.
2. advise saints against waving their rights.
3. discuss this with two other brothers familiar with accounting and audits. If they agree with him, then
4. Take it to the leaders of Daystar (with a complete set of written records confirming the crime kept in a safety deposit box).
5. If they refuse to take the appropriate corrective action take it to the authorities.

Doing less than that (if he is a licensed accountant in the position of handling their books) makes him complicit. If he was not authorized to do their books then he is guilty of corporate espionage. Either way his claim of WL's guilt applies to him as well.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nonprofits do not make money LofT. That is why they are non profit. They generate income that is offset by outlay and may have more income than outlay creating a fund balance but that is not profit.

What is it about “nonprofit “ that is unclear?

Check your facts.

Drake

You are quite the character Drake, but you're making a fool of yourself again.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about my friend. I'd fill you in, but it would just be a waste of my time.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Nonprofits can and do make money. That is why your "work of ministry," LSM, has $100 million in assets.

Koinonia,

Who owns the $100M?

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Kerry makes $97,000. That is not a lot for someone to live in So Cal, however, I think he also gets an allowance for rent -- they might be providing living quarters that are valued at a certain amount. By splitting up these two they are able to say that no one is paid over $100,000.

Section "L" of the LSM tax return says this:

"The school FTTA (Full-Time Training in Anaheim) leased Kerry Robichux's home after he moved to Texas. The FTTA leases a number of homes in the area surrounding the training center. Kerry Robichaux was issued a 1099 for rent of $31,200 in 2015. This amount is based on an average monthly rate for similar homes in the area."

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What is a true local church? If you asked this question of most evangelical Christians, I believe the vast majority would answer "you mean a Christian church at a certain location?" They might very well ask "what church?"

If the scripture writing apostles, lets say John, Peter and Paul, were suddenly to appear today, how might they answer this question, "what is a true local church?" Now while I wouldn't pretend to know for sure exactly what they would say, I think we might have some clues in the epistles these men wrote to the original local churches.

I've made this point before - when Jesus introduced the term 'ekklesia' in the gospel, he did it with the possessive pronoun 'my'. There were ekklesia which were of, by and for Jesus, and were 'his', and there were many ekklesia which were not. Any gathering of people was an ekklesia (cf Acts 19:41, Gk). The ekklesia of Jesus came to be known as "the church". But even there we can see "the church of (belonging to, cooperating with, motivated by) Jesus".

UntoHim, I'd like to take a step back from your apostles John, Peter and Paul. I'd like to go back to Jesus. Where was the "true church" of Jesus, in the gospels? Where was the gathering of, by, and for Jesus? Easy - wherever Jesus was, there was the true church. Notice that it was infiltrated from the start - "Have I not chosen you? Yet one of you has the devil". And Peter alternated between channeling the spirit of the Father, and the opposing one - e.g., "Get behind me, Satan".

Yet it was the "true" ekklesia of Jesus.

Okay, now forward to the apostles. Peter and John are in the temple, and they look down at an expectant beggar. When Peter began to speak, "Silver and gold I have none. . ." (Acts 3:6) was this the true ekklesia? My answer remains, wherever the Lord is, is the true ekklesia. And clearly Jesus was there, judging by what happened subsequently. Now some may say that two or three Jesus-followers may "tell it to the church" (Matt 18:17) and therefore are not the church. But I say, if you have the name of the Lord and presence of the Lord, if you have power to heal, to loose and to bind on earth as in heaven, then creating a secondary structure above that is superfluous. Obviously two believers in Detroit do not encompass nor represent all believers in Detroit! But they clearly represent the Lord - he showed this.

So struggling over abstractions is a false trail. As UntoHim wrote, people are either qualified or unqualified by their words and deeds. Abstractions, however carefully parsed, do not make reality. The fact is that we're too clever by half. We create abstractions and become their slaves. "The pit we dig, we fall into", to paraphrase the psalmist.

We may become enamored of an abstraction, say "oneness". (it could be love, or peace, or truth, or justice, or joy, whatever) Then we see it as our lodestone, our point of clarity, of orientation. We see the morass around us, and propose a solution - the "church of oneness" or "local church on the ground of oneness" or whatever. That becomes our stand-in "true church". We've create an abstract ideal, and try to concretise, or implement, this concept.

But look at what happens. The abstraction becomes ensnared in our own fallen flesh. "Oneness", on the ground, became in our case slavish obedience to one man, and his quite obviously fallen children. Next thing, we were "covering drunken Noah" . . . how is this the true church?

Back to my original point. The true church is where Jesus is. If we focus on him we don't go wrong. We have 4 gospels, multiple intersecting witnesses. Nothing Paul wrote deviates from the Jesus of the gospels. The original disciples received Paul, and his ministry. But we should beware lest we take any abstraction introduced by Paul (or in the gospels for that matter) as our jumping-off point for today. That's unbalanced, and mis-aiming.

Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is the Way. Jesus is Wisdom. He is concrete and real. He's not a disembodied abstraction. He's a real person.

One final point - when Jesus met the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, were they the church? According to a 'technical reading' of Matt 18:17, no. They had to go back to Jerusalem and "tell it to the church [in Jerusalem]". Right? This is the typical reading, which LSM leverages to somehow 'control' or 'copyright' the the Lord's presence.

But I say this: the Lord can appear where he wants, when he wants. He can appear both in Jerusalem, and on the road to Emmaus!

#1 you have "seven spirits roaming through the earth" - the spirits go where they will, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where they come from and where they go. And believe me, they do God's will! "My word[spirit] doesn't return to Me void[or,empty]" (Isa 55:11) To presume that God is appearing to me, here, and therefore cannot appear to anyone else is ludicrous! What a god you have! The god of your fallen imagination, controlled by your fallen flesh! Don't imagine that your experience of his appearing, his healing, his comfort, his peace, his joy, however impressive, is the only "true" appearing and another's is "void". Just be thankful that the Lord visits you!

#2 When Jesus spoke, "let it be so", at that moment the Centurion's slave was healed. (Matt 8:13) Jesus was on the road, and the spirit of Jesus was in the house, healing someone. The disciples were in the "true ekklesia" with Jesus, and simultaneously someone was getting healed by this same True Jesus! So drop your concepts. Don't try to hold Jesus hostage in your abstract ideal, "oneness" or anything else. Just seek him with all your might, your strength, your heart. And love your neighbour. Don't worry about which abstraction is more-or-less true, and thereby presuming to judge which ekklesia is getting what, "of Jesus" or otherwise. That's a pit to fall into - avoid it. He's Judge of all.

Peace.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?

Drake, are you able (or willing) to answer this question?

[Boxjobox]

If the New Testament ministry is "I own these concepts, these words, these spiritual ideas", and " I own every church I created", and " my business is going to be sure that everyone conforms to my concepts" and " what I produced is the real church, the real testimony". And the work of that ministry is to build the business- isn't that a major disconnect from church history? WL/LSM then owes the Lutherians and the Bretheren a lot of royalties, because WL took a lot of their concepts and words and sold them as his own.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

If the New Testament ministry is "I own these concepts, these words, these spiritual ideas", and " I own every church I created", and " my business is going to be sure that everyone conforms to my concepts" and " what I produced is the real church, the real testimony". And the work of that ministry is to build the business- isn't that a major disconnect from church history? WL/LSM then owes the Lutherians and the Bretheren a lot of royalties, because WL took a lot of their concepts and words and sold them as his own.

W. Lee was allowed to steal ideas from everyone he wanted, and then peddled them as his own. But try to "stand on his shoulders" and LSM will slap a lawsuit on you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

W. Lee was allowed to steal ideas from everyone he wanted, and then peddled them as his own. But try to "stand on his shoulders" and LSM will slap a lawsuit on you.

Pyrite and Gold have the same appearance. But if you hit gold with a hammer it is malleable, pyrite will shatter. If you weigh gold it is far more dense than pyrite (an iron ore). If you melt gold it will become more pure as impurities will float to the top, pyrite will give off a foul smell.

This behavior by WL and LSM proves that the purpose of their ministry is financial profit. If you are a fool you will buy into the "ground of the church" doctrine, but everywhere it is tested it is proven to be "fool's gold". Likewise, if you are a fool you will buy into the "Ministry of the Age" and all the other terms coined by WL, but everywhere it is tested it is proven to be fool's gold.

The NT tells us to test the spirits.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, are you able (or willing) to answer this question?

So Drake, my man. Have you been away from your computer? Your silence on this is deafening. It's not a trick question ya know....maybe your answer will be....but at least give koinonia the pleasure of a response on this one.

-

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

W. Lee was allowed to steal ideas from everyone he wanted, and then peddled them as his own. But try to "stand on his shoulders" and LSM will slap a lawsuit on you.

So we can conclude that LSM is not a New Testament ministry, but a business that plagiarizes others works, packages this and sells it as a Christian product, and rounds up Christians who think it is their duty to go out and sell it to others.
So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So we can conclude that LSM is not a New Testament ministry, but a business that plagiarizes others works, packages this and sells it as a Christian product, and rounds up Christians who think it is their duty to go out and sell it to others.
So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

Well when you say it like that it doesn't sound very spiritual.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

Probably things have changed over the years, but the exclamation point when giving announcements in closing the prophesying meeting had been marketing the standing order. If you don't sign up, you 're missing out.....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So we can conclude that LSM is not a New Testament ministry, but a business that plagiarizes others works, packages this and sells it as a Christian product, and rounds up Christians who think it is their duty to go out and sell it to others.
So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

It started with Nee plagiarizing Penn-Lewis for Spiritual Man.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

It started with Nee plagiarizing Penn-Lewis for Spiritual Man.

Others such as Otto Stockmayer, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Evan Roberts, and Madame Guyon have given similar testimonies. Because we have received the same commission as they, I have freely quoted their writings. Because there are so many places where I have referenced them, I have not made specific reference to the sources.

-Nee

It seems that Nee felt that having the same 'commission' as other people made plagiarism okay, or that if it was too troublesome to cite sources, then it wasn't required.

Although Nee did admit that he heavily 'borrowed' from others, I think that he also should have also felt ethically obligated to take measures to stop anyone from getting the idea that his publications represented anything 'unique'. He didn't do that and consequently, his ministry was been portrayed as unique, as something that came directly from the seer of the divine revelation in the present age.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Terry

Probably things have changed over the years, but the exclamation point when giving announcements in closing the prophesying meeting had been marketing the standing order. If you don't sign up, you 're missing out.....

I left in the late 80's. From things I read here, it sounds like they doubled down on the WL/LSM symbiotic relation with money flowing one way and literature flowing the other. Training camps to get people to push the products. Prophesying meetings to be sure everyone is thinking the same thing and speaking from the source, who has been dead now for so many years.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I left in the late 80's. From things I read here, it sounds like they doubled down on the WL/LSM symbiotic relation with money flowing one way and literature flowing the other.

That's a keen way to put it Bjb. Symbiosis explains the intimacy of the process of the bi-directional nature of the handing-over of the money. (We should talk more about the practice of "Handing-Over." That was born with Nee and Lee way back in Shanghai).

In my days in the LC, I remember that, there was a preternatural, maybe mystical -- considered spiritual -- nature about buying Stream products. Doing it was considered advancing God's cause.

Daystar comes to mind. I was skeptical when I first heard the early plans for the Daystar project. The selling and marketing of it turned me off.

They wanted investors. It was not just another business, it was a Recovery Business. It was considered, and sold as, advancing the purpose of God ... with a promise of a sizable return on the investment ... of course ... it was of God, so everyone was told.

Some brothers became intoxicated, with what they thought to be the moving of the Spirit. In a kind of frenzy, some threw all their savings and finances into the Daystar business. It was indeed a symbiosis, considered a powerful spiritual one.

The proof of this can be found in what Lee said when asked about the saints that lost their money. His response was : "They lost their virginity."

In other words, they -- Lee and the investing saints -- engaged in a very symbiotic intimacy, and their spiritual innocence was taken from them ; their maidenhead, in this case, taken from them, leaving them bleeding, was their life savings. I knew brothers that lost everything.

It's like they were bewitched. Just as those that buy Stream products today are.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, my man. Have you been away from your computer? Your silence on this is deafening. It's not a trick question ya know....maybe your answer will be....but at least give koinonia the pleasure of a response on this one.

-

UntoHim,

Yes. I have been away.

I don’t know for sure. It is possible. As I have not been there for some time I do not know the actual practice. From the website it seems they might be so I assume they are unless i see something that proves differently.

Drake

[Steel]

I was saved when I was 17 years old. But I pretty much immediately went out into the world and lived a very worldly life until the Lord brought me into the church life (which for me is simply consistent fellowship with other born again believers in Chris Jesus) when I was 34.

Prior to being saved, I had two very definite dreams about the Lord between maybe 13 to 15... Dreams I can remember today as though I had them last night.

Within the first month of coming into the church life (not the local church, church life, the church life according to my definition above) I was taken to a women's Christian conference by my sister-in-law and brother, who were both saved some twenty years earlier and were very passionate towards the Lord. There were some 300+ women at this conference, and just three men — the speakers husband, my brother, and myself. After the woman speaker had finished her presentation she came down into the crowd and started speaking with and praying for those who were there. She was at the front of the hotel ballroom when she abruptly stopped what she was doing and then called out asking if there was a pastor in the room. She then looked to the back of the ballroom and there was suddenly a parting of bodies all the way back to where I was standing with my brother. I looked back at him and he was looking at me. At the same time the woman speaker had started walking very purposefully up an aisle towards us, saying all sorts of things regarding God having a message for this pastor/priest/person of God... And by this time I was like "It's not me, I just came into this thing a few weeks ago, I don't know anything" and only trying to find a way out of there." But the doors right behind me were locked, and so I turned towards this woman wondering what was going on. She proceeded to prophesy over me for maybe a minute or little more, and the things she said had the entire room absolutely quiet. After she finished she went back to speaking and praying with others, but you could sense that things were over. I was just standing there at the back and people were just looking at me in a strange way. Even the woman who had prophesied over me, afterwards when she was sitting down, kept looking at me with this strange look.

That was some twenty years ago, and over this time, little by little, the Lord has gained me in certain ways that I've come to realize were necessary for Him to bring me into the reality of what was prophesied over me.

And having experience with LSM's ministry, and with the local church has been an intricate part of this needed experience.

When I first came into the church life (my definition of it) I was given a New King James bible as a gift, and I read it every day for hours. And I kept a journal of my thoughts... My insights to what I believed the Lord was revealing to me as I read and considered scripture.

I used to sit at my dining table with all sorts of reference books, reading scripture and journaling my thoughts. Then one day the Lord led my wife and I into a local church meeting hall. No one had invited us. And we had no idea what it was all about. The sign outside read "The Meeting Hall of the Chruch in Miami" and we had wondered if it was some offshoot branch of the Jehovah Witness religion. But we were curious (or so we thought) and one evening on the way home from the supermarket saw cars in the parking lot and decided to stop and find out what the place was. When I approached the front door I could hear people inside and so I knocked and opened the door. There were a group of men sitting in a kind of rectangle shape, facing each other, saying "Amen... Amen... Lord Jesus... Amen...".

Which was really weird for me because I had just come through a whole experience that included seeing the awful division that exists within Christianity, and in response, developing a project called OneAmen that had as its goal the bringing together of all believers into the oneness of God... In and through the Amen of God, Christ Jesus.

And here I was... Totally out of the blue... Being confronted with a group of believers all saying as one... "Amen, Lord Jesus".

I stopped me in my tracks... A brother got up and came to me and I asked him what was going on. He told me they were believers just having a prayer meeting. I asked him... And these were my words... "Is this some sort of cult or something?" and he just smiled and answered "No... We're just people who believe in the Lord Jesus."

And just so that you are clear... I asked that question because a pastor had told me that the Jehovah Witness religion was a cult, and thinking this had something to do with them, I asked.

See, I come from the Caribbean, and the word "cult" isn't quite what it is here in the US. So when I asked my question I was doing so in an innocent manner, having no idea of any the history of the local church to the word "cult".

Anyway, I asked the brother if my wife and I could come in and he said it would be better if we came back to a televised bible study they had on Thursdays. And I said we would.

We were the first people at the door on Thursday evening. For some reason we were just very excited. We had no idea regarding any background to this local church, we were just inwardly excited to see what it was all about.

And so when someone came and opened the doors we went inside and sat down to look at this televised bible study. Some people said hello, but other than that no one said anything else to us.

The speaker was Ed Marks, and he was speaking on Psalms 68... And what a wonderful speaking it was.

Word by word the brother opened up the scripture.

I remember turning to my wife and saying, "This guy is doing what I do, but doing it so much better."

And so that was our introduction to the LSM ministry.

And since that time, it has been the foundation of our relationship with the local church.

I have no interest in the politics or religiousity that is within the business of the ministry and gets forced on the local churches. All that I know is that, for me, the ministry itself is true.

Are there some shortcomings in the ministry... Absolutely.

But then I long before learned to eat the hay and leave the sticks.

And even more importanly... I take everything before the Lord (or at least try my best to).

For me, and my wife... And I speak only for me and my wife... This ministry has been some of the most helpful we have ever received.

In this I have no doubt.

And I share it without hesitation.

But I also know... And know this because of the ministry and my own experience... I also know that the ministry is just ink on paper... And because you read it, and even hold to it in a natural way... This does not mean that the reality it reveals is received, abided in, and lived out by the person reading/holding to it.

It's one thing to be hearers... Quite another to be doers of what we've heard.

This comment is far longer than I had intented to write, so I'll end with this...

As I started to read the LSM ministry I realized that things that I was reading about were aligned to what I had been writing in my journal based on my own scripture study.

And even more strange was that I actually came across some sentences that were almost word for word what I had written.

Brothers and sisters... I'm nobody special.

I strugge every day to just put one foot in front of the other.

I suffer as most in a normal human life.

I have very little confidence in myself...

Except for when I begin to speak to others about the Lord. At that time I know that I know that I know that if I am turned to my spirit, where the Lord dwells one with me, and me one with the Lord... And I open my mouth according to his leading... Rivers of living water flow out of me.

I love the Lord... So desperately.

I have nothing else.

He is my everything.

And it is by His hand... Not my hand... That I have come to this.

And it is His hand that led my wife and I into the local church and the LSM ministry.

And I can't... And won't... Deny that.

Now is the way of the local church "right"... Is the ministry "right"...

I have no thought regarding the "rightness" of things.

All I pursue is His life.

And in and through my experiences with the local church and teh LSM ministry... I can say with a pure heart... I have received and grown in His life.

And this growth in life is the reality of what He declared in Matthew 16:18...

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

And this is all I care about... Because it is what He cares about.

Will we remain in the local church?

Absolutely.

But it might not be the aspect of the local church that refers to itself as the Recovery.

If the Lord leads that way.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

I have no interest in the politics or religiousity that is within the business of the ministry and gets forced on the local churches. All that I know is that, for me, the ministry itself is true.

Are there some shortcomings in the ministry... Absolutely.

Thanks for sharing Steel, I enjoyed hearing your story. You have an interesting perspective that rings with a tone of genuineness that the LSM churches need. God bless you. May the Lord cover you and your family.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

And even more importantly... I take everything before the Lord (or at least try my best to).

For me, and my wife... And I speak only for me and my wife... This ministry has been some of the most helpful we have ever received.

In this I have no doubt.

And I share it without hesitation.

But I also know... And know this because of the ministry and my own experience... I also know that the ministry is just ink on paper... And because you read it, and even hold to it in a natural way... This does not mean that the reality it reveals is received, abided in, and lived out by the person reading/holding to it.

It's one thing to be hearers... Quite another to be doers of what we've heard.

Brother Steel, thanks for sharing your heartfelt testimony. I appreciate that. As one who also was led by the Lord to the LC as an answer to prayer, I surely understand what you have written.

Let me also speak as one who actively served in the LC's for 30 years until I was forced by LSM to decide whether I was "of Witness Lee" or if I was "of Titus Chu." Of course they didn't actually say that, rather proponents of both sides challenged me to "stand for the truth." But the truth is that I should not have to choose sides in the first place. What happened to the "ground of locality" for my churchlife?

I love the Lord, I love His word, and I love His people. This love was given to me the day I received my Savior. The LC's were special because each member was given the encouragement to speak for the Lord in the meetings. Slowly over time, however, that liberty became not an opportunity to speak for the Lord but for the teachings from LSM. Because of this division, the Lord led me out of the LC to find Him elsewhere.

Let me share two of the many verses the Lord used to help me depart. First was Acts 20.30 where Paul warned the brothers with tears that "from yourselves men would rise up speaking perverted things to draw the disciples after themselves." This is what happened over time. Initially WL was a respected minister, but over time he was exalted as the Minister of the Age, today's Paul, the acting God, etc. and LSM became dominant over all the LC's. "Local" was gone, only to be replaced by oppressive workers at a dominant headquarters. Since you are new, you will not learn this for some time.

Secondly, Jesus told the disciples to "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." Initially, we in the LC's actively sought out the "pure word of God" for guidance. Christ was all and in all, and His word was our sole source of instruction. Slowly over time, however, all the "extras" came in from LSM. These are the "leaven" that the Lord warned us of. Soon we learned that the pure word was not sufficient, but we needed Lee's "interpreted word," the Life-Studies. Then WL boasted that we would become "god" in life and nature, yet the Bible was silent on this. His steady drumbeat of condemnation on all of Christianity sowed seeds of pride and arrogance into his followers. Today it's hard to find a message of his which does not criticize others. This is the same pride which produced Laodicea in Rev. 3.

I admonish you to be careful, and never forget your practice to "take everything before the Lord." God bless you on your journey! "And now I commit you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance with those who are sanctified." (Acts 20.32)

[aron]

Steel, my own impression of the "oneness" of the LC is that it's the oneness of a museum display case. Everything neat and proper, and completely lifeless. Anyone with initiative or originality is a threat to leadership.

Regarding the ministry, is that we were told to get the good building material - young, naive and vulnerable college students. No matter that the Lord had said to seek those who could not repay you in this age. And when I began to hear the voice of my Shepherd in scripture, I was told, "No, those are the vain words of fallen men". See my thread on the Psalms.

Eventually the choice became stark for me: the LC or the Shepherd. The ministry of the interpreted word, or scripture.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by aron

Steel, my own impression of the "oneness" of the LC is that it's the oneness of a museum display case. Everything neat and proper, and completely lifeless. Anyone with initiative or originality is a threat to leadership.

Thing is...

I meet with the local church here in Austin... And I am certainly not "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case...".

And the only "...leadership..." the church has is the headship of the Lord.

And holding to the above reality regarding who the Lord is as the head of the church... The one church... And who I am in His life... According to scripture... I am in the oneness of God... Which is the oneness of the church... God's church.

And this oneness of God... Is... The oneness of His church.

And this oneness is in all who have been born again into Christ Jesus.

Now many may not see this as our reality, and therefore be able to realize this reality by entering into/abiding in it every moment of every day... Which is what God desires...

But that's okay... The Lord knows... And we need to trust that He is dealing with this matter... According to His divine wisdom and need... And not our human opinion and preference.

Which is what after many years the Lord has brought me to see regarding the reality of His church... That He is building.

When I meet with the brothers and sisters in what is referred to as The Local Church... I try to see (it's still a work in progress) only Christ — meaning, see these brothers and sisters as who they are in Him.

Which is to say... I try to see as God sees.

And not only those meeting as The Local Church... But all born again believers in all places.

And this is crucial for the working out of my own salvation. And for all saved believers.

Originally Posted by aron

Regarding the ministry, is that we were told to get the good building material - young, naive and vulnerable college students. No matter that the Lord had said to seek those who could not repay you in this age. And when I began to hear the voice of my Shepherd in scripture, I was told, "No, those are the vain words of fallen men". See my thread on the Psalms.

Until we are fully perfected we will all in one way or another, and to one degree or another, return to the vomit/muck that is the way of our fallen human nature.

Maybe about eight months ago I had a confrontation with an elder here in Austin regarding the matter of the ministry focused on the students of UT.

It was in a kind of district meeting when things related to the district are discussed.

The elder had just spoken about the needs of the "full timers" and the students they were shepherding... Specifically in relation to the opening of homes for these students to be brought to.

Wonderful... But having a concern of my own regarding the opening of my home, I suggested that we look at the matter from the homeowners point of view... Which I thought was perfectly reasonable to bring up.

Well... It seems that in the mind of the elder, it wasn't. And he jumped all over me.

But instead of responding in kind, I simply started calling on the name of the Lord... And invited him to do the same with me... And this got him even more upset... And even caused a brother to shout across the room at me, telling me that didn't I know that it was an elder that I was speaking to.

I just continued to call on the name of the Lord.

Long story short... The brother who shouted at me from accross the room, upon the meeting ending, immediately came and asked forgiveness (what a wonderful testimony and pattern for me to experience from him).

But it took a few weeks for the elder to do the same.

On a Lord's Day morning, I walked into the meeting and saw that there was only one empty chair at the front... Right next to the very same elder. I said "Lord?" but immediately knew inwardly that this was of Him. So I went and sat on the chair and the brother/elder turn to me and asked forgiveness.

aron...

There is no doubt in my mind that there are many, many problems with the body of Christ... But either I believe — and give myself to — the reality that scripture reveals regarding He who is within me being greater than he who is in the world... Or I don't.

And more and more as I go on with the Lord... I am trying to do just that.

Originally Posted by aron

Eventually the choice became stark for me: the LC or the Shepherd. The ministry of the interpreted word, or scripture.

Amen...

To choose the Lord is to make the proper choice... A choice that is both in life, and for life.

But it has been my experience that the experiences the Lord has allowed me to go through — "good" and "bad" — is what has caused me to be able to make choices for Him... Choices that are in life.

So I try not to dispise my experiences... Or those associated with my experiences.

This is not an easy thing to do.

In fact...

Scripture tells us... It's impossible to do... Apart from Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

Thing is...

I meet with the local church here in Austin... And I am certainly not "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case...".

And the only "...leadership..." the church has is the headship of the Lord.
.

Never went to Austin. Maybe there it's different. I only share my experiences and subjective impressions. Obviously everyone else has different experiences and impressions, which are as valid to them as mine are to me.

Sometimes when I post, I forget that this assumption of mine isn't always conveyed in the text of my writing. But am glad to acknowledge it if it becomes an issue.

[Steel]

I just came across this letter and found it interesting and relevant... Forgive me if it has already been presented...

Here is an excerpt...

"Open Letter to Brother Benson Phillips from Russia

Dear Brother Benson,

At the outset allow me to explain why I chose to write you an open letter, rather than writing you privately. Originally I wanted to write you a private letter, but then I learned that you do not read correspondence which is perceived to be “negative” in content. Therefore, I felt to choose this way of communication, hoping that this way my concerns will somehow reach you.
First of all, let me thank you for all the help and care I received from you personally. I still remember my time at the FTT in Moscow as the best time in my life. My present position is not the result of personal offenses. I was always treated with love and care. My present position is a truth issue."

The full letter can be found here...

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/CE/...rom_Russia.pdf

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

Maybe about eight months ago I had a confrontation with an elder here in Austin regarding the matter of the ministry focused on the students of UT.

It was in a kind of district meeting when things related to the district are discussed.

The elder had just spoken about the needs of the "full timers" and the students they were shepherding... Specifically in relation to the opening of homes for these students to be brought to.

Wonderful... But having a concern of my own regarding the opening of my home, I suggested that we look at the matter from the homeowners point of view... Which I thought was perfectly reasonable to bring up.

Well... It seems that in the mind of the elder, it wasn't. And he jumped all over me.

But instead of responding in kind, I simply started calling on the name of the Lord... And invited him to do the same with me... And this got him even more upset... And even caused a brother to shout across the room at me, telling me that didn't I know that it was an elder that I was speaking to.

I just continued to call on the name of the Lord.

Why do you think the elder "jumped all over" you? Or this other brother "shouted" at you?

Your post below is interesting to me. You don't deny the Church in Austin to be "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case... but say that you are not those things. You say that there is no leadership other than the Lord - but that brother that yelled at you clearly thought otherwise. I have found that there is a implicit and explicit hierarchy of leadership in the LSM churches - with Austin being no exception - I'm sure you'd agree as well.

It seems like you are looking for the best in the church, or finding opportunity to see with Christ's eyes... the situation in the church - which is very commendable.

What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by aron

Never went to Austin. Maybe there it's different.

The way of religion is in all natural humanity... So anywhere you find natural humanity you find humans taking the way of religion — in one way or another, and to one degree or another.

That's just how it is.

And according to scripture... In His great wisdom God chose to leave all born again eternally saved believers in Christ Jesus with our old fallen man for a time... Which means we will all struggle with the way of religion inherent within our old fallen man... For pretty much our entire earthly lifetime.

So anywhere you find born again believers in Christ Jesus... There is certainly the possibility to find expressions of our old fallen man.

But praise the Lord... According to scripture...

2 Corinthians 5:17... "So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new."

Which can often seem contradictory to what we see/think/conclude within our natural minds from the experience of others... And, if we're honest, with ourselves.

So then what?

What I have come to understand is that my reality in Christ is that I am a new creation (corporately, with all other born again believers)... But that I have a hard time believing/realizing this, and therefore I struggle in applying this reality in my daily living and being.

Which again is something that scripture tells us can happen.

Christ... Christ... And more Christ is what I need.

And this is true of any group of believers meeting in any place.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

I just came across this letter and found it interesting and relevant... Forgive me if it has already been presented...

Here is an excerpt...

"Open Letter to Brother Benson Phillips from Russia

Dear Brother Benson,

At the outset allow me to explain why I chose to write you an open letter, rather than writing you privately. Originally I wanted to write you a private letter, but then I learned that you do not read correspondence which is perceived to be “negative” in content. Therefore, I felt to choose this way of communication, hoping that this way my concerns will somehow reach you.
First of all, let me thank you for all the help and care I received from you personally. I still remember my time at the FTT in Moscow as the best time in my life. My present position is not the result of personal offenses. I was always treated with love and care. My present position is a truth issue."

The full letter can be found here...

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/CE/...rom_Russia.pdf

The writer of that letter was a regular poster on this forum.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Why do you think the elder "jumped all over" you? Or this other brother "shouted" at you?

The elder... Because he perhaps saw me as trying to cause division by directing the discussion towards a matter that he had not considered to discuss.

Which may have been the result of a past experience regarding my speaking to him about religiousity entering into the church life of some very senior saints (their declaration, not mine... I just thought to mention it to him so that he may perhaps address it openly before the congregation... Which is a story for another day).

Additionally... When I prophesy at meetings I often take a different way of speaking than that of sticking to the specific line of the Morning Revival topic... Which I have been told can be confusing to some saints.

When you hold offenses in your heart these can build up and eventually overflow at just the slightest hint of what you may see as provocation.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your post below is interesting to me. You don't deny the Church in Austin to be "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case... but say that you are not those things.

It's not that I don't deny these accusations... I simply chose to address the matter from a different angle than might have been expected.

I have the life of Christ in me... And I am a part of the local church here in Austin... Therefore... If just by me... The local church here in Austin is not "...lifeless..."

But I am certainly not the only one with the Lord's life.

As I've said in other comments... All born again believers in Christ Jesus possess life... Divine life.

And I even got up and declared this at the past Lord's Day meeting.

A young university student who has recently come into the meeting prophesied about the matter of rejoicing... Saying how important he has realized that it is for us to rejoice in the Lord.

I considered this as the meeting was going on — specifically what rejoicing is — and felt the Lord's shining regarding what the reality of our rejoicing actually is...

Our rejoicing as believers in Christ is the divine life we possess... Being expressed.

This was, for me, a rhema word... But as I was speaking this and looking at the faces of some others there (not everyone)... I saw their faces shining with life... Divine life... Even as they received what I was saying.

They were rejoicing even as I was speaking the reality of what our rejoicing is.

How wonderful is that.

And what does the above have to do with what you asked?

A church that is lifeless is a church that in not rejoicing...

A church that is... NOT... lifeless... Is a church that is always rejoicing.

1 Thessalonians 5:16... "Always rejoice,..."

Now I know that none of us (most of us) struggle to rejoice... Always...

But...

Scripture tells us that when one of us falls short, this shortage can, and should, be made up by others who have the measure of grace that is lacking in the shortage of other believers.

So if I have life, and others lack life, then, according to scripture, if I choose to, I can help make up this lack.

Which would mean that the local church here in Austin would not be "...lifeless...".

And this goes for the situation/condition of all born again believers in Christ Jesus... Meaning... All local expressions of His one church.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You say that there is no leadership other than the Lord - but that brother that yelled at you clearly thought otherwise.

I certainly did say that a brother yelled at me regarding how he thought I was speaking to an elder.

But praise the Lord...

The headship of the Lord was quickly expressed in the action of this same brother immediately coming to me after the meeting to ask forgiveness.

And that is to the glory of the Lord... And is what I consider of importantance regarding what our experience was.

Some people may choose to stop at the yelling... I choose to move on to the taking of the cross and the bring into resurrection life.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I have found that there is a implicit and explicit hierarchy of leadership in the LSM churches - with Austin being no exception - I'm sure you'd agree as well.

Sure...

Again...

There's folly religion with all its folly within every single human... Including every born again in Christ human.

And often, the way of religion gets the better of us.

But praise the Lord...

He who is in us is greater than the way of the folly religion in us.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It seems like you are looking for the best in the church, or finding opportunity to see with Christ's eyes... the situation in the church - which is very commendable.

Many years ago I was studying the matter of God taking Abraham up to Mount Moriah to sacrifice Isaac. During this study I came see that this is indicative of God bring Abraham up to His level so that Abraham could see as God sees.

When we're told by scripture that God (the Angel) said to Abraham... "...Do not stretch out your hand upon the boy, nor do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." . . . I found it strange...

Why would God say to Abraham... "...for now I know that you fear God,..."

We know God must have known that Abraham feared Him... We know this because He said it.

But why did God need to tell Abraham this?

I believe the answer is found in the meaning of the Hebrew word "...Moriah...", the name of the place God took Abraham to.

There are a few definitions of the word "...Moriah..." put forward... But one in particular fit the context... And this one definition is simply "...to see Jah..."

And, to "...see Jah..." is to see as "...Jah..." sees.

I came to realize that God spoke this to Abraham so that Abraham would know how God saw him... So that Abraham would know who he was in the eyes of God.

Seeing this revolutionized the way I started "seeing" scripture.

Shoot... Seeing it revolutionized the way I see everything... Or at least know I can, and try to see everything.

And I don't think of it as "..looking for the best in the church..." or anything else... I simpy see it as looking for the reality in all things.

And since scripture tells us that Christ is the reality of all things... Then it is simply to look for Christ in all things.

Which is what I believe all believers in Christ are called to do even now, and will do one day.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?

This is a question I will answer in a following comment.

Thanks for asking... I know it is in the Lord and have been patienly awaiting it.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?

First, let me say that I knew that if I started participating on these boards that at some point I would be asked this type of question... And perhaps it is what caused me to be hesitant to participate.

From my related info it seems that I joined this website in 2015, which was after I started meeting with the local church here in Austin. Which was some eight years after I had stopped meeting with the local church in Miami (FL). Which was where my wife and I had first come in contact with the local church back in 2003.

What I will say in my following speaking on the matter is very personal, to both my wife and myself, and as such, there will be particular matters that I will simply not go further into, so have no expectation of me doing so and you won't be disappointed... End of story.

So...

"What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?"

The simple answer is... The direct leading of the Lord.

And here is how I know...

In 2014 my wife chose to separate herself from me. There was no sin involved, it was just that two people had grown apart and had different thoughts — and the struggle that comes with these thoughts — that we were both dealing with, and as a result had no idea how to go on together.

At that time we had not been meeting with the local church, anywhere, for some eight years. And neither of us had any thought about doing so.

So here we were... Going our separate ways... Not really understanding why, as we both loved each other... But just not knowing how to go on with each other.

At that time we were living in an apartment complex, and one afternoon, as I was helping her pack a Uhaul truck with her things a white Ford F150 pickup truck pulled up. There was a parking space that was empty right by the stairs of the apartment building we lived in and being empty was helping us with moving things. The driver of the pickup stuck his head out and asked if he was okay to park in the space. I said to him he could but that it being empty was helping us with moving things. The driver said "No, problem" and just parked in another spot.

Keep that driver of the pickup in your mind... He plays a very important part in all of this.

It was the end of the month when my wife moved out of our apartment into one that she had rented on her own, and being without a job I couldn't afford to continue renting the apartment we were in before she moved out. Which meant I had to try and find somewhere else to live... Which proved to be a problem, as no one was responding to my emails about rooms they wanted to rent on a short term basis (I was considering moving out of Austin so I was not looking to get involved in a longterm rental contract).

There was one person who eventually responded, but when we tried to get together to work it out there always seemed to be some confusion that caused us not to. The person actually ended up having to go out of town for a week on short notice and that pretty much ended any thought of me renting a room from him as I needed something quickly.

So here I was, the time was up at the apartment and I had nowhere to stay. This was a Friday, and I was in a Barnes and Noble on my computer (free internet connection) desperately trying to find some solution to my problem.

And know this, I had not stopped considering God through all of this. On the contrary, I was having what I thought to be terrible battles with God about the circumstances/situation I found myself in. I was telling Him in no uncertain terms (and often even using curse words — I was hurting very badly, feeling quite forsaken) that He could just go and find someone else to get to do whatever it was He needed done, because I was through with it all. I told Him that I believe in Him but wanted nothing more to do with Him.

It was a very painful time for me. My wife on the other hand was coping quite well and was moving on without any problems, but I was struggling.

So here I was in Barnes and Noble when I got a call on my cell phone.

It was the driver of the white Ford pickup truck.

I'd forgotten that he had asked if we needed help to give him a call and he would help us with the moving. When he'd made his offer I didn't have my cell phone with me so I gave him my number and said thanks.

It seems he had put my number in his phone... And this is how he was able to call me.

And why did he call me?

He was having a bible study in his apartment, and not knowing I was a born again believer in Christ, and in his words, totally out of the blue, thought to invite me to this bible study (thinking maybe I could be saved).

Lord Jesus... How our God cares for us.

Here I was, totally desperate to find somewhere to stay other than my car, absolutely not happy with God... And this brother in Christ calls me about coming to a bible study at his apartment.

Against all my natural man reasoning/feelings... I accepted his invitation and went to his bible study.

And during the study — remember, neither the driver of the pickup, or the one other person who was there, knew that I was a Christian — we came to a part that was difficult for them to grasp... And I was able to explain it to them. Which is when they found out that I was saved and knew the Lord.

At the end of the study, Kenny, the driver of the white pickup asked me what my situation was, and I told him. He told me that it would be okay if I wanted to sleep for the night on the couch in his apartment living room, which I gladly accepted.

I ended up staying with Kenny, sleeping on a inflatable mattress... For the next three months... At which time my wife had become convicted of the situation between us and had asked me to get back together with her.

Praise the Lord, right.

And now we come to the second part of this experience... The part that has to do with my coming back into the local church.

But I'll speak on that in a following comment.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

And so when someone came and opened the doors we went inside and sat down to look at this televised bible study. Some people said hello, but other than that no one said anything else to us.

The speaker was Ed Marks, and he was speaking on Psalms 68... And what a wonderful speaking it was.

Word by word the brother opened up the scripture.

I remember turning to my wife and saying, "This guy is doing what I do, but doing it so much better."

And so that was our introduction to the LSM ministry..

Not sure how much you are aware of the history of LSM. Philip Lee, Daystar, Little Bankers, Youth Propagation Groups, Let's go Linko . . . in order to survive in the LSM you have to know nothing. Like one brother said in the Great Rebellion of '89, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand". Or Ed Marks, "I'm a monkey".

Is this transformation? Into what?

Originally Posted by ZNP

I ate dinner at the church in NY tonight along with Ed Marks. I knew Ed from Houston, we were both in the church in Houston in 1978-1980, then we both went to Irving together during the construction of the meeting hall there. All in all we were together for 4 1/2 years. 3 years in Houston and 1 1/2 years in Irving. While in Houston Ed gave me his car.

So when I heard he was going to be here I wanted to get his side of the story about the letter he signed apologizing to Phillip Lee. I met Phillip Lee while in Irving. He invited me and about 12 other brothers to go for "fellowship". We sat and watched him eat lobster at a very expensive Chinese restaurant. When I returned to the worksite I realized he needed the 12 of us so that he could expense the trip as "fellowship with the workers on the Irving hall". It was very clear to me that PL was a lascivious, gluttonous, deceitful man.

So I asked Ed what his side of the story was concerning this letter. He told me that there is always another side. I told him surely you can tell me now what it is, that was 30 years ago. He said that he was "a monkey" and held his hands to his eyes and then his ears. I told him I would never assume that, I reminded him that he was mentored by Dirk Engels and George Farmer. I told him those brothers were serious brothers. He told me that PL "had gone to be with the Lord". I said that I was not there to speak negatively of PL, rather I wanted to hear his side of why he signed that letter. He said he didn't know anything. I told him that one of the sisters that was abused by PL had come to Houston, he had to have known, this wasn't the first time it happened, John Ingalls and the other brothers had excommunicated him after warning him. He said that "Witness Lee was very happy with that letter."

Shortly after this Dennis Cooley, a brother who has been in the leadership of the church in NY for about 20 years and a brother I know very well (I lived with his brother in a brother's house in Odessa Texas) pulled me aside. He was angry that I talked to Ed. I told him I've known Ed since he first came into the church life and I wanted to ask him a question and this is the first time I have seen him since this event happened. He wanted to know if I had some kind of agenda to disrupt the meeting, I told him I had no idea that Ed was coming until yesterday when it was announced in the meeting (I had just happened to visit, the first time in about 10 years). Dennis said that Ed doesn't want to deal with this now. I said this has been 30 years, when are you going to deal with it? I can understand 3 months after the event you don't want to deal with it because you don't have all the facts, but at some point you have to deal with it. Dennis asked that I leave and not attend the fellowship, so I left.

I understand that you cannot judge someone for a mistake they made the moment they make the mistake, but at some point it is time to say "I made a mistake". The Lord Jesus died on the cross to deal with sin. He treats the matter of dealing with sin very seriously. For Ed, or the elders in Anaheim, or for the leaders in the Lord's Recovery to pretend that they can ignore sin, pretend they don't see it, pretend they don't hear it is an insult to the Lord Jesus. Surely God the father will not wink at this sin.

[Steel]

And now, having some background... Let's get to the specific answer to this question I was asked...

"What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?"

While staying with Kenny (the driver of the white pickup who had called and invited me to a bibe study at his apartment) we often had deep fellowship about the things scripture revealed.

We also had a few more bible studies with the other person who had been with us on that first night.

It was after one of the studies, this time at a Starbucks, that Kenny said something to me about knowing that God had a very special mountain bike for him in the house that had been prepared for him in heaven.

Both Kenny and I ride mountain bikes (Kenny is a master mountain biker, I'm just okay at it) so we had been speaking about mountain bikes before and I guess this is how it came up.

Well, when I heard him say this I immediately felt the leading to speak with him about what scripture tells us regarding the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, and God abiding with man in the New Jerusalem.

Now Kenny is a born again believer who had been saved in his early teens. His stepfather is a pastor of a small home church, and Kenny knows scripture.

But he had never paid any attention to this particular scripture verse...

Revelation 21:10... "And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,..."

And then I brought up...

Revelation 21:2... "And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

After this Kenny wanted to know more, and so I kept speaking to him about it but he would say that my speaking was just too long and complicated.

So one day I said before the Lord that I would try to write something on it for him... Something simple and concise.

Fifteen pages of writing later I knew I was not doing what he was asking for.

On the one hand I was thoroughly enjoying my own study on the matter, but on the other hand it was not going to help Kenny.

So here I was again, back in Barnes and Noble, utilizing their free internet connection, when suddenly there was a small voice in me that said, "Go to the meeting."

Just like that... Simple and direct... "Go to the meeting."

And the thing is, I instantly knew what "...meeting..." I was to go to.

Now keep in mind this was just a few weeks after myself and my wife had separated, so I was still all about leaving Austin and finding a job somewhere else. I was not happy about the circumstances of my life, and still living in a small apartment living room. Every morning I had to deflate the mattress I was sleeping on and pack my stuff away into a small 3' x 3' floor space that had been clear for me to do just that with.

And yet here I was having who I firmly believed was the Lord, telling me to go to a meeting of a group of believers I had not met with in eight years, and had no intention of meeting with.

I simply said, "No."

And that was that.

Until I found myself on Saturday in Barnes and Noble doing the same thing and the same voice spoke to me again.

This time I felt convicted that I had said "No" the day before... So I said "Yes, okay, I'll go."

The next morning I got up to get ready to go to the 10am meeting of the local church here in Austin, but Kenny had already gotten up and was taking a shower and getting ready for his stepfather's home meeting. So I had to wait.

By the time I got out of the apartment and was headed to the meeting I knew I was going to be late. But I just went anyway.

So I got to the meeting hall around 10:30am. No one was around and I simply push the door open to enter the room the meeting was taking place in.

Now read carefully to what I am going to say...

There is a senior brother named Armando here in Austin who was giving the introduction to the Morning Revival that was being used at that time.

The subject of the Morning Revival book was Genesis.

And as I pushed the door open and walked in... This is what came out of brother Armando's mouth...

"Joseph is a type of Christ."

Nobody in the meeting knew who I was... So nobody knew my name was Joseph.

In fact... Get this... I never used the name Joseph as my name before coming to Austin. I had always gone by the name Craig, which is my middle name, and had only come to be called Joseph, which is actually my first name, because of what is written on my Residency Card (formerly Green Card, which requires what is written on your birth certificate) and which is the name everyone greeted my by on my first day at my first job here in Austin.

From birth my parents, although giving me the first name Joseph because my sister who was born a year before me was named Mary (who knows why parents do things), they preferred my second name, Craig, and had always called me Craig.

I have only ever used the name Joseph since coming to live in Austin, and not because I chose to, but because of what happened when I got my first job here (long stroy).

And yet... Here I was... Coming into a meeting that I had only decided to come to a day before, and one that I really had no interest in being at... Hearing a person say as I opened the door... "Joseph is a type of Christ."

I sat quietly in a chair and tears started running down my face.

Lord Jesus... How I love You.

And how I know You love me.

Near the end of the prophesying meeting I stood up and spoke, telling those there who I was.

After the meeting, a few came to speak with me, but no one invited me to have lunch with them. So for whatever reason I went to the bookroom and bought a Morning Revival for myself... And while driving back to Kenny's apartment I asked the Lord what was different between this meeting I had just participated in and the meeting back in Miami that I had withdrawn from...

His answer was simple and yet utterly profound...

The Lord spoke into my heart... "Before, you only saw people, but today, you only saw Me."

The tears started again.

And saints... That surely would have been more than enough...

But the Lord had more...

When I got back to the apartment and started looking at the Morning Revival what do you think I found in the front of the book?

"Jacob's dream was a dream of God's goal.
the dream of Bethel,
the dream of the house of God,
which is the church today and
which will consumate in the New Jerusalem
as the eternal dwelling place of God
and His redeemed elect."

It was one of the banners for the summer training Crystallization Study of Genesis.

And was about as concise a definition of the New Jerusalem that you can get.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by aron

...in order to survive in the LSM you have to know nothing. Like one brother said in the Great Rebellion of '89, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand". Or Ed Marks, "I'm a monkey".

aron... I'm not here to contend with you regarding what I "...have to know..." or be in order to "...survive in the LSM...".

Thankfully, I'm not in the "...LSM..." and therefore have no need of surviving in the LSM.

According to scripture...

Being born again of the Spirit, I'm in Christ Jesus.

And my surviving in Christ Jesus is according to His mercy and grace which I receive (as all born again believers in Christ receive) every day.

Let me know if you need me to explain this some more to you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

I'm not in the "...LSM..." and therefore have no need of surviving in the LSM.
According to scripture...
Being born again of the Spirit, I'm in Christ Jesus.
And my surviving in Christ Jesus is according to His mercy and grace which I receive (as all born again believers in Christ receive) every day.
Let me know if you need me to explain this some more to you.

You may not be in the LSM but Ed Marks whose message you seem to have appreciated certainly is. As are the vast majority who get enmeshed in their programme. But you may indeed be one of the few whose garments are not stained. Surely there must be some. ~Rev. 3:4

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

so have no expectation of me doing so and you won't be disappointed... End of story.

Thanks for sharing your story.

One thing that I never understood about the LSM churches was the constant insults of other believers an undercurrent of "degraded Christianity" of those loving the Lord outside of their walls.

I don't sense this from you - instead you have actually appeared to consider those outside of the LSM churches part of the local church. Instead of labeling the LSM as "the way", you seem to admit it is as flawed... if not more flawed then other local churches.

I'm glad you say that you have a, "different way of speaking than that of sticking to the specific line of the Morning Revival topic... Which I have been told can be confusing to some saints." I'm sure this is very refreshing for many truly seeking after the Lord.

What do the others in your church think about you being on this website?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...you seem to admit it is as flawed... if not more flawed then other local churches...

leastofthese...

I'm going to say this to you in love... Please take it as such...

Don't try to place words in my mouth. Doing so is not of the Lord.

The church is of Christ...

The church is the body of Christ...

And Christ is perfect.

Not flawed.

But the church at this time is comprised of Christ as the Head, and Christ in born again humanity that in God's wisdom have been left with our old fallen man for a time (our lifetime on this earth).

In the regenerated spirit of every born again believer in Christ we are the perfect church.

Absolutely flawless.

But in the human faculties of our soul — our mind, emotion, and will — there is still an ongoing struggle related to the process of our soul's perfecting.

And often, every born again believer, in one way or another and to one degree or another, will fall back into the flawed way of our fallen old man who is still — by God's will — with us.

And the result of this is an expression of this flawed way of our fallen old man... As we go through the day.

And this can take place, and does take place, even as we try have a living and being unto Christ.

And all born again believers are guilty of the above.

There is no "...flawed or more flawed..." in the Lord's one church.

There is only the perfect church... And the born again believer who for whatever reason has fallen away into their old fallen man.

And even when this born again believer has fallen away into their old man... They have not lost their reality of being a member of the perfect church that is in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately...

What you have incorrectly suggested that I "...admit..." to is actually a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ.

Instead of holding to scripture regarding what you understand about the reality of the body of Christ... You seem to choose to hold to your natural human rationalizing; as many others do.

Oh for the coming day where we will all be holding to Christ... And Christ alone.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by aron

You may not be in the LSM but Ed Marks whose message you seem to have appreciated certainly is.

Matthew 8:5-10... "And when He entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, beseeching Him... And saying, Lord, my servant is lying in the house paralyzed, terribly tormented... And He said to him, I will come and heal him... But the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not fit for You to enter under my roof; but only speak a word, and my servant will be healed... For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it... Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who followed, Truly I say to you, With no one in Israel have I found such great faith..."

Isn't it wonderful that scripture tells us that great faith can be even be spoken out of an unsaved person.

How much more do you think the Lord is able to bring something good out of a born again believer in Christ.

aron... I wasn't listening to Ed Marks... I was listening to Christ.

Originally Posted by aron

As are the vast majority who get enmeshed in their programme. But you may indeed be one of the few whose garments are not stained. Surely there must be some. ~Rev. 3:4

I'd simply say to you my brother... Look after yourself... And let the Lord look after others.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

In the regenerated spirit of every born again believer in Christ we are the perfect church.

Oh for the coming day where we will all be holding to Christ... And Christ alone.

Thanks Steel.

When you speak of the church in your response, what definition are you using?

Quote from Witness Lee: In the past two years, some have left the genuine local churches and have begun to meet in a divisive way. They may say that they are not a division but are simply a group meeting of the church. However, these are not genuine group meetings but sectarian divisions, because they do not care for the oneness of the Body or for the ground of locality.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

Isn't it wonderful that scripture tells us that great faith can be even be spoken out of an unsaved person.

Great faith. . . unsaved. . .??? Sorry but I have no idea what this means. I thought faith was the way to be saved.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

Great faith. . . unsaved. . .??? Sorry but I have no idea what this means. I thought faith was the way to be saved.

Faith is an enabling gift from God, while deception is a lie willingly received from Lucifer. For some people deception is stronger than faith. It is particularly bad when deceived people end up leading religious movements.

[leastofthese]

U

Originally Posted by Steel

Matthew 8:5-10... "And when He entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, beseeching Him... And saying, Lord, my servant is lying in the house paralyzed, terribly tormented... And He said to him, I will come and heal him... But the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not fit for You to enter under my roof; but only speak a word, and my servant will be healed... For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it... Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who followed, Truly I say to you, With no one in Israel have I found such great faith..."

Isn't it wonderful that scripture tells us that great faith can be even be spoken out of an unsaved person.

How much more do you think the Lord is able to bring something good out of a born again believer in Christ.

aron... I wasn't listening to Ed Marks... I was listening to Christ.



I'd simply say to you my brother... Look after yourself... And let the Lord look after others.

I noticed that you didn’t comment about what others in your church thought about you posting on this forum, any reason?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Quote from Witness Lee: In the past two years, some have left the genuine local churches and have begun to meet in a divisive way. They may say that they are not a division but are simply a group meeting of the church. However, these are not genuine group meetings but sectarian divisions, because they do not care for the oneness of the Body or for the ground of locality.

leastofthese, the last sentence I stress I don't think is fully grasped and understood that brothers and sisters feel bound by the "ground of locality" teaching. Not me personally, but ones I've known virtually my entire life. When it comes down to it, \oneness of the Body is predicated upon Living Stream Ministry publications. You can be living in Wenatchee, Washington or some other town. If there's no LSM affiliated church to meet with it's better to meet at home than to meet "divisively" as it's been taught.
I don't agree with that concept, but that just happens to be where some people are at.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks Steel.

When you speak of the church in your response, what definition are you using?

All who have been born of the Spirit and are therefore in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Quote from Witness Lee: In the past two years, some have left the genuine local churches and have begun to meet in a divisive way. They may say that they are not a division but are simply a group meeting of the church. However, these are not genuine group meetings but sectarian divisions, because they do not care for the oneness of the Body or for the ground of locality.

From Wikipedia...

"Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group. Common examples are denominations of a religion, ethnic identity, class, or region for citizens of a state and factions of a political movement.

The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviours labelled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious, national or political group may believe that their own salvation, or the success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be converted or purged."

If by his use of the phrase "sectarian divisions" Witness Lee meant all who had stopped meeting with the "local church" and started meeting among themselves as another "local church"... Out of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group... Then I would not support his speaking.

I pulled out of meeting with the local church in Miami and would have had no problem meeting with other believers who had also stopped meeting with the local church... Had the Lord led me to do so... And would not have done so with the intent of causing division, but simply because I had no way to continue meeting in the manner I had been meeting in.

And I certainly would not have been doing so because I was not caring for the oneness of the body of Christ...As caring for Christ is to care for the oneness of the body... And I certainly would not have tried to build something for myself, nor stopped holding to the ministry, within the limitations of the situation.

I don't follow men, leastofthese... I follow the Lord.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Steel

From Wikipedia...

"Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group. Common examples are denominations of a religion, ethnic identity, class, or region for citizens of a state and factions of a political movement.

It seems to me that this word in Matt 18 is the inoculation to sectarianism. -- Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Sectarianism is not so much about attaching inferiority to others but superiority to oneself.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

All who have been born of the Spirit and are therefore in Christ Jesus.

I see, that makes sense on the confusion. When I was talking about the LSM churches, I wasn't referring to all those "who have been born of the Spirit..." I was referring to the 501c3 organizations that follow the leadership and publications of the 501c3 Living Stream Ministry.

Witness Lee laid the foundation of his ministry by condemning and lambasting churches that don't follow his ministry, yet you follow him... even though (as you say) it is "a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ". I guess it would be bad enough if it was all talk - but we know from history that Lee backed up his word with action. Members in this forum were there and saw first hand.

As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers. Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality. The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers. You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings... yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers. Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality. The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers. You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings... yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

Many have noted this trend of antagonism towards fellow believers, and incessant judgments. One such observation is quoted below.

Originally Posted by Fuji

Although they always speak of how denominations are divisive, I want to say that for the many, many years that I have been a Christian and have been to 1x churches (No I am not church hopping but it's due to the nature of my work - and by being I mean fellowshipping) in my life I have never EVER seen a church like LC that mocks and belittles other non-LC believers and churches so much as LC does. It is sickening. I really honestly don't know how they can NOT get hurt when they do things like this. LC wants to repeat Nee’s saying, to have a “Normal Christian Life”, but man. When you feel normal to talk crap about other Christians not in your group, it is not normal. I think there is something VERY, VERY wrong in them when they say these things without feeling disturbed or hurt. I for one know Jesus Christ is being hurt when His people are being despised by His own people. I constantly have to share this with my close friends today to heal my wounds.

Let me give you some examples. Almost every time when I go to their meetings , big or small - when we are supposed to share our salvation testimonies, the testimonies shared by them were always not of how they became saved into Christ, but how they became SAVED INTO THE LC CHURCH LIFE. “Wow my previous church is crap! My previous church spiritual view is just so low!”

The incessant drumbeat of negativity, antagonism, and judgment in the LC is poisonous. I know that LC apologists will say the same is true of this forum but what's the solution?

"Christ only Christ" segues neatly into "Christ and the Church" which becomes a cover for the "ministry of the age" which becomes a fallen man, not named Jesus Christ. The antagonism towards others becomes the cover for the sin of the minister. A decoy, a ruse.

Can we see the solution, here? I can. It's so simple and clear that robots can't see it. But once you see it, you can't be a ministry robot, nor a "Witness Lee tape recorder".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers. Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality. The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers. You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings... yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

For years I was numb to the constant denigration of all outside Christians, deluding myself that "brother Lee was just being honest." As long as members remain in the hermetically sealed confines of the LC, this message of condemnation just kept reverberating in our little echo chamber.

One evening it hit me. It popped my bubble. I was basically an old man sitting in a home meeting full of college students. It was a very warm night without A/C. The room was crowded and a young lady, whose family I knew forever, visited from another town. She was more dressed for the beach than a Christian gathering. As she spoke just a few words to the group, out came the usual Christianity "hate" like one would use the filler words "so ..., umm ..., you know what I mean ..."

Like I said, "it hit me" -- this is what we have done to our kids, our next generation. They have learned, like second nature, how to condemn the entire body of Christ, yet many do not even know how to dress appropriately. We taught them how to say big words like "the dispensation of the Triune God in His divine economy!" yet have nearly no respect or love for their brothers or sisters.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I see, that makes sense on the confusion. When I was talking about the LSM churches, I wasn't referring to all those "who have been born of the Spirit..." I was referring to the 501c3 organizations that follow the leadership and publications of the 501c3 Living Stream Ministry.

It seems you are confused... A 501c3 organization can't follow anything... It's just ink on paper that helps people meet certain governmental requirements. Now if you are referring to the people associated with this 501c3 organization... Then be clear an say so... People are just human... Not ink on paper... Which is why people can end up doing human things... Like we all do.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Witness Lee laid the foundation of his ministry by condemning and lambasting churches that don't follow his ministry, yet you follow him...

This is a lie... Witness Lee is dead... And has been dead for 20 years, I couldn't follow him even if I desired to. I guess I could go sit next to his grave — wherever that may be — but that would not be following him... Just sitting next to his dead body that's buried in a grave. Perhaps if you choose to respond to my speaking again... You'll think to be more honest in your doing so.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...even though (as you say) it is "a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ".

Actually... I didn't say that at all. So again you are being dishonest. Let me help you get more clear regarding what I said... It is human rationalizing that is "...a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ."

And here is a copy/paste of my speaking... "Unfortunately... What you have incorrectly suggested that I "...admit..." to is actually a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ. Instead of holding to scripture regarding what you understand about the reality of the body of Christ... You seem to choose to hold to your natural human rationalizing; as many others do. Oh for the coming day where we will all be holding to Christ... And Christ alone."

As I have pointed out in an earlier response to you, leastofthese... You seem to have a problem honesty suggesting what I have said. I'd suggest you try and correct this flaw that is being exposed in your speaking.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...I guess it would be bad enough if it was all talk - but we know from history that Lee backed up his word with action. Members in this forum were there and saw first hand.

I don't doubt it. As I have clearly said in an earlier comment... Scripture tells us that humans are flawed (including both you and me, and those "...in this forum were there and saw first hand...). And, to the best of my ability, and according to the measure of grace I have received from God to do so... I believe what scripture says. Which is why I also try to look forward... Not backward.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers.

There is only one church that is of and in Christ. So there are no "...other churches..." for Witness Lee to condemn. And if you properly understood the reality scripture reveals to us regarding this matter you would know this. And knowing this, you wouldn't speak in and out of your offended feelings the way you do.

Here's what scripture says regarding people speaking... Matthew 12:37... "For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."

If Witness Lee, or anyone else, has spoken in error... Trust that the Lord knows this, and will deal with it accordingly. And we should all... As we should do in all things regarding the Lord... Rejoice in knowing the above regarding the speaking of people... And even ourselves.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality.

I don't think Drake does... I think Drake is trying to help folks be more accurate/honest in their speaking... And do so for their own sake. And according to scripture... Being a little off in your speaking is to not be in God with your speaking. And to not be in God with your speaking is to be in your fallen natural man... Which is certainly not where scripture tells us we should be.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers.

Living Stream Ministry has no "...churches..."... Only God has a church... One church. So again... I would strongly exhort you, for your own sake/salvation (the working out of it) to become clear on this scriptural reality.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings...

On the contrary... I don't "...sit through it in you(r) meeting hall and home meetings..."... I have often openly in meetings — small or large — spoken against falling into the trap of becoming narrow regarding who the members of the one body of Christ are. So again you have spoken in a dishonest manner.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

Again... Witness Lee is dead. Now if you mean question what is siad in his spoken/written ministry... If it comes up and I am led by the Lord to say something against it... I most certainly will.

Again... I serve the Lord... Not a man.

NOTE... Space edited as per UntoHim's request.

[UntoHim]

Note to Steel.

Could you please stop hitting the return button after every sentence. You do not need to make every sentence it's own paragraph. If you try to emphasize every sentence by making it it's own paragraph, it actually has the opposite affect on the readers. I mean it get's real tedious having to scroll through your posts when you do this. Try to compact your posts a little.

Also, please refrain from quoting entire large portions of scripture. We all have Bibles. You can simply quote a small portion, and then if our readers have the time and desire to do so, they can look all the verses up themselves. Finally, please stop misunderstanding on purpose. We all know Witness Lee has been dead for 20 years now. So when someone talks about "following Witness Lee" you know very well what they mean. Don't be so obtuse...trust me...it's not helping your cause any.
-

[Steel]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Also, please refrain from quoting entire large portions of scripture. We all have Bibles. You can simply quote a small portion, and then if our readers have the time and desire to do so, they can look all the verses up themselves.

... Sure... I think it's a habit I developed from all the time I spend writing on many Facebook pages. The comment space is narrow and often points can get lost in the text block. So to help points stand out I use spacing. Over the years I've developed somewhat of a designed style of presenting my written thoughts on Facebook pages so that they stand out among the many comments are often found on these FB threads.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Finally, please stop misunderstanding on purpose. We all know Witness Lee has been dead for 20 years now. So when someone talks about "following Witness Lee" you know very well what they mean. Don't be so obtuse...trust me...it's not helping your cause any.

I have no cause... Other than Christ... And in that it is He who helps me... That reality made clear... Contrary to what you are saying... I believe there is most certainly a deliberate attempt by some to suggest that people who meet with the local church do so because they "...follow Witness Lee..." in order to suggest that we all are given to following a man... And not following the Lord in our regenerated spirit... This is why I counter this speaking by continually stating that Witness Lee is dead.

Why don't you tell the folks who are constantly saying that "...people follow the man, Witness Lee..." to stop saying that, and to speak honestly and properly about the matter. Wouldn't that be more aligned with our Christian calling regarding our speaking?

It would be easy enough for someone to say "...you hold to the teaching (or ministry) of Witness Lee." Which is actually what would be the case. And as such, would indicate that it is not a man that is being followed, but a teaching that is being held to... Which would then point the discussion away from the man, and instead focus on the teaching... Which is what scripture tells us we should be concerned with.

But I understand the need of some to continually try and suggest people follow a man, as doing so better supports their nefarious agenda. And my response to these people doing so will always be to set the record straight regarding what is actually taking place. And I would hope that a discussion that is based on honesty is what you, as the moderator of this website, would be after. Unless of course, I am "...obtuse..." regarding the walk scripture calls believers into.

And... Thank you for allowing me to post without moderation... I appreciate it... mGoing before the Lord regarding your actions was certainly a blessing for me... At first I had the normal knee-jerk reaction offended feeling thoughts... But when I took Him as my peace... I was able to see that your action that He allowed caused me to become more careful in my speaking... And that's always a good thing.

How I love and appreciate — in time — the Lord's working and operating in all that I encounter each day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

I have no cause... Other than Christ... And in that it is He who helps me... That reality made clear... Contrary to what you are saying... I believe there is most certainly a deliberate attempt by some to suggest that people who meet with the local church do so because they "...follow Witness Lee..." in order to suggest that we all are given to following a man... And not following the Lord in our regenerated spirit... This is why I counter this speaking by continually stating that Witness Lee is dead.

Why don't you tell the folks who are constantly saying that "...people follow the man, Witness Lee..." to stop saying that, and to speak honestly and properly about the matter. Wouldn't that be more aligned with our Christian calling regarding our speaking?

It would be easy enough for someone to say "...you hold to the teaching (or ministry) of Witness Lee." Which is actually what would be the case. And as such, would indicate that it is not a man that is being followed, but a teaching that is being held to... Which would then point the discussion away from the man, and instead focus on the teaching... Which is what scripture tells us we should be concerned with.

But I understand the need of some to continually try and suggest people follow a man, as doing so

Unlike you, we have lived in the LC system for decades. WE KNOW THEY ARE FOLLOWING A MAN. They told us they were. We know his name. We watched elders follow him contrary to the Lord and their own conscience.

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better. We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him. Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?" And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits? Just because he did it.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better.

Actually... Concerning me... Based on your own speaking... You obviously don't know better.... But I do understand that you desperately want it to seem that I do, as this would support your position.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him.

No, Ohio... Witness Lee is dead... They can't follow him... See if you can grasp this reality... They follow their own understanding/feelings/preferences/opinions regarding him... And they either do so in the Lord... Or in their natural self... Just the same as it is with you regarding what you follow... And just the same as it is with me regarding what I follow... This is why scripture tells us that God looks at the hearts of men... Because in the hearts of men are our true intentions, which reveal the source we are holding to.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?"

Whoever spends time considering their facing a man is obviously not spending all their time considering their facing the Lord... Which may be a bit of a problem for them... But that's the Lord's business... My business is to make sure I'm considering my facing the Lord at all times.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits?

Old habits are hard to break... You should know that... Just as we all should... But praise the Lord... We are saved, and are being saved.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because he did it.

Nope... Possibly because they, like us all, are susceptible to falling back into our fallen old man. . . . Ohio... A question... Do you believe that God is able to bring good out of that which was meant for evil?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

It seems you are confused...

This is a lie...

You'll think to be more honest in your doing so.

So again you are being dishonest.

You seem to have a problem honesty suggesting what I have said. I'd suggest you try and correct this flaw that is being exposed in your speaking.

And if you properly understood the reality scripture reveals to us regarding this matter you would know this. And knowing this, you wouldn't speak in and out of your offended feelings the way you do.

Being a little off in your speaking is to not be in God with your speaking. And to not be in God with your speaking is to be in your fallen natural man... Which is certainly not where scripture tells us we should be.

I would strongly exhort you, for your own sake/salvation (the working out of it) to become clear on this scriptural reality.

So again you have spoken in a dishonest manner.

wow.

Hey Steel - I'm going to push pause on communicating with you brother. Just because I disagree with you or see things differently does not mean I am being dishonest. I'm not here to convince you of anything and gain nothing from lying.

Your consistent barrage of personal insults to me and other forum members loudly speaks to who you are - and for that I can do nothing but pray for you. You should take a moment to sit quietly before the Lord.

I, for one, can assure you that your loveless, lifeless insults fall at your feet, not mine. I have personal no resentment, nor care, about the words you've shared...but it leaves me saddened for your heart.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

wow... Hey Steel - I'm going to push pause on communicating with you brother.

Since leastofthese is pausing "...on communicating..." with me, I'll respect his desire and not request any response from leastofthese.

But I will take what has been said as an opportunity to speak to those on this thread about my thoughts regarding the points brought up, as I think they touch on the very relevant matter of how we "...communicate..." with each other as born again brothers and sister in Christ Jesus.

Professionally, I've been in "...communication..." for almost 35 years. And I have been quite successful at it because I have the ability to see matters very clearly, in both a common way and from angles others don't normally see, and do so down to the smallest of details.

And I believe this is a gift from God... A gift I apply in my speaking to others regarding the things of God. And as such, I make no apology for it, but I do understand that it can be hard to deal with and over the years I've tried to learn how to temper my speaking with grace by speaking in and out of love. But finding the proper balance between to two is often a work in progress, as speaking to someone involves the second person who has their own way of seeing/receiving what is being said to them.

Human history has fully exposed that "...communication..." between humans is not an easy matter to carry out... And this includes even born again believers... Those of us who have read on many occassions that we are one in Christ Jesus... But do we believe this as we try to communicate with each other... Or are we simply in our individual self as we do so... What should come first... Our own individual views of a matter... Or our oneness with one another in Christ Jesus?

Back in 2001, when I first tried to introduce to various local church groups in Miami, the idea of the OneAmen project I'd been working on, I only really succeeded in introducing myself to the deep, ingrained division that exists within the human aspect of the one body of Christ... The one church of God... And it was a hard matter to realize... Here I was, just four years into my walk with the Lord, coming to see the reality of the oneness of the body of Christ through scripture and the rhema speaking of the Lord... Rejoicing in it... And then being confronted by this deep, ingrained division between believers. And to be clear, this was two years before the Lord brought my wife and myself into contact with the local church and the LSM ministry.

At the time I remember struggling with the matter, wondering why born again believers had to be divided... Especially given that scripture tells us unequivocally that we are one body. Sure, many memebrs... But one body... So I went before the Lord with this matter and eventually came to this scripture verse... 1 Corinthians 12:25... "That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another."

This is what stood out to me... "...no division..." . . . "...have the same care for one another." . . . So scripture is telling us that division comes out of... NOT... having the same care for one another... In the church, each born again believer should give the same care to all the different members... Because a difference in care causes division.

Lord Jesus... Something as small and often overlooked as how we care for one another can lead to division within the human apsect of the one body of Christ... And scripture tells us that there are seven things that God hates... And one of these seven things is "...A false witness who utters lies, And one who injects discord among brothers." — Proverbs 6:19

How can we, as born again believers in Christ, say that we love the Lord, but not love and care for all the different members of His body... Even the uncomely ones? . . . There is no gray area... "There are six things that Jehovah hates; Indeed, seven that are an abomination to His soul: 1, Haughty eyes, 2, a lying tongue, 3, hands that shed innocent blood, 4, a heart that devises wicked schemes, 5, feet that hurry to run to evil, 6, a false witness who utters lies, and 7, one who injects discord among brothers.

Reading the above list, six of the seven can easily be related to each other... But number 3, "...hands that shed innocent blood...", kind of stands out on its own... Yet here's a scripture verse that shines some light on a possible connection... Proverbs 18:21... "Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit." . . . And there are more scripture verses that speak to the "...violence..." that the tongue (our speaking) can cause.

What this scripture tells us is that as born again believers in Christ Jesus we should be super careful in our speaking (writing)... And this is why I tend to be very specific in my fellwoship with others... And my exhortation of others to be the same way. . . . The above being made clear... Let's take a look at some of leastofthese accusations against me...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Just because I disagree with you or see things differently does not mean I am being dishonest.

But I never said nor suggested that disagreeing with me meant that the person who was disagreeing was being dishonest. So what we have above is a bit of a straw man... Which is "...an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." . . . Disagree with me all you want... All I ask is that you be honest in doing so.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I'm not here to convince you of anything and gain nothing from lying.

Again... I never said nor suggested that anyone was here to convince me of anything... But for sure people lie (are dishonest) because they think there is something to be gained from doing so... And we'll see this in the quoted comments below...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your consistent barrage of personal insults to me and other forum members loudly speaks to who you are - and for that I can do nothing but pray for you. You should take a moment to sit quietly before the Lord.

And there it is... The accusation that I consistently barrage people with personal insults.

Is this true... Is all I've spoken on this website in my many recent comments simply a "...consistent barrage of personal insults..." . . . Surely this is easily checked to confirm. And yet, when checked... All that will be confirmed is that the above accusation of leastofthese is not true... As in, it is untrue. . . .
So what then does that make the accusation of leastofthese to be? . . . Honesty? . . . Surely not. . . . But let's continue...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I, for one, can assure you that your loveless, lifeless insults fall at your feet, not mine. I have personal no resentment, nor care, about the words you've shared...but it leaves me saddened for your heart.

So leastofthese may be saddened... But others, by their own words, have been uplifted... What then are we left with? . . . What we have is simply one believer attempting to use inflammatory comments to divide people against each other. . . . And as we've seen in scripture... God hates it.

And just in case some may wonder what the above has to do with "...The local church, the Work and the New Testament Ministry..." (the topic of this thread)... The local church... the Work... And the New Testament Ministry... In their true purpose/expression... Is absolutely about what God loves... And opposes what God hates.

[Ohio]

It seems you are confused...

This is a lie...

You'll think to be more honest in your doing so.

So again you are being dishonest.

You seem to have a problem honesty suggesting what I have said. I'd suggest you try and correct this flaw that is being exposed in your speaking.

And if you properly understood the reality scripture reveals to us regarding this matter you would know this. And knowing this, you wouldn't speak in and out of your offended feelings the way you do.

Being a little off in your speaking is to not be in God with your speaking. And to not be in God with your speaking is to be in your fallen natural man... Which is certainly not where scripture tells us we should be.

I would strongly exhort you, for your own sake/salvation (the working out of it) to become clear on this scriptural reality.

So again you have spoken in a dishonest manner.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

wow.

Hey Steel - I'm going to push pause on communicating with you brother. Just because I disagree with you or see things differently does not mean I am being dishonest. I'm not here to convince you of anything and gain nothing from lying.

Your consistent barrage of personal insults to me and other forum members loudly speaks to who you are - and for that I can do nothing but pray for you. You should take a moment to sit quietly before the Lord.

I, for one, can assure you that your loveless, lifeless insults fall at your feet, not mine. I have personal no resentment, nor care, about the words you've shared...but it leaves me saddened for your heart.

Hi leastofthese, don't take it personally, he treats us all the same way.

He also claims to be "quite a successful and professional communicator."

I'm sure LSM could use his skills.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hi leastofthese, don't take it personally, he treats us all the same way.

Thankfully, anyone who desires to see the actually comment made... And not just the cherry-picked bits and pieces someone may use to troll for a particular reaction... Can simply scroll to my actual comment and know the truth regarding what I said, and the context it was said in.

That's the wonderful thing about online forums... As long as the comments are not deleted or edited... They are right there for all to see.

Praise the Lord.

[UntoHim]

Any and all posts that do not address the topic will be deleted without further notification. Address the issue at hand. Anything personal will be deleted and the poster subject being beaten with a wet noodle.
-

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Steel

At the time I remember struggling with the matter, wondering why born again believers had to be divided... Especially given that scripture tells us unequivocally that we are one body. Sure, many memebrs... But one body... So I went before the Lord with this matter and eventually came to this scripture verse... 1 Corinthians 12:25... "That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another."

This is what stood out to me... "...no division..." . . . "...have the same care for one another." . . . So scripture is telling us that division comes out of... NOT... having the same care for one another... In the church, each born again believer should give the same care to all the different members... Because a difference in care causes division.

Steel, I am in agreement with you here. A start would be to set aside ministry publications. If we take the Bible as our only standard. This is a book in which there should be no divisions.
Your last sentence is something I had noticed years ago. Why is there a difference in care? In the locality I lived as a single brother if you were 18-20 years old there was an abundance of care. Those that were mid-20's and older not so much.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unlike you, we have lived in the LC system for decades. WE KNOW THEY ARE FOLLOWING A MAN. They told us they were. We know his name. We watched elders follow him contrary to the Lord and their own conscience.

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better. We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him. Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?" And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits? Just because he did it.

Ohio,

I believe you when you say you followed a man. That is the problem. And now, because you followed a man you think everyone else does too. You were disappointed and do not understand why everyone else doesn't see it as you do.

Therefore, perhaps you have never known what it is to follow the anointing, a vision, or the Spirit's leading. For if you had, then I am sure you would also allow that when Steel or I say we do not follow a man then you would not object to the concept.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

Thankfully, anyone who desires to see the actually comment made... And not just the cherry-picked bits and pieces someone may use to troll for a particular reaction... Can simply scroll to my actual comment and know the truth regarding what I said, and the context it was said in.

That's the wonderful thing about online forums... As long as the comments are not deleted or edited... They are right there for all to see.

Praise the Lord.

Praying for you Steel. Seek the truth only found in Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I believe you when you say you followed a man. That is the problem. And now, because you followed a man you think everyone else does too. You were disappointed and do not understand why everyone else doesn't see it as you do.

Therefore, perhaps you have never known what it is to follow the anointing, a vision, or the Spirit's leading. For if you had, then I am sure you would also allow that when Steel or I say we do not follow a man then you would not object to the concept.

Drake

Wait a minute. It was WL who said he followed a man. He boasted in following Nee. Many of the Blendeds likewise have boasted in following Lee. So you are now claiming to be some spiritual outlier?

I do for a fact that Midwest LC's had more liberties than others did. You can tell me about "not" following Lee or the Blendeds, but I know better. And I know the games that are played in the Recovery by calling it all "fellowship."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wait a minute. It was WL who said he followed a man. He boasted in following Nee. Many of the Blendeds likewise have boasted in following Lee. So you are now claiming to be some spiritual outlier?

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

Right.

And yet, such an important practice and teaching should be documented. I'd like to read it in context. Must be there. Really.

Let's see it.

Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

I've heard Ron Kangas and Dan Towle (at least) say defiantly in meetings that they are "not ashamed to say they follow a man--Witness Lee."

But where is it printed? Why didn't they print it?

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

How about this?

Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age
Chapter 33
...I consider Watchman Nee to be a unique gift given by the Head to His Body for His recovery in this age. I fully respect him as such a gift. I have the full confidence and assurance that it was absolutely of the Lord that I followed this gift for the Lord's interest in His present move on this earth. I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man --a man that was the unique gift and the seer of the divine visions in this age.

How about the letter of allegiance to Witness Lee in 1986?

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How about this?

Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age
Chapter 33
...I consider Watchman Nee to be a unique gift given by the Head to His Body for His recovery in this age. I fully respect him as such a gift. I have the full confidence and assurance that it was absolutely of the Lord that I followed this gift for the Lord's interest in His present move on this earth. I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man --a man that was the unique gift and the seer of the divine visions in this age.

How about the letter of allegiance to Witness Lee in 1986?

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice.

Good examples, alb.

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ. Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. And yet, such an important practice and teaching should be documented. I'd like to read it in context. Must be there. Really. Let's see it.

As far as "documentation" is concerned, you need to take that up with your superiors at LSM. Remember the testimony of Bill Mallon? He was castigated just for copying his notes of a message in the training.

LSM permits no recording of their meetings, and seriously edits their publications. They have signs on the walls saying no recording devices. So it is quite disingenuous of you to demand any kind of "documentation" from me.

This has always been the kind of "defense" surrogates at LSM use to protect themselves against eyewitnesses who cry out for justice. It's kind of like the defense attorneys in a trial demanding "documentation" from the eye witnesses -- "show me a video, show me a book, show me picture."

Hi Drake, do you, or have you ever, worked for, written for, or ever assisted the Defense and Confirmation Project of the Living Stream Ministry?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I've heard Ron Kangas and Dan Towle (at least) say defiantly in meetings that they are "not ashamed to say they follow a man--Witness Lee."

But where is it printed? Why didn't they print it?

I heard similar comments from Ed Marks and Francis Ball. These things were not said by accident, rather these Blended Brothers were proud and happy to boast in following Witness Lee.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

Steel, I am in agreement with you here. A start would be to set aside ministry publications. If we take the Bible as our only standard. This is a book in which there should be no divisions.
Your last sentence is something I had noticed years ago. Why is there a difference in care? In the locality I lived as a single brother if you were 18-20 years old there was an abundance of care. Those that were mid-20's and older not so much.

Terry... It's taken the Lord twenty years to get me to where I am today regarding how I see this, and other matters, in Him. From my own experience I can say that we humans are a very hard bunch of created beings... We love ourselves even when we think we are loving the Lord.

In Leviticus scripture speaks about the sin offering becoming ashes, and in the LSM ministry we read that believers, as we experience the work of the cross in our daily lives, are taking a way that is akin to that of the sin offering, and becoming in a sense, ashes ourselves. And this is aligned with what scripture tells us regarding what John the Baptist said in John 3:30... "He must increase, but I must decrease.". And we see this matter spoken to throughout scripture.

Why did Moses need forty years out in the desert? Forty years that eventually brought him to a point where he was only contemplating his uselessness and his death. And this, according to scripture, is what God saw as being necessary for Moses to experience in order to properly care for those God would have him lead out of Egypt.

What is, for believers, the reality of "...caring..." for each other in this new testament age? . . . Perhaps it's helping to lead each other out of any aspect of Egypt we each might be in... Hebrews 3:13... "But exhort one another each day, as long as it is called "today,'' lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."

And what does the above have to do with 18-20 year old believers, versus those 20 and upwards? . . . Perhaps younger believers are more susceptible to "...the deceitfulness of sin."

But I fully believe, and this because of my own experience, that all the saints need to be watched over and cared for... And that if this is lost... To any degree... There will be, as scripture tells us, related division within the body of believers.

But let me also say this... Again from my own experience... Caring for others is not so easy even if we have the heart to... As those we desire to care for often have their own issues that may make caring for them difficult... Not because the care isn't being offered, but because there is a rejecting of the care being offerend.

This is not such an easy matter to bring into a proper standing before the Lord... I used to think it should be, but know better now... And what is required is our turning to the Lord and taking Him as our everything... Even as our caring for others. And as I know, and I'm sure others also know... Turning to the Lord is often a struggle... Until we become desperate that is.

How desperate are we regarding seeing and abiding in the oneness of the body that is in Christ Jesus?

Now, will setting aside all ministry and only holding to what is revealed in scripture be what saves us? . . . Surely we know from scripture itself that tehre is a need for ministry, as we're told that God gave us apostles, prophets, teachers, etc... For this very purpose. . . . In fact... I think that God has made it so that there will never be the completed expression of the church apart from "...the operation in the measure of each one part..." becoming our (believers) desire/reality.

For me... Scripture reveals God... And therefore reveals the standard of God... But scripture tells us that God desires His standard be expressed in and through humanity... And that this is accomplished by our caring for God, and by extension, caring for the things/way of God... Which must certainly include He Himself giving us "...apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,... For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,..."

And if so... The question becomes one of how do we know who these apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers, etc. are?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Praying for you Steel. Seek the truth only found in Jesus.

Here's some truth I often seek...

Matthew 6:5-6... "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners, so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward in full... But you, when you pray, enter into your private room, and shut your door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

And, inkeeping with the topic of this thread... Here is the related ministry footnoes... "Prayer that seeks man's praise may gain a reward from men, but it will not receive an answer from the Father; thus, it is vain prayer."

And I'm open to discussing the above ministry speaking.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good examples, alb.

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ. Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

Drake, you equivocate here (as usual.) No one is saying that you should not believe or follow the teachings of WL from the Bible that Jesus is Lord, our Savior, etc. under the anointing of the Spirit. All LC members have the liberty to do that.

But when WL covers up immorality, abuse, financial crimes, etc. of high ranking officials and family members in his ministry, and the Blended Brothers are still following a man, then we have problems here. These brothers then were forced to decide between Lee's words and the teachings of the Bible, and decide between Lee himself and the Lord Jesus.

And these bad choices thrust upon the body of Christ were what led decent men of God like John Ingalls to leave.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Drake

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

If only this were true of believers who are yet to be fully perfected... Even Paul undersood the pitfall of this thinking, and even spoke to it in his speaking in his 1 Corinthians epistles.

After seeing the Lord in His glory... Isaiah saw the true condition of himself... And this is the way we should all take, so as not to think we are more able than we actually are.

Originally Posted by Drake

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

Yes... But scripture doesn't tell us to look away unto "...men..." . . . And scripture doesn't tell us to behold and reflect "...men..." . . . No matter if they are a gift of God to men.

Doesn't scripture tells us that it is better humble ourselves and think that we are not able, than to think we are able in ourselves.

Originally Posted by Drake

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ.

No.

(Sorry, UntoHim... But my above response required its own line for emphasis.)

We have been given the Spirit within us for the purpose of being built up in Christ so that the corporate body may be built up in and through the building up of Christ in us by the Spirit.

The work of the ministry — which includes those who minister this ministry — is to turn us to our regenerated spirit so that we realize what God has already accomplished within us... And that we are able/empowered in and through what God has accomplished within us — in our regenerated spirit... To be built up with this reality in our human faculties (our soul... mind, emotion, will)... So that we can outwardly expressed this reality in our daily living and being as we go through our earthly life.

I have no interest whatsoever in seeing/following Witness Lee, or any other man... I only want to see and follow the Lord... And to do that, according to scripture... I only need to see, follow, and realize the Lord... And I absolutely exhort others to take the same way.

Originally Posted by Drake

Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

That, unfortunately, sounds a bit like what Witness Lee said is the reality found in the growing of a beard.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, you equivocate here (as usual.) No one is saying that you should not believe or follow the teachings of WL from the Bible that Jesus is Lord, our Savior, etc. under the anointing of the Spirit. All LC members have the liberty to do that.

But when WL covers up immorality, abuse, financial crimes, etc. of high ranking officials and family members in his ministry, and the Blended Brothers are still following a man, then we have problems here. These brothers then were forced to decide between Lee's words and the teachings of the Bible, and decide between Lee himself and the Lord Jesus.

And these bad choices thrust upon the body of Christ were what led decent men of God like John Ingalls to leave.

Ohio,

Let's see where we agree and where we disagree.

Your post above suggests that you agree there was an anointing in Brother Lee's teachings and that to follow those is fine with you as it is with me.

Your objection concerns how the situation with PL was handled by Brother Lee and the leaders in the Lord's Recovery. You believe that how that was handled caused decent men like John Ingalls to leave.

Agree with that summary so far?

If so, where we part company is what you and I apparently do with that information. You had expectations and your disappointment caused you to leave. Perhaps you were a decent man also and could not tolerate what you deemed mishandling and/or unrighteous behavior. On the other hand, I do not place my trust in man, any man, and do not follow a man. When I say I follow the anointing I mean an anointing applied not an anointing in the air. Of course, the gifts given to the Body are anointed but it is not necessarily permanent. It is wrong to think once anointed always anointed.

Using Aaron's rod as an example, it was a dead stick in and of itself. Yet, because God selected Aaron his rod issued a manifestation of life with blossoms. Everyone who saw Aaron's rod knew by its budding he was selected by God. Apart from that Aaron was just a dead dog, a dead stick, like every person with a rod sitting next to his. As we all are. Aaron's ministry and service was based on the resurrection life (indicated in the budding of his rod). Was Aaron perfect? No, not at all. Did he makes mistakes? Yes, he did and one cost him the entry into the land of Canaan and he died on Mt. Hor never entering in. This was the Lord's judgement, yet his error did not negate his ministry and his son Eleazar carried it forward afterward. Same with Moses, his mistake of not sanctifying God in front of the assembly by striking the rock in anger prevented his entry into the good land... and yet, the water still flowed forth meaning the consequences of his mistake did not negate his ministry though it did affect his reward of the good land.

These two examples convey my thoughts as applied to this topic in this way. First, for me, and my experience, the hundreds of books and thousands of messages full of resurrection life are the budding of the rod. I do not look at the stick... I look at the life issuing from the otherwise dead stick. Secondly, in spite of mistakes, mishandling, errors in judgement, nevertheless water still flowed from the rock. I focus on the water flowing from the rock and God will judge the servant and how that servant represented God or not. Through God's servant the children of Israel were delivered from Egypt, the commandments were given, they were led into successful battle, they were supplied manna and water for forty years.. and though he made a mistake is striking the rock in anger, water still flowed.... but, does his error in judgement negate all his service? No, it did not. Some things are better left to God's righteous hand. Let Him judge his own. Follow the budding rod on the water from the Rock.

That is where we differ, Ohio. Please share your thoughts.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio, Let's see where we agree and where we disagree.

Your post above suggests that you agree there was an anointing in Brother Lee's teachings and that to follow those is fine with you as it is with me.

Your objection concerns how the situation with PL was handled by Brother Lee and the leaders in the Lord's Recovery. You believe that how that was handled caused decent men like John Ingalls to leave. Agree with that summary so far?

The anointing of the Spirit is on many ministers of the Lord. There were times when WL was anointed, definitely. But that was not the case towards the end of his ministry.

My objection concerns all the unrighteousness at LSM. This forum addresses it all. Most troubling for me was all the corruption, abuses, unrighteousness, and divisive activities surrounding the quarantines of the late 1980's and 2000's in the Midwest.

Originally Posted by Drake

If so, where we part company is what you and I apparently do with that information. You had expectations and your disappointment caused you to leave. Perhaps you were a decent man also and could not tolerate what you deemed mishandling and/or unrighteous behavior. On the other hand, I do not place my trust in man, any man, and do not follow a man. When I say I follow the anointing I mean an anointing applied not an anointing in the air. Of course, the gifts given to the Body are anointed but it is not necessarily permanent. It is wrong to think once anointed always anointed.

Sure I had "expectations" that certain men of God would behave themselves and act righteously, especially when they daily berated the rest of Christianity for doing the same things. Are you serious here?

How can you even fellowship with liars, backstabbers, railers, deceitful and divisive, false brothers? Is that what the Apostles would do? Did either Jesus, John, Paul, or Peter tell us that we should never be bothered when our leaders actively deceive us?

Since you don't "put your trust in man, any man," then why trust the teachings of WL and the Blendeds?

[Drake]

-1

Ohio,

If I thought these brothers were all the evil things you claim then of course I would not have fellowship with them. But I do not see them that way at all, not even close.

Let the Lord deal with His servants, He knows all things of the heart. Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life. If they are wrong, you also are wrong now too. Yours is not a service to God for it is His enemy that rails and slanders God's children. You may justify your behavior but God knows our true condition. All reasoning will fail before Him.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

If I thought these brothers were all the evil things you claim then of course I would not have fellowship with them. But I do not see them that way at all, not even close.

Let the Lord deal with His servants, He knows all things of the heart. Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life. If they are wrong, you also are wrong now too. Yours is not a service to God for it is His enemy that rails and slanders God's children. You may justify your behavior but God knows our true condition. All reasoning will fail before Him.

Drake

Let the Lord deal with His servants? Lee condemned "poor, poor, Christianity" for decades. Why didn't any of you inform him of this advice? Why did you not stand up and tell him, "Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life!" Of course, we know why. And we know what would happen to you.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let the Lord deal with His servants? Lee condemned "poor, poor, Christianity" for decades. Why didn't any of you inform him of this advice? Why did you not stand up and tell him, "Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life!" Of course, we know why. And we know what would happen to you.

That's very true, and a very relevant question.

But to properly fellowship on it, it would be best if all had a clear view of just what Christianity is.

Here's my understanding... Christian...ity is exactly what the word define... Something that is out of Christian... A human endeavor.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let the Lord deal with His servants?

Yes. Let the Lord deal with His servants.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Steel

That's very true, and a very relevant question.

But to properly fellowship on it, it would be best if all had a clear view of just what Christianity is.

Here's my understanding... Christian...ity is exactly what the word define... Something that is out of Christian... A human endeavor.

That's one definition. But not necessarily THE definition. "Christianity" also means the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history. It's just a term. It can mean several things. What's important is how the person who uses it means it. It seems unreasonable and naive to say "Christianity" can only mean one thing and you get to define for everyone what that is.

In all communication it's best to try to truly understand what the other person means by his words rather than putting meaning in his mouth by interpreting his words in ways he did not intend.

Certainly there is God's work and there is man's labor apart from God. But calling some work "Christianity" does not make it fleshly, any more than calling it "God's Recovery" makes it spiritual. What matters is not what we call it, but what it is.

It seems the starting point for those in the LCM is to discount that God is doing anything worthwhile outside their walls. It's hard to take seriously people who cannot recognize that he is indeed doing many great things outside the LCM. The idea that what's going on with one's particular group is God's bestest is a deception that is not unique to the LCM. And, as has been pointed out many times, history has not been kind to those groups who assumed such an attitude.

They do this by using word definitions in certain strategic ways, not by observing spiritual realities. Example: "Christianity" is man's endeavor without God. Therefore, anything in "Christianity" is vain. But we are not vain because we are not "Christianity." Ultimately, "Christianity" to them means "everyone and everything but us."

All that is not about spiritual realities. It's simply about using convenient word definitions to aggrandize oneself and discredit others. It's a neat, but ultimately deceiving, trick.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's one definition. But not necessarily THE definition. "Christianity" also means the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history. It's just a term. It can mean several things. What's important is how the person who uses it means it. It seems unreasonable and naive to say "Christianity" can only mean one thing and you get to define for everyone what that is.

In all communication it's best to try to truly understand what the other person means by his words rather than putting meaning in his mouth by interpreting his words in ways he did not intend.

Certainly there is God's work and there is man's labor apart from God. But calling some work "Christianity" does not make it fleshly, any more than calling it "God's Recovery" makes it spiritual. What matters is not what we call it, but what it is.

It seems the starting point for those in the LCM is to discount that God is doing anything worthwhile outside their walls. It's hard to take seriously people who cannot recognize that he is indeed doing many great things outside the LCM. The idea that what's going on with one's particular group is God's bestest is a deception that is not unique to the LCM. And, as has been pointed out many times, history has not been kind to those groups who assumed such an attitude.

They do this by using word definitions in certain strategic ways, not by observing spiritual realities. Example: "Christianity" is man's endeavor without God. Therefore, anything in "Christianity" is vain. But we are not vain because we are not "Christianity." Ultimately, "Christianity" to them means "everyone and everything but us."

All that is not about spiritual realities. It's simply about using convenient word definitions to aggrandize oneself and discredit others. It's a neat, but ultimately deceiving, trick.

Maybe it's Christendom rather than Christianity that is the problem. Here is a quote from the publisher. I have enjoyed the book.


"Christendom, according to Malcolm Muggeridge in this fiery book, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom, on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, is subject to decay and eventual desolation. In this book Muggeridge perceptively explores the downfall of Christendom, indicating some of the contributing factors to its collapse."

About the Author
Malcolm Muggeridge (1903–1990) was a British journalist and prolific author. The End of Christendom.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe it's Christendom rather than Christianity that is the problem. Here is a quote from the publisher. I have enjoyed the book.

"Christendom, according to Malcolm Muggeridge in this fiery book, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom, on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, is subject to decay and eventual desolation. In this book Muggeridge perceptively explores the downfall of Christendom, indicating some of the contributing factors to its collapse."

About the Author
Malcolm Muggeridge (1903–1990) was a British journalist and prolific author. The End of Christendom.

But that's not the only definition of "Christendom." The term originally meant all the political areas of the world (i.e. Europe) that were Christian. I.e. The Holy Roman Empire.

I don't see a constructive point to such labels. However well-intended they may be, they always seem to end up being used by one part of the Lord's Body to bash another.

[Ohio]

And every long term ex-member is convinced not just "Christianity" but also "religion" is so evil, remember "Christ vs. Religion?"

Actually the Lord Jesus never was against religion. Not the Jewish religion, neither the Christian religion. It was all a "bogey man" created by Lee. The Bible never says it. Actually Jesus was against hypocrisy, and that which is recorded in the scripture.

Lee's goal was to convince all members that all religion is evil, and it even killed our Savior. Next step is to convince them that everything outside of the Recovery is religion, and there is no religion inside the Recovery.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And every long term ex-member is convinced not just "Christianity" but also "religion" is so evil, remember "Christ vs. Religion?"

I was convinced of this before I was four years into my walk with the Lord... Which was before I came into contact with the local church or Witness Lee's ministry... Shoot... Even the pastor of the small congregation I met with had similar feelings... And my experience with other believers in many other congregations is that they have similar feelings also, but chose, to one degree or another, to hide them behind some kind of fake disposition.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Actually the Lord Jesus never was against religion. Not the Jewish religion, neither the Christian religion. It was all a "bogey man" created by Lee. The Bible never says it. Actually Jesus was against hypocrisy, and that which is recorded in the scripture.

This is absolutely untrue, if scripture is to be believed.

Scripture clearly tells us that God had no desire to make people turn to any sort of religion... To eat from the tree of life is quite the opposite of the folly that human religion is... Life has no need of human religion... Life simply does what is contained within it.

And to say that the thought that "...the Lord Jesus never was against religion was..."...a "bogey man" created by Lee..." is just silly.

But yes... Scripture does tell us that the Lord is against hypocrisy... Including that expressed in your above speaking.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee's goal was to convince all members that all religion is evil, and it even killed our Savior. Next step is to convince them that everything outside of the Recovery is religion, and there is no religion inside the Recovery.

Good thing that we have the Spirit in our regenerated spirit then... The Spirit who brings us into all truth that is.

And in what ministry did I hear/read about this... Hmmm...

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's one definition.

Which is why I made it clear that what I said was my own take on it.

Originally Posted by Igzy

But not necessarily THE definition.

Well... Based on my own studies regarding the matter, as well as a bit of understanding of English grammar... I'm clear on how I came to my conclusion regarding teh definition of teh word "Christianity", but I'm surely open to reading what you think it is...

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Christianity" also means...

Okay... "...also means..." . . . So you are saying that there are multiple meanings related to the word "Christianity"... Of which the one I gave is valid... Cool... Let's see what else you think the word "Christianity"... "...also means..."...

Originally Posted by Igzy

"...the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history. It's just a term. It can mean several things.

Absolutely... As it is with many words... And these days, this it seems, can change almost daily with many of these words.

But regarding the word "Christianity", whether it defines "...the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history..."... At the base of all these definitions is the source out of which these definitions come... Meaning... When people use the word "Christianity" when referencing "...the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history..." are they doing out of their view of Christ... Or out of their view of the people related to "...the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history..."?

Can you not see the difference, Igzy?

I surely hope you can... As this is central to why in God's view, humanity needs salvation... Which is what started all this "Christian" stuff to begin with.

Originally Posted by Igzy

What's important is how the person who uses it means it.

If by "...means it..." you mean the source out of which the person is speaking it... Then absolutely.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It seems unreasonable and naive to say "Christianity" can only mean one thing and you get to define for everyone what that is.

But I never said or suggested that... I simply present my take on it.

Originally Posted by Igzy

In all communication it's best to try to truly understand what the other person means by his words rather than putting meaning in his mouth by interpreting his words in ways he did not intend.

As someone who has spenty thirty+ years as a professional in the communication field... I can say that in a natural, practical sense, it certainly seems that way.

But my experience has shown that people often have little clue as to what they actually are trying to say... Much less the source out of which they're saying it... But we, as scripture says... Must always be listening... Being clear that the Lord can choose to speak through anyone... Or even anything.

Certainly there is God's work and there is man's labor apart from God. But calling some work "Christianity" does not make it fleshly, any more than calling it "God's Recovery" makes it spiritual. What matters is not what we call it, but what it is.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It seems the starting point for those in the LCM is to discount that God is doing anything worthwhile outside their walls.

Which seems a bit odd... Seeing that many got their start (including myself) in the Lord, outside of local church meetings.

But then, humans are like that, aren't we... Very short memory... And very much into going along according to a narrow view.

Thank you Lord that we will all one day be absolutely saved out of this... And by "...all...", I'm including you and I, Igzy.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's hard to take seriously people who cannot recognize that he is indeed doing many great things outside the LCM. The idea that what's going on with one's particular group is God's bestest is a deception that is not unique to the LCM. And, as has been pointed out many times, history has not been kind to those groups who assumed such an attitude.

Thankfully... We can rest assured that the Lord knows all that is going on in His one church that He alone is building... And that still being on the throne... He alone is in control of it all.

Originally Posted by Igzy

They do this by using word definitions in certain strategic ways, not by observing spiritual realities. Example: "Christianity" is man's endeavor without God. Therefore, anything in "Christianity" is vain. But we are not vain because we are not "Christianity." Ultimately, "Christianity" to them means "everyone and everything but us."

Scripture is clear... God accepts no mixture... And from my own experience... Christianity is a mixture... And therefore not acceptable to God in any way shape or form.

But then again... God never said anything about desiring a human religion of any type... Pure or mixed... Scripture tells us that God is after His Son living in humanity, and being expressed through humanity... And that this Christ living in and through humanity is what is actually the reality of His builded church... And not some human contrived institution... No matter how focused on God it may be.

Originally Posted by Igzy

All that is not about spiritual realities. It's simply about using convenient word definitions to aggrandize oneself and discredit others. It's a neat, but ultimately deceiving, trick.

It might just be... But again... Scripture tells us that God can take that which was meant for evil and bring about good... So I'm good just trusting Him to do just that... In all circumstances and situations... Well... To be honest, it's a work in progress... But also my hope.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe it's Christendom rather than Christianity that is the problem. Here is a quote from the publisher. I have enjoyed the book.


"Christendom, according to Malcolm Muggeridge in this fiery book, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom, on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, is subject to decay and eventual desolation. In this book Muggeridge perceptively explores the downfall of Christendom, indicating some of the contributing factors to its collapse."

About the Author
Malcolm Muggeridge (1903–1990) was a British journalist and prolific author. The End of Christendom.

That's interesting... As I believe Lee puts it the other way around... Christendom, not being a mixture, is of Christ... Christianity, being a mixture, isn't of Christ.

Adding "en" to a word can mean that one element of the word is what the whole word defines... Which I think is the case with the word "Christendom"... Meaning... This particular judgement... "...dom..."... has Christ in it... "Christ... en...dom"... Christ in His judgement.

Which is similar to the word "Christian"... Which means that the person the word is being applied to is off Christ... "Christ...ian".

But with the "ity" suffix things change a bit... As the use if the "ity" at the end of the word "Christian" tells us that what is being referenced is related to the "Christian"... And not just Christ.

Which sounds like it should be fine... And would be... If the "Christian" was fully perfected in Christ and therefore only expressed Christ... But we know from scripture, and from our own experience, that is is not the case... The "Christian" certainly expresses a whole lot of the fallen old man that is in each of us... And as a result... When we look at "Christian...ity..." what we see is the expression of the human who is still yet to be fully perfected.

One day, there will be a "Christianity" that is perfect... Because only Christ will be seen in and through humanity... But this is not yet the case... And as such, what we today refer to as "Christianity", and have been referring to as "Christianity" for a very long time... Is not only Christ expressed in and through humanity... But is a mixture of fallen humanity and perhaps a certain measure of Christ.

But this mixture, scripture tells us, is absolutely unacceptable to God... And therefore, should be absolutely unacceptable to us.

Now, being clear regarding the above... How we go about expressing this reality is another matter.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

However well-intended they may be, they always seem to end up being used by one part of the Lord's Body to bash another.

That's not because of the words used... It's because of the lack of perfection in those using the words... And even those hearing/reading the words.

[Cal]

Steel,

Thanks for the reply. Although I understand the desire to answer each point with a quote, it quickly chops a thread up into pieces and makes it hard to manage. So forgive me if I choose to paraphrase your points in a narrative rather than quoting directly. I can't multitask like some people can.

First, if you are an expert in communication then you should know there is an accepted form of written grammar. And your use of ellipses (...) does not fit into that form. I honestly don't know what you are trying to convey by them. Do they mean "pause and think about this?" Do they mean, "I have more to say about this but don't have the time?" Anyway, they don't help your communication and are hard on the eyes, in my humble opinion. No offense, really, but I don't get them.

You'll find I'm pretty straightforward, but fair.

As for your question about how people view Christianity, I realize that there are things that are "Christ" and things that are not Christ. What God hasn't given me the wisdom for is to be the overall judge of what those things are. If I hear of a church on the other side of the country that has a music ministry with a banjo I can't determine that is or is not Christ. And neither can anyone else. I have a hard enough time determining what's Christ in me. I don't have the bandwidth, nor the commission, to police the rest of the Church.

As for God not accepting "mixture," I think that is a naive statement, which again seems to have the intent of discounting people you have judged are less holy than they should be. As if God made you the judge.

The problem is, we are all mixed. Me, you, ABC Community Church and the local church you meet with. We are mixed because we are still fallen. We are a work in progress. But God still accepts us. That's what GRACE means. So if you take your statement to the extreme, which I think you did, you end up saying that God doesn't accept anything, which denies grace.

I don't think you or anyone else is discerning enough to know precisely all the time what is Christ and what isn't, in yourself, let alone anyone else. We just act in faith to the best of our ability and let God correct us going forward. The Pharisees thought Jesus was mixed. But the fact was they appointed themselves the mixture police and were judging the only truly unmixed person who ever lived. Kind of funny when you think about it.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Anyway, they don't help your communication and are hard on the eyes, in my humble opinion. No offense, really, but I don't get them.

Noted... I'll see what I can do... And i the mean time... As I continue to perfect my writing... Try and bear with me... You seem to be understanding what I write fairly well.

As for how you present what I write... Just try not to cut it up in a way that causes readers to lose the original context... As that would be misleading... And we don't want that to happen, do we.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You'll find I'm pretty straightforward, but fair.

I trust the Lord. Beyond Him... I trust the Lord.

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for your question about how people view Christianity, I realize that there are things that are "Christ" and things that are not Christ. What God hasn't given me the wisdom for is to be the overall judge of what those things are. If I hear of a church on the other side of the country that has a music ministry with a banjo I can't determine that is or is not Christ. And neither can anyone else. I have a hard enough time determining what's Christ in me. I don't have the bandwidth, nor the commission, to police the rest of the Church.

I have actually stood on a stage with Benny Hinn as He carried out his folly ministry in front of thousands on Christian believers from all different types of congregations (another story)... And I've been sitting at the front table at a Creflo Dollar meeting, where he was just a few feet away, carrying out his folly ministry, while walking up and down doing a type of dance on money that hundreds of people had come up to the stage and thrown at it (yet another story)... I would never tells another believer to give themselves to what I saw... And I would certainly, with the Lord's leading, speak against it in very strong terms.

And yet... When my wife and I were newly married we would watch TBN together, and often be blessed by some of what we heard on it... But that season ended within a short space of time

Go figure.

This is why I've come to know that it is safest to simply remain in the Lord as best we can at all times.

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for God not accepting "mixture," I think that is a naive statement, which again has the intent of discounting people you have judged are less holy than they should be. As if God made you the judge.

But no matter how much you try to twist what I said... The words are right there for all to see... That I didn't judge anyone... Which exposes you through your own spoken words.

Christianity is a mixture because it is out of humanity... No ifs or buts about it... Only Christ is pure... No human is pure... And we can go to scripture regarding this truth if you are not clear about this.

This is not me judging anyone... It is simply me stating what scripture clearly says... And if you have a problem with it... Go take it up with the One who inspired those who wrote scripture to write what they wrote... I'm simply speaking what scripture says... As you, being a born again believer in Christ, should also choose to do.

Now if you think that I have misunderstood what scripture says about this matter... Then please, let's fellowship about scripture regarding this matter.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The problem is, we are all mixed. Me, you, ABC Community Church and the local church you meet with.

That's what I've already said.

But let's keep this little factoid in mind... It is God who has chosen to allow this to be as it is... God chose to leave us with our old fallen man for a time... And therefore... Perhaps we could fellowship on why God chose to do this.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We are mixed because we are still fallen. We are a work in progress. But God still accepts us.

Not so fast, Igzy... Scripture says nothing about God accepting us in our old fallen man... God accepts us only... In Christ Jesus... In fact... It is Christ Jesus, whom we as born again believers are brought into, that God is accepting... Let's be very clear regarding that reality of our salvation.

And why does God accept us in when we are in Christ...

2 Corinthians 5:17... "So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new."

Because in God's eyes... In Christ, we are "...a new creation..." . . . "...The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new."

You want to be acceptable to God... Be found in Christ... And that is the crux of our salvation... Anything else is akin to believing a lie.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's what GRACE means.

Well... No... Actually... It isn't.

Grace, regarding the salvation of fallen humanity, is defined in Romans 5:8... "But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

The old creation was terminated with the death of Jesus on the cross... And nothing of the old creation came out in His resurrection... Now we can look around us and think this isn't the case... But the truth of what we are seeing is that it is all already terminated and what we are seeing is it passing away... Like the death throes of an already dead creature.

If you want to find/see something that is living... The only way to see/find this is to find/look at a born again believer who is abiding in Christ... Everything else is just terminated nothingness in God's eyes.

"...It is finished..."

And by grace... We live on in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Igzy

So if you take your statement to the extreme, which I think you did, you end up saying that God doesn't accept anything, which denies grace.

I am a product of God's grace... And though I stumble in many, many things... I hope I would never deny this... regarding myself, or anyone else who has experienced what I have in Him.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think you or anyone else is discerning enough to know precisely all the time what is Christ and what isn't, in yourself, let alone anyone else.

If you read other comments that I've made on the threads of this website you will see that I openly said as much... Without being asked to.

But... Knowing what a mixture is doesn't mean that I am judging anyone regarding their person... And if what you say is true... Then in your own words you have judged others as well by saying... "We are mixed because we are still fallen. We are a work in progress." . . . But I certainly didn't take your speaking to mean that... Why then would you think to do so with my speaking?

Originally Posted by Igzy

We just act in faith to the best of our ability and let God correct us going forward.

Amen... Now can you have the above disposition regarding people like Witness Lee and those involved with LSM and the local churches? . . . And will you not be offended by them as they try to do exactly what you say you're trying to do?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Steel

But no matter how much you try to twist what I said... The words are right there for all to see... That I didn't judge anyone... Which exposes you through your own spoken words.

I don't think I "twisted" what you were saying. Maybe I misunderstood you. It's probably the ellipses that are throwing me off.

If you are simply trying to say that there is a reality where we are all perfect, but we don't always live in it, then I agree (in a qualified manner).

The problem I've seen with people in the Local Church Movement is that they tend to play both sides of this. They accuse those "in Christianity" of being mixed, but suggest that those in the LCM are pure, or at least more pure, because they are "the Church."

But that's naive because by any reasonable definition we are all in the Church (the pure spotless Bride) and we are all in Christianity (God plus all our baggage).

We are all the Church and we are all Christianity. All at the same time. Just like the Church in Corinth was all messed up, and still God's church.

I don't agree that God accepts only Christ, in the way you seem to mean it. He accepts us because we are identified with Christ, but we are not Christ in the absolute sense Lee meant. I don't think that is good teaching.

And I still think my definition of grace is accurate. It's my experience. God is able to have fellowship with me even in my imperfections. If I had to be perfect (Christ) before I could talk to him, we'd never talk. I'm becoming more like Christ all the time. But I'm not Christ and never will be. I just don't agree with that way of expressing things anymore. I think Lee and Nee were off on that.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Steel

Amen... Now can you have the above disposition regarding people like Witness Lee and those involved with LSM and the local churches? . . . And will you not be offended by them as they try to do exactly what you say you're trying to do?

Oh, I certainly don't expect anyone to be perfect. You don't expect of others what you can't produce in yourself.

My problem with the LCM is not general imperfection. It's specific behavior. In particular, abuse of authority. This is intertwined with false teachings used to control the membership, like the local ground, the MOTA and the idea of God's true move being unique to one movement of man. All these are used to control membership in an abusive way.

I still appreciate and enjoy a lot of things I got from the LCM, but they do not excuse nor make up for the grievous errors of abuse that checker the LCM's history.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Oh, I certainly don't expect anyone to be perfect. You don't expect of others what you can't produce in yourself.

Wonderful... Now try and have a living and being that expresses this lack of expectation in others ability/capacity.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My problem...

And there it is... You going back on what you just claimed for yourself... If you're in Christ... What problem can you have?

Originally Posted by Igzy

...with the LCM is not general imperfection. It's specific behavior. In particular, abuse of authority. This is intertwined with false teachings used to control the membership, like the local ground, the MOTA and the idea of God's true move being unique to one movement of man. All these are used to control membership in an abusive way.

Last I saw... People were not imprisoned by any LCM... So what then is the true reality of the things you have referenced as being the source of your problem (which, BTW, are really not the source of your problem... But that's for a different thread)... What really keeps people holding to what you see as being that which controls "...membership in an abusive way..."?

Originally Posted by Igzy

...I still appreciate and enjoy a lot of things I got from the LCM, but they do not excuse nor make up for the grievous errors of abuse that checker the LCM's history.

Has anyone tried to barter these things that you "...still appreciate and enjoy..." that you "...got from the LCM..." for your ignoring/disregarding/excusing/making up for "...the grievous errors of abuse that checker the LCM's history"?

At the beginning of your comment you say that you know that no one is perfect... And that your expectations of people reflect this... But at the end you bring in what seems like a limitation to what you first said... Do you hold to some sort of line regarding your lack of expectations of imperfect people... In your thinking, are imperfect people only imperfect in certain things, but should be/are perfect in other things?... What exactly are you saying regarding your expectations of imperfect people?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Steel

At the beginning of your comment you say that you know that no one is perfect... And that your expectations of people reflect this... But at the end you bring in what seems like a limitation to what you first said...

There is a point where each of us feel compelled to speak out against a wrong.

That is different than being picky about people's imperfections.

If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't be trying to correct anyone yourself. If you do then your last post is superfluous.

I don't think you can categorize the LCM authority abuses under the heading of "Oh, no one's perfect."

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There is a point where each of us feel compelled to speak out against a wrong.

Unfortunately... And usually do so in and out of our fallen natural man as we prefer to do so rather than take the way of the cross.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That is different than being picky about people's imperfections.

Come on now... You're not perfect... Or are yo trying to say that you've been perfected in not being preferential in your treatment of your preferences over the preferences of others.

Originally Posted by Igzy

If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't be trying to correct anyone yourself. If you do then your last post is superfluous

But I'm not trying to correct anyone... Just point them towards what I know are the things of Christ/the way of God... According to scripture... Everyone is responsible for themselves.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think you can categorize the LCM authority abuses under the heading of "Oh, no one's perfect."

I never tried to... And don't need to... According to scripture... There's more than enough on my own plate to keep me busy for many, many years... And from what I understand from scripture... That goes for just about everyone.