Last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Perhaps I should have begun with this: “processed,” “added” and all this language can cause God’s beautiful work to be morphed into a “science of dispensing.” It can divert attention from God’s pivotal redemptive act and reduce His desire to walk with us to a process of “intake.” This is an important caution. Keep repeating it over and again. Please.

But the historical fact that some people have been sucked in by a language and an unhealthy emphasis does not automatically negate any and all things they saw as truth in the Word.

I don’t believe I said anything about this negating other things that are true. I think that the reason we must discuss this topic and its “sucking in language” (which includes the term “processed”) with its unhealthy emphases, is because the devil is able to use any deviation from the truth to secure a hiding place or a base of operation in the hearer’s thinking. Any such deviation from truth needs to be pinned down, exposed, and expunged.

The processed Triune God is one of the pillars of Lee’s teachings. Just as Nigel Tomes has recently re-examined Lee's "Satanology," this topic also needs to be deconstructed and the chaff discarded. I am in no way saying I have done or can do this, but I have picked up my shovel. This is a big mountain and it's going to take all our shovels. Some of us have been chewing on this bone for a long time now (on the other forum). Thankfully, God is our Helper to do this. He said that if we seek we shall find. I am seeking the truth about this teaching and I think I’ve reached the knocking stage.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Why didn’t God just go ahead and redeem us, without sending His Son? Was He incapable and “inadequate”? Why was Jesus tempted by the devil before He could be the worthy Lamb? Was He “inadequate” or was that episode just for our reading pleasure?

I’ll go further: why the need for the re-birth? Why wasn’t Christ’s death on the Cross sufficient? It gave me access back to God just as Enoch had. With the Scripture, I also have the Word of God which contains the pattern of Christ, which I can imitate. Why the need for re-birth by the Spirit? And, by the way, in that re-birth, who indwells me? The Spirit or Christ? Or the Spirit of Christ? Or the….

For the record, these aren’t just questions in the wind. The Word has some things to say about them – even if it leaves some things a mystery. Asking these questions doesn’t require creating a “science of God.” It doesn’t require everything to be reduced to little morsels to “intake”. Lee can still be wrong, even if there is something to “humanity” being “added” to God (but really, there needs to be a more Scriptural articulation)

Peter, the slippery slope I was referring to was that of teaching anything that makes the I AM sound like the “I WILL BE” or the I USED TO BE BEFORE I BECAME ... All the questions you posed are related to what God DID for us and how we experience that, not who He IS.

I agree that there needs to be good, spiritual, articulation of all the things we believe about Christ’s redemptive work, and this is not just for mental apprehension in itself, but so that our walks with God and our experience with Him can be helped. How we think about something controls our behavior. (As a man thinketh, so is He.) If we have wrong thoughts (beliefs) about God and how He relates to us and we to Him, this will affect our experience.

Honestly, I believe this is the very reason that the devil has carefully constructed this monstrosity of Lee theology that we tangle with daily like some kind of a killer tar-baby. He wants nothing more than to frustrate our walks with God. His way is to infiltrate Christian teachings with false beliefs, which have been introduced in a way that sound like the truth. (Go back to the garden of Eden for his M.O.) If you want to do case studies in frustrated walks with God, the LC has produced boatloads of such cases. I am involved with one of the most heartbreaking I have seen in a long time right now. They believed and practiced Lee’s processed Triune God teachings, but I can assure you they did not exhibit Christ’s “uplifted humanity.”

I may not be able to understand or explain the ins and outs of new birth, but I believe I have been born again. My deadened spirit has been made alive to God. I am able to walk with Him in an intimate way. I can hear his voice and follow Him. In so doing, I am supplied by His Spirit (who by the way is the same Spirit who walked with Enoch.) We are different from Enoch in that we have been set free from the penalty of sin by believing in the redemptive work while we are still on the earth; however, I think Enoch got the same benefit from believing the promise of God’s salvation that was foretold. He found grace in the eyes of the Lord and God took him. I believe Enoch’s God is the same as ours. I don’t think we got an upgraded model. (No offense meant by this language, that's just an easy way to say it.)

What do you think Christ had that Enoch’s God did not? Ability to sympathize? He had that before He came, we just couldn’t understand this without Him showing us. This wasn’t some newly acquired ability. Longsuffering? Meekness? Gentleness? Love? Joy? Peace? He had all these and showed us He did. One point I can think of is that the Bible says He learned “obedience.” However, I don’t think this means He didn’t have the ability to obey, but He had never had to use His obedience before in the way He did as a man in the flesh.

Just what about Jesus had to be “added” that wasn’t already there when God said “I AM?”

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

And, importantly, asking these questions, and finding some tentative answers in the Word does not necessarily create a slippery slope (e.g. “if you believe that, what’s next – there’s no telling what you’ll end up believing” – as your post implies). Our inquiry is governed by the Word. I believe something because I believe the Word teaches it. Yes, I still have many many years of being Lee-colored glasses to wrestle with, but God has been faithful to show me that I can be freed from those glasses and return to His word. So, the notion that my beliefs will be unrestrained if I “open a door,” is not fair – they will be restrained because the Word circumscribes my inquiries – even when I stray now and again.

I meant “no telling what you will end up believing” about who God is and what has been added to Him, not about every other truth in the Bible.

One problem with Lee’s teaching about the LGS is that it has the potential to leave people with a wrong understanding about how to walk with God. It leads down a path where people lose sight of the fact that they are free moral agents in their walk with God.

Lee’s teaching that Christ’s “uplifted humanity” has been added to the Spirit sets the stage for the devil to deceive us about something very crucial to our experience and that is: how to live the Christian life... Lee says it is by two methods of eating and drinking the LGS and receiving His essence with all these ingredients. Then, automatically uplifted humanity is ours! Wow. Sounds good. But, Lee’s teaching leaves out very crucial things: our freedom to choose and our need to interact with Him personally with meaningful communication.

Will Christ live in us? Yes, but not like some kind of a robot on automatic pilot. Our proper human living does not come as a result of some simple switch on and off methodology. Proper (godly) human living develops as we walk with Him in an interactive way, through untold numbers of conversations with Him, learning at first like a child drinking the milk of the Word and gradually growing to maturity where we learn from the meat of the Word as ones whose senses have been exercised to discern between good and evil. Our mind is key. Our will is key. Satan doesn’t want these parts of our being involved with God.

The Spirit teaches us and directs us, but we have to choose to believe and follow. When we do the Spirit supplies us with the ability to walk accordingly. Healthy teaching will not leave out our conscious part in this.

Lee’s saturation theology omits healthy teaching about our part. It presents us with the Spirit that has all the “proper humanity” we need which can do it all for us if we just take in the Spirit's "essence" and are "organically constituted" with all the ingredients in this compound Spirit. The very closeness of this truth to the biblical truth that Christ is our life is what is so deadly. Christ is our life as we walk and talk with Him and He with us through His Word, not as we get soaked with His essence apart from real interactions with Him about real things.

In the way I just described, Lee’s teaching has the potential to remove the idea of personal accountability. In other words, if we don’t make it to live such a life, then it will be because the Spirit didn’t do his job of living His proper humanity in us.

I regularly hear a brother still under the after effects of Lee’s teaching (after 15+ years, and not my husband in case any wonder J), say exactly this. He says at the judgment seat if he isn’t different it will be Christ’s fault. He doesn’t see himself as a free moral agent and doesn’t believe that his choice (will) plays a part in his progress towards the judgment seat. He believes He needs “life” to do it for him. He calls (moans) on the Lord, so that should be giving Him what He needs. If it doesn’t happen, well it’s not his fault.

All of this seems far away from the discussion about the LGS, but it isn’t. It’s where the rubber meets the road. I don't feel like I have good utterance for what I am trying to share, but you know me by now, I will keep on trying. I am not crystal clear about all of this (obviously) but I am much more in the light than I used to be.

I have not thought one bit about needing to receive the processed Triune God in the past 15 years. Instead, I have had many conversations with Him about matters in hand. He's been talking and I've been learning to listen. I love Him, not ideas about Him. I've seen Him at work in lives around me in amazing ways and have been reduced to tears of thankfulness many times.

I am not here on this forum to win arguments (yeah, right, you say ...). I really don't care about that. I am here to punch the devil in the nose by the word (what I have learned that I can speak) of my testimony.

I mean no offense to your dear Peter, or anyone, not even Paul M.

Thankful Jane

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

....I am not here on this forum to win arguments (yeah, right, you say ...). I really don't care about that. I am here to punch the devil in the nose by the word (what I have learned that I can speak) of my testimony.

I mean no offense to your dear Peter, or anyone, not even Paul M.

Thankful Jane

Dear Jane:

There is no offense. I love these opportunities to be challenged and to challenge, to go too far and not far enough, to get called out and to call out - all through which God finds a way to teach us.

I have a number of thoughts in response to your probing posts, but I must attend to the my little gal... Will respond later.

Peter

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Dear Jane:

There is no offense. I love these opportunities to be challenged and to challenge, to go too far and not far enough, to get called out and to call out - all through which God finds a way to teach us.

I have a number of thoughts in response to your probing posts, but I must attend to the my little gal... Will respond later.

Peter

That's good. Thanks for telling me you aren't offended.

No need to rush to respond. I need a good break from all this meat laden fare . That little daughter of yours comes first!

Thankful Jane

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

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One problem with Lee’s teaching about the LGS is that it has the potential to leave people with a wrong understanding about how to walk with God. It leads down a path where people lose sight of the fact that they are free moral agents in their walk with God.


Thankful Jane

Some disjointed thoughts in response:

Every truth has two sides. Experience can cause us to come down more heavily on one side versus the other. My experience has cause me to come down heavily on both sides – at different times – and thus I am continually open for the Lord to caution me, to redirect (and that, often through others).

I want to relate a quick story that ties in with what you have said here about our free agency:

About two years ago I had a brief correspondence with one of the BBs. I wrote with many searching questions. He responded with a lengthy and tender response. But one of the things he said in his reply was “I sense some angst in your tone.”

I was immediately offended, but after much consideration before the Lord, I realized he was right. I was FULL of angst. Not “angst” in the black-wearing, Mohawk-having, rebellious-for-its-own-sake sort of teenage “angst” – but rather in the sense of “angst” spoken of by Soren Kierkegaard: a deep-rooted spiritual condition of fearing one is failing in his responsibilities to God. It is a condition unique to free beings.

I have felt this angst in two separate directions – one which mirrors the emphasis that you bring and one which cuts the other way.

First, I felt as though so many of the teachings – particularly those related to deputy authority etc… - had stolen my individual accountability to God –or actually, that I had freely handed it over to others. I had lost my personal accountability and relationship with God. I have said before, as you do now, one of the biggest detriments of many of the LC teachings and practices is that it trains a believer to hand over his/her responsibility and accountability to God.

The other sort of “angst” is really just that condition of which Paul speaks in Romans 7: the deep sense that you utterly cannot do it. You know God’s requirements, you think that you are putting your whole person into them, and you do the exact opposite. So debilitiating.

Have you ever read Nee’s “The Overcoming Life”? I can’t read it. I am such a wretched Christian when I read it. I know too well my lack, my weakness, my failings. My inabilities to love, to forebear. My conscience slaps me around daily. And I can’t change. Perhaps I am one of the derelicts God just can’t work with…

In the midst of this angst, I cannot tell you the encouragement that comes from knowing that the Spirit that indwells is the same God who lived the human life in the midst of the same limitations and weaknesses that befall me. Christ went through all of those experiences, not just so that he could have “standing” before the Father as our advocate, and not just so that we could read about Him and imitate His example. I can’t just “imitate.” I don’t know how to pull myself up by my bootstraps. Fortunately, it is not I, but Christ who lives in me! This does not absolve me of accountability and engagement with God in this life He has given me. On the contrary, He calls and I respond. But it is His Son in me that responds. I must work out my own salvation. But He is both the willing and the working.

It is important for my subjective going-on (if only because I have a weak faith), to know that the power of the Spirit who indwells me is the power of One who has experienced the limitations and weaknesses which constrict me but who prevailed nonetheless.

I can believe all of this and still reject the mechanistic “eating” teaching which can steal away a believers individual relationship and responsibility to God.

It really shouldn’t be a secret for any of us whether we are failing our responsibility to God. It is know – not by the underlying doctrines – but by the fruits. I’ve held correct doctrines, but misapplied them in my life. The fruit? None. There have been times when Lee-style “eating” has filled me with a joy that just emminated. Most of the time, it is the constant interaction with God – real questions, opening up, considering, reading His word thoughtfully and with questions to Him – which produce good fruit in my life. Knowing what the fruits should be is a lot like the law which convicts. When our life is not full of fruits (I don’t mean in any narrow sense) – that is opportunity to return to Him, to question, to let Him expose our hearts, our practices, our assumptions about Him. Insodoing, He does transform me – by the indwelling of the One who has already done it.

None of that requires nor refutes Lee’s “eating” doctrines. The “processed God” stuff and the “eating” doctrines are separate.

I have no problem dropping the terminology. But there is an identity between the Spirit and Christ which goes further than traditional “person” distinctions: one which explains that, though it is the Spirit that indwells me, I can still be assured that the One who indwells me is the same one who was able to obey God regardless of the limitations, weaknesses and temptations of the human life. That is the One who fulfills God’s requirements, not me. And He does so as I live my life with Him, not simply through "mechanisms" and "intake".

I have more thoughts, but I think that's enough for now. Grace to you,

Peter