The local church, the Work and the New Testament Ministry

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unlike you, we have lived in the LC system for decades. WE KNOW THEY ARE FOLLOWING A MAN. They told us they were. We know his name. We watched elders follow him contrary to the Lord and their own conscience.

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better. We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him. Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?" And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits? Just because he did it.

Ohio,

I believe you when you say you followed a man. That is the problem. And now, because you followed a man you think everyone else does too. You were disappointed and do not understand why everyone else doesn't see it as you do.

Therefore, perhaps you have never known what it is to follow the anointing, a vision, or the Spirit's leading. For if you had, then I am sure you would also allow that when Steel or I say we do not follow a man then you would not object to the concept.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I believe you when you say you followed a man. That is the problem. And now, because you followed a man you think everyone else does too. You were disappointed and do not understand why everyone else doesn't see it as you do.

Therefore, perhaps you have never known what it is to follow the anointing, a vision, or the Spirit's leading. For if you had, then I am sure you would also allow that when Steel or I say we do not follow a man then you would not object to the concept.

Drake

Wait a minute. It was WL who said he followed a man. He boasted in following Nee. Many of the Blendeds likewise have boasted in following Lee. So you are now claiming to be some spiritual outlier?

I do for a fact that Midwest LC's had more liberties than others did. You can tell me about "not" following Lee or the Blendeds, but I know better. And I know the games that are played in the Recovery by calling it all "fellowship."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wait a minute. It was WL who said he followed a man. He boasted in following Nee. Many of the Blendeds likewise have boasted in following Lee. So you are now claiming to be some spiritual outlier?

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

Right.

And yet, such an important practice and teaching should be documented. I'd like to read it in context. Must be there. Really.

Let's see it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. And yet, such an important practice and teaching should be documented. I'd like to read it in context. Must be there. Really. Let's see it.

As far as "documentation" is concerned, you need to take that up with your superiors at LSM. Remember the testimony of Bill Mallon? He was castigated just for copying his notes of a message in the training.

LSM permits no recording of their meetings, and seriously edits their publications. They have signs on the walls saying no recording devices. So it is quite disingenuous of you to demand any kind of "documentation" from me.

This has always been the kind of "defense" surrogates at LSM use to protect themselves against eyewitnesses who cry out for justice. It's kind of like the defense attorneys in a trial demanding "documentation" from the eye witnesses -- "show me a video, show me a book, show me picture."

Hi Drake, do you, or have you ever, worked for, written for, or ever assisted the Defense and Confirmation Project of the Living Stream Ministry?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

I've heard Ron Kangas and Dan Towle (at least) say defiantly in meetings that they are "not ashamed to say they follow a man--Witness Lee."

But where is it printed? Why didn't they print it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I've heard Ron Kangas and Dan Towle (at least) say defiantly in meetings that they are "not ashamed to say they follow a man--Witness Lee."

But where is it printed? Why didn't they print it?

I heard similar comments from Ed Marks and Francis Ball. These things were not said by accident, rather these Blended Brothers were proud and happy to boast in following Witness Lee.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

How about this?

Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age
Chapter 33
...I consider Watchman Nee to be a unique gift given by the Head to His Body for His recovery in this age. I fully respect him as such a gift. I have the full confidence and assurance that it was absolutely of the Lord that I followed this gift for the Lord's interest in His present move on this earth. I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man --a man that was the unique gift and the seer of the divine visions in this age.

How about the letter of allegiance to Witness Lee in 1986?

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How about this?

Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age
Chapter 33
...I consider Watchman Nee to be a unique gift given by the Head to His Body for His recovery in this age. I fully respect him as such a gift. I have the full confidence and assurance that it was absolutely of the Lord that I followed this gift for the Lord's interest in His present move on this earth. I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man --a man that was the unique gift and the seer of the divine visions in this age.

How about the letter of allegiance to Witness Lee in 1986?

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice.

Good examples, alb.

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ. Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good examples, alb.

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ. Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

Drake, you equivocate here (as usual.) No one is saying that you should not believe or follow the teachings of WL from the Bible that Jesus is Lord, our Savior, etc. under the anointing of the Spirit. All LC members have the liberty to do that.

But when WL covers up immorality, abuse, financial crimes, etc. of high ranking officials and family members in his ministry, and the Blended Brothers are still following a man, then we have problems here. These brothers then were forced to decide between Lee's words and the teachings of the Bible, and decide between Lee himself and the Lord Jesus.

And these bad choices thrust upon the body of Christ were what led decent men of God like John Ingalls to leave.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, you equivocate here (as usual.) No one is saying that you should not believe or follow the teachings of WL from the Bible that Jesus is Lord, our Savior, etc. under the anointing of the Spirit. All LC members have the liberty to do that.

But when WL covers up immorality, abuse, financial crimes, etc. of high ranking officials and family members in his ministry, and the Blended Brothers are still following a man, then we have problems here. These brothers then were forced to decide between Lee's words and the teachings of the Bible, and decide between Lee himself and the Lord Jesus.

And these bad choices thrust upon the body of Christ were what led decent men of God like John Ingalls to leave.

Ohio,

Let's see where we agree and where we disagree.

Your post above suggests that you agree there was an anointing in Brother Lee's teachings and that to follow those is fine with you as it is with me.

Your objection concerns how the situation with PL was handled by Brother Lee and the leaders in the Lord's Recovery. You believe that how that was handled caused decent men like John Ingalls to leave.

Agree with that summary so far?

If so, where we part company is what you and I apparently do with that information. You had expectations and your disappointment caused you to leave. Perhaps you were a decent man also and could not tolerate what you deemed mishandling and/or unrighteous behavior. On the other hand, I do not place my trust in man, any man, and do not follow a man. When I say I follow the anointing I mean an anointing applied not an anointing in the air. Of course, the gifts given to the Body are anointed but it is not necessarily permanent. It is wrong to think once anointed always anointed.

Using Aaron's rod as an example, it was a dead stick in and of itself. Yet, because God selected Aaron his rod issued a manifestation of life with blossoms. Everyone who saw Aaron's rod knew by its budding he was selected by God. Apart from that Aaron was just a dead dog, a dead stick, like every person with a rod sitting next to his. As we all are. Aaron's ministry and service was based on the resurrection life (indicated in the budding of his rod). Was Aaron perfect? No, not at all. Did he makes mistakes? Yes, he did and one cost him the entry into the land of Canaan and he died on Mt. Hor never entering in. This was the Lord's judgement, yet his error did not negate his ministry and his son Eleazar carried it forward afterward. Same with Moses, his mistake of not sanctifying God in front of the assembly by striking the rock in anger prevented his entry into the good land... and yet, the water still flowed forth meaning the consequences of his mistake did not negate his ministry though it did affect his reward of the good land.

These two examples convey my thoughts as applied to this topic in this way. First, for me, and my experience, the hundreds of books and thousands of messages full of resurrection life are the budding of the rod. I do not look at the stick... I look at the life issuing from the otherwise dead stick. Secondly, in spite of mistakes, mishandling, errors in judgement, nevertheless water still flowed from the rock. I focus on the water flowing from the rock and God will judge the servant and how that servant represented God or not. Through God's servant the children of Israel were delivered from Egypt, the commandments were given, they were led into successful battle, they were supplied manna and water for forty years.. and though he made a mistake is striking the rock in anger, water still flowed.... but, does his error in judgement negate all his service? No, it did not. Some things are better left to God's righteous hand. Let Him judge his own. Follow the budding rod on the water from the Rock.

That is where we differ, Ohio. Please share your thoughts.

Drake

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Drake

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

If only this were true of believers who are yet to be fully perfected... Even Paul undersood the pitfall of this thinking, and even spoke to it in his speaking in his 1 Corinthians epistles.

After seeing the Lord in His glory... Isaiah saw the true condition of himself... And this is the way we should all take, so as not to think we are more able than we actually are.

Originally Posted by Drake

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

Yes... But scripture doesn't tell us to look away unto "...men..." . . . And scripture doesn't tell us to behold and reflect "...men..." . . . No matter if they are a gift of God to men.

Doesn't scripture tells us that it is better humble ourselves and think that we are not able, than to think we are able in ourselves.

Originally Posted by Drake

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ.

No.

(Sorry, UntoHim... But my above response required its own line for emphasis.)

We have been given the Spirit within us for the purpose of being built up in Christ so that the corporate body may be built up in and through the building up of Christ in us by the Spirit.

The work of the ministry — which includes those who minister this ministry — is to turn us to our regenerated spirit so that we realize what God has already accomplished within us... And that we are able/empowered in and through what God has accomplished within us — in our regenerated spirit... To be built up with this reality in our human faculties (our soul... mind, emotion, will)... So that we can outwardly expressed this reality in our daily living and being as we go through our earthly life.

I have no interest whatsoever in seeing/following Witness Lee, or any other man... I only want to see and follow the Lord... And to do that, according to scripture... I only need to see, follow, and realize the Lord... And I absolutely exhort others to take the same way.

Originally Posted by Drake

Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

That, unfortunately, sounds a bit like what Witness Lee said is the reality found in the growing of a beard.