The local church, the Work and the New Testament Ministry

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. What work of ministry is the Church in Cleveland affiliated with?

Drake

Joyce Meyer?

How would I know?

I left Cleveland forty years ago.

[aron]

To go back to the "proper local church" and "proper NT ministry" idea, I have not read any books on "Jesus as CEO" or "Jesus leadership seminar" ideas. I'm sure there are many, some good, some not so good.

But my thoughts in passing are this: in warfare one wants to be predictable to one's allies, and unpredictable to one's foes. Jesus as commander of the troops, was surrounded by foes. Often those closest to him were not trustworthy.

So when you see him move in the gospels, he does so with fluidity. He assembled the thousands in companies of hundreds and fifties, and set ones over them. Then he broke the bread and had it passed down in strict hierarchy. And it worked just great. Everybody ate. Then he "fired" the company. He broke it up. It became fluid again.

Now, on earth we typically do the opposite. We become rigid, inflexible, and are easy prey for the enemy. The LSM model is quite rigid, and was easily penetrated and overcome by the enemy influences. It became an organization, successful in replicating itself, but unsuccessful in replicating Jesus' work.

Suppose Jesus had did-assembled the throng, post-meal, and one of those whom he'd set over the fifties or hundreds continued to "lord" it over the rest. "Don't you know that I am the one whom Jesus gave the food to, to feed you? You'd better pay attention to me!" That person's 'ministry' just became bankrupt.

In order to cooperate with the Lord, you have to be willing to sit at the end of the "hundred" or be the one passing out the bread and fish. One day you may be in one place, one day in another. If you set up a rigid structure you'll be easily overcome. It may work for you, or seem to - once, twice, but ultimately you have an empty shell, with no reality. And those who insist on holding the shell become the chief obstacle to the Lord's work. Because it is his 'ekklesia', his work.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

So when you see Jesus move in the gospels, he does so with fluidity. He assembled the thousands in companies of hundreds and fifties, and set ones over them. . . .Then he "fired" the company. He broke it up. It became fluid again..

Contrast this to what we too often see in practise. A certain group that I have familiarity with, which I won't mention by name because in a certain country they may persecute members, had a special chair for its leader, whom I shall call "Brother X". Everybody sat in vinyl chairs but Brother X up front had the stuffed leather chair. I saw people after the meeting, standing by Brother X's empty chair, taking photos of themselves standing by it. One young girl even sat in the chair, to the nervous gaiety of the onlookers. Such boldness!

Now this particular organisational system was set up where Brother X always had to be right. Even when he was wrong, he was right. So if he made a mistake, for example, and put a close family member over the flock, and the abuse inevitably started, and the presence of the Holy Spirit left, too bad. Because we were rigid, and "Brother X is always right." Or if he said something about the Bible that we didn't like, too bad. "Brother X is always right."

It is completely predictable, like a toy in the enemy's hands. Whatever happens, Brother X is always right.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Joyce Meyer?

How would I know?

I left Cleveland forty years ago.

okay..... then it appears from their website that they affiliate with Titus Chu (no surprise there), T. Austin Sparks, and Watchman Nee... and they link to LSM for the latter.

The teachings of Watchman Nee define everything that I have been sharing here... the local churches, the ground of the local churches, the work of ministry, all of it is straight out of those pages of The Normal Christian Church Life, Further Talks on the Church Life, and Church Affairs.

If the Church in Cleveland is, as you say, a true local church, in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee, then so is every other church in that same mold. And they would also disagree with your contention that the "Church of Christ" denomination and the congregationalist Gospel Community Church are true local churches. if they are consistent. Given that perhaps you wish to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb also?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

If the Church in Cleveland is, as you say, a true local church, in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee, then so is every other church in that same mold. And they would also disagree with your contention that the "Church of Christ" denomination and the congregationalist Gospel Community Church are true local churches. if they are consistent. Given that perhaps you wish to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb also?

Drake

I never said that a a true local church is "in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee." WN changed his definitions over time like the creeds of the early church. Where convenient, Nee loved strict adherence to scripture, but where not advantageous, he charted his own course.

Neither do either of us know that the Church in Cleveland would object to my "Church of Christ" brothers up the road, who are not a denomination as you say, nor my elderly Gospel Community Church brothers and sisters who are struggling to care for one another in love after one family's house burnt down overnight, and he is now hospitalized.

One thing about you, Drake, you seem to know everything about everyone else, but nothing about LSM. That's called prejudice, a pre-judgment about others whom you don't even know.

Why is it you keep dodging the comparison between Lee and Paul's writing of II Corinthians?

[Drake]

-1

Ohio,

I didn’t say you said that. You said the Church in Cleveland is a true local church. I asked what work of ministry they are affiliated with and you said you did not know. I said from their web the ministries they reference are Titus Chu, T. A. Sparks, and Watchman Nee. The Watchman Nee link physically connects the reader back to the Living Stream Ministry website.Then I said everything I have been discussing here comes from the three books by Watchman Nee concerning the ground of the church and the work of ministry is found on that LSM website. So then, it was I that said if the Church in Cleveland is a true local church so are the others that came from that same ministry, the same mold, that the Church in Cleveland came from. I then asked you if you wanted to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb since they reference the same ministry that produced the local churches you said were false local churches.

That same ministry shed light that the denominations are sin and Congregationalism is unscriptural. Therefore, the Church in Cleveland, by commending the reader to the teachings of Watchman Nee would certainly strongly suggest that the Church of Christ, a denomination, and the community church you mentioned are not a true local church. This does not mean you should turn a blind eye to the suffering of those brothers and sisters. You obviously were touched by their suffering and I am sure you and the christians you meet with will do everything possible to help them.

As far as 2 Corinthians please feel free to take them one by one..... make your case and I will respond in kind. I don’t agree with what you said but I don’t know what your argument is for those because you have not made one. I will respond to your arguments.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Would anyone like to unravel this doublespeak lawyering gibberish for me?

I'm sure we have some bright folks out there.

Let me get this straight. LSM spent months and dozens of booklets convincing their little world that the CinCleve was fit for a Whistler quarantine, and now this same CinCleve website proves that the only true LC's are those with LSM?

Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, etc. It has nothing to do with some website links. If your criteria was correct, then any collection of people on earth with a savvy web designer and a couple of links could constitute a "true local church."

Did Jesus really say "I will build my church with good websites and the correct links."

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

I didn’t say you said that. You said the Church in Cleveland is a true local church...

Drake, do you consider the Church in Cleveland a "true local church"?

[Drake]

Ohio>”Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, et”

Ohio, it is called summarizing for the benefit of the listeners, not lawyering. It is part of a sensible discourse. It also gives you the opportunity to identify where we saw the dialogue differently. Not it’s conclusions but the course.

According to the definition you provided above the local churches you called false are not false at all.

Drake

[Ohio]

If a ministry peddles the word of God are they a "true ministry."

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, et”

Ohio, it is called summarizing for the benefit of the listeners, not lawyering. It is part of a sensible discourse. It also gives you the opportunity to identify where we saw the dialogue differently. Not it’s conclusions but the course.

According to the definition you provided above the local churches you called false are not false at all.

Drake

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?