God's economy vs Deputy authority

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When you respond with "righteous indignation" it indicates that you did not know. It may well be that some knew, but clearly it is not right to say "they all knew". The ones who knew beforehand would be the ones with some mealy mouthed justification for immoral actions. They try to justify the acts because they are afraid that any objection will ultimately lead to the discovery that they were complicit in the crime.

So I exaggerate a little. Incidentally, your comments here go to my point --

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, that is the bottom line. However, if you look solely at the ministry of WL and WN prior to 1980 it is conceivable to have operated under the assumption that the LRC was aspiring to live by the Biblical version of authority. There were very few events that could expose the lie. The events with JI, WL and PL in the 1980s put that to the test and since then I think it has become less and less conceivable to live under this illusion. Because JI was well known to all, and was closely associated with both WL and LSM I think it should have forced many saints to examine the events.

My whole experience is post-1980's events. And I know you see this as a kind of demarcating line. But the further you peel back the onion...before the 80's, there was MR, before MR, there was Daystar, before Daystar there was the Seattle World's Fair. And throughout all of this, there were migrations, consolidations...again, didn't Witness Lee handpick elders in the 70's in localities other than Anaheim and Irving? Not to mention that the Recovery idea of "deputy authority" was already being preached. By the time you get to 1986, it's all baked into the cake.

In 1984, Madonna sang Like A Virgin. Ten years earlier, Witness Lee said, "The saints lost their virginity." I have a lot of difficulty seeing leaders like John Ingalls as naive virgins in the post-Madonna Recovery. Just like I have a lot of difficulty seeing LSM's current spokespeople as ignorant of the things of which we speak publicly here on the Internet.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=6298

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But I was really more interested in hearing your response to my other post...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

But I was really more interested in hearing your response to my other post...

I did respond to that post, but my response is not here, I don't know what happened to it. Basically I said a better analogy would be for a soldier in Afghanistan. One person could see that GW Bush had a big influence in his life, but others could say that it really wasn't GW but Osama that started the war, and still others are arguing that the engineering evidence cannot possibly be explained by airplanes crashing into the towers so they are blaming a "Gulf of Tonkin" like event.

But if you ask the soldier he may say that Bush had very little to do with his life, he didn't enlist because of him, nor did he ever fellowship with him, etc. He may be much more focused on the experiences he had and the people he knew.

I also went into detail that to give credit to WL for the building of the Irving hall is to completely trivialize the contribution of those that donated the money, time, labor, hospitality, etc. that resulted in that hall being built. Also, that 18 months was an amazing experience in every way. PL's sins do not in any way tarnish the experience.

As to JI being knowledgeable I would have no idea, I didn't know him, I was only in one conference he shared. When I speak about the recovery in generic terms like "it was possible to be in the LC and think that you aspired to the Biblical principles" JI and other "leaders" are never in my consideration. I am always considering my personal experience and the saints I knew first hand.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I also went into detail that to give credit to WL for the building of the Irving hall is to completely trivialize the contribution of those that donated the money, time, labor, hospitality, etc. that resulted in that hall being built. Also, that 18 months was an amazing experience in every way. PL's sins do not in any way tarnish the experience.

Let's imagine for the moment that the pyramids were not in fact built by aliens. That they actually were built by slaves, chiseled like Rambo, hauling those stones up there.

To say that the king built the pyramids would be to trivialize the tremendous sacrifice of the men who actually built the things.

But to say that those men did not build the pyramids for the king, on behalf of the king, to deny that, would simply be denial.

Er, da Nile.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Let's imagine for the moment that the pyramids were not in fact built by aliens. That they actually were built by slaves, chiseled like Rambo, hauling those stones up there.

To say that the king built the pyramids would be to trivialize the tremendous sacrifice of the men who actually built the things.

But to say that those men did not build the pyramids for the king, on behalf of the king, to deny that, would simply be denial.

Er, da Nile.

I have already conceded that is a valid viewpoint, just like Fox News has a valid viewpoint. It doesn't mean that their viewpoint is the same as for a soldier on the ground. By the way, if alien's didn't build the pyramids why isn't there soot on the walls? Assuming they couldn't see in the pitch dark, what did they use for light if it wasn't a torch that leaves soot on the walls?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have already conceded that is a valid viewpoint, just like Fox News has a valid viewpoint. It doesn't mean that their viewpoint is the same as for a soldier on the ground. By the way, if alien's didn't build the pyramids why isn't there soot on the walls? Assuming they couldn't see in the pitch dark, what did they use for light if it wasn't a torch that leaves soot on the walls?

I thought Israel built them while in captivity.

[UntoHim]

Sorry guys, call me a stick in the mud...
But I'm going to have to ask that we not get into all the aliens, pyramids and soot on the wall stuff. There are all sorts of Internet forums to discuss these kind of things. Please...let's just stick with the subject at hand.
Thank you.
Signed,
your beloved but unappreciated inglorious topiq nazi

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

By the way, if alien's didn't build the pyramids why isn't there soot on the walls? Assuming they couldn't see in the pitch dark, what did they use for light if it wasn't a torch that leaves soot on the walls?

The aliens didn't build the pyramids, but the Egyptians used a non-soot producing light source which was left behind by the aliens.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I have a lot of difficulty seeing leaders like John Ingalls as naive virgins in the post-Madonna Recovery. Just like I have a lot of difficulty seeing LSM's current spokespeople as ignorant of the things of which we speak publicly here on the Internet.

The whole church in Anaheim was in an uproar over what happened with the LSM "Office" manager. Even though you have a "lot of difficulty" understanding this, obviously lots of good folks within earshot of Ball Road were not privy to all of LSM's happenings.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The whole church in Anaheim was in an uproar over what happened with the LSM "Office" manager. Even though you have a "lot of difficulty" understanding this, obviously lots of good folks within earshot of Ball Road were not privy to all of LSM's happenings.

I don't see it as an all or nothing, black and white thing. Surely there are things that happened, that you and I aren't privy to even now. And it's probably better that way. But you've shared things that went on, extra-local manipulations and the like, that raised red flags -- or should have -- years before you left.

It makes me feel numb that I didn't free myself from this religious system 5-7 years earlier than I did.

As a famous man from ZNP's city once sang, a man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I don't see it as an all or nothing, black and white thing. Surely there are things that happened, that you and I aren't privy to even now. And it's probably better that way. But you've shared things that went on, extra-local manipulations and the like, that raised red flags -- or should have -- years before you left.

Not concerning WL.

What I have learned started with that Bereans forum, about 30 years after I first heard about WL.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not concerning WL.

What I have learned started with that Bereans forum, about 30 years after I first heard about WL.

Even this?

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's what they did with those cheap "gold" chairs.

WL told TC that "you just bought a thousand."

TC told us in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Even this?

I never learned that on the forum.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

It makes me feel numb that I didn't free myself from this religious system 5-7 years earlier than I did.

Don't beat yourself up about it. You were probably still getting something out of it. I'm sure some good came out of it.

Regrets are a waste of time. Look ahead with a positive attitude.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't beat yourself up about it. You were probably still getting something out of it. I'm sure some good came out of it.
Regrets are a waste of time. Look ahead with a positive attitude.

Oh I was getting something out of it, that's for sure. You really have no idea.

And beating yourself up's not so bad, so long as you feel numb afterwards...

[UntoHim]

Old guy who doesn’t have time to worry about sarcasim:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't beat yourself up about it. You were probably still getting something out of it. I'm sure some good came out of it.
Regrets are a waste of time. Look ahead with a positive attitude.

Younger guy who knows this but has enough time to worry about sarcasim:

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Oh I was getting something out of it, that's for sure. You really have no idea.
And beating yourself up's not so bad, so long as you feel numb afterwards...

Yikes…maybe aliens, pyaramids and soot are on topic afterall.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yikes…maybe aliens, pyramids and soot are on topic after all.

Takes a while ... perhaps a long while ... but you're finally coming around.